Saddam Hussein killed between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqis from 1979

[Bouncy Ball]

to 2003. That's 24 years. So, on average, between 6250 and 14,166 per year.

We invaded and attacked Iraq on March 19, 2003, and have been there ever since, for a total of just over 21 months. In that time, the British medical journal Lancet has estimated we have killed approximately 98,000 Iraqi civilians (this does not include Iraqi soldiers fighting against the US, but only civilians).

That averages out, if we assume 24 months instead of 21, to 49,000 civilians per year that we have killed.

This is a recent article in Time with more information.
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,933405,00.html

Everytime I hear someone try to justify our actions in Iraq by mentioning Saddam Hussein's atrocities to the Iraqis, I nod. I do not try to dismiss them; they were heinous.

But our atrocities seem to be far worse. At this rate, in just 12-14 more months, we will MATCH the lower number of Iraqis killed by Hussein in 24 years. Three years to kill as many as he did in 24 years. Both actions are wrong. Hussein was wrong to kill his own people, to torment and oppress the Iraqi people. He was a harsh dictator, to make an understatement.

But we who call ourselves the beacon of freedom and independence have caused more death and misery in a shorter time than Hussein could have ever imagined.

Who is the bad guy now?

(Feel free to email the body of this text to anyone you feel needs a little eye-opening exercise....)

[tx_dem41]

1. Can't we condemn both atrocities without trying to say that "this

atrocity is worse than that atrocity"??

It just seems like moral relativism that can have unintended consequences (such as seeming to justify an atrocity).

[Bouncy Ball]

4. Of course.

The ONLY reasons I feel our atrocities are worse are two-fold:

1. We invaded and attacked Iraq (leading to all these civilian deaths) under the pretense that they were a threat to us. That was a lie.

2. We are supposedly a shining example of freedom and humanity and rights, something Hussein never pretended to be. Which means we are giant hypocrites of the nth degree.

(By "we" I mean the elected officials of the current US government.)

Also on edit, I said NOTHING to justify Hussein's atrocities. In fact, I acknowledged their horror. He was Bad with a capital B, we are worse. Just take a look at the numbers.

[spooked911]

18. You've nailed it, as far as I 'm concerned

[spooked911]

19. You've nailed it, as far as I 'm concerned

there doesn't seem to be an emoticon that fits here!

[klyon]

42. we are worse with a capital W

KL

Just being helpful.

[Mika]

44. The US installed Saddam isn't the US therefore responsible for all?

We played both sides of any conflict that Iraq had.

Either with the US, Kuwait, Iran, etc.

The entire body count belongs to us. (We are an "ownership" society, aren't we?)

[Just Me]

5. Seems to me that the "moral relativists" are those who attack,...

,..."liberals", "intellectuals", "democrats", etc.

Doncha' think? :bounce:

[Bouncy Ball]

7. Yep.

I rarely ever hear those words used here. Wrong is wrong, period. Hussein was wrong, we are wrong. I outlined above why I feel our wrongs are "worse."

That's my opinion.

[tx_dem41]

14. Can I point out that you just said....

"Wrong is wrong, period."

and two sentences later (!), you said:

"I outlined above why I feel our wrongs are "worse"".

That "period" sure disappeared quickly. ;-)

[Bouncy Ball]

15. Wrong is STILL wrong.

But you honestly don't believe some wrongs are worse than others? (Cheating on a test vs killing someone) How does that not mean wrong is wrong?

[tx_dem41]

17. When it comes to killing

without justification (such as self-defense) it is ALL wrong. From the first death to the last.

What is your point in trying to grade levels of wrong?

[Bouncy Ball]

20. What is your point in trying to deny

that some wrongs are worse than others?

Of course killing without justification is ALL wrong, from the first death to the last. See again, the two reasons I hold for why our killing is worse, in my opinion, than Hussein's. It doesn't mean Hussein's is *OK* by any means, I thought I made that clear in my opening post.

