Messed up priorities!!

[TheYellowDog]

People, I was at anti-war protest today getting signatures for a $1 minimum-wage increase ballot iniative, above the current $5.15 minum wage, and a guy working for Amnesty International was there. I told him about the petition and he said, "Why isn't it more"?

I then said that anything more would not pass. He then said well, "if I sign that means that I think that paying people low wages is okay". I then told him well those people making $5.15 would appreciate the money. And that change happens incrementally.

Then he said well "that's not what I believe in. If I sign this then nothing changes. We can't compromise." He then went on and on about how he could not do it morally because it meant that he would be settling for less. I got very angry but kept my cool and walked away.

Another woman yelled at me stating that I "supported slave labor" because we were only having it set at $6.15 an hour.

These people really piss the living shit out of me. These fucking people--and there were plenty of them there--would not sign the fucking petition because it is not like "10 or 12 dollars an hour", something that would never pass on the ballot. They fucking would deny the poorest of New York's workers an extra $40 a week, $160 a month, and $1920 a year because they didn't like the "increase". They CLAIM to care about the poor, well if they refuse to sign then they obviously don't. These people completely ignore the fact that raising the minimum wage to $12/hr right away would put MANY people out of work, it just wouldn't be economically sound.

I am so fucking angry right now. I am just beside myself. I can't stand these people.

[TheYellowDog]

1. kick

:kick:

[QC]

2. I think it's a safe bet that

neither of those people is having to live on minimum wage.

Bill Clinton referred to this sort of thing as "making the perfect the enemy of the good." He's much more diplomatic than I.

[TheYellowDog]

4. I agree

They are probably living comfortably. Typical limousine liberals and/or Greens who put PRINCIPLE above everything else.
:puke: :puke:

[Terwilliger]

3. well that just proves you dont believe in the values you espouse

you hate them? what if they just dont understand? what if you dont understand? maybe you should re-evaluate what you believe in

[TheYellowDog]

6. I never said I hated them

Don't put words in my mouth. But it's obvious you don't care about working families, Terwilliger.

[Terwilliger]

20. no

I think poor working families should get as little out of capitalism as they deserve...hey...you said upping the minimum wage was not economically feasible :shrug:

As long as our system benefits the rich and powerful, poor families wont get squat. Keep voting for Democrats, perpetuate the system that brought us this inequity in the first place.

[lcordero]

5. too true

This is one of those things where a person has to ask for an inch in order to try for that mile later on.

[wtmusic]

7. Sounds like some of the people I encountered

standing on an LA streetcorner protesting the war back in November.

Then, there were the people that came up and shook my hand and said 'thanks'.

Guess it's part of the job.

[ulysses]

8. mind if I ask

the hourly wage upon which you live?

[TheYellowDog]

9. Yes, I do.

It's absolutely none of your business.

[TheYellowDog]

10. But I'm guessing you're the kind

of person I described above, who would deny the working poor a chance at more money.

[ulysses]

11. no.

You're probably right that it's none of my business, but what I *do* deny is the offering of a further pittance to the working poor while the cost of living continues to outstrip it.

I oppose political bandaids that do nothing to actually help the nominal beneficiaries while making those who vote for them feel good about "helping the poor".

[TheYellowDog]

12. What do you propose then, ulysses?

How about we raise the minimum wage to $50/hr. That would throw TONS of people out of work, since their work is not worth that much to the market. You can't dispute that.

[Terwilliger]

19. the market is accepted by capitalist Democrats

who used to be more about truth and social justics, but has devolved into "who has the most money gets my vote"

[TheYellowDog]

23. You can't dispute economics,

Terwilliger. You know perfectly well if you raised the minimum wage to $50/hr that construction workers and cashiers and janitors would be thrown out of work. But you don't care about them, right? Do you only care about principle? Democrats care about PEOPLE over PRINCIPLE. I care about making sure that people make more money per hour, but if you raise the minimum wage that much you are going to screw them all. The minimum wage ideally should be indexed to inflation.

[Terwilliger]

31. "But you dont care about them, right"

obviously not

but of course you do...you Democrats (and Republicans) who've overseen the increase in class separation over the last 50 years in this country dont care about working families...you're trying to drive them out of the middle class all the while making them feel better with their lousy fucking dollar an hour

I think the wages should stay the same so that people will be inspired to throw off the shakcles of their current government.

[TheYellowDog]

37. Well, how noble of you,

to think that wages should stay the same. WELL DO ME A FAVOR! DON'T SPEAK FO HER WORKERS WHO MIGHT NEED THAT EXTRA $1 AN HOUR!

[ulysses]

30. I suggest

that you offer stupid hypothetical alternatives as real arguments.

How about we raise the minimum wage to $50/hr.

Who is suggesting that?

[disgruntella]

15. that's one perspective

Another perspective is that with your opposition you are denying the working poor an extra dollar an hour. Does that make you "feel good about helping the poor?"

(Yes, I am a wise ass.) :kick:

[TheYellowDog]

17. I bet it makes him feel good.

Lots of people could use an extra buck an hour, ulysses. Stop being selfish.

[Terwilliger]

24. the poor will never be helped by people who don't really care about them

[disgruntella]

25. explain how the poor are *not* helped

By an extra dollar an hour. I'm not saying that this increase is adequate - I just don't see how it's harmful.

[Terwilliger]

26. whay wasn't it two?

or 3? shit....wouldn't 8.15 be MUCH better than 6.15? Why not petition for that?

[TheYellowDog]

29. It would cause unemployment

Terwilliger

[Terwilliger]

32. sure yellowdog

and how many of those business owners would be living on the street?

[disgruntella]

34. that's not an explanation. thanks for playing!

Your consolation prize is a case of Turtle Wax. Good night.

[TheYellowDog]

35. Yeah

Terwilliger doesn't care about workers.

[disgruntella]

38. i wouldn't say that

I wouldn't automatically say that a greater increase in the minimum wage (say $2) would automatically throw people out of work. (Economics isn't my field.) However, like you, I don't understand rejecting incremental change just because it is incremental.

[Forkboy]

39. You seem to know a lot about people who dont agree with you

[Terwilliger]

36. see ya!

good luck on what you believe in

[QC]

13. You can ask me.

I'm living on a little over $1,000 a month, with no benefits.

An extra $160 a month would allow me to do some rather nice little things, like get my cavities filled so that my teeth will stop hurting, run the air conditioning, etc.

Obviously, I would rather get an extra grand or two a month, but that $160 would be very helpful, and given a choice between $160 and nothing, I'll take the $160, thank you.

[TheYellowDog]

14. Thank you, QC

You have only proven the hypocrisy that people like ulysses espouse. He voted for Nader and he would deny the poor more money.

[Terwilliger]

22. Nader advocates living wage for every American...Democrats do not

How much has congress incresed its own pay in the years that homelessness has gone up and up and up?

[Terwilliger]

21. so you can stress over keeping enough money for rent with the next

economic downturn?

Do you want to live the rest of your life like that, or are you happy with the lot that our "system" has given you?

[TheYellowDog]

27. PROGRESS

does not come overnight, Terwilliger. You would be wise to learn that. Also, why would you want to deny people like janitors a wage increase? It's beyond me.

[Terwilliger]

33. overnight?

HOW FUCKING LONG HAVE DEMOCRATS BEEN WORKING AT THIS?!?!

[Bushknew]

16. "10 or 12 dollars an hour something that would never pass on the ballot."

"10 or 12 dollars an hour something that would never pass on the ballot."

How do you know it wonÕt pass?

ThatÕs why we vote.

[TheYellowDog]

18. Irrelevant

If it did pass(and it would be bad if it did), and you doubled the minimum wage in one year, you would put literally tens of thousands of people out of work. So then you would really be hurting the poor, because they wouldn't have jobs. Increasing the minimum wage steadily is more economically sound.

[RichM]

28. Your position is not airtight. There's an argument on both sides. So

what you're dealing with is not a situation where you're 100% right and the other guy is dead wrong. Rather, you're in a grey zone called "difference of opinion." True righteous fury isn't justified here. It will just give you an ulcer & you won't win the battle (ie, convince the other person) anyway.

[salin]

40. Had a similar reaction - but with an alternative reaction

drives me crazy when things are a or b; when there is truth to both. Drives me more crazy when folks get so caught up in arguing for a or b that they can not come together for a common solution.

I have lived in high poverty areas on very low wages (all three times, did it in areas that were in high cost of living areas). Was fortunate to have a safety net, and to know that during one of these stints I was in a very strong graduate program - so I assumed (fortunately correctly) that the time put in on dieting on ramon, veggies and mac and cheese, was also investing towards higher wages and more stability. That said - I both know that $1.00 an hour in the short term can make a HUGE difference in the day to day; and I know that $1.00 an hour also can keep one locked in poverty - and in the achievement of the accomplishment can let others off the hook (ala "whew, that problem solved - next priorty?") so that there is no pressure to work towards changes that lead to more than continued subsistance living.

The solution - first in conversations with those arguing the other point - is that YES $1.00 is not enough, but that YES $1.00 an hour in the immediate time can make a difference. That folks concerned need to work on short term AND long range strategies - and need to work together so that reaching the short term and hard but attainable goal does not pull steam away from long range strategies/goals. AND one needs to put those who speak in principles (re: long range) on the spot in terms of enlisting in actual efforts to work towards those ends. Likewise those working on the immediacy needs (and it is an immediacy issue) agree that working towards the long term/range strategies /goals is important - and that after the short term is addressed - the momentum built and public awareness raised will be used to look towards longer term strategies and goals.

But that is just my, slightly less adversarial - and slightly more looking at both the macro and micro together - approach. YMMV.

[QC]

41. Wow--a thoughtful, nuanced approach to a complex issue!

Isn't that against the rules? ;-)

[salin]

42. just call me salmon

not a north westerner - but isn't that the fish that tries to swim upstream ;-)

[disgruntella]

43. aw, shucks, now i feel bad

I now realize that when I feel this aggressive and snarky I should just go flame on Yahoo! Politics.

Which I just did. Now I'm a little more presentable. (Well, maybe after a good night's sleep I will be) ;)

[QC]

44. Actually, I really like the Turtle Wax bit.