Dean: "I don't agree with Al about the DLC."

[tjdee]

Before I'm accused of Dean bashing straight off, I think he's smart to do this, because it's fairly obvious we DO need DLC support. I just think it's kind of weird, considering their treatment of him. But hey, it's "nice to be a centrist for a change", that's what Dean says.


"Friday night, he offered an olive branch to the centrists who have helped pick the Democratic nominee in the last three presidential elections, saying that the party will need their support just as it does labor, Hispanics and other Democratic-leaning constituencies. "I don't agree with Al about the DLC," Dean, referring to a Sharpton attack on the council.

"Sharpton, the New York preacher who thrills partisan crowds with his rhetoric, had just taken on the party moderates, who say some candidates are too liberal to beat Bush.

"Some people don't come to NOW or other places because they have labeled us special interests," Sharpton said. "We are not the special interests. It is the right-wingers that call themselves centrists who are the special interests. We need to stop their stronghold on this party."
<snip>
"Sharpton said the party has lost control of the government during 12 years of leadership by the centrists, and called for an end to appeasing conservative swing voters. That brought the loudest ovation of the night. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=696&e=4&u=/ap/20030712/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_women

[tjdee]

1. 85 views and no one has anything to say?

Interesting.

[synthia]

36. Is anyone surprised?

We were 'useful' to him for awhile. We funded his start. Now he's done with us. Is anyone surprised?

[kentuck]

2. Dean is a centrist

in my opinion. And we need both the left and the centrists to win. This is a smart political statement.

[GeronimoSkull]

3. Dean is the embodiment of all things DLC

What is there to fight about?

[tjdee]

6. There's no fight.....

I'm just curious, after knowing what DU thinks of the DLC, and hearing what Sharpton and Dean said, to hear what they think of this.

[GeronimoSkull]

18. I was referring to the alleged rift between Dean and the DLC

not implying that you were picking a fight :)

Personally, I do not like the DLC and I am highly skeptical of Howard Dean.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

8. GeronimoSkull...re: your name....isn't that what the skull&boners stole?

[GeronimoSkull]

19. yes

indeed

[revcarol]

4. He's mending his fences,

just like he had to do after he mischaracterized other candidates' positions and dissed them.
He is a right-leaning centrist, IMHO. And he will get along well with our military industrial complex. No reduction in the defense budget for him!

Sharpton is right.

[jiacinto]

5. I hate to break it to you

but no Democrat is going to cut the defense budget in these times right now. No Democrats who expects to win will campaign on such a platform.

[mdmc]

7. Dean is the DLC

Why they dislike the "activist" that support Dean is a different story. Someone needs to be in charge of our party: we can choose ANSWR (and their "Green / revolutionary" leanings, or we can choose the DLC (and their Bush lite policies).

I am an activist that supports Dean. I support him because he opposed the war. I will support any of the 9, if they win the nomination. I'll support Clark, Gore, or Hillary if they win the nomination.

Our party is in trouble. We need to build it, or face defeat. We have enemies on the left (Greens have no power, except the power of ideas; their posistions make Dems look like watered down GOP) and on the right (the GOP has honed their message very effectivley).

BRING IT ON!

[tjdee]

10. Are those our only two choices?

Yikes, LOL.

I lean toward ANSWR, but surely there's a middle point between ANSWR and the DLC?

And the DLC actually targeted Dean himself, if I recall, because of the Wellstone phrase (which he changed for the NOW conference), and they said he was for interest group liberalism, as Al Sharpton said.

Maybe they had a talk?

[KittyWampus]

37. 1 Trillion Dollars Recently Went Missing From DoD

And this is after 3.3 Trillion was reported missing from the DoD and HUD earlier this year.

Jiacinto, if any Democratic candidate doesn't bring this up- we are screwed.

EVERY ONE OF US.

We cannot afford to keep throwing money into the Defense Budget Black Hole.

Where the hell is this money going?

This is not embezzlement by a bunch of guys who want golf shoes in every color.

This is TRILLIONS.

Every U.S. taxpayer has lost several thousand dollars and NOONE knows where?

Why should I vote for any Democratic candidate if they won't talk about this?

How can we afford to retool our economy for Green Technology. The window of opportunity is closing before the world's cheap and
easily accessed sweet oil is peaked.

