To Prince Harry apologists:

[Bonobo]

No, it is NOT overblown. He is supposed to be a model to his country and this acceptance of him wearing a Nazi uniform reflects very badly on those who apologize for it.

He is not a child and he has been a public figure his whole life. People who defend him sound like Granger's defendant claiming that it's no different than what cheerleaders do.

Really, really sad...and scary.

Please DUers, get a clue.

[forgethell]

1. It was

definitely a very stupid thing for him to do. But then the British royal family has never been notable for its brains.

[greyfox]

4. Where was everyone....

when the Shrub daughters lay drunk in the bar room floors? Gimme a break....

[mattclearing]

8. Yeah, but didn't Harry already do that and smoke pot too?

The Third Reich is just not a laughing matter.

[Bonobo]

10. How are those comparable!?

Let me see...drunk daughters VS. the Prince of England wearing a Nazi uniform...Hmmm...

Oh, I guess you're right. Pretty much the same thing. No go back to sleep or to MGS whichever.

[greyfox]

16. Both CHILDREN....

of what is considered ROYALTY... (the Shrub THINKS he is king after all)... smarty pants. BOTH should or should not be held to the fire for thier actions... but no one worried about the sluts.

[DownNotOut]

23. Odd odd oddd.......

one is in fact royalty (for fucking real) and one is not. Dont make us look like fucking idiots to the trolls.


DownNotOut

[forgethell]

112. One day,

with the right cirmcumstances, couldn't Harry be King of England? The twins will not inherit the presidency.

And aren't you being a little judgmental? "Sluts"?

[Tomee450]

156. Sluts?

That's a pretty strong word.

[okieinpain]

29. that's what I was wondering.

[greyfox]

34. Cool...

and now ya know.

And I said the Shrub THINKS he is royalty, not that he IS... but as far as this country, he is the highest we have even as the lowest we have ever had.... :)

[bobbyboucher]

32. Right here making them out to be the drunk fools that they are.

I think you might need a refresher course.

[forgethell]

111. That was stupid, too, but

I'm not sure I understand your point.

[SemperEadem]

108. not to mention Harry's mother was an idiot, so there ya go

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bonobo]

14. You're right. Jews should just forget about that little Holocaust thing.

I guess the people at Free Republic are right.

[Artemis Bunyon]

48. It's a costume. Get over it.

For fuck's sake.

[Redleg]

52. Yes, and it would still be a costume without the swastika armband

EOM

[Artemis Bunyon]

55. But then it wouldn't be as accurate!

Would it?

[Redleg]

64. Wrong. My grandfather was an Afrika Corps soldier and he wore no Swastika

armband. Swastikas were not worn on the German Wehrmacht uniforms.

[LostinVA]

87. Okay, "forget" about that little thing called the Holocaust

He is third in line to the throne, and many British were killed during WW II by Nazi bombs, and many more fought in the war and on the home front. Including his grandparents and his great grandparents. The East End was destroyed, Coventry was destroyed. So many soldiers were killed in combat. England was economically destroyed for half a generation after the war. For this reason if no other, he should never have done it.

He is old enough to know better. At 20, all I did was drink, shag, and get stoned, and I would never have done this. I have alot of Jewish friends, and my grandfathers and one great-grandfather fought in combat during WW II.

And, for those who say he didn't ask to act as a Representative of the Royal Family, you're right. However, he could step out of the line of succession, and let Prince Andrew move up a space. Other current have done it.

"Boys will be boys" is no longer an acceptable defense to me.

[LostinVA]

88. Okay, "forget" about that little thing called the Holocaust

He is third in line to the throne, and many British were killed during WW II by Nazi bombs, and many more fought in the war and on the home front. Including his grandparents and his great grandparents. The East End was destroyed, Coventry was destroyed. So many soldiers were killed in combat. England was economically destroyed for half a generation after the war. For this reason if no other, he should never have done it.

He is old enough to know better. At 20, all I did was drink, shag, and get stoned, and I would never have done this. I have alot of Jewish friends, and my grandfathers and one great-grandfather fought in combat during WW II.

And, for those who say he didn't ask to act as a Representative of the Royal Family, you're right. However, he could step out of the line of succession, and let Prince Andrew move up a space. Other current have done it.

"Boys will be boys" is no longer an acceptable defense to me.

[bobbieinok]

146. what about someone going as a blackface minstrel????

[pennylane100]

15. The problem is

he and his family feed at the public troth and the people who feed them have a right to expect that they do not mock the thousands of British people who died making sure their troth stays full, not to mention how insensitive it was to memory of the millions who died in the Nazi death camps. Unfortunately they cannot get over it.

[greyfox]

18. They need never get over it....

but wearing a costume is hardly a sin against the Jews.

[Bonobo]

21. You are incredibly insensitive.

My Grandmother lost 12 sisters and brothers and dozens and dozens of cousins and other relatives. So don't fucking tell me or anyone else to "get over" Nazis.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bonobo]

36. "Colored Folks", huh. I've read enough, pal. I know who you are now.

Thanks for making it clear. "Geez".

[greyfox]

82. Okay...

glad we are square.

[roguevalley]

104. If we get over it, we do it again. Remember, bush is putting people

in prisons who are guilty of no crime for the rest of their lives. This is nazism pure and simple and desensitizing people to this allows it. It boggles my mind to hear the excuses. OF course it is here and now. COnsider there have been, what, eight genocides since WWII. Its here and now and must NEVER be excused even in the slightest. Get over it? What a terrible thing to tell anyone.

[UdoKier]

39. Nobody likes to dress up in Nazi regalia more than Jewish comedians.

Take a look at Mel Brooks, who has often donned the uniform in movies and shows to ridicule Hitler and the Nazis.

Do you know that that's not what Harry had in mind? Were you there?

Amazing that people want to focus on trivialties like this when the body count in Iraq keeps inching up and Social Security is on the chopping block.