[tx_dem41]

23. I already answered why in my first post...

Didn't you read it?

Now answer my question please.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

24. The point in trying to grade levels of wrong

is to assist in choosing between the lesser of two evils. In this case the choice was between letting Saddam continue killing his own people, or us liberating them and killing many more. At least those were the only two choices seen by the majority of Republicans. I'm sure that many Democrats saw additional choices that they would have preferred (I know I did).

I would merely say that care needs to be taken that such a comparison is not used to stop searching for a choice that is good.

[tx_dem41]

25. In fact, you point out the exact reason why grading wrongs

is errrr...wrong. Thanks.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

26. You're welcome :)

Though I disagree. I do not think that it is wrong, but that it can be used for wrong. At the very least, it is a useful argument when talking to Republicans.

[tx_dem41]

27. But then, can it be used for good? n/t

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

30. Sure

If you can convince one Republican that this war is wrong through an argument like that I'd claim it has done good.

But more seriously, what do you do when you cannot come up with a good solution to a problem. It is the reasoning behind the 'US does not negotiate with terrorists' policy. If terrorists have taken people hostage in return for money, it is wrong to reward the terrorists with money in exchange for the lives of the hostages. It is also wrong to just let the terrorists kill the hostages. Maybe you can find a good solution to that problem but I can't and neither have most governments.

You can also look at the flip side, which I believe is just as valid--comparing a good action to another good action to determine which one is the best. Our government has promised many millions to help the tsunami victims. Maybe it should instead spend all of that money doing something useful in the US, like increasing the Pell grants, NSF, or the NEA. Those are good, but aid to natural disaster victims is better.

[Bandit]

40. Why do they have the death penalty for some murders and not others?

Some wrongs are indeed far worse than others. The death penalty is reserved for the most egregious

[tx_dem41]

12. No, I don't think that at all.

You will have to tell me the logic that takes the phrase "moral relativism" and turns it into a none-to-sly attack.

What part of my statement do you have a problem with? The part where I condemn Saddam or the part where I condemn Bush?

[ProfessorGAC]

38. Moral Relativism?

Could you please define that nebulous term? I ask because i don't believe there is any such thing as moral relativism, and i have an explanation as to why.

If you could define your term in a way that makes sense, perhaps i might be persuaded to change my mind.
The Professor

[arcane1]

2. and remember he was OUR EVIL BASTARD during that time

we allowed him to do these evil deeds with a wink & nod since he was the enemy of those evil Iranians

[diamond14]

16. PHOTO: donald rumsfeld shakes hands with saddam hussein 1983

reTHUGlicans should be really proud of this....their dear st.reaguns and vice-president papa bush*....what could be more dear to those reTHUGlican souls.....




Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.


very good and well documented narrative of the close relationship under reaguns with saddam....years and years of reaguns/bush1/saddam
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

[bpilgrim]

3. the neoCONs are gonna CRUSH that record

at the rate their going :cry:

peace

[0007]

13. It sure look looks like the U.S. will out do Saddam Hussein

in needless deaths

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. Exactly. This war is evil beyond belief.

And there is currently a deafening silence among congressional members who MUST know this.

What I don't get is, why?

The presidenmtial race is over. It's 2 plus years til the next midterms; if you are ever in your professional life going to take any risk at all to stand-up for what is obviously the moral and ethical thing to do... the time is right now.

[Bouncy Ball]

8. Exactly.

And can you imagine the deafening roar of Americans who would stand up and support the congress critter who DID take a strong stand on this? Especially if they VOTED for the IWR and said "I was WRONG."

[Sandpiper]

9. Don't forget Poppy Bush's 100,000 - 150,000 from Desert Storm

Which makes the Bush family responsible for 200,000 to 300,000 Iraqi deaths, about 1% of the total population.