All any Democratic candidate for President would have to say is "lets clean the books at Dept. of Defense before giving them any more money. Losing TRILLIONS is NOT acceptable. Maybe it is for George Bush and his Enron accounting but NOT for Democrats!!!"

[Mairead]

30. I agree: Sharpton is right.

I used to think Lieberman was the rightmost Dem. The more I hear of Dr Dean, the less I think that's true.

[JNelson6563]

9. This is a wise move.

Dean is smart to bring as many into the tent as possible. We need a centrist to win over the swing voters, big backing, the Dem base and any Reps who see the truth about Team Bush. I see Dean as the only one who is marketable to all.

I hope we all can agree that this country has moved to the right in a big way. The powers that be in the Dem party pretty much wrung their hands and put stock in the fact that we had the bully-pulpit of the WH during the Clinton years. This in the face of what can be truly be called a Revolution. I am hesitant to call it a "Republican" one though because "neo-con" would be more accurate. Well, regardless, they did it wearing the costume of Reps through Gingrich, Limbaugh and all the other hate-mongers who literally built careers by working to destroy others. Hate-radio, grass roots organizing and spot-light grabbing neo-cons in Congress--along with a very complicit, corporate owned media sprung up and we did what to counter it? If you find something, let me know. So here we are watching the neo-cons realizing the rewards of their efforts and trying to reclaim some power. Many are enjoying the idea that we can undo this all by finding and electing the person who perfectly embodies our liberal ideals in 2004. Wake up, happy daydream over.

Yes, many here are lefties, I too am left of Dean on some issues as I was with Clinton. I also am a realist. I know we control absolutely nothing. This will forever be the case if we try to elect a candidate that perfectly fits our leftist views. No, for a very large country that is so far right, well we must move a bit more gradually than many would like. It reminds me of moving a really big piece of furniture from one side of a large room to the other. Would you not do it unless you could figure out a way to get it there in one big push? Or would you deal with it realistically by inching it over?

Just my .02--
Julie

[polpilot]

12. Dean...inching it over...n/t

[nannah]

39. difference is what brings voters out to vote

We need a centrist to win: Isn't this the "strategy" that failed the dems in 2002??

A book I read some years ago called "The Empty Voting Booth" (I think) said that more people vote when there is a real difference among candidates; they tend to stay home when they don't see much difference. One of the most striking elements of the last two years has been the lack of meaningful difference between the dems and republicans. sure their are occassional skirmishes in the press and a speech or two, but no expression of difference that has resulted in meaningful action.

i believe most people would welcome a real choice in 2004.

[JNelson6563]

51. so am I to assume

you view an election between Dean and the Simian as no real choice? Do you consider the Simian a centrist?

Julie

[kentuck]

11. Basically, it's not about DLC or liberal -

It's about standing for principle. Not waffling and going along with Repubs just because you might think it is popular and the politically correct thing to do.

[tjdee]

15. That's not what I read at DU.

I agree with you. Dean is a centrist, and he would be an idiot to throw the DLC down the toilet. In fact, that has been one of my misgivings about him.

I posted this because that is NOT what I read at DU regularly. At DU I read what Al Sharpton said. It's like Sharpton channeled 90% of DUers into that speech, and Dean, whom 90% of DUers support, said "I disagree." I think that is worth a bit of discussion.

Maybe we can reevaluate the worth of the DLC.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. I think it is important to distiguish centrists voters from the DLC

I happen to think many left issues are appealing to centrists.

[Terwilliger]

17. then...what makes them centrist?

lack of conviction? NOT A SLAM! Im trying to figure out what "centrist" means, and what people who would call themselves that actually want.

[tjdee]

21. I think people use them interchangeably.

Maybe we can get down to what differentiates centrists from the DLC.

I think it's as simple as some centrists agree with some things the DLC says, disagree with some others. Everyone is different.

[GeronimoSkull]

26. I don't have a problem with centrism so much

I do have a problem with corporatism, which Dean seems to fully embrace.

[iH8repukes]

14. Bush wins in landslide if dems don't wake up.

A liberal such as Dean has no chance of winnning the 50% of the country that votes "moderate" or "centrist" in each election.