[Bonobo]

50. So you can use the "N' word because black people do?

[UdoKier]

58. I believe there is a thing called the First Amendment...

So technically, yes I can. If I use it in the wrong way, I may get a punch in the face, but there is still free expression in this country.

But I don't make it a habit - and what harry did is more comparable to dressing up as an overseer - also in questionable taste, but not worthy of a big brouhaha.

[Bonobo]

60. Well, if you told me to "get over the Holocaust: to my face,

that is exactly what you would get. No threat, just a promise.

[UdoKier]

66. But that's not what I'm saying, is it.

I'm saying get over a silly party costume.

It will be a long time until the world gets over the holocausts (of which Hitler's was just one - don't forget about the 2 million SE Asians we murdered, or the 100,000 Iraqis, or any of the other countless genocidal campaigns that have happened in the last century)

I wonder if you would be as angry had he dressed up as Bush, or Pol Pot, or any of the other mass murderers?

Somehow a Nazi tank driver's uniform is the worst of the worst?

If it was an SS uniform, I might agree with you, and if he was carrying a prop can of Zyklon-B or some such thing, I would be in total agreement with you - this costume is not that.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. what about?

So, would it be OK if someone wore just a "regular" KKK sheet, because they are just a "foot solider" as opposed to wearing a "grand dragon" uniform? To display that symbol is offensive to any number of people, and it doesn't matter how low down on the "food chain" the actual solider was!

[UdoKier]

80. SO wearing the US Army uniform is also offensive because it has committed

mass murder in Bush's name?

The difference is that the KKK are knowingly joining a hate group.

Conscripts have no choice but to serve, and many of our troops joined not knowing that Bush would send them to murder Iraq, but they still have to follow orders.

[Behind the Aegis]

94. No.

What is offensive is that people dismiss the horror of the Holocaust as something "to get over!" If he wanted to dress up, he could have done so WITHOUT the Swastika! To compare the US actions of the Nazi regime is offensive on a number of levels! Yes, solders are "acting" on orders, that was true in both cases...the difference...the US has not ROUNDED UP and EXECUTED 13 MILLION people! Not soldiers killed in war...civilans rounded up like cattle! I think the war in Iraq is horrific, it is illegal, and it is destroying the people of Iraq, but to compare it to the Holocaust is sick! The NAZIS were and ARE a hate group as well!

[UdoKier]

98. You should be greatful that you weren't a young man in Germany back then

You would have either been drafted or put in a concentration camp depending on your background.

Most Nazi soldiers were not involved in the holocaust, certainly not panzer drivers.

And while you may want to make a (nationalism-based) distinction about why this mass murder is worse than that mass murder based on numbers - I do not.

And *I* never told anyone to get over the Holocaust. To the contrary, it something the people involved will never get over. But I suspect most of them will get over Harry's costume in short order.

Last, I never defended his wearing it, I just think it's been blown way out of proportion.

[Behind the Aegis]

100. Gratitude

As a Jew, I know where I would have been! Therefore, someone wearing a Nazi armband is OFFENSIVE to me, and I don't care if they are prince or pauper!! Mass murder is always bad, but there is a difference in what is happening now, and what happened then. Innocent Iraqis are killed because of bombs falling on their homes, they are not rounded up and placed in one area and gassed, gunned down, and experimented on! There is a difference is deaths attributed to war and those of genocide; even if the war is illegal!

The media attention will die down, but it is important to discuss the poor nature of his choice and others like him!

I never said you told anyone to "get over it," put you should read your won thread because there are a few posts here that do say that! This is why it SHOULD be discussed!!!

[UdoKier]

103. I understand what you are saying

But being told "you dad died from Bush's bombs" would be no more comforting than "Your dad died in Hitler's gas chambers"

And if I had to choose either of them as a way to die, I could not, because they are equally horrific.

And not to worry, his costume will obviously be discussed to death, even as much more important events take place...

[Behind the Aegis]

105. as it was, so it shall be

You are right, there is little comfort in finding out your father is dead....no matter if in war or a car accident. BUT, there is a difference in dying in a war of aggression and being systematically executed for being inferior, like animals.

His costume will be discussed, and blown out of proportion by some, but I am capable of discussing multiple issues, as many here are. Just because our nation is involved in an illegal war does not give offensive behavior a free pass.

[roguevalley]

109. You know, it wasn't just poor taste. It was a conscious decision

to wear a uniform of a horrible enemy and do it in full view of the paparazzi. I think it illuminates something awful in the head of this idiot boy. And if its in his head, it must be rampant in his group. They all need to go out and live like the rest of us but he wouldn't survive. He's never done an authentic thing in his life. Going somewhere for a while and chopping wood doesn't count. Ass face does the same thing. What is it about useless people and chopping wood? Reagan, Bush, this pig.

[roguevalley]

107. and we're telling you we will NEVER get over it. If it wasn't such

a big deal, why is his country so bitter? And, who are you to tell anyone to get over it. Is your opinion more important than anyone elses? If you 'got over it' bully for you. But some of us have memories in our family of the Nazis and since that makes us closer to the problem, I give more weight to their opinions than someone who hasn't got that burden. As for the party, "colonials and whatever?" what a buncha racist bullshit. What are they celebrating? Their dominion over conquered people. What would the outcry be if the Klan had a Master/Slave party or Bush had a Redneck/Conquistador party? How would decrying that be any different than decrying this? Or, are we supposed to "get over" slavery and the Iraqi invasion and all the other murderous bullshit ever done.

[greyfox]

84. Amen and aMEN!!! n/t

[Mike Daniels]

102. My understanding that the theme for the party was colonialism

A German military uniform would have been within the theme. The only reason (however flawed or stupid) I can think of using the Nazi armband would have been to avoid "so what are you supposed to be?" all night long.

Doesn't excuse the utter cluelessness of the ramifications but I seriously doubt Harry truly subscribes to the Nazi philosophy.

I wonder how much longer people are going to pillory the guy for just being stupid or thoughtless.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OneBlueSky]

67. in historical time, sixty years ago was yesterday . . .

anyone suggesting that we "get over" the holocaust is sadly lacking in their appreciation of history . . . as well as the nature and scope of the atrocities the constituted the holocaust . . .

who was it that said something about those who fail to study history being destined to repeat it? . . .

[Behind the Aegis]

69. How sad

What a callous person you are. The fact it was 60 years ago doesn't take away from the impact it had on many people who live with those memories. Do you also tell rape victims to "get over it?" I hope you are in no position to counsel anyone!

[PA Democrat]

96. Are you aware that the 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust represented

HALF of the world's population of Jews at the time? Hitler also sought out gypsies, homosexuals, and the disabled for extinction.

Prince Harry is PAID by the people of the UK, and they have a right to expect a modicum of good taste from him.

I love to laugh and can find humor in many things, but this just isn't one of them.

[Artemis Bunyon]

114. Are you sure about your numbers there?

Half the world's Jewish population? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just asking if you're positive. Because I don't know.

[Bonobo]

118. I think it was actually one third.

[sir_captain]

121. in between

there were 15,000,000 approximately, so it's in between 1/2 and 1/3.

[sir_captain]

119. There were about 15,000,000 Jews before the holocaust

so it's a bit short of 50%, but close enough.

Also, what's your point other than demonstrating your own ignorance?

Where do you live? Do you know any holocaust survivors? Do you know anyone (like me) whose families were murdered by the Nazis?

[Artemis Bunyon]

125. Yes, I do know some Holocaust surivors.

And none of them are as puffed-up and self-righteous as you and the other poseurs in this thread, trying to prove your boundless empathy by going into full-blown freak-out mode over Harry's stupid costume.

[sir_captain]

127. I haven't mentioned Prince Harry at all

I only replied to your sickening opinion that I "get over" the holocaust. There is something self-righteous about the fact that I haven't forgotten the way the Nazis murdered my grandmother? Or my great-uncle? Or how they took away all of my family's possessions and destroyed their business?

[Artemis Bunyon]

129. Are you on the wrong thread?

This is the "Prince Harry's Nazi costume" thread.

[sir_captain]

134. Duh

I also believe it's ok to respond to individual posts within a thread.

[Artemis Bunyon]

137. Okay, but there's a context.

x

[sir_captain]

138. True

though I don't think the context was all that important to your suggestion that people "forget about it"

[Artemis Bunyon]

139. My last post on this subject...

Getting over it and forgetting about it are two VERY different things.

[sir_captain]

141. Fair enough

though that's boiling it down to semantics to a certain degree.

Anyway, that's my last post on the subject as well...

[Behind the Aegis]

124. Here you go

Not that you will appreciate this but...Numbers of Jews killed in the Holocaust I am not sure about the world's population, but over half of the Jewish population of Europe were eliminated. Does that make a difference to you?

[PA Democrat]

128. Yes I am. Here is the link

Six million Jews were killed throughout Europe by the Nazis. These six million represented half of the world's Jewish population at that time. With them died the Yiddish language and culture of Eastern Europe Jews. This was genocide—systematic measures to exterminate a racial, political, or cultural group.

http://www.riverdeep.net/current/2000/05/front.010500.shoah.jhtml

[sir_captain]

99. I weep for our children

if too many people have your attitude.

[Artemis Bunyon]

115. You must weep a lot.

Keep a box of Kleenex handy.

[sir_captain]

117. Dude, give it a rest

Doesn't the fact that your post was deleted clue you in to the fact that the opinion you espoused is not particularly welcome here. Honestly, if you said that shit to most people I know, you'd be lucky if you just got punched in the face.

[Artemis Bunyon]

120. What opinion is that, exactly?

That would get me punched in the face?

[sir_captain]

123. The "get over it" part

obviously. You remember? The post of yours that was deleted for violating the rules?

[Artemis Bunyon]

126. How did it violate the rules?

Many posters here have insinuated that I'm a Nazi. Have those people violated the rules?

[sir_captain]

132. Yeah, probably

hit alert if it bothers you. I agree with you that there is no place for that, and I have no doubt you are not a nazi even though I vehemently disagree with your opinion.

As for your post, it was disrespectful, disruptive, inflammatory flamebait, all of which are against the rules. Did you think it was deleted by accident?

[Artemis Bunyon]

136. I understand the mechanics of how posts get deleted.

And you're right. My post was flame-bait to a certain extent.

But it was flame-bait in response to what I perceived as a histrionic reaction to a straw-man subject that doesn't deserve to be the focus of so much of our attention.

Sometimes, flame-bait has a higher purpose.

Thanks for not calling me Adolf. I appreciate it.

[sir_captain]

140. I don't completely disagree with you

that in the grand scheme of things, Prince Harry being an enormous dumbass is not that important.

I would say, however, that your response that people ought to forget about the holocaust because it happened sixty years ago is a response *way* out of proportion in its own right.

[roguevalley]

110. thank you, adolf, but I'm not getting over it.

[Artemis Bunyon]

116. Thank you, Adolf. That's great.

Get over yourself.

[hollywood926]

143. I guess Democrats can be suckered, too! Embarrassing!

Look at you all. Bickering over what the media tells you to bicker over. A young man going to a party in a Nazi costume. A young man you don't know at a private party you weren't invited to...

and look at you.

Ick.

:tinfoilhat:

[justsomegirl]

63. Check your history-

It's also about more than the Jews.

Ever hear of the Blitzes in London during WWII?

England was bombed by the Germans, and there are still many people alive today who had to live through the horrors that were promulgated throughout Europe on behalf of the Axis forces.