[Bouncy Ball]

11. You are right.

I left out the number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US during Desert Storm. Which is quite unfair, since the number killed by Hussein in the 24 years he was in power INCLUDES Iraqi soldiers he sent to their death against the US in Desert Storm!

(But is your number of 100K to 150K from Desert Storm including Iraqi soldiers? We can't count them twice and my comparison was Iraqi civilians we have killed. Hussein's numbers include Iraqi soldiers because that's the way they came up with his number on several websites I found information on. I have no way of separating out soldiers. So if you want to, take Hussein's lower number of 150,000 Iraqis killed or close to it to make up for that.)

[Ladyhawk]

47. It really gets messy if you factor in civilian deaths due to...

1) The US illegally destroying dams and sewage treatment plants during Gulf War I

2) Sanctions enforced after Gulf War I.

3) Depleted uranium lying around after Gulf War I.

[diamond14]

10. bush* Iraq slaughter is about the same magnitude as the tsunami

but only the tsunami is creating horror and outpouring of empathy and aid worldwide...bush* KILLING seems to not spark much outrage at all....and today, bush* is SO HAPPY that the tsunami wave has wiped out all of the coverage on his slaughter in Iraq....

[CHIMO]

21. Would You

Kindly post the reference for the number of Iraqis that were killed in that time period. I have seen a lot of numbers flying around but the references seem to be lacking.
Would appreciate a reference for the numbers.
Thanks

[Bouncy Ball]

22. I also posted this on the politics board

and they are discussing and providing back up information on numbers which might help you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1459051

[CHIMO]

29. Question Still Stands To You

Could/would you please provide reference for the numbers.

Thanks.

An article about chemical weapons in Iraq.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ECD352BE-6B8F-449F-8F97-C7AB0DC08A94.htm

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

28. Let's not forget that the US had its dirty hands in Saddam's

Slaughtering.

When he gassed the people of Halabja, we provided the helicopters that sprayed the gas. Then when the UN wanted to condemn Saddam, the US voted against it. One of the most vocal ones who didn't want to censure him was Colin Powell. The same Powell who last year placed a wreath at Halabja condemning Saddam.....

Here's an excellent Democracy Now show on it.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/29/155243&mode=thread&tid=22

Halabja: How Bush Sr. Continued to Support Saddam After the 1988 Gassing of Thousands And Bush Jr. Used it As a Pretext For War 15 Years Later After the Halabja gassing President Bush I and Sen. Bob Dole fought sanctions...
Monday, September 29th, 2003

[Moloch]

31. Emergency from Arabia

:kick:

[PowerToThePeople]

32. Halabja...

On Democracy Now! Mr. Peleteire seemed to kinda get the shaft. I definately appreciate what he has to say. As with everything, have to get as much info as possible.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2097.htm

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

34. Thank you for this video! I didn't know that this was out there.

I am going to watch it a little later. And you're right, it is important to get as much info as possible.

[newyawker99]

43. Hi PowerToThePeople!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

35. This Congressional Report contains the laundry list of the goodies

We sold Saddam.

http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/riegle1.html
The Riegle Report

U.S. Chemical and Biol
ogical Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to Iraq and their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the Gulf War
A Report of Chairman Donald W. Riegle, Jr. and Ranking Member Alfonse M. D'Amato of the Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs with Respect to Export Administration
United States Senate, 103d Congress, 2d Session
May 25, 1994



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Table of Contents
Introduction
Chapter 1. Iraqi Chemical and Biological Warfare Capability

Part 1


Status of Iraqi Readiness to Use Chemical Weapons Against Coalition Force
Destruction of Iraq's Chemicals and Chemical Weapons by the United Nations
Chemical Warfare Doctrine and the Use of Combined Agent Warfare
Chemical Nerve Agents
Sarin (GB)
Soman (GD)
Tabun (GA)
VX

Part 2

Vesicants and Blood Agents
Lewisite
Cyanogen Chloride
Hydrogen Cyanide
Blister Agents
Mustard Gas
Related Chemical Agent Information
Biotoxins
Biological Warfare Capability
U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iran
UNSCOM Biological Warfare Inspections

Part 3

Biological Warfare Defense
Types of Biological Agents
Dissemination of Biological Agents
Defensive Measures
Iraq's Experience in the Use of Chemical Warfare Agents
Gulf War Syndrome: The Case for Chemical/Biological Agent Exposure
Chapter 2. Group I Exposures: Reported Direct Exposure Events

Part 1.

Part 2.

Part 3.

Part 4: Reports by Coalition Forces of Iraqi Chemical Mines Located During Breaching Operations, Other Combat-Related Reports, and Conclusions

Chapter 3. Reports of Exposure of Coalition Forces Resulting from the Fallout of the Bombings of Iraqi Chemical, Biological, and Nuclear Facilities (Group II)

Part 1.


The Czechoslovak Chemical Defense Unit in the Persian Gulf and the Results of the Investigations of the Military Use of Poisonous Gases
Other Related Information
U.S. Unofficial Reports of Downwind Exposure Due to Coalition
Bombings of Iraqi Chemical and Biological Facilities
Weather Reports, Climatic Information, and Imagery Smoke Plume Data
Part 2: Gulf War Weather.

Part 3: Gulf War Weather (Continued).

Part 4: Gulf War Weather (Continued).

Part 5: Conclusions.


Chapter 4. Other Identifiable Exposures

Part 1


Chemical/Biological Warfare Pre-Treatment Drug Reaction
Anthrax and Botulinum Toxoid Vaccines
Pyridostigmine Bromide (Group III)
Reported Contact with Iraqi Enemy Prisoners of War
Chemical Agent Resistant Coating (CARC)>
Depleted Uranium Ammunition
Environmental Exposures
Decontamination of Equipment Returned from the Persian Gulf
Theater Operations
Transmission

Part 2

Conclusions
Chemical/Biological Warfare Agent Exposure: Why Wasn't Everyone Affected?
Chemical/Biological Warfare Agent Exposure: Did the Military Know or Suspect that Individuals Were Exposed to these Hazardous Substances?
The Need for Immediate Primary Scientific Research and Advanced Medical Research
Conclusions
Appendix - Material Safety Data Sheets


Chemical Nerve Agents
Tabun (GA)
Sarin (GB)
Soman (GD)
VX
Blister Agents
Sulfur Mustard (HD, THD)
Sulfur Mustard (HT)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This report is derived entirely from unclassified sources.
Approved for public release. Unlimited distribution is authorized.

U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs.

[MisterP]

45. Halabja may have been Iran; however, we still provided and maintained

all the goodies he used in the other attacks on the Kurds.
Many of the mass graves also appear to have been made by the U.S. on the Highway of Death during the Pushbutton War.

[MadHound]

33. One other thing you must know

Is that from the time period from the end of the first Gulf War until we started the present Gulf War, our santions policy, combined with the thrice weekly bombing runs and other armed flair-ups killed aprox. 500,000 innocent Iraqis, mostly women and children.

Yes, there is lots of Iraqi blood on our hands, and it has been there for a long time.

[Disturbed]

36. If Sadaam could run for PM...

he would get a hell of a lot more votes than Allawi.

[sweetheart]

37. 3.5 million dead in eastern congo recently

I'm always amazed at how moralists focus on atrocities that have passed
rather than current ones that could be stopped or prevented such as
the ongoing sudan and congo situations.

To anyone who bothers bringing up saddam, i just ignore their tiresome
dribble. What about NOW!

[Used and Abused]

39. These facts expose freepers as frauds

They couldn't care less about "spreading liberty" or saving Iraqi lives.

[Aristus]

41. Typical repuke response:

"If we do it, it's not wrong."


:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[durutti]

46. Hussein's worst crimes by far took place in the 1980s.

Guess who supported him then?

And don't forget the 1.5 million who died under sanctions.