We absolutely, positively MUST have a centrist candidate if we want any chance at all of unseating Bush. Those of you who think the country will turn against Bush and vote for ANY democrat are drinking your own whiskey.

Gore in '04

[tjdee]

16. Dean is not a liberal, IMO. n/t

[haymaker]

54. You arer wrong.

Sorry to tell you. Dean will win.

[THUNDER HANDS]

20. I've always been curious about something

If Republicans don't need to run a centerist candidate, why do we?

[tjdee]

22. They do.

The GOP couldn't run Tom Delay.

They couldn't run Pat Buchanan.

What their people do is campaign on 'compassionate conservatism', and then rule/administer as right wing as they want. They're shameless about their lies/actions.

[KittyWampus]

40. The GOP Run EXTREMISTS

Who wrap themselves in moderate clothing.

It is all about packaging. Image is everything.

It is not enough to have a winning message... you have to present it properly.

Now I have said innumerable times on DU that the Left needs to pick a Populist candidate who can market their message so that people won't take "he's a communist" bait.

But it's pretty much like spitting in the wind.

[revcarol]

23. BINGO!!

You won the jackpot!!

Why DO we?

[iH8repukes]

24. Strong defense, low taxes, smaller government IS centrist.

Repukes run on these three issues election after election. Many, many dems such as myself like those same issues and want our candidates to be there too. The problem is, when repukes get in, they become right wing whackos on abortion, gun control, etc. which makes me hate them.

[Terwilliger]

27. you dont think we have a strong defense?

since when?? hell, during the Civil War we probably could have driven off an invading force. Now our defense budget dwarves the GDP of a good chunk of the planet. How about a strong educational system and universal health care?

Oh, thats an even BIGGER pip...you want a strong defense but lower taxes and smaler government? Is that what centrism is? A walking contradiction in terms?

[iH8repukes]

31. Okay, you define centrism.

Our educational system is broken. Test scores are going down. All the money in the world won't fix the system until we establish standards across the entire country and hold teachers accountable for results. Universal health care? No thank you. We have the best medical system in the world and I don't want the government fucking with it. Now if you want to talk about healthcare insurance, then we might find something to agree on. I would like all companies to have to provide health covererage.

Gore in '04

[AnAmerican]

34. You have got to be kidding

"We have the best medical system in the world and I don't want the government fucking with it."

The "best medical system in the world" with millions underinsured or uninsured?? Does not sound like the best to me.

On the other hand, the World Health organization has ranked the French, with nationalized healthcare, as the best.

When American citizens avoid medical care because of the outrageous cost, something is seriously wrong. When the pharmaceutical companies grow bloated by charging obscene prices for needed meds, something is seriously wrong.

The citizens of this country deserve the best, we will not have it until a nationalized system is instituted.

A mere reworking of a failed system is not gonna do it. We need to be bold in our thinking. Lets make healthcare a priority for Americans....for American CITIZENS, not corporations.

[Terwilliger]

35. I can't define centrism...I dont know what would motivate someone

but lets look at your ideas:

I don't want the government fucking with it

AND

I would like all companies to have to provide health covererage.

HAVE TO?!?!? Isn't that "government fucking with it"? :shrug:

[CWebster]

53. Centrists buy the language

Its all about the language--smaller government less taxes--you know the drill. When it comes to the details, the reality, well it just never gets that far in this country, because the dominating mindset of right-wing soundbytes prevails.

Its bizarre, the way Republicans take pains to portray themselves as liberal or compassionate and Democrats are advised they must be "strong on defense". It's like some kind of dark comedy. Republicans moderate to sell themselves because they know they are mean-hearted and Democrats moderate themselves because Republicans rule the perceptions of the dumbed-down. And this country is dumb. I have been abroad, and it strikes me that the value system is much more mature in other countries.

So, I don't know how you win in this country and not play the game that these times require.

As far as centrists go, I don't think there was any doubt that Dean was anything other than exactly what he laid out from the start. A few things about him cause me to pause, but it is more than just the politics--it is the combination of factors, and especially his backbone. He is tough and intelligent, and I have to admit I prefer his brand of moderate than Clinton's waffling and indecisive, charming, but somewhat slimy centrism.

[ibegurpard]

25. they DID run a centrist candidate...