It wasn't just the jews who suffered at the hands of the Nazis, and I can completely understand why the British people are outraged.

[northzax]

89. and the British firebobmed Dresen

it was a war, after all. The blitz of London was, in the context of the war, a legitimate activity, at least in the eyes of the Brits who turned around and bombed civilian populations as well. What became legitimate acts of war on both sides can hardly be mentioned in the same breath, or even chapter with the genocide of entire populations.

Look, tyhis was obviously a poor choice of cotume, and does not reflect credit on Harry. But please, it's a stupid thing someone did at a costume party. It wasn't an SS uniform, it was a poorly designed german minitary uniform of the world war II era, complete with insignia. Had he appeared wearing a rising sun on his sleeve, dressed as a japanese imperial soldier, would that have raised as much of a tempest? why not? the Japanese imperial army killed just as many civilians as the Germans did. They certainly targeted civilian populations, and enslaved civilians. What if he'd dressed up as Robert E Lee? The leader of an army that attempted to perpetuate the insitution of slavery based on race? (yes, Lee may have felt salvery was distasteful and wrong, but his love for Virginia brought him to the battlefield and he fought.) What about Stalin? I was Stalin for halloween one year, he was the scariest guy I could come up with. does that make me insentisitve to the 35 million people he killed? Thats certainly more than the Nazis pulled off.

Look, it's a big, nasty world out there. The wounds of the Shoa run deep, and one of the reasons is the continued victimhood of one particular group (albiet the largest) of victims of this murdurous rampage. (I'm sorry if I don't have the words to describe the horror and brutality, I'm doing my best) It's funny how no one is talking about Harry's disresepct for the Gypsies who were basically eradicated from Europe, or the Homosexuals who died alongside them in the camps. Or the communists. Anyone?

You can never 'get over' something like this, as people have suggested, and I hope we never forget, but perhaps the way to go about it at this point is to make nazis into figures of ridicule, not hate. The swastika is not a sacred symbol, it shouldn't be, nor should we continue to allow it to be a symbol of fear. I'm not saying it should be a symbol of anything but evil, but let's make it into a ridiculed symbol of evil, not a spectre of demonology. Instead of investing the symbol with the power to invoke fear from beyond the grave, let's turn it into a powerless boggart (Harry potter fans will get the reference) a relic of an evil and discredited theory, the phrenology of social theories. as far as I'm concerned, anyone who espouses Nazi theories is a fucking bonehead, not worthy of inclusion in polite society. Why invest it with the power to create fear and turmoil from beyond the grave? Prince Harry isn't a Nazi, he's just an idiot who wore a stupid, poorly deesigned and thought out costume to a fancy dress ball. Let us remember the horror, work to ensure it never happens again, and laugh at anyone stupid enuogh ot believe the ideology the swastika represents. a young man wearing a nazi uniform to a party should not be treated as a horror, but as a bad, bad cliche. Tasteless, yes. but not the second coming of Hitler.


on edit: the swatika, and he nazis, certainly inspire stong emotions in many people, including fear and rage. This is understandable and the correct reposne, indeed, if this had happened in the beginning, the holocaust would not have been as horrific, but the world stood by and let it happen) However, the fact that this symbol continues, 60 years later, to inspire the same emotions and the same knee jerk responses leads to the conclusion that it has as much power after being dead for 60 years as it ever did while alive.

[bobbieinok]

148. Bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, etc....if you don't want your cities and

citizens bombed, DON'T START WARS

[okieinpain]

30. wow. so maybe people can do costumes of 9/11 victims, or how

about a rape victim. I mean it is just a costume party.

[demily]

70. Bad analogy

If he had dressed up like a holocaust VICTIM, I would be upset too. But he's certainly not the first person to dress up like a Nazi. When you mock an oppressor you take away some of his power. I think Bush is evil and has caused harm to millions of people, but if somebody came into a costume party dressed like him, I would laugh my ass off.

[okieinpain]

159. oh yeah, that's great so you would don a kkk uniform and tell

me that your taking away some of his power. yeah right.

[Artemis Bunyon]

130. How about dressing up like Osama bin Laden?

Would that be acceptable to you?

[okieinpain]

160. yeah, sure if he had a arrow through his head,

[bobbyboucher]

35. You need a refresher course.

It would be just plain bad taste for you to do it, for the Prince of England, it is downright awful.

[flygal]

77. I haven't commented on this yet

But I'm kind of sick of the "get over it" attitude. He's been trained his whole life to present himself as a public figure. Yes, we all did stupid things when we were younger but I didn't have a 6-figure nanny training my every bowel movement. If he wants to rebel smoking pot - fine. But he crossed the line and it shouldn't be "pooh poohed". There's obviously something going on - he has some kind of prejudice in him to not be sympathetic.

[BiggJawn]

3. So-How long?

He acted boorish. So'd Ted Danson when he pulled that blackface stunt with Whoopie. He apologised and I think we can all agree he acted stoopid. He's a "Royal", go figger.

How long should Harry stay at the top of the news? until the next Paris Hilton sex video is released? Until we hear about somebody in the Ohio river getting chomped by a shark that got lost and swam up through the flood waters?

Gotta have SOMETHING to fill our empty lives with since Scott Peterson's old mashed potatoes...

[okieinpain]

31. he should be there for a while. that's was pretty stupid, it's not like

it's the first time someone gotten in trouble for do it.

[BiggJawn]

74. No, it's not. I remember back in 1979...

A coupla friends of mine went to a Halloween night concert at Market Square Arena, and got the bright idea to dress as Wehrmacht. One went as a soldier, coal scuttle helmet, toy MP-38/40, the other went as an officer. I think they actually scored some original uniforms from the big costume house in town...

They damn near caused a riot...

[KurtNYC]

5. Bush and Powell salute Prince Harry

[SOS]

6. Comparing Harry to Granger is absurd.

nt

[Bonobo]

7. I did not compare them. Please read post.

I compared the apologists' defense of him with Granger's defense.

[SOS]

25. The comparison is

"People who defend him sound like Granger's defendant claiming that it's no different than what cheerleaders do."

The key is "sound like". Maybe they do sound alike, but they are not alike.
Grangers apologists are denying that any crime was committed. Their defense, in light of the evidence and testimony, is false.
The Harry apologists are not denying anything. They are saying that a troubled young man made a big mistake for which he has already apologized. Their defense is not true or false, but rather opinion.

A comparison of the two types of apologists doesn't hold up, since the offenses are completely different and the defenses are fact v. opinion.

[Az]

9. He is supposed to be a human being

Circumstances beyond his control have placed him in a position where he is forced to be a model for British citizens. Yes it was stupid. But then the situation is stupid IMO. He has been raised in a bubble. I have sympathy for him as an individual. Set the royals free.

[DinahMoeHum]

11. What do you expect from a nation that looks upon Harry as a "spare"

as in a "spare part"...

...and not as an "heir" (or a "favorite" - which they tack onto Prince William)

:evilfrown:

[JordanTO]

12. You're right.

It was, at the minimum, an enormously stupid thing to do.

[MsTryska]

13. he's still hot tho.

i'd totally do him.

[Terran]

27. Ugh, you're kidding, right?

He looks like a soccer hooligan.

[MsTryska]

37. nope. i think he's hot....

even hotter than his brother.


and i don't typically dig red-heads, either. he's got good bone structure tho.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

17. It is almost inexcusable but we have to remember he is a kid though.

A kid whose mother was horribly killed when he was just a child. His father was being blamed by many people for murdering her.

I did a lot of stupid things when I was a kid and I know of a ton of guys who were his age who did a lot of idiotic things. I blame the older people around him for not stopping him from doing it.

I had a brother who did a lot of knuckleheaded things - along with his friends.

[CountAllVotes]

19. tough shit!

That's what I have to say about it! How offensive to Jews and others murdered in the holocaust! He is NOT a "kid". He is 20 years old!

When I was 20 years old I had a full-time job, paid my own bills and was 100% responsible for MY actions.

This 2-bit "prince" or whatever he really is is a complete idiot and is also is insulting and degrading the remaining survivors and ancestors of the holocaust that he obviously has no regrets about IMO. If he thinks it is wrong, he would have never chosen this "costume".

[Maple]

20. He is not a kid

He is 20 years old, well-schooled and lives a life of privilege, rank and travel.

He is not a middle class teenager from the burbs.

He should know better.

[chaumont58]

22. I agree with you

Perhaps 100 million people died in the War that was caused in large part by the nation that had that symbol in their national symbol.
To those that say it was Harry's right, I ask the question: Should Lincoln have shown up at the dedication of the Gettysburg National Cemetery with a Star and Bars draped over his shoulder?
Harry has the right to show up buck naked whenever and where ever he wants, but he is still third in line for the British throne and represents the face of the English monarchy.
As far as going to Auchwitz, to me that is locking the barn door after the horse is gone. But, where is any apology to British vets of World War II? The British Army fought Nazi Germany from September 1939 to May 1945. Is Harry going to a British military cemetary and apologize to the dead?

[DrWeird]

24. "But it was just a joke!"

How many times have I heard bigoted assholes use that excuse?

[ChairOne]

28. Bam. /eom

[CountAllVotes]

40. just a "bad apple"

and a rotten one too it seems!

:kick:

[UdoKier]

33. He's not "wearing a uniform"

He was dressed as a Nazi for a costume ball. Good taste should not be required by law.

As for his "position" it is an artificial one, and he's no better or worse than a common beggar on the street. I'll be quite happy when he and his entire family have to fend for themselves off the public teat.

George Bush goes to work in a 3-piece every day - and he is a mass murderer. Shall we get all peeved about people dressing up as him.

Oh wait, mass murder based on race or religion is somehow worse than mass murder based on greed? Oh I get it now. Sorry.

[Bonobo]

38. Yeah, you are sorry.

[UdoKier]

43. Do you even read any of the posts here?

Or do you just sit there in a huff, so incensed that someone might think differently from you that you just ignore everything anybody says?

It's almost like talking to a rightwinger. How did you get so rigid?

[Bonobo]

54. Is it an opinion that it hurt and infuriated people?

I guess you just don't care about others feelings? Oh yeah, they are irrelevant because it happened 60 years ago, right?

[UdoKier]

Thank you for clarifying that you do not.

nt

[ChairOne]

41. Strawman award of 2005!

Unless you can show anything written, by anybody, anywhere, at any time that said, suggested, or implied that dressing up like a nazi should be illegal.

Extra points for finding such a thing within the last 3 days on this forum...

[CountAllVotes]

42. do you prefer

Mass murder with genocide as the goal? Are we not witnessing enough of this today? What the hell is wrong with people anyway?

Jezuzzzzzzzz!

:kick:

[Behind the Aegis]

44. taste

You are right, it was not in good taste and their is no accounting for taste. His position is no more artificial than a member of Congress. It may not have much weight here in the US, and even in the UK sometimes, it doesn't carry as much weight. However, he is a member of a royal family that is in the spotlight as much as any politician or actor or other famous person. It was a poor choice.

As for your "argument" about equating a three-piece suit with the uniform of a mass murder, I think that is a far stretch. Personally, I hate suits and would love if they fell out of favor, but to equate it with a Nazi uniform is silly!

I don't think ANYONE here thinks that one form of mass murder over another is "better." To imply it is dishonest and tacky, IMO.

[UdoKier]

53. No I mean Bush mask and all.

Nobody would be mad if I dressed up as Bush at a party, and he is a more bloodthirsty killer than most of the Panzer soldiers that Harry was dressed up as.

To say that dressing up as a Nazi tank soldier is worse than dressing up as GW Bush is an intellectual dishonesty.

Evil is evil - and it deserves to be ridiculed, and for all you know that's what he was doing.

[Maple]

45. It's of rather more significance

to the British, than it appears to be to you.

He could be their head of state, and his ability to distinguish serious matters from joking ones is important.

[roguevalley]

158. Then the little idiot, if he finds his f**king job too confining should

go out and get a REAL one like the rest of the rabble. If he's so damned delicate he can't remember to be decent in the public eye, leave home and work for a living.

[sweetheart]

46. To faux-liberals calling for a crucifixion, shame on you

He was exercising his right to free expression as a private citizen
in a private party, in his private life, and it is none of anyone's
f***ing business what he wears.

You who are for limiting his human rights should be ashamed of yourself
regardless of how poor his taste in clothes happens to be.

[Maple]

49. He is not

a private citizen.

[sweetheart]

62. Who stripped him of his civil rights?

He is not an official of the government, only a potentiate for the
throne. Since when does that strip him of the civil rights we afford
all citizens?

[Maple]

68. He is a member

of the royal family, a specific position in the UK, unique to them, that doesn't have the 'civil rights' you mean. They have other rights, that you will never get.

It's a position of rank and privilege, and carries greater responsibility than being a member of the general public.

[sweetheart]

73. Prove it.

Where exactly is that written, these special rights and non-rights?

I'm curious, as i can't find it in print...

[Karenina]

101. It seems you

just. don't. get. it.

[sweetheart]

106. No i don't buy bullshit to proof

I already posted in the UK forum the exact UK law about civil freedoms
and nothing has been violated except prince harry's privacy.

I've already repeatedly remarked that it was a poor decision on his
part, but that said, it was a decision, and no person has any right
to demand he change it.

It.seems.you.just.dont.get.it. sadly, bullshit seems the preference
over law and the human right to freedom of speech and expression.

[Maple]

151. Odd you don't know

your own history.

Odd you don't know your own government structure.

Are you sure you live in the UK?

Try looking on the monarchy website and reading about the royal perogatives, and duties of a British monarch.

Or on the UK government page.

This is what he is being raised to do.

And he's being supported by your tax dollars to do it.

[bobbieinok]

149. also a tremendous amt of money, right....more than any of us will

ever see in our lifetimes

[fujiyama]

51. Yes...

Condemning a person wearing a Nazi uniform is limiting human rights.

:eyes:

And yes it's the British public's business what he does. He's living off their taxes. I don't blame people in that country for being disgusted with him and the royal family in general.

[sweetheart]

65. attacking his reputation in the media

for a costume party choice, really is bordering on liabel given what
people are saying. Given that "demos" and "democrat" are not at all
in keeping with a royal family, then it seems that perhaps we at DU
should be affording him citizen rights, like privacy, and leaving him
to his freedom of expression.

Other people in the UK wear swaztika's in a political party called
the british national party, and those people are much more scary, as
they're serious.

Worse yet, a recent genocidal act by the american forces in falluja
should make it heinous for harry to wear an american flag armband,
but instead the hipocrites are all focused on some lost history.

[SidDithers]

164. You're comparing Falluja with the Holocaust?...

Wow, you seem to be lacking a bit of a sense of perspective.

Lost history? Ugh. :eyes:

Sid

[Redleg]

56. What if he had gone in "blackface?" Would that be all right too?

Why not just go naked- that's his right too, right?

[sweetheart]

72. hey, its a free country

He can go naked, dressed as an arab, or even made up to look
like the queen for all i care... blackface as well... surely
all these things could be interepreted as bad taste, but indeed,
most humour is combined with bad taste of one sort or another,
as often the charge is poking at something deeper.

The current establishment is assisting america in an illegal
criminal war, and he has worn the armband of the last nation
to wage similar illegal criminal wars. Rather than chastize
him, it seems he's the only person in the royal family with a
taste of the ironic truth.

[Redleg]

79. He has "a taste of the ironic truth?"

How do you know his motives for wearing the armband?

The point that many here have tried to make is that the costume is stupid and offensive and a poor use of freedom of expression. If the prince wants to draw a connection between what his country is doing now and what Germany did during WWII then he should have a more articulate way of saying it.

[sweetheart]

86. i never said i know his motives

I did point out that there is irony involved, that perhaps some people
who might not want to speak overly loudly about it, as it is not the
establishment view, might indeed notice.

That said, so what. Janet jackson's boob is irrelevant, as was her
costume malfunction. Harry's taste malfunction is equally irrelevant
except to the chattering classes.

Anyone serious about genocide is focused on current genocide happening
today in sudan, the millions dying in the AIDS epidemic, Congo's
civil war of millions dead... and instead, people are all pumped up
with their egos aflame over something historic they have no power over
except to protest a bloody costume.

It is pathetic.

[Redleg]

93. You are right- the costume is trivial compared to genocide.

But why not rail on it anyway? After all, we are here at DU, wasting time that could be better spent taking our quarrels with Bush out into the street.

[Karenina]

155. MSM STRIKES AGAIN!

Wonder what ELSE happened today... :freak:

[Behind the Aegis]

57. no nails and boards here!

I fail to see where anyone is calling for his head or have him "crucified." It was a POOR choice for someone who has a HIGHLY public role, as well as a private life. Would you be as "understanding" if the private citizen, Jenna Bush, at an equally private party, attend said part in "black-face?" With exposure comes responsibility, it is not always fair, but that is life.

[sweetheart]

76. Say a bush daughter on drugs or shit-faced drunk?

Or wearing a poorly considered costume... likely it would be forgiven
on the spot. I'll wager quite a few bush supporters prominently
display the stars and bars... where is the indignation?

We of the demos, support the civil rights of all people to their
freedom of expression, no exceptions. Sure the media can say whatever,
and we the public should just move on to something relevant... lest we
intend one day for our own future indiscretions to be paraded the planet
over as if a crime had been committed.

[Behind the Aegis]

83. what?!

What does being drunk or doing drugs have to do with this?! If they were drunk/high then that exposes their parents in a bad light and some other ramifications. This has nothing to do with civil rights. I GUARANTEE that if the Bush twins showed up in Klan's robes, there would be an outrage!

[sweetheart]

90. how about an american flag

that stands for agressive war, mass murder, the use of chemical weapons
and WMD's on civilians, the support of dictators in pakistan, saudi
arabia, egypt and an ongoing criminal occupation of iraq. Gosh, it
seems given the symbolism, that the public SHOULD be outraged when the
twins wear american flags.

Instead the chattering classes vent hostility at prince harry to
hide from their own hipocrisy.

[Behind the Aegis]

95. at the rate we are going

If Shrub and his cronies are allowed to continue unabated, we may well find ourselves in the same boat. It is an illegal war. It is vile. But to raise it to the horrors of the Holocaust is dishonest, at best! He could have worn the uniform with out the Swastika! Just because he are horrified at the war in Iraq, doesn't mean we should be horrified at displays that "honor" the deeds of the Nazi Regime!

[onenote]

122. off base

Many horrible things have been and are being done under the banner of the American flag, but so have many noble things. The fact is that the current administration and its toady followers in Congress are desecrating the flag. But equating the US flag with the Nazi swastika...that's quite stupid.

onenote

[sweetheart]

150. You're being dramatic, the american flag current represents criminality

That is all the point i'm making. The flag today represents the illegal
criminal invasion and mass murder of 100,000 civilians in iraq. It
represents the current fascism of TODAY, and i'm not talking about
any history or future... now! Rather people here seem to rather
badmouth a young man for wearing an old flag that people remember
from back when it represented "criminality TODAY".

So are you saying mass murdering 100,000 civilians with chemical
weapons, airial bombs and whatnot is less of a crime than murdering
10,000,000 civilians? It strikes me the crime and the evil are the
same, minus a few zeros... and indeed, they are the same, and people
do not recognize it because they are part of the momentum.

Perhaps the people in guantanamo's final solution are not as many as
a once larger final solution (modelled on the american final solution
with the indians it must be said)... so is this a competition to see
who can do the best final solution, life internment beyond the law
and continuous torture and murder... or do the bodies have to be
incinerated in order for people to recognize it as the same.

The US flag is the swaztika of today. That people have romantic
images from movies don't change that at all. So what is off base?

[onenote]

152. the swastika as used by the nazis

was never a symbol of anything other than an evil, abominable regime. That's not true of the American flag. Even today.

onenote

[Bridget Burke]

81. Nobody's trying to crucify him.

We're just saying "what a twit!"

[fujiyama]

47. He's no kid

Many 20 year olds were out dying to save Britain from the Nazis.

Harry is obviously a spoiled punk and what the fuck is the theme of the party? Colonists and natives? I guess the British royals still have to celebrate their former glory as being the imperalist superpower. It seems like the ruling class in Britain look back to those days with great nostalgia.

Now they have to share that glory with Bush...I think that's the reason why they went into Iraq...It was to save the notion of an empire that is now dead.

[CountAllVotes]

59. maybe that is his goal

Maybe Harry doesn't really want to go into the British Army. Maybe this is his way of being found "unfit for duty" because he doesn't want to go and fight in Iraq (not that he ever would!). :grr:

:kick:

[fujiyama]

61. Maybe

Who knows. I somehow doubt he's that bright or if he was even thinking. It just seems like a stupid thing to have done.

Frankly I think the British are nuts to keep the royal family, but then again I think Americans pretty fuckin stupid for voting for the Bush dynasty we have here!

I really dislike dynasties. I hate political power in the hands of a single family, that too worthless leeches like the Bushes.

[David Zephyr]

75. Thank you, Bonobo!

What signal does it send to skinheads and hatemongers around the globe?

When one considers that the Windsor family flirted with Hitler during World War II while British kids were bleeding to death and while British cities were being bombed, this is not silly issue.

When one considers that Harry (he's not a prince) also had recently said that "it's not like she was black or anything like that" regarding concern about a girl he was dating, this is not a silly thing.

I thank you, Bonobo for your thread. I posted some of this on the other thread as well. But here's just a few reasons it isn't a light thing.

[northzax]

97. what signal does it send to neo nazis?

it sends the signal: your hero is nothing better than a costume for a fancy dress ball. I'll wear your sacred items while cavorting with people dressed up as leopards (William) prostitues, colonials, dracule and other fantasies of times gone by. I laugh at you, that's how pitiful you are.

what message does it send to people that the swatika remains a symbol of power of people? That skinheads and neo-nazis (are there any of those left?) can maintain the power of fear over people by using a couple of silly lines on an armband and dressing in the uniform of a defeated army from 60 years ago. Why give them any power at all?

Harry wore a stupid costume to a party. His brother dressed up as a leopard, no one read anything into that. Why do we allow this uniform to continue to have power over us? Laugh at him, shake your head and call him a fool and a twat and move on.

on edit: Of course I don't mean move on from remembering and memorializing the horrors and evil of the holocaust, that should never be forgot. I mean move on from paying attention to a stupid kid who wore a stupid costume ot a party.

[David Zephyr]

147. So I guess you would excuse Bush's daughters if they wore swastikas, too?

Please re-read your post.

[LostinVA]

78. I'm in 100% agreement, Bonobo

eom

[clem_c_rock]

85. Or it's possible it's a little SMOKESCREEN

Has ended in a complete farce - as we all knew it would.

Guess what, this story has captured much more attention on NPR than the ending of the search for WMD's.

Make's me a bit suspicious.

[UdoKier]

91. Nah, this is the most important thing we could possibly discuss!

And who are we silly liberals to disagree with the MSM's decision on what the "big story" of the day is to be?

And lucky for the right and the MSM, we have an endless supply of (well-intentioned, but) PC-obsessed folks to carry their water for them over minor, symbolic incidents like this...and the big crimes keep being committed with no scrutiny whatsoever.

[Behind the Aegis]

131. Other discussions

And lucky for the right and the MSM, we have an endless supply of (well-intentioned, but) PC-obsessed folks to carry their water for them over minor, symbolic incidents like this...and the big crimes keep being committed with no scrutiny whatsoever. This story being blasted all over the news is NOT the doing of well-intentioned PC 'lefties." This is happening because the MSM is not doing their damn job! This event needed to see the light of day, but because it is not getting MSM coverage, the blame falls on the "PC left?" That is ridiculous!

[UdoKier]

153. Exactly the opposite

This is happening because the MSM is not doing their damn job! This event needed to see the light of day, but because it is not getting MSM coverage, the blame falls on the "PC left?" That is ridiculous!

No, this totally irrelevant non-event never should have seen the light of day. What difference does it make in anyone's life that some snot-nosed kid of completely unearned privilege wore a tasteless costume to a party? NONE!

And it is getting TONS of MSM coverage - which is exactly why they are not doing their job! This is as important as Laci & Scott, Brad & Jen, or JonBenet - tabloid nonsense!

I don't blame the PC folks (not necessarily "left") for putting this story out and hyping it - but they certainly do take the bait predictably and get sucked into little anecdotal debates while the big picture continues to be ignored.

[Behind the Aegis]

154. MSM

I have no idea about the MSM, I don't watch it. I get my news from AP and the foreign pressed and this story is not at the top of the list. Therefore it IS the fault of our media for blathering on about it. However, discussing it on a discussion board is not a waste of time.

[onenote]

92. sad, yes.

Yes its sad that Harry didn't have the good sense to realize that, as member of the royal family and one of the "symbols" of the British people, that dressing as a Nazi, even if meant to mock the Nazis, was a poor choice. And I suppose it is scary that the memory and meaning of the Holocaust has weakened to the point where it wouldn't be obvious to Harry that he was making a poor choice.

But a lot of posts (not necessarily yours) act like its Harry that's "scary". I see no evidence that Harry wants to be a Nazi. Yes, he was insensitive. Yes he should have known better (and presumably now does), but let's not assume that Harry is somehow harboring Nazi sympathies.

I'm happy that he was publicly criticized because it helps educate a generation that unfortunately doesn't appreciate the horror of the Nazis. But some of the condemnation being levelled at Harry goes a bit overboard.

onenote

[Zynx]

113. I find nothing amusing about a Nazi costume.

There is nothing redeeming about the Nazis. They were the closest thing to pure evil that has ever walked this earth.

[Artemis Bunyon]

133. Charlie Chaplin and Mel Brooks disagree with you.

I think those gentlemen had a pretty good sense of humor.

[sir_captain]

135. Not a completely unfair point

but not also completely intelectually honest. Both films to which you refer portray the Nazis very negatively. There is no indication, even from Prince Harry (whom I will now mention) that suggests that this was his intention.

[Artemis Bunyon]

142. Damn! You're making me break my promise...

(about a post above being my last on the subject)

See, this is what bothers me. In order to assume that Harry's donning of a Nazi uniform wasn't meant to be taken in a humorous way, you have to assume that he meant it as some sort of sincere tribute to the tenets of Germany's "National Socialism" movement.

Do you honestly think Harry is a closet Nazi? The thought that he might be never even crossed my mind, and frankly, it astonishes me that so many people think there's something sinister -- rather than just goofy-stupid -- about his choice in costumes.

I think the last thing any authentic fascist sympathizer (in a position of power) would ever do is to don a Nazi uniform and go out in public.

[sir_captain]

145. Heh, ok, me too

No, I don't think there was anything sinister going on here. I think he's just a dumbass who thought it was funny to wear a Nazi uniform. But that's still not at all the same as what Brooks, and Chaplin, especially, were doing. That's all.

[Zynx]

161. Exactly. If someone wore a Nazi costume to a Halloween party,

I would punch them in the face.

[AP]

163. Chaplin said his greatest regret in....

...life was treating Nazis like they were a joke. (He made the movie before people know the full truth about what the Nazis were doing.)

Given that royalty is already about one step to the left of (and dangerously close to) fascism, he probably should have heeded Chaplin's regret about making jokes about Nazis.

[sonicx]

144. This whole thing reminds me of "South Park"

[ClarkUSA]

157. Heirbrain is the Fool In The Crown

A senior royal dressing up as a Nazi for a laugh? There are a lot of old soldiers out there who will look at these photos and be totally outraged. The Nazis were responsible for the deaths of millions. To turn that into a jokey idea for a fancy dress is an absolute disgrace. To excuse Prince Harry by saying that this was merely a mistake by a naive 20-year-old will not wash. You hardly need a PhD in modern European history to realise that wearing a swastika is immensely offensive.

Prince Harry seems less interested in preparing for a life of royal service than auditioning for the role of village idiot where one could throw a "native and colonials" party without anyone batting an eyelid.

The owner of Maud's Cotswold Costumes told the Sun that Prince Harry looked at SS costumes but "to be honest they all come in small sizes and there was no way any of them would have fitted him". So the prince's father can be grateful that he inherited his mother's height because the third in line to the throne was forced to settle for a lower Nazi rank.

While Harry's costume was shocking, it seems equally astonishing that, in 2005, there is a section of British society in which it is not considered odd for a teenager to throw a party with the theme of "colonial or native" and at which, according to some reports, young male guests blacked up their faces.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hangemhigh]

165. While Mark Thatcher pled guilty to trying to overthrown a foreign country.

I notice the Harry costume story swallowed that one up.