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romantico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 03:54 PM
Original message
Is Homosexuality a sin? Show this to ANYONE who says it is
This is such a GREAT sermon, I got a little misty eyes just reading it. Wish their were more people like this in the church!

http://www.livejournal.com/users/schauspielerin/39224.html#cutid1
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readmylips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Only God decides on the Sins of Humankind....
None of those fucking religious, money-power hungry Christian idiots have the power to know what God wants. Who the hell appointed them over God?

My New Years resolution is to tell all those religious pricks to go fuck off.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. lol....perhaps you're missing the point....
telling someone to "fuck off" for not loving thy neighbor would be a tad ironic, no?
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. what a wonderful sermon.
a couple more that are good reading

http://www.revricky.com/sermons/gaysandreligion.html

also

http://www.trinitymcc.com/worship/sermon_God_gays2.htm (there are actually 3 sermons here..links for the other two are at the bottom of the page)

also this one is good... http://www.memphis-umc.org/Library/Sermons/Emerson_Dean/2004-05-16.htm esp. this paragraph..
hope by now you can see that this is not a simple issue. My goal was not to persuade you to take one side or the other, but to help you understand both sides. To help us see both sides of the issue so we can be more compassionate and more loving toward those with whom we disagree. Paul said is very clearly that love, not agreement, is of the utmost importance within the Body of Christ. Liberals need to get past thinking that all Conservatives are at best selective Biblical literalists, and at worst hypocrites who not only want to send gays and lesbians to Hell, but also anyone who supports gays and lesbians. Conservatives need to get past thinking that all Liberals totally disregard the Bible, have no moral standards whatsoever, and basically believe anything is okay. Both of these views are caricatures that make us more prone to violate Jesus’ commandment which we heard last week that we love one another. My hope for the Church is that as we continue to struggle with this issue, as we genuinely listen to those on the other side and not just label them as fundamentalists or west coast liberals, we will all realize that we see in a mirror dimly. That none of us has all the answers, that for all of us, our salvation is not dependent upon getting any one issue right; rather our salvation, indeed everyone’s salvation, is dependent upon the love and grace of God poured out upon the world through Jesus the Christ. God loves the Conservatives and the Liberals; the gays and the straights. In other words, maybe our debate will remind us of the Good News which we have to proclaim to the whole world. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners. That proves God’s love for us. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fundies love Paul in Romans 1, ignore Paul in Romans 2
Edited on Thu Dec-30-04 04:21 PM by InvisibleBallots
Fundies love to quote the first chapter of Romans regarding homosexual activity. They NEVER continue reading to chapter 2. Read chapter 2 and it's obvious why.

Romans Chapter 2:

Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.

We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.

Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.

But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

There is no partiality with God.


...

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good point made in the sermon
Being a disciple of Paul vs. begin a disciple of Christ.

The fact is, I am not a disciple of Paul. I am an admirer of Paul, but a disciple of Jesus Christ. Paul himself says that we should not follow him, but Christ alone. So I come back, again to the life and teaching of Jesus as the center of my faith. In that light all other biblical teaching must be critiqued. There are seven passages about homosexual behavior in the Bible, all of which are debatable as to their meaning for us today. There are thousands of references in the Bible that call us, as Jesus commands, to love our neighbor, to work for peace and reconciliation among all people, and to leave judgment to God.
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xray s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Could you post this in Religion and Theology too?
This is excellent.
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readmylips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. Before Cxmas, 7Wives Larry King...
had a panel of religious leaders; Christian, Jew, Catholic, and Dr. Chuppa. The worst idiot was the Christian minister. The best was Dr. Chuppa, who seemed frustrated at all the ignorance and stupidity of American religion.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. this is a wonderful letter from a loving mother of a gay son
I don't have the URL, and because it is not written by an employee of the paper and because I believe she should would want it as widely circulated as possible, I am going to quote it here in its entirety. There is no question about the sincerity and the rightness of what she says. It also provides another answer to those who believe the ugly stereotypes about young people "choosing" to be gay.
---------------------
Letter to the Editor
by Sharon Underwood, Sunday, April 30, 2000
from the Valley News (White River Junction, VT/Hanover, NH)


As the mother of a gay son, I've seen firsthand how cruel and misguided people can be.

Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a gay son and I've taken enough from you good people.

I'm tired of your foolish rhetoric about the "homosexual agenda" and your allegations that accepting homosexuality is the same thing as advocating sex with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny.

My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade. He was physically and verbally abused from first grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay.

He never professed to be gay or had any association with anything gay, but he had the misfortune not to walk or have gestures like the other boys. He was called "fag" incessantly, starting when he was 6.

In high school, while your children were doing what kids that age should be doing, mine labored over a suicide note, drafting and redrafting it to be sure his family knew how much he loved them. My sobbing 17-year-old tore the heart out of me as he choked out that he just couldn't bear to continue living any longer, that he didn't want to be gay and that he couldn't face a life without dignity.

You have the audacity to talk about protecting families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves tear apart families and drive children to despair. I don't know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn't put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it's about time you started doing that.

At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won't get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don't know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn.

If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it. For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I'm puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will? If that's not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can?

A popular theme in your letters is that Vermont has been infiltrated by outsiders. Both sides of my family have lived in Vermont for generations. I am heart and soul a Vermonter, so I'll thank you to stop saying that you are speaking for "true Vermonters."

You invoke the memory of the brave people who have fought on the battlefield for this great country, saying that they didn't give their lives so that the "homosexual agenda "could tear down the principles they died defending. My 83-year-old father fought in some of the most horrific battles of World War II, was wounded and awarded the Purple Heart.

He shakes his head in sadness at the life his grandson has had to live. He says he fought alongside homosexuals in those battles, that they did their part and bothered no one. One of his best friends in the service was gay, and he never knew it until the end, and when he did find out, it mattered not at all. That wasn't the measure of the man.

You religious folk just can't bear the thought that as my son emerges from the hell that was his childhood he might like to find a lifelong companion and have a measure of happiness. It offends your sensibilities that he should request the right to visit that companion in the hospital, to make medical decisions for him or to benefit from tax laws governing inheritance.
How dare he? you say. These outrageous requests would threaten the very existence of your family, would undermine the sanctity of marriage.

You use religion to abdicate your responsibility to be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of religious people who find your attitudes repugnant. God is not for the privileged majority, and God knows my son has committed no sin.
The deep-thinking author of a letter to the April 12 Valley News who lectures about homosexual sin and tells us about "those of us who have been blessed with the benefits of a religious upbringing" asks: "What ever happened to the idea of striving...to be better human beings than we are?"

Indeed, sir, what ever happened to that?
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Excellent.
.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Registered today just to post that remark, eh? n/t
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. he evidentally thinks about homosexuals A LOT
It's a very important issue to him - he needs to come to DU and make sure everyone knows just how he feels about gays. Telling, huh?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. The wise Shakespeare
"Me thinks the lady doth protest too much." :) It is a shame we have created a culture that gays are persecuted by their own because they have yet to learn how to deal with their own inclinations. :(
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Good point!
It makes one wonder, doesn't it? :-)
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Lest someone be confused by your ignorant statement...
...AIDS is caused by a virus, not immorality, and "normal" hetereosexuals constitute the bulk of worldwide cases.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. 'Tis hard to keep dry eyes on reading the truth from a wounded soul.
Thank you for this letter and hopefully it will wake up a few bigots.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. That's my hope as well.
The homophobia craze is based ultimately on fear, and it has been all too easy for unscrupulous people to manipulate those with this fear. The fear is based in part on assumptions, encouraged by too much in our cultural trappings and too many trusted spokespeople, that bi- and homosexual people are somehow not recognizably like themselves, have chosen a "depraved lifestyle" and constitute a danger to "normal" families.

The potentially good news is that ignorance isn't incurable.

Every time I read that letter, I wonder how many of those reading it for the first time in that newspaper were so stunned by the obvious love and sincerity of the mother writing it and the cruelty endured by her son, that they finally begin to question their assumptions. I hope a LOT of people had theirfalse assumptions shaken, and that they then started passing the word.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
38. Mother of Gay Daughter
Yes, I understand.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I'm glad she has you, and not the bigot she might have had. n/t
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wellstone dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent
Thank you.

My 16 year old just finished up a project on anti-gay bias for her Cahtolic School religion class. This would have helped, but she got 50 out of 50 points. I don't know how many points they awarded for courage, but somehow I think speaking up against anti-gay bias in high school deserves extra credit.
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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-31-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
40. My 16-year-old daughter is currently doing a high school project
finding research that homosexuality is genetic. She's (as far as she and we know) heterosexual, but she finds mistreatment and hatred dispicable.

I'm so proud of her, as you must be of your daughter :)

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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Mohammed was okay with Gays too
As for the issue of whether Muhammad himself expressly acknowledged that some people by nature refrain from heterosexuality, thus being natural eunuchs, consider the following hadith. It is related that one of the Prophet's companions, Abu Huraira, went to the Prophet, saying that he was a "young male" who "feared torment for his soul," but that he "did not find the wherewithal to marry a woman" .

The Prophet remained silent, even after Abu Huraira repeated his statement three times. Finally after the fourth time, Muhammad said: "O Abu Huraira, the pen is dry regarding what is befitting for you. So be a eunuch for that reason or leave it alone."

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/Qurannotes.htm

And just to make sure we all get the subtle humor, Abu Huraira was called the "Kitty Man" :)


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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. if it is it is gods sin since he created us all
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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. And, ask them if their heterosexuality is a sin . . . n/t
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. Her words left me bordering on tears.....What eloquent love and
Edited on Thu Dec-30-04 04:53 PM by Rowdyboy
understanding. I'm saving this for my priest(Episcopal)-he'll appreciate it. Lessons like this show those who call all Christians hateful "fundies" are really out of touch with reality, living in their own little worlds, guided only by their misguided stereotypes.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. If you'd care to . . .
Could you point me toward where the Bible uses either the word "faggotry" or "homosexual"? Literal reading only, please. I don't care for modern gloss or exegesis on ancient text.

My guess is, Kabelplink, you won't be around long enough to answer. Bye-bye.
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miss_kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. your lack of rebuttal
and your admission of defeat are duly noted...:)
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. you seem to have an affection for the word 'fag'
very telling

:eyes:
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Tony_Illinois Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Where the fuck are you from?
Don't come in here and insult people and expect anybody to engage with you.
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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Like I read the other day, "Hey mods, cleanup on aisle three."
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. haven't you joined the glorious struggle in iraq yet?
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. Go tell it to David and Jonathan, twit.
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. One of the Bible's greatest love stories!
The Bible says "the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (1 Samuel 18:1) and David lamented thusly upon hearing of Jonathan's death:

"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2 Samuel 1:26)
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pelagius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thank you so much for posting this link.
What is described in this sermon is the faith that many DU Christians follow.
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romantico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. I agree!
Wish Air America would post sermons like this on Fridays, Saturday nights or Sunday mornings. We need more liberal religious leaders speaking out for us (& with all do respect, Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson are not the ones for this task, althought IMO, their hearts are in the right place)
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. It is a great sermon
thanks for posting.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. The strongest and the best I've read yet!
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
32. This is beautiful
And I'm so ashamed of my denom for kicking Sally out of the seminary. :cry:

We struggle with this issue, but I don't now how much longer I can fight it.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
37. In case there's anybody in this thread who HASN'T seen it...
...I still believe that one of the best rebuttals for thugs that selectively quote biblical passages in order to justify their homophobia is the classic "Open Letter To Dr. Laura," which first appeared on the internet in 2000. In this piece, the author pretends to meekly accept the Old Testament quote usually used to claim that homosexuality is a sin. But then he (the version I'll link to below identifies the author) gives additional selective Old Testament quotes that obviously cannot be applied to the modern world. It is brilliant.

I apologize to those who have seen this many times before -- in fact, I've posted about it on the DU board myself recently! -- but I really can't resist in case any of you are unfamiliar with it.

http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/joke/laura.htm
(snip)
An open letter to Dr. Laura

J. Kent Ashcraft
May 2000

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

(snip)

There's more -- additional biblical citations, and in this version, also the texts of each cited verse in two biblical tranlations. I do recommend you savor it all and keep a copy handy for ready quoting. (My personal favorite is the one about owning Canadians.)

I especially like one of the closing lines in the letter:
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

The Letter is funny, but I think it is a good instrument for making people rethink their assumptions about selective biblical quotations.
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