...he just lied about or obscured his positions on EVERYTHING during the campaign.

[MercutioATC]

55. Bush campaigned as a centrist.

He had Cheney to pull in the right-wing support. Not until he was elected did he swing way to the right.

[hedda_foil]

28. Hold on a minute ....

Dean isn't a DLC-style, no principles centrist. He isn't a Kucinich-style liberal. He isn't a conservative either. The DLC has a funny definition of "centrism" which boils down (in action at least) to risk-aversion.

Yes, Dean was a "New Democrat" as a governor BUT he was also the governor of a state that absolutely required that he be more responsive to the electorate than to outside interests. That doesn't mean he satisfied everyone in Vermont, because clearly he didn't. But he won re-election 5 times in a very small and liberal state where they can sniff out phoneys in a New York minute.

He's running on his own principles ... and he's not letting the DLC dictate what he should do, how he should do it, or what special interests he should cater to.

What are those principles? I'd classify him as a true moderate Democrat. Not as left as I am. Not as left as many of his supporters (all of whom know that he's not a flaming liberal by the time they read his website or leave their first meetup). Certainly not as far right as the DLC has moved in these latter days of their discontent. And obviously not given to the passivity they urge upon their chosen candidates.

Dean is attracting supporters that range from Greens to moderate Republicans and Libertarians because he makes sense and he's a straight-shooter. He's his own man, and that's tremendously attractive in a candidate and in a president. And in the narrowed terms of today's debate, he really defies classification, which is driving his detractors absolutely crazy.

I've seen a lot of candidates in my 58 years, particularly since I became politically aware at the age of 7. I've always been a liberal and I've moved even farther left with age. In all that time, there have only been three candidates for the presidency who I felt passionately about ... JFK, RFK and Howard Dean. Why Dean and not Kucinich? Because I truly believe that Dean has what it takes to govern in this terrible time and place in our nation's history ... honesty, integrity, passion, a lack of cant, the ability to listen to the people and respond to their call, a clear eye and a steady hand. The ability to say no when it's needed, and explain his reasons, whether or not people disagree with him. The ability to change his mind in the face of compelling evidence ... and explain his reasons, whether or not people disagree with him.

We may well need the next president to be up to the standards of FDR. We're facing terrible economic times, which will only worsen as a result of the *residency. We have suffered terrible damage to our international prestige and credibility. We will be involved in at least one unnecessary war and probably more than one, with casualties continuing to mount. The energy and environmental crises will become even more extreme.

And, we will still be a nation divided by the vicious hatred, fear and distrust that * regime has fostered so aggressively. Our wounds must be bound up. Our true problems faced. New solutions will be needed and old solutions abandoned. We need, in short, a man like Howard Dean. Fortunately, he has presented himself at this time.

Will he succeed? Who knows. Am I right in my assessment? Who knows. But I firmly believe that he's the only candidate who might just fill the bill.

Only time will tell.

[ibegurpard]

29. Agree with you hedda.

I can live with Dean...and so can the enraged former Bush supporter who was the host of my recent Dean meetup.

[Upfront]

32. Hedda your right

and I could not agree with you more. I to have been around awhile. 62 years, and like you Dean is one of three you mentioned that excites me. I like his guts, he is calling out awol on every lie he tells. This guy can win and will win, I just know it. He will be a great President! We need to elect some democratic congressmen to help him strighten out the Bush mess. Go Dean!

[tjdee]

33. That's fine--BUT.

That's totally, totally fine.

As I said, I think this is a smart choice for him--but I wonder how smart his supporters think it is, considering what they think of the DLC. Sharpton said everything about the DLC that I read here every day, and Howard Dean disagrees with that. I wanted to see what people, thought.

[JNelson6563]

41. There are a lot of folks

who are Dean supporters that admit they wish he was more of a liberal but, because they are talking a realistic approach to our situation, they are OK with what differences there are.

I think too it would be wise to consider a few recent events. We had a rift between Dean and the DLC. Suddenly Dean's campaign rides a wave of cash, Dean is now, officially, in The Big Leagues. Before it was easy for Big People to pooh-pooh him as a (whatever) and not consider him too much of a threat.

Seven and a half million dollars changes things. A lot. Even to those mooks down at the DLC. ;-)

Julie

[TLM]

42. I don’t like the DLC.

However I do like that Dean is not getting pulled into an ongoing conflict with them, which I think is what they wanted when they attacked Dean and the activist left in our party. By playing nice with the DLC now, if and when they try you attack Dean as too liberal or divisive, they're going to look like the assholes.

And we also need to draw a distinction between a moderate democrat and a centrist.

A moderate Democrat, which is what Dean is, is someone who is in the middle of the left wing of our party. Whereas a centrist is someone who is right in the middle of both parties, neither left nor right.

The DLC is centrist, where Dean is a moderate Democrat. Dean knows he will have to appeal to centrists in order to win, and issue like gun control, balanced budget, and education are centrist issues. However, Dean will also have to appeal to the far left to win. The skill is in being able to appeal to both groups without alienating one or the other.

I think what Dean is doing now is laying the groundwork to do just that. He has issues like civil unions, universal health care, and corporate reform that all appeal to the far left, while not being so extreme as to drive off the centrists, and likewise he has gun control policy, budget policy, and education policy that will appeal to the center without being so far right as to drive off the far left.

And I really like the fact that Dean is being Dean… he is not shifting and acting like he is more liberal for the NOW crowd and less liberal for the Iowa farmers.

[Capn Sunshine]

43. There are plenty of progressives in the DLC

There are FIVE at last count "DLC for DEAN" organizations amongst our membership. What is CENTRIST about the DLC is the progressive message we offer together with a philosophy that attempts to transcend the right-left squabbles.

WHAT IS NOT CENTRIST about the DLC is the cadre of right wingers led by Al From and Joe Lieberman , who have moved their definition of "center " so far to the right that it makes Howard Dean look "leftist"

Within the DLC our rallying cry has become
"I want my CENTER back!!!"

[hedda_foil]

44. Good for you!

BTW, are you the DLCer formerly known as Lorelei?

[Capn Sunshine]

52. That's me Hedda

You must have missed my announcement in the lounge:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=821&mesg_id=821&listing_type=search


Syntax is almost as recognizable as a fingerprint IMO :)

I understand some of my anti-From diatribes have been distributed nationally

Here's one from TomPaine.com:

http://www.tompaine.com/letters/

scroll down to "DLC Division is Within As Well"
:)

[TLM]

47. You are correct...

The problem is not the DLC as a whole. It is the few people in leadership rolls who want to move the group to the right.

[Cocoa]

38. this *could* be Dean's "get over it"

people could say "Dean sold out Sharpton", they could say "now I'll NEVER vote for Dean," etc. etc.

[TLM]

45. How do you figure that he sold sharpton out?

I think the mistake Sharpton is making is that he is attacking the centrists in a way that will drive them off, like we don't need them. He's setting up a fight between he left and the middle, rather than the left and the right.

Dean is saying we need the middle, and the left, if we're going to beat Bush. We're not going to beat Bush by being Bush light, nor are we going to beat him by being extremist left either.

We need to run right down the middle of the democratic party, to bring the far left and the center together to go after W.

[Cocoa]

48. I'm not saying it

I agree completely with what you're saying, and I'm not at all surprised Dean is saying this, based on other things I've heard him say.

I was commenting on how easy it would be to turn a single quote into a total denial of any redeeming value in the man.

If I chose to do it, I could take this story and trash Dean in a million different ways. But I won't, since I like him. :-)

[Classical_Liberal]

46. Why has this not happened

maybe because we all know that just be not demonizing leftests, and by probably winning the nomination and the Presidency. The From faction are gonners.

[CWebster]

49. He does what he has to do.

politics. If you don't like it, go into social work.

[poskonig]

50. Has Dean changed *any* of his positions as a result of this?

This conversation is BULLSHIT.

[tjdee]

56. Oh, here we go.

I knew somebody would get the wrong idea.
No one is saying anything about Dean's actions.

I found it interesting that Sharpton could have been anyone at DU talking about the DLC, and Dean disagrees with him, which I thought was interesting considering how the DLC had treated him. I was wondering what people thought of that. It IS a discussion board, isn't it?

This thread is bullshit because........thou shalt not post anything about Dean that isn't completely loving? Or what?

I SAID I thought it was a wise decision, geez!

:eyes: