what is wrong with our public schools?

[ulysses]

Soliciting opinions here - I certainly have my own ideas, but what do *you* think is wrong and how would you fix it?

[flamingyouth]

1. I think teachers aren't paid enough, for one thing

(Not just saying that to butter up the poster here ;) )

And beyond that, it's hard for me to say, as I graduated 19 years ago and don't have any kids of my own. But I do have lots of friends with kids in public schools, and it seems like the one thing they all say is that the teachers are overworked and underpaid.

[ulysses]

4. LOL!

You can butter me up any time. :D

I have to agree, but then I'd expect me to.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

22. A lot of people want to be teachers

That keeps their price down.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Where are these lots of people?

We are currently facing the most critical teacher shortage in our country's history. Maybe a lot of people want to become teachers, but they are changing their mind before they finish college.

[Sabriel]

85. There's a surplus in certain areas and subjects

But in general, urban areas have a desperate shortage, along with math and science, also special ed.

Add to that the horrendous attrition rate, and there you have it. As I tell the education students every year, "Look around the room. In less than ten years, half of you will be out of the classroom, doing something else."

[AliciaKeyedUp]

100. Urban areas have lots of problems

The teaching profession doesn't lack for teachers, but they all want to work in nice schools and safe neighborhoods.

[Lindacooks]

108. "They all want to work in nice schools and safe neighborhoods."

LOL - you think????????????? Sheesh.

For pete's sake, everybody wants to live in a safe neighborhood and work and learn in a nice school. The problem is, with Repukes from Reagan on decimating public school funding and funding of our infrastructure, there are decreasing numbers of 'nice schools and safe neighborhoods'.

And teachers are paid crap, plus most of them spend their own money on many school supplies.

You get the country you pay for! We're already seeing the effects of not properly funding schools - and the idiot in the White House is just one of them.

[Yupster]

114. But schools are way better funded today

than they ever were in the 1970's.

Teacher salaries have made tremendous advances in the last 20 years.

In fact so have restrictions on class sizes.

Many states today have limits on class sizes which they follow haphazardly.

When I went to school in the 70's there were no such restrictions. Every classroom had 30 + students including the very low grades.

I don't know what the answer is to so many kids not learning very well, but seeing how funding has gone up so much, I just can't see that the answer is underfunding.

[Lindacooks]

197. Funding has NOT gone up 'so much'

And class sizes are back to 30+ kids in many school districts.

In Oregon, for instance:

"2001-2002 -- State income tax revenues begin precipitous DECLINE as interest rates and the values of state and personal investments drop. Legislature meets in special session five times in 2001 and 2002 as the financial situation worsens.
Fifth special legislative session held in Sept. 2002 refers 3-year state income tax increase to voters at a special election Jan. 28, 2003. In all, revenues have fallen $1.8 billion (17%) from what lawmakers expected they would be when they approved the 2001-2003 state budget in July 2001. This means, even if voters approve the income tax increase, revenues will fall $126 million short of paying for 2001-2003 approved state programs. The shortfall comes on top of $310 million in budget cuts scheduled to take effect if voters reject the temporary income tax increase."

"K-12 spending as a share of Oregonians' personal income FELL from 4.6 percent to 4.2 percent while total personal income in the state increased annually by 5.7 percent."

http://www.osba.org/hotopics/funding/history.htm

In California:

"Another year of financial difficulty for the state of California led to the suspension of Proposition 98's minimum funding guarantee for public education."

http://www.edsource.org/edu_fin_glance.cfm

And in Minnesota:

"Any increase for the state's financially strapped schools is better than none. But the bad news comes when you dig into the details of his plan; turns out that the 4 percent he claims to add to the state per-pupil formula over two years actually is 1.5 percent over two years -- because much of what he gives with one hand, he takes away with the other. As school leaders across the state have said, that is not enough to help districts catch up after several years of frozen state help and staff-reducing budget cuts.

In addition to under financing public schools, the governor's general K-12 policies have begun to fundamentally change the state commitment to investing in and supporting school children."

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5215081.html

[phylny]

247. I left public schools three years ago.

Not so much because of the salary, which was just okay, but because my caseload was unreasonable.

I'm a speech-language pathologist, and work in special ed. The year before I left, my caseload was 59 children - way too many children to service, especially when you're responsible for screening, evaluation, and consultation. It was way too difficult.

The workload for teachers and those in public school is way too much, and the burnout is guaranteed.

One final note: I have had three children in public school (oldest is in college now) and they've had exceptional teachers and have learned a great deal. I am a happy customer.

[LWolf]

262. Psst....

Every last classroom in my very large district of more than 24,000 elementary students is sitting at 30+, including our kindergartens.

We had "class size reduction" in grades k-3 for a few years; it was a partially funded program. My district repealed it because the construction fund didn't keep up with population growth, and because it was never fully funded to begin with. In the face of budget cuts and overcrowding, they did away with any and all efforts to reduce class size 2 years ago.

[FreedomAngel82]

278. I remember in a

math class once the classroom had around 30 people and the room wasn't as big as some others on the floor so we were lucky we had enough desks. Some days one person wouldn't be there so another person lucked out.

[LWolf]

296. One year, about 8 years ago, I started with 45 kids.

For the first 3 months of school, until another teacher was hired. We were all that overcrowded, so hiring one teacher took us down to about 38 kids each. These were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd graders; a multi-age class.

I had 38 desks. That meant that 7 kids had to sit on the floor. I went out and bought (out of my pocket), 7 cool "lap desks" that sat on their laps and had storage on each side. Every day a different 7 kids got the floor and the lap desks. Because they were different, and no one was forced to sit on the floor all the time, the kids loved it when it was "their turn." I did have upset parents; the upset was legitimate, of course. How we were supposed to get anything done with 45 1st, 2nd, and 3rd graders crammed into a room with just me was a true problem.

My son's freshman year in high school there were 42 people assigned to his algebra 2 class. There were only 30 desks; the kind bolted to the floor, so there was no moving things around to make more room. The teacher sat the kids alphabetically, and the last 12 in the alphabet stood at the back of the room. There were only 30 text books, so the first 3 weeks he had no book. Then they borrowed books from a school across town; a different book than the teacher was using, or assigning from. The 45 minute math period consisted of attendance, homework correction, lecture, and a new homework assignment. The teacher had time to take 3 questions, and if you didn't understand, and weren't one of the 3, oh well.

There is never enough money in the state school construction budget to keep up with population growth, and local districts have to come up with half the money to build new schools themselves. Overcrowding is a fact of life. Now with the rest of the budget suffering massive cuts, increasing class size and cutting all support services is a way to balance the budget, as well.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

161. Teachers are not paid crap

They get well paid and they get excellent benefits and pensions. You clearly have an odd idea of "crap."

[OKNancy]

168. Starting salary in Oklahoma

is $27,000. After a masters it goes up, but to hit a living wage a teacher has to work 10 to 15 years. The only way to make it as a teacher is to be married and have another wage earner in the family.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

208. Starting salary for many things is less

And they don't get a 10-month work year and a nice pension.

[OKNancy]

228. Not exactly 10 months

In my state a teacher must continue their education so they go to grad school during the summer, and of course most must get a summer job to support themselves on their huge salaries.

I think most people agree that teachers are not paid enough. In fact even the Republican governors we have had in the past have said as much.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

234. As I said before

I think most people think they aren't paid enough. It's a common theme in life.

[phylny]

251. I'm really well paid for what I do.

Wasn't the case in public school, but it sure is the case now. I do less work and make more money doing a similar job.

There's a real misconception about school teachers, how much they make, and how much free time they have off. When I worked in a school, I had to bring home work every night, and every weekend. I prepared reports and scored evaluations and did lesson plans and made up materials while I was "off work."

Compare it to my husband who made MUCH MORE than I did at the time, and he never, ever had to take work home from the office.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

266. Your husband is a lucky guy

I don't know anyone who is that lucky. Everyone I meet brings work home.

[phylny]

272. He is lucky, but he's also

very disciplined. He works very hard at work, but does work AT work.

I, on the other hand, am still working on monthly paperwork - at 12:43 a.m. :(

[FreedomAngel82]

279. My dad is a civil engineer

and he's 90% of the time bringing something home to read unless he's doing some outside project.

[hughee99]

274. At $27,000...

for 180 day school year and 8 hours a day, a teacher makes $18.75/hour. My old roommate was a Social Studies teacher in Massachusetts, and before he had even passed his teacher's test (a state requirement) he was making $34,000/year. The school day was 7 1/2 hours, 3 hours of which he had "prep" period for. Although he had this time do actually do prep, he used it doing other (usually non-work related) things. He would come home at night and grade papers for 1-2 hours, and complain to me about his workload. He felt that he was underpaid. He was also upset that he had to get a summer job. I tried to explain that he was getting $25/hour for his work, which he had yet to prove that he was qualified to do. At the time, I was a newly hired software engineer, making the same as him, putting in 60+ hour weeks. At the end of the year, I would make quite a bit more, but I didn't have 8 weeks in the summer, a week in December, a week in February, and a week in April off. I can't speak to the plight of teachers around the country, but I found it hard to sympathize with him.

[Blue_Roses]

181. As someone who works

as a substitute teacher, I can tell you, teachers are underpaid.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

209. I think people in most fields other than the high end would say

that THEY are underpaid.

So what?

[DrGonzoLives]

193. Really?

My mother teaches at a rural school, has done so for 25+ years now.

I make more in my first job out of grad school then she does. Around 10K a year more. But, yeah, they get wonderful pay.

Pensions? Most teachers see their pensions dwindling right now.

Any reason you're so willing to buy into standard GOP teacher-hating propaganda?

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

212. I don't hate teachers

But I don't worship them either. It's a profession. So is the police department, fire services, military, etc. We need them all and teachers are the least risky of the four.

So what do you do for a living?

And there is a huge difference between saying they aren't paid badly to saying they are paid well.

The pensions might be dwindling, but point me to people in the private sector who even encounter the concept of pensions.

[ulysses]

215. odd comparison.

Yes, teaching is less risky than being a police officer, fireman/woman or soldier. At the same time, it's more risky than being, say, the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Last I heard, those folks are paid quite well. What's your point?

Personally, I'd love to see everyone in public service receive a very substantial raise.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

218. I compared PUBLIC sector jobs

Private sector jobs clearly pay what the market will bear.

Comparing teachers to the others I listed leaves teachers doing pretty well, working 10 months a year and not having any substantial risk to their lives.

[ulysses]

221. most teachers I know

routinely take part-time jobs or work summer school in the summer to make ends meet. Besides which, how many hours worth of work do you suppose a police officer takes home each night after his or her shift ends?

The public/private sector thing is hooey.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

222. These are all people we pay with taxes

Some of them risk their lives every single day. Others do not.

Teaching is still considered white collar type employment.

As for police and the others, their job NEVER ends. They don't get homework necessarily, they just get to carry their gun and risk their lives if they see a crime at any time, anywhere.

The people we don't pay with taxes earn what the market is willing to pay them. The teachers, police, etc. have that choice.

[ulysses]

223. we pay them with taxes because we have to have them

in order to have a civilized society. *All* of them. As I say, I'd love to see *all* those in the public sector get a raise.

As for police and the others, their job NEVER ends. They don't get homework necessarily, they just get to carry their gun and risk their lives if they see a crime at any time, anywhere.

Indeed. I work in a crime-troubled urban neighborhood too, except that I don't carry a gun. I carry a Sharpie, three bagloads of books and what I have in my head about how to reach troubled, learning-disabled kids. I spend my days and nights trying to come up with ways to keep my kids from becoming the adults that the police will have to face tomorrow or five years from now.

The people we don't pay with taxes earn what the market is willing to pay them. The teachers, police, etc. have that choice.

Yes, but some of us still do it because it needs to be done in order, as I say, for us to have a civilized society. "The market" is not everything. I'll hold what I do, what proud2Blib does, what LWolf does, what Maestro does, up against your average F-500 CEO any damned day of the week.

Teaching is a profession and should be paid as such.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

225. No, the market isn't everything

I never claimed it is. However, we can't compare private and public sector jobs. That's apples and oranges.

So, where would this "raise" come from for ALL public sector employees? As far as I know, we have a major national debt and deficit.

I commend you for trying to teach. But you chose to do it and knew what it paid, knew that it had nice benefits, knew that it has a pension, knew that it didn't require you to get shot at, etc. That is the choice you made.

I won't bother trying to compare what a CEO does to what you do because I doubt I would do a good job. I just know there are only a few hundred thousand such people in the world who are capable of running companies, so it much be a pretty unique skill.

Teaching is a profession and it is paid as such.

[phylny]

254. My husband has worked for the same company for

23 years. It's a huge corporation. He gets a pension when he retires.

[Yupster]

268. He's a rarity today

Most companies have moved from defined benefit plans (pensions) to defined contribution plans. The reasoning is simple.

Once you leave, the company wants to give you your money and say bye. A company may be in the business of making backhoes. It is not in the business of sending out pension checks every month to hundreds of thousands of people, keeping track of who has a new address, who is changing their names, who needs estate documents sent in and running down 600 returned checks each month.

If your husband works in the private sector and still has a pension, he is a rare bird.

I don't blame companies for the switch either. It just makes sense for them. I think many people like 401 (k)'s better anyway. They're portable for one thing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

238. You have an odd idea

of well paId.

I have as much education as my cousin who is a doctor. Same number of college hours, same number of years of schooling.

She makes more than three times what I do. Her annual malpractice premium is higher than my yearly salary.

An accountant fresh out of college makes more than a teacher. An MBA out of business school can make more than twice as much as a teacher with a master's degree. If he has a job while working on his master's in business, chances are his employer has paid his tuition. That is rare in education.

Teachers pay horrendously high premiums for health insurance. I had a neighbor several years ago who worked on an assembly line and had the exact same health plan from the same health insurance company that I did. She paid $40 a month for family coverage; I paid $200. My district is one of the 5 largest employers in the community where I live. The last two times our health insurance contract has been put up for bid, only ONE provider put in a bid. Health insurance companies don't like us and they charge us exhorbitantly for their coverage. Those aren't excellent benefits, not by a long shot.

In MO, teachers in every district but two pay no social security so they are unable to draw it upon retirement unless they work part time jobs to build up an SS account. This is typical in many states. That is not an excellent pension. Those of us who retire with a decent income do so because we have purchased our own annuity plans. I have a friend who is a retired teacher and lives in senior citizens subsidized housing where rent is based on income. Her rent is $1 (yes, that's ONE dollar) a month. She does NOT have an excellent pension and she taught for 30 years.

You have an odd idea of well paid.

[Yupster]

269. Does Missouri not have a Teacher Retirement System?

Texas is considered a sorry state for pensions, but a teacher with 30 years in here would get 69 % of the average of her three best years for the rest of her life. The legislature usually passes a COLA every two years.

Are you sure she didn't take her pension out at some point?

I can't believe another state's teacher pension system would be that much worse than Texas'?

[proud2BlibKansan]

281. Yes they do

But the teachers do not pay into ss.

Two districts in the state have a seperate independent retirement fund. Those teachers do pay into ss.

[Yupster]

284. So then your friend is getting

approx 69 % of her pay as a pension which is a heck of a lot more than most people get, and double what a retiree gets from social security.

So how can she be destitute?

What am I missing?

[proud2BlibKansan]

306. She wasn't in the state retirement system.

She worked in one of the two districts not part of it. And she has been retired over 10 years so I would imagine her plan is very different from what we have today.

[LWolf]

264. Here's my idea of "crap."

I am as far over on the salary schedule as I can go. I'm 10 years down from the top, and about to hit the end of yearly increases. I won't finish paying off the student loans for my credential until next December.

My son has worked his current job for 3 years. It required no college. He made more money than I did in 2004. He worked fewer hours. He spent not one damn dime on supplies. He did not have to do any hours of training, classes, paperwork, or certification to keep the job. He did not have to put the time in to earn degrees, or give up a paying job so he could pay a university to work for a school for free for 18 weeks, with no guarantee of a job at the end.

Nothing out of pocket, no extra hours, no college required; just more $$$. In his 3rd year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. Not true

I am rather fond of the 90 year old building I teach in which is in a pretty lousy neighborhood.

[ulysses]

157. I got a recruiting letter yesterday

from a pretty wealthy suburban district north of Atlanta. They want me to come interview even though I'm not finished with the first year of my alternative certification program in the Atlanta PS. Why? Because there's a shortage.

For that matter, why do school districts even have alternative certification programs? Because there's a shortage.

For the time being, at any rate, I'm staying where I am. They'll have an easier time filling positions up there than the APS would have filling my current spot downtown. But there is a shortage.

[DrGonzoLives]

195. You mean

you're not some selfish, greedy asshole who wants to work in the nicest neighborhood and school? Why, that's astounding! And here I though all teachers were jerks.

[ulysses]

204. actually, I'm a real bastard.

I do have my altruistic moments, though. ;-)

[FreedomAngel82]

280. I remember there for a while

here in Tennessee some teachers in my area was leaving for Georgia schools. I guess they have better payments and how they are with their teachers.

[FreedomAngel82]

277. Definietly on urban areas

Right before the election MTV2 had some hiphop special where two rappers were in a very urban area and talking to people there. They showed homes very run down and pitiful. Then they got to the school. The school was the same. Window's had hole's in it from objects being thrown, not enough desk's (and those were in poor quality too), not every child had a desk, children had to share books sometimes so they couldn't each do their homework, they didn't have proper A.C./heating, not enough lunches, some children didn't ride the bus. It was really pathetic. The thing is the public worry more about private schools then funding public education. I knew in high school lots of really bright and talented in the mind kids and there just wasn't enough challenges for them. When they were senior's if they were advanced they could take college freshmen level writing courses but that'd be it or they could take a few classes at the local community college. My high school when I was there from 1997-2001 was pretty good up until 2000 then, for whatever reason, I started noticing changes of the school more. It started going down hill. In artistic programs even. About a year ago here the public school system was talking about cutting out music programs and public school bus transportation. They already cut resource officers down on school campuses. :\

[NEOBuckeye]

117. Shortage? What Teacher Shortage??? Sure wish I knew where.

Sorry, but I don't see it. Maybe because I live in Ohio, where our funding system for education is royally screwed up. From what I understand, the entire Midwest from here to Minnesota is more or less like this.

On the other hand, maybe Ohio is just an odd exception. But you do have something like 20 to 30 people here fresh out of college all vying for the same 1 or 2 open positions each year. Or maybe I was just stupid for taking up Social Studies, even though I have absolutely no athletic ability, and even less of a desire to coach football and teach kids history by VCR.

My counselor told my class the same thing you said, that within 5 to 10 years, half of us wouldn't even be teachers. He didn't say anything about not even being able to get your foot in the door here. It's ridiculous.

[Yupster]

124. Hang in there NEO

I was in the same position, a social studies prospective teacher who didn't want to coach. Some interviews the principal (with coach next to him) just looked incredulous. "You want to teach history and you don't coach?" I think the next line he wanted to say but didn't is, "so why are you here then?"

The school year started with out me having a job. I took one as a newspaper reporter instead. Then once school started and teachers got moved up to assistant principal, I got the call and started about three days into the year.

What a year from hell that was.

The next eight years went much better.

You know all that the professors said about making the students comfortable and breaking the ice with them the first few days? It's all crap. They'll see you a mile away and know you're brand new and an easy mark. I spent my whole first year saying, "okay now, settle down class."

My second year I was prepared and was a good teacher.

Anyways, good luck to you. My experience was over twenty years ago. Hope things are much better today.

[NEOBuckeye]

143. Well, I don't know that things are any better today

But considering that I almost didn't survive my student teaching experience, I think I'm pretty well prepared now. My supervising teacher at the high school where I started my student teaching just so happened to be the head football coach. Up until I arrived, he had been teaching the kids by movies and extremely light reading lessons. As I said, not exactly my style preference.

When I took over and tried to actually teach something, things got out of hand very fast. The kids didn't respect me at all, and when I needed backup, the coach was out doing reconnaissance of some kind for next Friday's game. Administration there was totally worthless. When a couple of students got so bad that I had to send them out of the room to the office, the assistant principal would bring them back 10 minutes later, telling me to "work with them", and destroying what little authority I might have had. Nothing felt worse for me than those moments, and the kids saw it and capitalized on it. They realized at that point that they could practically get away with murder, much less listen to a green guy not far removed from high school himself.

My supervising professor from the university, when he came out to visit, was so shocked by what he saw, he told me that he had never seen anything like my chaotic classes during his 30+ years of teaching. He honestly didn't know what to tell me other than to try to teach and survive.

At any rate, I managed to survive five weeks of that hell, though instruction of any kind was impossible. I finally arrived at the school one day, felt this overwhelming sickness as I walked through the front entrance, and as I felt my stomach cramping up, walked straight down the side hallway and outside of the school through the side entrance. I climed into my car and drove away from that building as fast as I could.

Fortunately, I did manage to receive another assignment within the same school system, at one of its' more "suburbanesque" schools, which turned out to be a much better experience for me. My supervising teacher there was strictly an instructor-type and hadn't been a coach for years. I learned quite a bit from him, but maybe even more by observing the contrast in school environments and students.

I eventually made it through the rest of my student teaching experience, graduated and took a corporate desk job just to get away from education, to clear my head and see if it was something I really wanted to do. I did that for a year, came back, subbed at a number of different area schools, and enjoyed just about every minute of it. But I have yet to find a full-time job. I haven't give up yet, though. I realize now that I'd much rather be teaching and working with kids than working in the corporate world.

[Yupster]

146. Best of wishes

What I learned was that there is only one important skill in teaching and that is managing the classroom.

I went in my second year with an organized "Assertive Discipline " program and didn't deviate from it all year. I realized my career depended on it.

It worked well for me. The class was orderly, and the kids liked it much better too.

I think any of the organized systems will work, but you have to be 100 % consistent.

After a couple of years I eased off, but I found the students wanted a well disciplined orderly class.

There's nothing worse than having an out of control class and seeing the eyes of the kids who do want to learn. They give you this horrible defeated look, and I can still see it over 20 years later. It was that look that kept me strict to my discipline policy when I felt I wanted to ease off.

Good luck to you.

PS - My department head - an elderly obese African-American lady who had a bum ticker gave me wonderful advice that first year. "Don't even try to learn from this year. Just try to survive it." It was very good advice. I came with a plan the next year and prospered.

I have no such good memories of my education professors though. They wasted my time and sent me into battle with a completely nonsensical plan that couldn't possibly work. Hope they've come down from amongst the clouds of academia since then.

[NEOBuckeye]

154. Thanks for your advice and kind words, Yupster

Of course, half the battle for me at this point is simply finding my way into a classroom. Application-o-rama time is rapidly approaching. We'll see what comes of it this time around.

[Blue_Roses]

182. hang in there

your experience with teaching sounds a lot like mine. I started out my freshman year of college in elementary ed and by my senior year while doing my practicums I realized something didn't feel right. I took my first sociology class and changed my major to social work. Ironically, after I graduated I started subbing at my old high school and found that weaving my social work with my teaching worked better. I went back to the University in my home town and took part-time classes toward a second degree in special education.

It wasn't long before I got a social work job, but throughout the years I've managed to use both to acheive progress--personally and professionally. Now as a stay-at-home mom, I only sub sometimes, but still remain close to many friends in teaching.

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

132. Sub

in every district that will take you. That almost always leads to a good job offer.

It rook me two years to get hired. Hang in there, you'll get a job.

[dsc]

160. Try North Carolina

I am originally from Ohio and know exactly what you are talking about. There I was one of over a dozen applicants. Here I had my pick of three jobs.

[knitter4democracy]

224. Having been there in Ohio, here're a couple thoughts:

I went to Mount Vernon Nazarene, and after we got married, we moved to Cleveland. I went through the same job search problem, since I was high school English. Here's what I learned:
1. Catholic schools pay terribly, but they can be awesome places to teach. You can at least get the first few years under your belt, develop a good management system, and feel stronger before moving on. Like I said, the pay is crappy, but if it's a good school, it's worth it.
2. The Bureau of Indian Affairs is always looking for teachers to teach on the Rez, and that's a good job. Our multicultural class was teaching for a month on the Dine reservation in Chinle, AZ, and I loved it. If my husband hadn't had to go to med school in Cleveland, I would've gone there to teach. Best place I ever taught. Good pay, great students, beautiful area, awesome people--go for that, if you can.
3. Hit a teachers' job fair. At least it'll be funny. Boy, Texas is crying for teachers. Florida, Nevada, California . . . many states would kill for a teacher like you. Let 'em duke it out. It's fun to watch at least, and you might get something good in Ohio. I remember that Ohio Wesleyan had a really good fair in late February or early March.
4. Keep up hope, and keep up your certification. I let mine go after quitting to stay home with my kids, and I sometimes feel that was a mistake. Of course, now I'm opening up a yarn shop, so it's all good, but I still wonder sometimes . . .

You'll find a good job. Good teachers always do--they just have to work at it. I finally got one after calling every single middle school and high school in Northeast Ohio (starting with the publics, but that went nowhere as I had no connections). I taught at Beaumont School, and that is an amazing place to teach. Pay was bad, but everything else was good.

[phylny]

255. Northern Virginia needs teachers badly. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. I am an urban special ed teacher

We lose far too many really good teachers. We need to figure out how to make the profession more attractive.

[leesa]

56. BS. It's a more effeminate profession (no manual labor, grunting stuff)

therefore the lower wage. I'm a nurse and we have the same problem. We have a shortage too but our wages remain flat and well below the wage we should earn given our massive responsibilities. I put in 25 years of 30 cent or no annual raises for bone crushing work.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

101. I think the term is pink ghetto

But scarcity raises the value of something. Since we don't have scarcity, the value is low.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. Good question

:)

[XanaDUer]

111. Not always.

Librarians are another field with shortages, and the pay still stinks, at least in the public sector.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

236. Of course, people volunteer to do that job

And that makes it easier for libraries to do without.

[XanaDUer]

242. Yes, some volunteer but not many

It's not an easy job to begin with, like being a teacher. Usually, volunteers want to do behind-the-scenes easy things, not reference or story times.

I have worked in libraries for almost 15 years, and have only seen one volunteer doing the work of a librarian, and she was a retired librarian.

I think it has more to do with it being a female-dominated profession, and taxpayers, again, wanting services and not wanting to pay for them.

[blondeatlast]

246. Exactly. Taxpayers want ever more library services with fewer taxes.

And God help the libraries that try to raise fines to cover the tremendous loss of material to theft.

It's going to be harder still to fill the many library jobs coming up as this generation retires. It's another profession that requires an advanced degree but pays crappy wage--and with huge budget shortfalls and cutbacks, there's no job security anymore, either.

[XanaDUer]

250. Yes, the let's-run-it-like a business crew has been at work

You know, I have work in liberal areas and conservative areas, and the conservatives always want the most services and seem to think the per capita taxes for the library are a lot more than they really are.

The "blue" areas always funded their libraries better. Also, we had ONE incident of Internet-mastubating weirdness in five years in the "blue" area with NO FILTERS. We would have about three per week in the "red" area with filters.

[blondeatlast]

244. Say WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT???

Right. People with Master's Degrees volunteer to do their jobs.

My system is facing laying off librarians now.

I don't know any who plan to come back and "volunteer."

:eyes:

[fishwax]

187. We do have scarcity

but we don't have (aren't willing to provide) funds to pay them more. Scarcity may theoretically raise value, but that doesn't mean buyers will be willing to pay more rather than just deal with the scarcity.

[IronLionZion]

106. I have a lot of respect for nurses

having worked in a hospital myself (pharmacy). A simple way to increase the supply of nurses would be to raise the wage. But apparently the problem runs into a bottleneck at nursing schools. Students don't want to pay for nursing school, not enough nursing professors exist, not enough private donors donate to nursing schools, and so on.

That sucks but what can you do? :shrug:

As for teachers, supply is high in some areas (suburbs?) but demand is huge in urban and low-income areas.

[ulysses]

206. LOL!

No manual labor in teaching? :D

[ulysses]

65. right.

They're just crawling out of the woodworks. :eyes:

Wondered when you'd show up.

[fishwax]

90. Hardly

most locations have teacher shortages, not surpluses. What keeps teacher pay down is high administrative salaries (in many locations I've been familiar with anyway), an unwillingness to adequately support public education with necessary funds, and the attitude that anyone can do it (and lots of people want to).

[BrklynLiberal]

28. I think that is very high on the list of problems. I have been saying that

for years. Considering that the future of our country is in the hands of our teachers, you would think that the teaching profession would be one of high honor and lots of money. It should attract the best and the brightest. But that is not what is happening. The teachers I know are mostly underpaid, and certainly not treated like professionals.
In most cases the ones with the most experience with students are not the ones who are asked to make decisions about how to teach students.
Decisions are made by bureaucrats who know nothing about what is going on in the classroom, and the students' wellbeing's on the bottom of the list of priorities when decisions and choices are made about how to spend money and how to allocate other resources.
The standards for teachers are being lowered. The salaries are pitiful. the classroom conditions are terrible. The Bush administration's ultimate goal is to totally undermine public education so there will be an ignorant populace to fight the ongoing wars they are planning.
Only the rich and the believers will get to go to the private "vouchered" schools they will fund, and those students will not have to join the army to get an education or a job.
I know this may all sound bit far fetched, but I believe they do intend to destroy public education, and they have already started to do it.

ON EDIT: This teaching to tests that Bush inaugurated in Texas and is being spread around the country is an examlple of the undermining of the system. Children are not learning. They are simply being taught how to pass specific tests. Teachers are being forced to teach like this or they will lose their jobs. Kids are graduating High School who can barely read or do math!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. It doesn't sound the least bit far-fetched to me.

The destruction of public education is near the top of shrub's agenda, no doubt in my mind.

[blonndee]

49. Doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. The more poorly-educated students we

have, the more cannon fodder is available.

Excellent post on the other points as well.

[blurp]

40. So do they willingly do less of a good job because of pay?

Or do we need to offer more money to get better teachers in the system (which implies the current batch is incompetent)?

So which is it?

The reason kids aren't doing well is because they don't believe it's important to do well academically.

Maybe that's because parents don't demand academic success, or maybe it's because you don't need academic success to put a ball through a hoop, or maybe all that learnin' won't make you a better 'playa'.

Many kids' notions of success have nothing to do with academics. Those notions come from a teen media fixated on T&A, bling-bling, and being tough badass.

That's mostly a cultural problem and can't be fixed with more money.

But money does drive the problem. It takes adults to create all those images and stories and themes and turn them into a commercial products. And they get paid big money to do it.

And they don't lead kids so much as indulge their juvenile fantasies.

[dsc]

46. Many teachers have second jobs

which of necessity makes it harder to do their first job. Also, you could get more competent teachers with higher pay. Funny we see that in most other occupations.

[Yupster]

63. Same question I used to ask when I was a teacher blurp

So if I got paid more, you think I will do a better job? Friends I'm doing the best I can now.

Or you think there are these more qualified better people out there that will take my job away if pay was raised?

I never got the idea of raising pay to improve the schools.

Of course I never turned down the raises either.

Teacher pay has also come a very long way since where it was when I started teaching 25 years ago.

I don't teach anymore, but it's not because of the pay.

[Baconfoot]

133. In general, teachers get less in terms of health benefits these days.NT

[Yupster]

148. Than who?

Teacher benefits are among the very best of any profession.

In Texas, most teachers don't even have to pay into social security.

I'm sure their health insurance packages aren't as good as they used to be, but who's is? There's is still a lot better than most jobs.

I changed companies a year ago because the job I've had the last 13 years offered no health insurance at all, paid or not. With my wife in poor health, we were getting eaten alive, $ 900 per month for a catastrophic policy, premiums alone.

[Blue_Roses]

184. many teachers in Texas lost

their entire retirement package because the teachers association invested their retirement in ENRON!!! This is one of many reasons I am for not privotizing social security!

[Yupster]

189. What the heck are you talking about?

Texas teachers have a defined benefit program called TRS. It works like social security but is lots better for them because there are no progressive bendpoints within the formula.

The formula is 2.3 times years experience equals % of average of best three years pay.

For example a teacher who's worked 35 years and retires at age 60 making $ 50,000 would get...

2.3 X 35 = 80.5

The teacher would get a pension of $ 40,250 per year for the rest of his/her life.

That teacher put in the exact same amount as a social security eligible worker, but would get three times more than that same worker.

The formula is the same as it's been for years.

I have not a clue what you are talking about. No teacher has had their benefit or their benefit formula changed a bit because of ENRON or any other investment.

If the TRS system runs short of money, the state legislature would inject general funds into it to keep it afloat.

[Blue_Roses]

227. here

it explains it.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/enron/dec01/1187536



TRS Takes a Texas-Sized Enron Hit
Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Feb. 1, 2002
Attorney General's Office Deputy Jeff Boyd has joined Texas to a $60 million class-action suit against Enron Corp. and Andersen to recover investment losses by the state's retirement funds. TRS lost $35.7 million and ERS lost $24.3 million.

http://www.prb.state.tx.us/texaspensions/shared/newswatch.html

[Yupster]

270. In post 184 you said "

"many teachers lost their entire retirement packages."

When I noted how completely wrong that was, you cited me a source which said the following...

"The loss is not going to affect retirees, officials told the Austin American-Statesman in today's editions."

Well now we have a bit of a problem. Did the teachers lose their entire retirement packages, or does it not affect teachers retirement checks at all.

Ding - we have a winner. Not a single teacher's check will be affected at all which is a lot different than losing your whole retirement.

I'm assuming the reason for the confusion is confusion about how a defined benefit program like TRS works.

The state legislature passes a formula by which the TRS system calculates benefits. In Texas I posted the actual formula in other posts above.

Paying teacher retirees their checks based on that formula is an obligation of the state government by law passed by the legislature.

Now the teachers each month pay premiums into the system and that money is invested in stocks and bonds and CD's, but there is only a haphazard relationship between the performance of the investments and the paying of the benefits.

It's true that if the investments perform poorly, the legislature may cut the benefit formula. However, it's equally true that if the investments perform brilliantly, the legislature could cut the benefit formula just the same.

The payment is just an obligation of the state legislature, which is pretty much the same way social security works. The payments are an obligation of the congress. Lock box or no lock box, if the congress wants to change the formula they will and it doesn't matter whether the system is in defcit or floating in money..

[proud2BlibKansan]

239. You are very mistaken

Teachers' benefits are lousy. I just wrote a response about them so I won't repeat it here but we have absolutely horribly overpriced benefits.

I would bet that those teachers in Texas who don't pay into social security also don't get to draw it.

[Yupster]

271. Okay let's compare

A teacher in Texas and a hardware store manager.

They're both the same age. And by some amazing coincidence, they each made exactly the same incomes year after year from age 25 to age 60. They both started out at 15,000 a year and ended at 50,000.

They both also pay in 6.4 % of their salary toward retirement, the manager to social security and the teacher to TRS. Their employers also pay the same 6.4 %.

Now at age 60, the teacher will start drawing her retirement check from TRS for $ 40,250 per year. The manager can't draw his yet. His $ 18,500 annual social security check won't start for another five years. But he's in luck. He can take an early check at age 62, though his check will be reduced to $ 15,700 for taking it early.

The manager can access his 401 (k) money at age 60 though so maybe he can make it to 62. The teacher has no need to access his 403 (b) since she's already getting her pension and it's over twice as big as the manager's which he won't get for another five years.

One last problem though. The manager can't retire because medicare doesn't kick in until age 65. Luckily the teacher has TRS Care for $ 140 per month which kicks in at retirement.

The manager has other advantages though. After working for the company five years he got two weeks vacation, and now after 35 years he has three weeks. The teacher started with ten weeks. The teacher also gets 10 sick days and two "personal days" a concept the manager has never heard of.

I don't know guys. I was a teacher for nine years and I've now been an ex-teacher for 14 years. Now I do 401 (k)'s and 403 (b)'s for teachers and non-teachers. If people think teacher benefits are below average they're not living in the world of today. Teacher benefits are far, far, far above average for today's workforce.

[proud2BlibKansan]

283. That is Texas

Every state is different.

And hey, call me radical, but I think a teacher deserves better benefits and salary than a hardware store manager.

How about comparing teacher benefits to other college grads, like doctors or lawyers? A hardware store manager doesn't need a college degree or a master's.

I would also be wiling to bet that hardware store manager pays a lot less for health insurance than the teacher.

[Yupster]

286. You may be right

Teachers maybe do deserve better pay and benefits than a hardware store manager. That's arguable of course.

That's quite a change from your contention that their benefits were below average though.

Now the contention seems to be that yes they have better benefits, but they deserve them.

That's fine, but certainly a changed argument.

The part about Texas is kind of weird. You think Texas treats its teachers way above average and teachers in other places have it much worse? I never thought Texas had such a worker-friendly reputation. I think it more likely that most states have better pay and benefits than Texas does.

I think you'd lose your bet about hardware store managers paying less for health insurance than teachers do more times than not. It would depend on the ownership of the hardward store. If it was a family owned business, or a franchise, the manager may very well be on his own for health insurance. That's where I was until this job change and I was paying $ 900 per month for catastrophic coverage. I worked for a franchise. I bet that's more than most teachers pay.

The reason I picked a hardware store manager to compare to the teacher is because the pay would I thought be similar. I didn't mean the comparison as an insult to teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

311. You may understand the pension stuff better than I do

but I sat on the committee that negotiated our district's health and dental benefits for 10 years. It was an eye-opener. We compared our package every year to all the area districts. So I saw the rates not only for our district but for 10 others.

We had little leverage with the providers. As I said earlier, even though we employed nearly 5,000 people, no one wanted to carry our group. We were told year after year that health insurance companies don't like school districts. They didn't make enough money off of us and we were considered high risk.

Another interesting tidbit is that our people were divided into three groups and the health insurance company looked at the cost of insuring each group every year. They were active employees, Cobra members and retirees. Which group do you think was the most cost effective?

The retirees!!

[fishwax]

94. Those aren't really the only two choices

Most teachers I know (and I know plenty) do the best that they can, and don't willingly do less then they can because of low pay. But if they were paid more, performance would likely improve because, among other things, they might not have to hold second jobs (which most of them do) and because they might not have to do without necessary classroom materials (most teachers I know spend huge amounts from their own paycheck to get basic classroom materials, and have to go without various classroom aids and materials). And I wouldn't call it willingly doing less of a good job when teachers naturally wonder what they're doing grading papers until 11 o'clock at night for a job that, when averaged out by man hours, doesn't pay much more than a job in fast food.

And I don't see how saying that paying teachers more would attract higher quality applicants (and, more importantly, keep excellent teachers in the field, rather than leaving for big bucks in private industry) implies that the current batch is incompetent (unless everyone is either "more qualified" or "incompetent").

I do think you have a good point about not emphasizing education. (And I think that lack of emphasis is reflected in low teacher salaries.)

[ultraist]

109. WHAZUP with all of the focus on the black culture in your post

and blaming parents?

Teachers are underpaid and have too many kids in their classrooms because cheap bastards don't want to fund the public schools properly.

The other problem is that the tax money is NOT distributed equitably. The wealthier school districts get more funding rather than spreading out the money equally to each district within a county.

POVERTY is the number one factor linked with underperformance, not race, FYI. This has a lot to do with the fact that the schools that service the poor are SEVERELY underfunded.

It's not just the fault of parents.

I've seen your argument before blaming a "certain" culture and parents in Bell Curve type books. It reaks.

BTW, the little white trailer trash kids are doing JUST as poorly as the "bling, bling, wanta be a good playa" kids.

OUT FUCKING RAGEOUS. I'll have you know that my adopted AFRICAN AMERICAN SON both appreciates the strengths of the black culture and functions well in the white culture. HOW DARE you demean all of the black culture with that type of racist talk!

[Castilleja]

276. I agree about raising pay..........alot!!!

I recently heard or read that the average teacher pay is something like $35,000. I find that astounding! It should be double that, or maybe even just close to it. These are degreed people after all, with a highly important job.

[JDPriestly]

2. Parents who don't read to their kids,

and who allow their kids to watch too much TV.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

3. Too much focus on tests,

too much fact recitation, rather than critical thinking skills. IMO, schools, in general, don't do much to encourage kids to think outside of the box. As the poster above said, higher teacher salary would help, also.

[flamingyouth]

13. I would agree with you totally

The fact recitation thing seems to be taking over education these days. I have an 11-year-old friend who hates those tests with a passion. She's very smart and gets almost straight As but isn't a great test-taker. Does that make her less smart? According to the testing cos. it does.:shrug:

[Baconfoot]

141. There is too much focus on tests.

I guess I want to focus some comments on the focus the students themselves have on tests perhaps as a result of the focus that's being put on tests by others.
I can't even tell you.
All my students want to know is whether something is on the test. If it isn't on the test why are we learning it? According to most students, you learn things in order to get scores on tests. If you tell them something's going to be on the test and then you don't put it on the test, they feel they've wasted their time; they even express the feeling that they have been cheated.
In general, the students don't value education. If they value anything education-related it's getting scores on tests. This is a big obstacle to learning.
I know it's always been hard to get students to value education. Few students love learning for learning's sake or even for it's pratical advantages. But I suppose it's even harder for them to value education when they are told that their teachers are underqualified, when they are told at home that teachers are lying to them about evolution, when they hear from varied information outlets that the school system which produced them is "failing".

[Row_Jimmy]

5. More Art, Less business

School is too centered on crap like "making something out of your life" and "getting a good job". What we need are more classes that are artistic, let the kids explore the world for themselves. We need to teach them that money does not equal happiness

[Celeborn Skywalker]

11. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

I completely agree that art should be emphasized much more than it is now.

[Row_Jimmy]

15. Hello To you too, and I'm happy to be here!

[AliciaKeyedUp]

25. Money doesn't equal happiness

But it sure helps to have food on the table and a roof over your head.

We live in a practical society. If schools don't teach enough skills so kids can graduate and get jobs, then they aren't doing THEIR job.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. You just don't get it

We CANNOT teach all these skills AND meet AYP at the same time. It's either test or teach, we can't do both.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

102. I do get it and I do understand

There are limits. But art is secondary to useful job skills.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Roses]

186. Vincent van Gogh

Picasso, Beethovan, Mozart, Norman Rockwell, and many other "artists" (whatever their talent might be) might disagree. Artistic education is vital to enhance overall well-being.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

213. Yes, you can make money in art

Though many do so after they are dead. While art is great, it seldom puts food on the table. If you want an arts education, then by all means pursue one. But if you want to function in our society, then THAT is what the schools should be doing.

[dsc]

50. actually they need to be taught to think

and to have decent work habits. Preparing them for a specific job or set of jobs won't work since jobs change from year to year.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

103. I agree

But give them the ability to write, do basic math, use computers, etc. Those will get them jobs.

My boss was looking at resumes the other day. I saw a guy from an ivy school who had a tiny typo on his resume. He didn't get interviewed because of it.

[Lindacooks]

113. OOh, you mean the jobs being exported even as we speak????

Talk to people in Silicon Valley if you think that 'the ability to write, do basic math, use compouters, etc.' will get people jobs.

God, wake up.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

162. No one skill guarantees you a job

But having those skills gives you a lot better chance than NOT having them.

[Blue_Roses]

185. I disagree

We live in a practical society. If schools don't teach enough skills so kids can graduate and get jobs, then they aren't doing THEIR job.

with all due respect, living in a "practical society" is generalizing and it's not the teachers job to be teacher AND parent and that's what many are doing. If teachers could just teach without the focus on behaviorial problems in their classrooms and parent inattention, maybe many could be more effective with presenting the material. But when a teacher has to stop what they're doing to deal with a behavior problem that SHOULD be addressed at home, that takes away from the education of the other students.

I sub at the school my children attend and I can tell you teachers would like nothing more than to just be able to teach. Our society isn't that practical.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Welcome to DU

Great post

:hi:

[Blue_Roses]

188. Welcome to DU Row _Jimmy

:hi:

[XanaDUer]

6. The first thing I would do it fund them

from taxes taken from everyone-not just the so-called "good" neighborhoods. Monies go out evenly.

[fishwax]

97. I'm not sure I understand your point

We need more money from non-good neighborhoods to improve schools? Where I live (and where I've lived before), property taxes from all neighborhoods, not just the so-called good neighborhoods (though total revenue is naturally higher in these neighborhoods) goes to the general fund from which schools are funded.

[XanaDUer]

107. Maybe I misunderstand the taxing structure...

It just seems to me that wealthy areas have better schools. I have no kids myself, but friends who do are very concerned about affording homes in areas with "good schools" so their kids can attend them.

I also know parents who pretend and go through elaborate ruses to pretend they live in these neighborhoods and send their kids to them. This includes getting mail at friends' homes in these "good" neighborhoods, and fear of being found out.

Which, to me, seems to mean that the poorer neighborhoods don't seem to have as much money. Or something. Their teachers seem just as dedicated, if not moreso.

And, if the money does come from a general fund, as I understand it, partly state, partly federal, then why do schools in poor or working-class neighborhoods seem to have more problems?

[fishwax]

118. Okay, I see your point now

From your earlier post I thought you were arguing that those in good neighborhoods pay too much to subsidize the schools in poorer neighborhoods. Now that I see you were voicing the opposite complaint, I can wholeheartedly agree with you :D

I'm not sure exactly which percentages of funds go to general funds and which are kept for neighborhood schools (probably varies by locale), but it is absolutely true that poorer schools aren't funded as well. I think that it should basically all go to a general fund to then be dispersed evenly to all schools, which (if I'm now understanding correctly) is also what you were saying.

It's a sham that people have to worry so much about getting into the right neighborhood. If anything, schools in poorer neighborhoods should get more funds, because those students and teachers usually have additional obstacles to overcome. But my wife did her final observation at a school in the best neighborhood in town, where they have TVs in every room, computer displays for teachers to use to present information (like an interactive overhead) and computers for every fourth or fifth student. Now she's teaching in a poorer school where they can't afford to fix the leaking roof, we have to print all her materials here at home because they can only copy 50 pages/month at school, etc. It's absurd.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but thank you for clarifying for me. :hi:

[XanaDUer]

123. No problem

I just remember the subterfuge involved to go to these schools, so I just made an assumption.

No, I also think that poorer schools should have more money.

And I also think we need to reinstate arts programs and PE.

And pay teachers more, and have more and better public libraries with professional librarians, who are also paid better.

[ultraist]

120. That is not how it works

The money that comes in per district stays in that district. Why do you think that the schools in the poor neighborhoods are so dilapitated while the schools in the affluent white suburbs are new, nice big buildings?

[fishwax]

126. No, I know that some money stays within a neighborhood

But not all property taxes fund exclusively the school(s) that service that neighborhood. Our school district has several elementary schools, and while there are certainly richer schools and poorer schools, some of the money that funds poorer schools does come from taxes paid by people in neighborhoods with richer schools.

People in poor neighborhoods do pay into the system, and that was all I was trying to say. On the other hand, poorer schools are also subsidized by wealthier neighborhoods (within a district and, depending on the location perhaps, between districts in the same county or municipality--different places I have lived in have worked differently). They just aren't subsidized enough, which is where the inequity comes in.

[ultraist]

130. Yes, that's true but generally...

districts are fairly homogenius, they are small geographic regions opposed to an entire county. In my district for instance, all of the schools are well funded (elementary, middle and high). In my district, there is one middle school, one high school and one elementary school. That's how they divide the district. You don't have a choice between two elementary schools in your district.

BUT, throughout the county, they are not well funded through property taxes. We live in an affluent white suburb and every school is decent as far as structurally and the real property they contain (computers, books, etc). But, a few miles out of our district, there are schools that have peeling lead paint, very few computers, etc.

Schools recieve federal, state, and local funds. The local funds are not distributed equitably. Nor are the state funds. In our poorest counties, you find the WORST schools.

In the wealthiest counties in the nation, you find the best schools, such as Greenwich, CT.

Wealth is concentrated geographically. You RARELY find a $50,000 house sitting next to a $500,000 house.

[Jokinomx]

7. Its not the schools...its the lack of parental support.

Everyone looks at the school systems to solve all the societies ills.... but... its the parents that make or break a child. Show me a parent that supports the passions of their child...and I will show you a successful student. No matter what school they attend.

That is my humble opinion....

[ulysses]

10. I think that's a huge point re: parents.

ditto JDPriestly.

[alcuno]

27. Just watch that new show, Super Nanny.

These are middle class families with almost no parenting skills. And then people wonder why teachers have trouble teaching children when their parents can't even get them to sit in the cart in a grocery store.

[BrklynLiberal]

36. How many families have a stay-at-home parent nowadays? Sadly, the economy

determines that just to live a so-called "middle-class' life today, both parents need to work. That plays a big factor in the lack of parental support in some of the cases of the parents just not being there for the kids.

[alcuno]

48. I was a "latchkey" kid in the 70's and my parents were supportive.

People just don't bother to parent when they are around.

[Red State Rebel]

298. Bingo! You are correct!

Some parents a. don't care or b. want to make excuses for their childs behaviour.

I worked at our High School for 8 years and saw plenty. I've seen parents look me in the eyes and lie for their child. I've seen kids that I worked with for 4 all years never have one ounce of parental support - never heard from or met the parents the entire time.

[oregonjen]

8. They are underfunded resulting in cutting the arts and sports

[Row_Jimmy]

12. They're making just what this country needs

Fat rich kids with no personality

[EVDebs]

9. They don't make the most difficult subjects fun to learn. Case in point

last night on tv they showed that CSI style forensic 'cases' are being used to teach science subjects in schools. It's about time ! Kriky even Einstein went to his friends for help on his math with relativity...In High School sometimes the testing and all the b.s. takes precedence over what should be the 'joy' of learning !

[CalebHayes]

14. I'm in one, I'll tell you.

It's the kids before it's the school. I'm in 9th Grade and I go to a JH with 8th and 9th graders. The kids in my small logging town know nothing. Thats the problem. Parents aren't taking the time to teach their children anything. As a small child I was taught about current events, world Geo and certain aspects of how our government. Maybe my parents went a little over the top but parent should at the very least teach their kids some basic ethics, which kids in my school don't understand at all. Of coarse there are exceptions to what I'm saying and I'm really generalizing but I really do think the problem with the schools are the kids in them.

[Yupster]

66. I just took a teacher to dinner an hour ago

She said the exact same thing.

The kids she teaches have absolutely no knowledge base whatsoever. They don't know nuthin about nuthin.

She teaches seventh grade history.

[dsc]

16. Honestly there are lots of things

Teachers really are underpaid. The median teacher salary isn't that much about the median salary of the country as a whole. Given the disparity in education, that is scandalous.

In addition, education is undervalued in this country. Too many parents appear not to care if their kids learn or not. Others do care, but have long since lost control. Add in schools unwilling or unable to enforce discipline and you get what we have.

That said, given what our schools do it is a little unfair to compare to other countries. Most other countries seperate out kids at an early age and thus we are often comparing our general population to other county's elites.

I have to say it is disheartening to see some of the low end classes in my school.

[mcar]

17. Kids are not allowed to learn at their own pace

We stick them in boxes -- 1st grade, 2nd grade, and then we set standards they are supposed to meet before they become 3rd graders, and so forth.

Children are individuals and don't fit well into boxes. So, you have a class of 24 kids (my current personal example), 10 of whom are below grade level, 2 of whom are far above grade level. The rest are in between. One teacher. Who does she spend most of her time on? She has no choice but to spend it on the "low" kids, who already feel stupid because they are so slow. She has to because those 2nd graders will be taking the standardized test in 3rd grade -- the test that brings their school extra money if they score well, the test that these kids have to pass to get to 4th grade.

In the meantime, the "high" kids are basically taught to sit down and shut up because they are finishing their (easy to them) work so quickly and just hanging around twiddling their thumbs in the meantime.

My husband is a high school math teacher and we are very much pro public education. However, our son is a very young, very gifted 2nd grader who now hates school and everything associated with it because he is not allowed to learn. We are very seriously considering home schooling him for the rest of 2nd grade (I work part time from home).

Can you imagine what you'd feel if your 7 year old said to you "Mom, I need a proper education."? It floored me when he said it a few weeks ago. Since then, he keeps getting "sick," with colds, stomach aches, etc. and begging me to home school him. We met with his teacher last week, a very nice, dedicated, talented teacher, who admitted that she just doesn't have time to do more for him because she's got these 10 children who can't read yet.

As to why they can't read yet, I just don't know. This is a good school in a good school district. Some of today's children just come to school with so much baggage. I see these teachers working very hard to help them, but some kids just cannot learn in a traditional setting.

Sorry for the rant, but we are in the throes of this so your post hits home for me. :eyes:

[elehhhhna]

21. Do they have a gifted & talented program OR can they skip him one grade?

[dsc]

24. Have you considered upping him a grade or two

Also there should be some way for your kid to at least do reading or math in a higher grade level. That should help somewhat.

[mcar]

30. Yes, they have a gifted program

and yes, we have considered upping him a grade. The gifted program is one day a week and it's his salvation. However, because the day to day curriculum is so lacking, the gifted program now has to be more focused on vocabulary, math and grammar -- things these kids should be learning in the classroom -- instead of the enrichment they need.

As to upping him, we seriously considered it. However, he is already a very young 2nd grader, barely made the cutoff date and he's small for his age. Socially and emotionally, he's a 7 year old boy. We just can't see him as a 4th grader next year. :scared:

Unfortunately, the school is so large, they don't accelerate by subjects, which is really what he needs.

Thanks for your feedback, though.

[dsc]

33. My parents faced a similar choice

though I wasn't that young of a student. I don't envy you. I will say this if it is athletic or physical development you are worried about, he may well be on the low end of that in either grade. I was the worst athlete in my class and would have been if they had me skip a grade. It is a tough choice and I wish you luck.

[Carni]

41. I have been through this and unfortunately

Then the poor kid would also face the "freak" jealousy factor from the other kids and then (at least in my kid's case) their immediate reaction is to dumb down to make friends.

The situation is a tough one!

[Yupster]

68. My wife and I decided on private school

for our kid after visiting the local public school and talking to teacher friends.

[LWolf]

71. Something to consider

Gifted ed is funded under Title I. I believe that each state determines its own structure for serving the gifted; in some states they are part of special ed, in others they are not. Then there is the difference between districts; each district has its own offical plan to comply with. I don't know about the other 49, or even about differences in other districts, but in my state, CA, by law kids who are identified as gifted have to be served in the regular classroom. Pullouts don't cut it. We are required by law to differentiate the core curriculum for them within the regular classroom. There are many ways to achieve this, but they all take some extra training. As the parent of 2 grown "gifted" students, and a teacher holding certification in gifted ed from UCSD, I would recommend a few things: find out what your state laws are regarding gifted ed; find a teacher with some formal training in differentiation; and find a school that clusters their gifted kids.

[Carni]

34. I agree 100%

My daughter is advanced for her age and we were having all kinds of problems because traditional classrooms and state guideines are so rigid.

We ended up putting her in a private Montessori school.

If a kid in the third grade is capable of doing Junior high level math, that is what they do. They let them advance as far as they are capable of going.

I wish public schools would become more flexible and maybe structure things differently.

[Row_Jimmy]

18. Thank god for no child left behind...

[DrWeird]

20. lol!

That's probably screwed up more schools than anything else.

[ulysses]

62. indeed

from testing to the absense of the arts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. If you are serious

I am taking my welcome back :mad:

But I think you are kidding, so I am going to take a deep breath and move right along here.

[earth mom]

194. Now that MUST be a joke! No child left behind SUCKS

and was set up to point out the failing students so that the military can more easily recruit. Do some reading up about it-that is if you weren't joking. :eyes:

[alcuno]

19. America is a nation that despises education and intellectuals.

Therefore, ignorance is heralded while intellect is reviled.

However, surveys repeatedly show that while most parents favorably rate their own schools, they do not favorably rate schools as a whole. It's the wingers "talking down" of public schools that causes the conflicting data.

[mcar]

26. That is so true

My blood boils when I read LTTE that say teachers shouldn't get paid any more. These people have no clue what teachers deal with every day and how hard they try. My husband does tutoring 2 days a week after school, sponsors school clubs, chaperones events, all for no extra pay. He works 60 hour weeks just keeping up with the students, lesson plans and paperwork and people begrudge him a lousy annual raise.

[Yupster]

74. I taught nine years, but

I never really thought I was that underpaid.

The benefits were tremendous, the vacaton was unbelievable, I enjoyed the teaching and after a couple of years the curriculum pretty much wrote itself.

There were late nights at Denny's grading book reports, but there were also months off at a time.

It has its advantages and disadvantages.

Teachers tell me the kids are much more disrespectful and even violent in the school where I used to teach though, so maybe I wouldn't be nearly so sanguine if I still taught today.

[dsc]

84. I think a person with a Masters degree should be able to raise

a family on his or her salary. Many teachers couldn't. I am not saying we are on poverty wages but they aren't amazing either.

[Yupster]

89. I have a master's degree

It's in Curriculum and Instruction.

It was a complete educational joke.

It gave me an extra $ 2,000 a year. It didn't improve my teaching one bit.

Seriously one problem with education today are education degrees.

Education programs are among the weakest at college. Mine left me totally unprepared for the classroom. So little practical, so much theory thathad little relevance to a beginning teacher. I think my education professors were the sorriest I encountered in any department.

My master's degree program was a complete joke. I took a class at night and another during the summer. The other students were all public school teachers too. We were there for the degree. The teachers knew it and kept their lessons as short and content free as possible.

In the end we all were happy. They taught very little. We didn't work very hard. They got filled college classrooms and we got our $ 2,000 stipends.

People can argue teacher salaries and whether they are too low or not, but I'm not impressed by a master's in education as an argument. I have one of those and know what a joke it is. My wife has one too. She got her's the same way.

[dsc]

91. content free or no

they take time and usually money (in my case just time) to obtain. I will admit my classes weren't exactly hard either but they did take two whole summers and a school year and a half. That isn't a trivial amount of time. We award MA's with 8% on the pay scale.

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. My master's is in special ed

It took 4 years of classes, two summers of practicums and I had to write a thesis. It was a damn tough degree.

We call those C&I masters 'matchbook degrees'. Big big difference between those and more specialized master's degrees. Yet, we all get the same pay raise for having a master's in education.

[Yupster]

149. I was embarrassed by my classes

Leaving in an hour of a three hour class. No reports, no thesis. It was just a rip-off of the taxpayers, but I wasn't going to raise my hand and say "professor, don't you think you should make us earn this degree. I'm not that big of a jerk."

Glad you had a different experience.

[proud2BlibKansan]

240. I started on one of those C&I master's right out of college

There was a surplus of teachers then (30 years ago) and many districts wouldn't look at my application without a master's. So I decided to get one.

I lasted one semester. It was a joke and not at all worth the money. I had better professors and classes as an undergrad.

So I subbed, finally got hired, taught for 10 years and decided to get a master's that meant something. I narrowed it down to counseling or special ed. The counseling degree was 10 hours more so I went with special ed.

I switched from teaching regular ed to special ed 12 years ago and I am so much happier doing what I do now than when I was in regular ed. And I think I am a much better teacher than the ones in regular ed with those dime a dozen C&I master's degrees.

[phylny]

257. What got me was that teachers in one state I lived in could get

extra pay for being a "nationally certified teacher" or some such thing.

I, on the other hand, have a master's and national certification from the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association, but that didn't count.

"NO extra pay FOR YOU!"

[NewJeffCT]

174. that is so true

My wife was raised in mainland China and any Chinese scientist, student or scholar that has won some sort of major international award is truly revered as a hero over there... while they may not be as famous as Yao Ming, they're certainly known to most school aged children there.

I mean, if an American doctor or scientist won a Nobel Prize, would it be the headline story on the nightly news and then a major front page story in all the newspapers the next day? I don't think so...
yet, if a local high school team makes it to the football championship, they're treated like heroes. Heck, the little league world series is broadcast on ESPN now!

[DrWeird]

23. quick fixes.

which are neither quick nor fixes.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

29. Year-round school

We have very few people working in farming, yet teach school based on the agrarian schedule. We should have school longer hours and all year long with small breaks.

I love my kids, but I want them to learn too.

[MichiganVote]

39. Actually the longer kids are in school, the less they learn

Studies have shown that longer hours in school decrease their attention span, not increase it. Think about it. Toward the end of your day, how well do you perform or how well do you perform on overtime successive days?

The problem, that few want to face, is that we have an overabundance of students with major academic and personal problems and too damn few people trying to help them. Parents are stressed, messed up or just inadequate and the schools cannot do the job w/o more staff and more money.

But no one wants to hear it, so school staff just get told to shut up in one way or another and test, test, test.

[dsc]

42. I agree on the length of the day but not on the number of days

Most countries have many more days of school per year than we do and I think that would help especially in the case of the least supported kids.

[MichiganVote]

60. However, absenteeism increases also during year round school

Look, the problem is not time. Time is all children can think about using these days and they have a significant say in today's society about how they spend it, But that is not a "school" or "learning" problem. Its a social problem.

[dsc]

61. studies show that poor students lose a great deal over the summer

In some case it makes up the entire difference between a city school system and its suburbs.

[MichiganVote]

64. Having worked w/at-risk students for years allow me to

point out that in most cases curriculums are made for average IQ, no problem kids who do not have up to five significant learning problems or other family drawbacks that simply will not be solved with more time in school. Its the quallity of the time they have in school that makes the difference and small group or individual instruction. All kids lose skills over the summer and that accounts for why the years are viewed as overlapping as skills are refreshed in the fall. In the districts that can afford it, summer sessions are held for a percentage of students that require it.

Besides, its all elementary. Our society does not support education for 9 months, let alone 12 months.

[dsc]

75. All students don't lose over the summer

Students whose parents take them to museams and other cultural events don't lose ground but actually tend to gain some. We have the shortest school year in the industrialized world and it shows.

[MichiganVote]

230. Schools don't test on museum visits and testing is about all that counts

So long as funding is tied to the performance of disparate groups of children achieveing the same result in the same time frame, everybody loses

[AliciaKeyedUp]

104. Work doesn't take summers off

We are training children to be unsuccessful because they will have to adapt to a schedule where they work year round. Better to teach them at an early age.

[ulysses]

205. amazing that children have had summers off for generations

and so many of them have successfully entered the workforce. Wonder how that happened!

[AliciaKeyedUp]

214. We live in a more advanced society now

Much, much more for them to learn. They need all the classwork time they can get.

[ulysses]

216. how so?

Do kids need to learn the cumulative knowledge of the species? Is there that much more for them to learn than 25 or 30 years ago? I think not.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

220. They have more to be aware of

Computer skills, just as one example. Even shop now has to include computers.

[ulysses]

233. that's true.

But they don't have to be aware of all the knowledge leading up to what now consists of computer skills. In other words, they don't have to go to year-round school to learn Pascal.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

235. Though it might help

Innovation is based on knowledge. If they don't know how we got here, then that makes it harder to move forward.

[ulysses]

243. fair enough, but that level of knowledge

is not the purpose of the public elementary or secondary school.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

267. I would agree

And if they got everyone the basics, they would be taking a huge positive step.

They don't.

[ulysses]

291. they try.

Under the current circumstances, they do pretty damned well, in fact.

Also, there's a thread in the education forum in which several of us have made the point that "the basics" are not objective things because children are individuals. People are not standardized, so what do we think we really measure with standardized tests of "the basics"?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

294. The U.S. is falling behind

In math and science and we all know Johnny can't read as well as he needs to. No, I do not blame teachers for all of that, but they are a big part and what they are doing in the U.S. isn't working.

[phylny]

258. My goodness, no kidding!

I LOVE the time my kids have off from school. Interestingly, they've all managed somehow do do extremely well despite the "short" year.

And, they've attended public school in four different states. Four magnificent school systems with wonderful, dedicated, motivated teachers.

Kids are kids. You have to work most of your life - there should be SOME time in your life for being able to goof around without responsibilities. Must everyone wait for retirement?

[IrateCitizen]

302. Why not learn it the same way we did -- part-time jobs?

I learned what "work" was about because I worked part-time jobs while growing up. Many kids still do the same.

School should seek to make learning exciting and challenging for kids. Your proposals seem to only point in the direction of making it a drudgery.

[LiberallyInclined]

77. I agree with year-round use of schools.

but that's not to say that students or teachers would need to increase their classroom time...instead of a long summer break, there could be a few smaller breaks, for instance.

HOWEVER-

i'd like to see a system where kids could work more at their own pace- whereby some could take up to 15 years to go k-12 without being considered "held back" at any point, and others might be able to go k-12 in as little as 9 -10 years, without "skipping ahead"...maybe break the school year into 5 8-week "terms", and require a student attend a minimum of 3 terms every year, and/or 10 terms every 3 years. and a maximum of 18 terms every 4 years...the numbers i'm using are arbitrary and just for example- students should be allowed to excel, with some precautions against burn-out, where others should be allowed to learn at a slower pace, without the stigma of "being left back".

[LWolf]

261. We have year-round schools.

They don't give kids more days of school; they give districts more classroom space.

Kids actually get fewer, longer days on a year-round schedule. They get shorter, more frequent breaks during the year. And every time they go "off track," their teacher has to pack up the room and set it up somewhere else when they come back on, because another class is in the room they left. It's a multi-track system designed to fit more classes into the same number of classrooms.

I've worked both; if I didn't have to keep packing and moving, I'd prefer the shorter, more frequent breaks. They retain more. I've worked some pretty bizarre, unusual calendars over the years, including extended year calendars. If I were to design my own, I'd take the best from all of them and leave the worst. I'd have a single track, with a two-week fall, winter, and spring break and a 6 week summer. Then I'd back the politicians and admins off of the schedule with a damned pitchfork and politely point out where they could put their programs, paperwork, and mandates, and I'd go back to a more relaxed, enjoyable pace in the classroom.

Somehow, I don't think anyone is going to let me "design" anything. ;-)

[oasis]

300. Year round school. I agree. Kids need a more intense learning

routine nowadays. Summer vacations were great in my day, but the world has become a most serious place to live in since then.

[IrateCitizen]

301. Year-round? Yes. Longer hours? No. Smaller breaks? No.

Keeping kids in school for longer hours will only result in them learning LESS. If that's your goal, that's fine. But don't expect your kids to learn MORE because they're in school for more time. They won't.

I totally agree that school should be year-round -- or at least moreso than it is today. But we should also incorporate plenty of breaks into the schedule so that kids don't get ground down. Reduce the summer break to 5-6 weeks. Put in 1-2 week breaks between terms and 1-week breaks in the middle of each term.

Judging by some of your other posts here, you bear an eerie resemblance to a former DUer, MuddleoftheRoad. You seem to be under the impression that the sole purpose of a child's life is to be prepared for the regimentation of the "real world". Play is a valuable aspect of children's learning cycle. If anything, we already regiment our kids' lives too much with organized activities, and don't give them enough time to be kids.

As for learning about how "work" goes -- why incorporate that into the school experience. Why not just allow kids to get used to what "work" is in the same way that many of us have -- by holding down part-time jobs and the like?

[mopinko]

31. they are getting bad pr?

wrong as compared to what?
ok, i agree that teachers need more money, tests are overused, adn wrongly used. and above all, they need to teach the whole child a lot more. but i think a lot of them are amazing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. We don't value children in our society.

That is it, in a nutshell, as far as I'm concerned.

If we truly valued children, our schools would be as modern as our shopping malls and as up to date as a Radio Shack store. They would be air conditioned, full of the best technology available and the teachers would be paid as well as doctors. Kids would go to school year round and there would be a waiting list for community members who want to volunteer at their local school.

I know this is a very global answer, and you can spank me for not suggesting a solution. But after a quarter of a century in education, this is the most glaring problem I think we face. If we could somehow promote a culture that truly values children and childhood, I honestly believe a lot of our problems would be solved.

Think about the pioneers in the 19th century. When they settled 'out west' and built their communities, what was the first building they put up, after their homes? The school. Now compare that to the way new neighborhoods are built today. What gets built first? The shopping malls. The roads. The convenience stores. The banks. Then maybe a park. This says a lot about our values in the 21st century. Kids just aren't very important.

Look at how TV programming has changed in just 20 years. The late afternoon schedule used to be cartoons and other kid programs. Saturday morning cartoons were on every station. Now we send kids home after school to Jerry Springer and Judge Judy. Fewer and fewer stations are airing cartoons on Saturday mornings.

20 years ago, I read The Hurried Child by Elkind. It scared me to death. It is so depressing to see how right on Elkind was and still is. We are raising kids in an adult oriented world, imposing adult values on them and exposing them to adult lifestyles far earlier than we should.

We just don't value childhood anymore. It just breaks my heart.

[Yupster]

76. When I went to school, there was no air-conditioning

and we learned just fine.

I don't think things like air-conditioning or landscaping make a bit of difference. A good school is a school where kids learn a lot, not a school with freshly painted classrooms. I don't think there's much of a correlation between one and the other.

[alcuno]

92. Except they always manage to have air-conditioning for administrators.

And yet I'm in a classroom with 30 middle school kids who just got back from PE (no showers) and a classroom in the mid 80's - the humidity and the temperature. The kids can figure out whether or not they are the priority.

Physical environment is only one component and it's sad that we can't have schools that are good in all areas.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

93. I believe the poster was saying...

(forgive me if I'm off the mark)
We pay alot of lip service to education. What we value in our society isn't the school but what brings in the money.
My history professor told us the story of a friend of his from the Middle East who visited. He had the pleasure of driving her around. She kept seeing the most ornate buildings in town and asked "Is this a school?" time after time. She got a bit disappointed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

241. You are exactly

'on the mark'. Kids are not important, schools are not important. If they were, those ornate buildings would be schools. And damnit, we would at least have air conditioning, phones and up to date computers in every classroom in this country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. When you went to school

I'll bet few if any of your classmates had asthma or respiratory ailments.

Kids can't learn when they aren't comfortable.

[Yupster]

151. You bring up a good point Proud2B

I went to school over 30 years ago on Staten Island. It was one of the most polluted places in the world. We could smell the refineries across the Kill Van Kull in Jersey.

Yet you're right. There weren't a lot of kids with asthma or other such maladies that I know of.

Also, we had good disciplined classes without having 25 % of our male students on ridalin.

I'd like to know what's different?

I mean kids are kids. How is it that stuff that was routinely done back then is impossible today?

We never had air conditioning all through school and school ended on June 30, yet today air-conditioning is a necessity.

We always had over 30 kids in a class, but now over 22 kids in our local district requires a waiver from the superintendent.

We had orderly classes and the boys controlled themselves without taking behavior modifying drugs.

We spend way more money than we ever did before, have much nicer buildings, pay our teachers much more, but it doesn't seem to be working.

People are people, so I don't think that's changed. What has?

[theboss]

226. My mom has taught for 20 years in a windowless room

And she is generally considered the best English teacher in her district. Her kids write great college essays and win awards.

My dad's been an elementary principal for nearly 30 years.

Neither of them seem to think money or nicer accomdations is the answer.

What we've done to kids in this society is strange. It's like we've abandoned them in an extremely well-equipped playworld. They have access to more technology and information and options and medical treatments than any generation before them, but are becoming less and less happy.

I'm not sure what the solution is. But I do think a lot of the suggestions are designed to make teacher's lives easier instead of helping teachers (and that is said as the son of two of them).

I think class size may be the most overhyped concept in educational history. You give thirty kids a great teacher and they will learn twice as much as 15 kids with a lousy teacher.

I think standardized testing is largely a crutch. My dad used to spend his time making teachers better, talking to students, and being a disciplinary presence. Now he spends it crunching numbers and steering his curicculum to the test.

I also think we have abandoned too much parental responsiblity to schools. My dad is now responsible for early childcare, providing two meals a day, distributing medicines, after school childcare, health screening, mental health evaluations, social work, and God knows what else. If they manage to teach arithmatic anymore, it's a miracle.

[proud2BlibKansan]

245. Your parents are right

Nicer accomodations won't solve all of our problems. But why are we expected to perform miracles without them?

I just this year got a telephone in my classroom. Taught for 24 years without one. Until last spring, I had ten year old Apple computers and no internet access in my classroom. I also now have air conditioning, but only because I bought a window unit for my classroom myself because I cannot open the windows anymore and have been waiting for two years for district maintenance to come fix them.

Sure I worked hard and did the best job I could without modern conveniences. But why do our kids not deserve them? What other place of business in any community functions with no air conditioning and boiler heat? How many other employees have to buy their own air conditioners? How many other employees have to carry a cell phone to work so they can make phone calls - and pay for the cell phone out of their own pocket??

Last year, I went through a toll booth on an interstate highway and noticed the toll taker had a computer in her booth. I wanted to cry. Why is it SOP for a toll taker to have a computer but we don't put them in classrooms?

It disgusts me that we expect our kids to spend their days in windowless rooms and in shitty facilities when every other business in town operates on 21st century technology. Sure, technology and up to date modern conveniences won't SOLVE our problems, but why the hell don't our kids deserve what a toll taker on a turnpike has????

[Yupster]

273. Okay I'll bite

Why is it a big deal that you have a telephone in your classroom?

I taught nine years and never even thought of asking for one.

I went to school k-12 and don't think I ever sat in a classroom that had one.

When did this become a necessity?

[proud2BlibKansan]

282. It's a safety issue

and didn't it drive you crazy to play phone tag with parents and others who were trying to reach you?

I teach special ed. I need a phone. I get two or three phone calls a day from district officials and parents. And co-workers call me. I mainstream my kids for certain classes. It's nice to have the mainstreaming teachers call to tell me when the kids arrive in class so I know they didn't stop at the restroom to blow up the toilets.

[Yupster]

288. The way we handled it was

when a parent called, they put a little pink note in my mailbox. I was a ninth grade history teacher. That seemed to work. I'd call them back from the office or a work room.

Can a parent now call a classroom teacher during their classroom instruction? That sure sounds like a bad idea.

Same thing for getting calls from other school employees. I'd get a pink note in the box. In a rare emergency, a secretary or even a student would come to my room and tell me to call someone back soon.

As far as kids getting where they needed to go, I guess we just tusted they would. I know the office would send a student or secretary to fetch a kid sometimes.

The safety concern you mention may be a very valid concern.

The whole twelve years I went to school, I never heard of a student attacking a teacher. Now I hear teachers talking about it. I really don't even remember students backtalking their teachers.

If teachers are now afraid for their safety, then we need phones in each room, but I wouldn't call that progress. More I'd say it's evidence that something has gone dreadfully wrong with our society in the 30 years since I was a student.

In short, I'd say I can see why it would be nice to have a phone in each room, but teachers got along fine without them for generations. On the other hand, if a teacher is in fear for her safety, then it's a necessity, but what a horrible thing that's saying about our society.

[proud2BlibKansan]

308. Phones are a part of life in the 21st century

so is air conditioning. Why shouldn't schools be as up to date as any other institution?

I hate those little pink message slips! I ended up playing phone tag with so many people.

I can block calls anytime I want. Like when I am testing. I just call the office and tell them not to put any calls through. I also have an obnoxious parent and the office won't put calls from her through.

As for the safety issue, homeland security has invaded our schools. We now have to completely walk off school property for fire drills. We have had to designate a school safety team and those teachers are being pulled for mandatory training a couple times a month. When someone complained about this at a staff meeting, our principal said well I would bet those teachers in Russia wished they had a better plan in place when the terrorists invaded their school. I said those terrorists had automatic weapons; are we going to be issued those in the event of a terror attack. My principal didn't appreciate that comment. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

232. Society has changed

Mothers work and kids come home to empty houses or stay at school for 10 or 12 hours a day.

More kids are being raised by single parents than at any time in our history.

The number of marriages that end in divorce is higher than the number of ones that don't.

More and more teenagers are becomng parents and keeping their babies. When we were kids, babies were given up for adoption; it was shameful for an unwed mother to raise a child. Now it is commonplace. I have 10 year old students whose mothers are in their mid 20s, and have 3 or 4 kids by different fathers .

Families are not the families we had when we were kids.

And as I said in an earlier post, kids just aren't valued like they were when we baby boomers were growing up. We just don't treat them very well anymore. No wonder they act up at school and at home.

[phylny]

259. Not only that, today many children live in air conditioned homes.

They're not acclimated to heat like we were "way back when."

My classrooms weren't air conditioned until senior high, and even then, not every classroom had air conditioning. It wasn't such a big deal because my house wasn't air conditioned either, so I really didn't know/feel the difference.

I know how drained I am now when I'm in a space that's not air conditioned. It's not a necessity, but it's really pleasant.

[Nadienne]

35. There are lots of problems with schools,

public or otherwise, and with society in general.

One problem is that public schools teach kids more about how to study for tests than how to think critically. Another problem is that they don't spend enough time analyzing current events from different perspectives. But those problems go hand-in-hand with other problems: kids spend too much time watching TV, and it seems as though most of what they watch is junk TV, stuff that doesn't do much other than teach them how they ought to behave in society, what's cool and what's not cool, etc, etc.

Another problem with schools is they seem to focus on getting kids a job, preparing them for the working world, rather than enriching their lives. If you work a 40-hour week, that's less than 1/3 of your life that is being serviced by your education. And if my nephew, who is graduating this year, is typical of all those who are graduating or will be graduating in the next couple of years, the "enrichment" they turn to is X-Box/Playstation 2/Computer Games and pizza whenever they want.

Again, that is also partially because they spend too much time surrounded by advertisements. Although, schools don't teach kids that video games won't make you happy.

How can it be fixed? A solution would require a fundamental change in the role of schools, for starters. And since society emphasizes the need to have the cool and impressive toys, which requires a job to get the money to buy those toys, society would need to change before these problems could be solved.

Just my opinion. :) Oh, and teachers in public schools are way overworked.

[MichiganVote]

44. Ditto for the overworked part.

[Nadienne]

51. Just the overworked part?

:)

I think the "overworked part" may be one of the bigger roots to the whole problem.

[MichiganVote]

55. I thinks its the whole story, front to back cover

[Nadienne]

67. I don't think it's the WHOLE story...

But that may be a matter of opinion, of whether a teacher's curriculum should be geared towards preparing students for the working world, or towards giving them critical thinking skills. Don't teachers have to have their curriculum approved by school administrators? If so, it wouldn't matter if the student-teacher ratio was 2:1; students would be taught what the administrators approve.

[Ariana Celeste]

43. Ok first-

I apologize if I am repeating anything, but here goes.

I just got out of school recently, so I can definitely tell you a couple things.

Alright- I saw someone mentioned, "More art- less business." This I completely agree with. I feel that it is wrong to make kids try to choose their careers in Jr. High and start working towards them in highschool, by taking corresponding classes. This was a huge problem I had in highschool, and one of the contributing factors as to why I dropped out. It was WAY too much stress to try to figure out what I wanted to do with my life THAT early. Anyways- two classes I took in highschool were Business Law and Business English. Business Law was fun, and was way more about law than busines. Business English however, was all about everything you learn in Keyboarding. Only without learning to type. Just the whole... using Word, writing Memos, etc.

Another problem I saw- is that they try to keep students from discussing contrversial issues. (i.e. certain subjects NOT allowed in Debate classes.)

They do not cater to different learning styles. People learn things differently, and at least from what I saw, most teachers only went one route. So if you are an auditory learner and your teacher prefers to teach visually, then you are screwed unless there is another teacher teaching the same subject with a different way of teaching.

Many schools are putting more money into sports and competition than they are academics.

Students are not encouraged to think about anything other than what is in the textbooks and what the teacher says. And those who continue to loudly and proudly voice opinions out of the mainstream, are discriminated against by teachers and other students alike.

Tests tests tests tests tests. Memorize this, pass the test, move on.

And last but not least, teachers are not paid enough.

That's all I can think of at the moment, if I think of more I will reply again.

[Nadienne]

57. I agree completely.

As to, "Students are not encouraged to think about anything other than what is in the textbooks and what the teacher says. And those who continue to loudly and proudly voice opinions out of the mainstream, are discriminated against by teachers and other students alike." :

If students question teachers, teachers lose credibility. Although no human being can possibly be right all the time, would you listen to someone who was supposed to be teaching you about something about something they supposedly know about that you supposedly don't know about, if they were wrong about something?

As Cartman would say, "Don't question my authoritay!"

[Dinger]

53. The Problem Is . . .

that bu$h & his ilk are dismantling what Brown vs. Board Of Education built.
We have to spend so much time fighting of these RW attacks, which hurt our kids and us teachers, and that cerainly doesn't help.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Anti-intellectualism in American life

If the mass media and even parents tell kids that the important things in life are to make money, be popular, and do well in sports, why are they going to pay attention to school?

When I taught on the college level, I had students who gave their hobbies as "cheerleading and listening to the radio," students who declared that they hated to read, students who didn't read a single book during the six weeks between semesters, and students who read but hid the fact from their friends.

In my high school, parents actually protested when teachers gave challenging assignments.

As long as the buildings are new, the teams win, and the kids get into college, your average American parent is happy and gives the local school system a high grade.

It doesn't matter that the kids graduate unable to find Japan on a map, write in complete sentences, or talk about or appreciate anything that isn't pop culture, sports, clothes, or who's sleeping with whom.

[ulysses]

159. easily the most intractable of all the problems, yes.

Sad, isn't it, for a country founded by children of the Enlightenment? Would most adults these days have the foggiest clue what the Enlightenment was?

[leesa]

58. Too much teevee and an overemphasis on sports and business

People are unable to think critically anymore.

[Democrat Dragon]

59. Ok lemme get started

1. Not enough funding
2. Hiring bad teachers simply because they're cheap
3. Having to bring textbooks back and forth.
4. Not enough materials
5. Too much "Police State" disipline
6. Old Textbooks
7. Buildings need to be remodeled
8. Too much high-calorie junk food
9. Not enough classrooms
10. Traffic
11. What Nadienne posted

Solution:More funding for 2,4,6,3(there should be a home set and a school set), and 9.

Set up diffrent arriving times for diffrent grades to ease traffic or simply divide the time into 7 periods and make 1st period completely optional.

No more junk food, or at least even the amount of junk food and healthy food. Encourage the healthy food by making it cheaper.

As for #5, many high schools used to be open campus, but after the Columbine shooting, the superintendents got fearful and made the schools closed campus. Unless the school is in a high crime area or is far away from restaurants, a school should be open campus to encourage responibility and it seems that a "police-state" atmosphere
has encouraged kids to take the first ammendement for granted(http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3034108).
I can understnad why a school in south-central Los Angeles would be closed campus, but I've seen schools in low-crime suburban areas like Alhambra, Cerritos, and Torrnace(all three in L.A county) be closed campus.

[Yupster]

78. When did it become a great burden

to tote your textbooks back and forth?

We all grew up that way. It never seemed like any special burden to me.

[Democrat Dragon]

115. When was the last time you went to school?

http://www.otworks.com/otworks_page.asp?pageID=710

The average textbook these days is about as thick and as wide as a large software box. One day I couldn't go to school because my back was sore from carrying two large textbooks. And I tried putting one in my backpack and one around my arms and them my arms got sore.

[Yupster]

119. Well when I went to school,

the books were much heavier because they were on clay tablets.

Maybe the difference is that kids are just not in as good a shape as they were when I was a kid.

If I can stay in my old fogey mode for a second, where are the kids out playing ball in the streets today?

Too much time on the playstation and not enough time on their bikes.

And another thing.

I still have my class pictures from when I was a kid and I compare them to my kids today. There's no doubt about it. Kids are much fatter than they used to be. It's awful and it's not cause we were starving.

Kids reading this right now. Turn off your computer and go outside and play !!

[phylny]

260. We weighed our daughter's backpack last month.

It was 29 pounds. She's in seventh grade.

[MichiganVote]

231. Threats or discovery of school violence are everywhere

[Democrat Dragon]

307. And are overblown

ever read "Everything You Know is Wrong"?

[LiberallyInclined]

69. Two-income families.

when both parents have to work to support the household, the children are the ones who suffer in the short run, society is what suffers in the long run.

how would i fix it?

democratic socialism.

but mentioning the violent revolution that's going to be necessary to get us there might be misconstrued as support for said revolution, and serve to get my post deleted...:evilgrin:

[UdoKier]

70. Very little wrong in my area - just underfunded.

I am amazed by my kids' school. It's fantastic.

I think public schools are bashed WAY more than they deserve. The vast majority do a good job, and a significant percentage do a great job.

[Democrat Dragon]

72. I don't think you could say that about the majority California

The Bay Area in California has some of the best schools in California. I used to go to school there, and it's great. But now that I've seen other parts of California, I wouldn't say tha California's schools are the best, even thought I used to think so.

[UdoKier]

156. Well, I'll admit, my kids' school is exceptional, even for SF.

We were very lucky to get them in there, it's not easy.

But I've seen many studies showing that private schools are not producing better test scores than public schools, or perform marginally better.

Considering that private schools are not saddled with the crime and special needs kids the public schools have, they should be performing FAR better, but they are not.

Surveys also show that about 90% of parents with kids in public schools are happy with their OWN child's school, but a majority of those SAME parents think that OTHER areas' schools are "failing"

In other words, the RW hype that our public schools suck has stuck in the national consciousness and become a truism, even though it's not true.

Sure, schools could do better - but a lot of that starts at home. Far too many parents today turn a blind eye on kids who just copy everything off the internet, and never really do the real work it takes to get a real education...

The Bay area has some of the best, and some of the worst public schools in the state. But again, it comes down to funding. Not only does my son's school get more government funding than one in say, Richmond, the mostly affluent parents there are constantly throwing fundraisers, to the point that we have new computers, and they are even discussing paying the salary for an extra teacher to keep class sizes down next year!

It's a shame that in our "integrated" times, mostly minority schools in poor areas STILL get less money than the schools in richer areas. But, the situation being what it is, I have to get the best schooling I can for my sons, so I'm taking it.

[whistle]

73. They are being financially strangled by local school boards....

...who resent integration and accountability. Our federal government has refused to establish educational priorities and uniform standards and allow education to flounder. We did much better it seems after WWII through to 1969, then the neo-conservative revolution took hold and our society has been in decline ever since, except for the Clinton years. It's time for America to wake up, or we'll become another banana republic.

[Yupster]

But from WWII to 1969

the federal government had pretty much nothing to do with K-12 education. If those were the good old days, why would you want the federal government setting educational priorities today?

[Telly Savalas]

170. We're those really the good old days?

If the education system was so great in those days, why did it produce so many people who voted for Bush?

In general, young Americans I encounter aren't any dumber than their older counterparts.

[kwassa]

79. Here, local public school kids go to Ivy League colleges

and CalTech and MIT.

These aren't private school kids.

[K-W]

80. Decades of local tax hawks.

After they were done trimming away the 'waste' we had a bargain bin education system.

[LWolf]

81. There are some great replies here; here are mine:

Greater social ills that negatively affect public ed:

*The pace of our lives has increased; whether it is because of 2-income families, extra hours spent working or commuting, excessive "organized" extra-curricular activities, or other factors, families don't spend as much time together any more; and the time they do spend has evolved. Kids don't get nearly enough face to face personal conversation and interaction with their parents and/or other adults as they should, especially during the critical birth - 5 year period.

*anti-intellectualism
*The blame game; there's always someone else to blame rather than take personal responsibility these days, and public ed has become a whipping boy for every social dysfunction.
*undervaluing the born

Factors specific to public ed:

*underlying agendas; it's not about learning, it's about maintaining the status quo. The haves get to keep having as long as the have-nots get to keep not-having. Efforts to restructure the system that perpetuates this agenda have led to all out war on public ed by the "haves."

*underfunding in every area
*understaffing
*overcrowding
*lack of support services
*over-worked, under-paid, and under-appreciated teachers

*the "factory" model that demands the standardization of people, and attempts to force the person to fit the assembly line, rather than modifying the program to fit the needs of individual people.

*corrupt statistics used to threaten and punish.
*top-down control.
*policies and legislation written by politicians and administrators to serve political agendas and boost bureacratic careers.
*privatization and corporatization.
*overbearing bureacracy.
*a culture that encourages polarity between school and families, instead of partnership
*misuse of, distortion of, and corruption of assessment.
*standards that are not based on what we know about brain development.

How am I doing?

[ulysses]

96. looks good to me so far.

:D

[Pithlet]

201. Why, nothing has changed since the "good old days"

Everything is just the same. Anyone who's story is any different than my own life experience MUST be wrong. Kids today have it NO different than 20 or 30 years ago. </sarcasm>

[UdoKier]

285. The post you're replying to was pretty good, and not saying what you claim

So why the dismissive attitude.

BTW, I personally don't think most public schools are much worse than 20-30 years ago. There has been an erosion in the overall society.

A lot of the people complaining about crime, gangs, poor academic performance compred to the "Leave it to Beaver" school they attended seem blissfully unaware that there were positively horrible schools in the 60s and 70s, too. Sure, most of them were in the inner cities, and now the horrible schools are in the suburbs. But buck up! A lot of the best schools are in the cities now! Esp. NYC and SF.

[SharonAnn]

82. Parents. Parents who don't "parent". Poverty.

Seriously.

Houses with no books, parents who can't read, parents who didn't graduate from high school. Parents who weren't and aren't connected with the education system in any manner.

Parents who don't value education, who don't provide space and time for homework, who don't attend parent-teacher conferences and support the learning of their children.

Parents who are poor, who have trouble feeding and nourishing their children adequately. parents who dont' see to it that their children get enough sleep at night.

Inadequate health care, untreated childhood diseases and allergies.

But primarily parents who have so many of their own problems that they can't provide what their children need to learn and grow.

Andy Rooney said it a few years ago on 60 Minutes, "Maybe we don't need better schools. Maybe we need better parents."

[MountainLaurel]

95. A-fucking-men

I have various teacher friends who work with at-risk populations, and the stories I hear:

*Kids who are raised to believe that hitting someone solves problems.
*Kids who were exposed to lead paint and other chemicals in their water since birth.
*Kids in neighborhoods where industrial incinerators cause asthma rates through the roof, as well as strange cancers that kids die of because they don't get proper treatment.
*Kids who get their one warm meal of the day at school, and whose parents are literally starving themselves so their kids can eat.
*Kids who can't do homework because they're busy taking care of younger siblings while their parents are at their second or third jobs.
*Kids whose families share a two-BR apartment with several day laborers. The Washington Post this weekend mentioned a girl who has to have her mother escort her to the bathroom for this reason.
*Kids who have to worry if they'll be homeless again if the voices start talking to Mommy through the TV like they did last year.
*Families that are one sick kid away from homelessness.
*Families where there are no books at home.
*Neighborhoods where there are no adult males because they're dead or in jail.
*Families that have to decide on a regular basis between food and paying the electric bill.

[ultraist]

121. Andy Rooney is a pig

who has made such inappropriate comments he has been suspended. We have systemic problems with our public schools systems and underfunding is just one of them.

[American Tragedy]

142. What did Rooney say?

[LibDemAlways]

83. In California they are woefully underfunded.

Ahnold is trying mightily to gut a law that requires a minimum of 40% of state revenues to go toward education. He calls school children a "special interest" group and is withholding $3.7 billion in funds owed to the schools.

I live in an affluent area and the parents themselves contribute the funds to pay the salaries of the school librarian, music teacher, and PE teachers at the local elementary school. Schools in less affluent areas do without these "extras."

California schools are not only underfunded, teachers are under tremendous pressure to improve standardized test scores. Teachers at my daughter's elementary school actually compete for a cash prize to the teacher whose students score highest.

Teaching to the test means student are not being taught to think critically and are not given many creative writing assignments. What we used to call "current events" is dead. No time to discuss real life outside the classroom.

When I was a kid tv was a distraction. And I had only about seven channels to pick from. Today kids are distracted by literally hundreds of tv channels, video games, DVDs, CDs, mp-3 players, and, of course, the internet - never mind cell phones.

Parents are part of the problem, too. Kids are overprogrammed with extra-curricular activities -- everything from karate to hip hop classes to sports leagues galore. School ends up taking a backseat to after school activities.

Also, too many adults set a poor example at home by never picking up a book, never visiting a library, never taking their children to a museum or art gallery -- all of which convey the message that learning is unimportant.

I have nothing but respect for teachers. They are underpaid, overworked, and often treated shabbily by parents and administrators. It's no wonder it's difficult to attract the best and the brightest.

The superintendent of my daughter's district sent home a warning this week from a book called Final Test, The Battle for Adequacy in America's Schools by Peter Schrag in which he states that the 21st Century workforce needs to be highly educated and that if we do not create, maintain, and fund a first rate education system, our children can look forward to living and working in a sub-par, third-rate world.

[gollygee]

169. A word about extra-curricular activities

My daughter isn't at this age yet, but my friends have school-age kids. The reason they send their kids to lots of extra-curricular activities is because kids don't get much in the way of PE or arts education at school. If they want the kids to do those things, they have to provide for it after school. Enter busy kids with heavy extra-curricular schedules.

[LibDemAlways]

190. Not implying that there's anything

wrong with extracurricular activities. Just that some kids are heavily overscheduled. I know kids whose parents have them signed up for 5 karate classes a week or 6 dance classes a week.

Everything in moderation.

[LeftyMom]

86. One-size-fits all "education"

designed by the uninspired for the disllusioned to force on the disinterested so they can pass tests.

How would I fix it? Well, I'm sure this opinion is unpopular around here, but I don't think public schools should be the default option. I think families should be able to choose a model of education suited to thier child's needs. There should be more public alternative schools, more private schools, more homeschooling famililes, more concurrent enrollment in high school and college. The current model is antiquated and has a poor track record. If public schooling is to remain relavent it needs to change with the times and become more flexible to students needs.

Testing should be based on evaluation of real work, not on bubble-filling fact regurgitation.

For the record, I don't suppourt vouchers or for-profit education schemes. As a homeschooleing parent, I think public-funded faux-homeschooling is a grave threat to my family's lifestyle. I don't want to defund public education, I just want to make it work and I think that will require great structural change and a reimagining of the system.

[Armstead]

87. They suck.

How's that for constructive criticism? Sorry, couldn't resist. I haven't tweaked you for a while.

Actually, not having kids I don't follow it that much. But from what my impression is from teachers and parents and reading, it seems like there is too much pressure to "teach to the test" rather than focusing on more creative or flexible forms of learning.

[ulysses]

158. everybody's a comedian.

;-)

[greenbriar]

88. Bingo

ON EDIT: This teaching to tests that Bush inaugurated in Texas and is being spread around the country is an examlple of the undermining of the system. Children are not learning. They are simply being taught how to pass specific tests. Teachers are being forced to teach like this or they will lose their jobs. Kids are graduating High School who can barely read or do math!!!!






Underfunding
Overcrowding
passing kids on to the next grade that don't have the skills
overworked teachers
demanding paperwork to prove NCLB

[JohnLocke]

98. Ways to solve the problems

- Magnet schools - ideally, every student should be in a magnet program of some type
- Emphasis on social development in early grades
- Begin teaching foreign languages before high school
- Full funding for schools
- Smaller schools, rather than mega-schools
- Less emphasis on pointless mathematics and more emphasis on practical mathematics and history, civics, and English
- Encourage creative/analytical writing, rather than "canned writing" (into + three paragraphs + conclusion)
- In business classes, less emphasis on typing and software and more emphasis on business relationships, studying banking and accounting, etc.
- Promote student journalism via school newspaper, yearbook, lit mag, etc.
- Promote student theater
- Promote "specialist" teachers who care deeply about their chosen subject.
- Better pay for teachers
- Small class sizes
- School libraries are enormously important, especially in the early grades. Students should be taught how to use a library and how to research, which is something many people don't know how to do

[erinlough]

99. The world is in a state of flux, so are kids, so are parents......

This is coming from 31 years of teaching 8th grade special education students. We in the profession are not giving up. We keep trying to change and serve the kids as best we can in the situation we find ourselves in at this moment. Sometimes I feel like Benjamin the donkey in "Animal Farm", I've seen a lot of trends come and go and this one will go too.

That said this is the most test oriented I ever remember seeing education and it is not helping the students. I feel public schools are being set up to fail.

Also, we all need to parent kids...the whole village needs to be involved.

Third, parents now days seem to be split between pushing their kids to move faster, join more, take harder classes and then ignoring them. It seems like they are saying to them, "go faster, faster, faster,.....leave me alone.

I do wonder what we teachers did that could lead to 51% of the population voting for Bush. I know we in public schools didn't teach them all, but you have to wonder what we missed.

Just some of my thoughts.

B-)

[LibDemAlways]

137. Welcome to DU...Thanks for your observations.

I agree with you about parents pushing the kids on the one hand and at the same time pushing them away. That is so true. Here's an example.

My daughter's sixth grade has several days of outdoor education coming up. The kids are bussed to a camp about an hour away. Before I decided to send in the fee, I drove to the site of the camp and was not happy at all with what I saw. I dug a little deeper and was appalled that I hadn't been told about several safety issues - including a five mile hike the kids take along a windy mountain highway. Additionally, I learned the camp facilities are dilapidated and do not meet current codes for emergency vehicle access. I was very unhappy and decided to share what I'd learned with some of the other parents.

They could not have cared less. They are all thrilled to be getting their children out of the house for a few days, and I could have told them an ax murderer was loose in the area and it wouldn't have made a difference.

I fault the school officials for selecting this very marginal site, but I blame the parents more for not taking an interest in their children's basic well being. These are well-to-do people who apparently believe that you can just write a check and make someone else responsible for your kids. Needless to say, my kid isn't going.

[sweetheart]

105. Too much state intervention

Teachers should be able to select their own textbooks and teach per
their own styles. This "one size fits all" education mentality that
the state must approve textbooks and whatnot is principal to the problem.

2 other peeves. One: speical money is set aside for special classes for
the "gifted" in some school districts that is wrongheaded. In california
there is "MGM" mentally gifted minor determined in my generation from an
IQ test you took in second grade... and this determined how many state
funded college courses you could take before college... i found it
grossly unfair, and would open the program to pure-merit basis, not
this stupid system of genetic prescience.

The other complaint is that teachers can't tell unwilling students to
bugger off... as school is glorified baby sitting and even the most
disturbing students must be accomodated at the cost of the many... why?
Rather education is a priviledge, and if the teacher feels a student is
being rude or distrespectful, it should be a teacher's right to send
them away to another class, and if no other teacher wants them, then
away from the school. Limiting the education of all, for the lowest
common denominator is no solution.

[JohnLocke]

116. Ugh.

I disagree with everything you said.

[sweetheart]

122. Well hot dang....

So you believe that the state should create universal curriculum
and impose it on teachers.... sounds good, but you must not know the
teachers i do.

MGM programs that are not open to those of merit, who've shown something
since second grade... graft of taxpayer funds... bullshit

Forcing classes to teach to the "horseshack" or worse... of the class
and hold everyone else back...

Sounds you're the communist who would rather make education standardized
and mediocre... that you cannot explain your critique is somewhat
disconcerting given you've chosen the topic.

[kineneb]

140. wrong-o

The countries which have national or state standards are the ones that are ahead of us. As to gifted programs, I was in them and thought they were great. If you have to spend money on students in the special-ed classes, then you need to invest in the brightest students. If you don't you will lose them. The MGM/GATE students should be our future leaders, not the ignoramus that we now have.

I hated primary and secondary school because the classes were so slow. I advise the high-schoolers I know to do their best and if need be, catch the rest in a good junior college where the non-learners have been weeded out.

And for the folks in the middle, what happened to voc-ed?

[sweetheart]

175. Well, then you got "heads"

I was not in the school when the MGM test was given in second grade,
and 10 years later, with a 4.0 was not allowed in to AP english by
the lack of an MGM label... and whilst those with the special label
went on about how "gifted" they were... like you do... it stinks of
elitism, for all that gifted'ness. But it did not stop me from
publishing in peer reviewed academic journals years later. Where the
"gifted" ends, dilligence provides.

Those ignoramuses who "are our leaders" are created by a system of
educational elitism that is offensive to those not included, that my
own kneejerk impulse on reading your post, is to quaff that MGM/GATE
assholes are exactly that, and we need leaders with some common sense.

But that is wrongly kneejerk, as much as your impulse to call people
not in MGM/GATE ignoramuses. I can't help but notice how your post
stinks of elitism, and arrogance... the very things that lead me 30
years ago, to loathe the same elitism in a system where the arrogant
cherry pick who they believe has pre-destiny... a system that cultivates
conformity, even at the highest levels, and ultimately claims to be
a meritocracy, when in fact, it is corrupt cronyism, promoting the
yes-kids of tomorrow to replace the yes-men of today.

That elitism is the rot of the democratic party's arrogance to think
that just because it has university faculty rooms as its haven, that
it somehow deserves power.... what arrogance. If the repukes could
go back to their eisenhower days, i'd gladly dump arrogance like that
for a republican ticket. Those "middle folks" in voc-ed deserve
better from the system than a passing backhand... and certainly
in a democratic republic, that punishment has already been doled out.

[sweetheart]

177. 2 other things

I notice as well 2 other things, your post inspires. One is the
mention of competing with other nations. Those competetive state
standards are wooly measurements at best, as they are average hurdles..
and having worked abroad in some of these cultures like south korea,
i've never seen such collective stupidity from such a group of high
achievers... any dog can be trained to catch a frisbee. To train a
dog to be a good friend, and wise, is a whole different matter.

In this regard, education is personal, not a matter of standardized
testing, or if it is both, the teacher must inspire and nurture people
directly in thier classroom and giving them the leeway to make material
and teach as they know best is trusting the professional on the front
line, not some board of idiots at the state level. Standardized testing
has destroyed kids ability to write. They can't clearly communicate
ideas explain themselves well on average, as communicating coherently
is not ticking a box, A,B,C,D or E.

I heard jerry brown give an inspired talk on getting the classroom back
in to the hands of the teacher... and i agree with him... seems he
was your governor too, back in a wiser time, maybe he knows something.!

The second point is endemic to the concept that children are "born smart"
It is the classic republican approach suggesting that genetics
supercede environment. The liberal left, traditionally knows that
all kids are smart and capable if put in a nurturing environment,
and i'd wager that if i put a grossly unqualified kid in to the MGM
track, for all the difficulty they'd have, likely they'd turn out to
achieve far more than they would left in a track given less care.

That we allocate our love based on genetics, is not liberalism... and
our social love as well. It is very possible, in an education system
to nurture each student, every single one, to excellence in their
areas of interest.. .and this involves less of treating education
like a robot factory assembly line, and more like 1-off micro
manufacturing with customized curriculum, instruction and support
for each an every person. Given the state of modern computing, we
should expect nothing less. I can order a car, not built yet, the
colour and the seat frabrics and take delivery short on... why is this
ability to treat each case uniquely not extended to education.

[American Tragedy]

147. I definitely agree

I watched a PBS program about education that stated that Finland has been rated as having the best education system in the world. Its success has been attributed to the fact that teachers and administrators colloborate effectively with parents, have great independent control on the curriculum, and are free to be creative and teach beyond the bland textbook material.

[LWolf]

164. Some good points with one exception:

The MGM program has been defunct in CA since about 1980. It's now GATE (gifted and talented ed). Most states have some sort of requirements to serve the needs of gifted learners. In some states, the gifted are served as part of special ed; in CA, they are served separate for special ed. In California, funds cannot be used only for "special classes." By law, the kids have to be served in their regular classroom by differentiating the core curriculum. They have their own "IGPs," similar to a special ed "IEP." In the past, pullout "special classes" were popular because it's easier. It's easier to send them somewhere to do something "special" than it is to differentiate for them on a daily basis in the midst of the rest of the class. Some schools and districts still depend on pullout; they're allowed to do so as an "extra," but they they are still required to address the needs in the regular classroom by differentiating the core curriculum.

Additionally, here's a rarely considered fact; the gifted are considered a "high risk" group, right behind the learning disabled for the risk of dropping out and other social/economic problems later on in life. That's why service to them is mandated by law.

[sweetheart]

173. Good to hear MGM got the bullet

I don't disagree with pullout, as indeed, it allows paced learning and
folks with the capacity to excel... but i am not a believer that at
that young age, that the educators get all the categorizations correct...
and this then can have people who should be pulled out, not able to
join tracks, and the reverse... so as long as salmon can jump pools
i support it... but with MGM's pullout classes, certain fish had a big
sticker on them, and nobody without a sticker was allowed, forever..
and no amount of whining could get one access, as i recall myself
wanting to participaate in the AP classes of the time, and being blocked
for the lack of a sticker.

That people feel that the possibilities of a lifetime are discernable
by educators at such a young age is disturbing to me, as geez, don't
they play god... and what when they're wrong. What when they've
sacked a kid in to the wrong learning track, that they are deterred
from achieving their potential in education. I hope the new system
allows for the reality of errors in classification, cross school system
transfers and such things that require the mixing of non-labelled fish
in to the salmon ladders.

[LWolf]

176. Basically, the current system uses

multiple sources of info for identification; they get a certain number of points from each source and if their total points make the cutoff they "qualify."

The bottom line for identification though, is whether or not the need can be served. We don't identify and serve musically or artistically gifted kids, because if we identify them we have to serve them. We don't have teachers qualified to serve them; an elementary school teacher has a multiple subject credential for teaching general ed, and middle school/high school teachers have single subject credentials. We are qualified to teach academics, so those are the areas of talent we serve. I think this part is a shame; I'd like to see all of our kids' gifts and talents enriched, without needing to categorize or label them. Just as I'd like to see all kids who are struggling, for any reason, receive extra support, without having to be identified and qualified for any special program. It's all about funding. Think how much more funding we would need to treat ALL students as individuals, each with different strengths and weaknesses, and design systems and programs to address those individual weaknesses, and enrich the strengths.

[sweetheart]

180. bottom line is funding indeed

And there it is... the real opportunity cost of this stupidity in
asian deserts, that we've deserted a generation's educational potential,
spending billions to blow others to bits for bush's imperial crown.

What you're saying is beautiful to hear... it inspires that such love
is in an educator... i wish you wuz once my teacher.

Given the state of computer science today, i'm quite suprised that the
power of the systems has not been harnessed for the track learning
subjects to free up teachers to focus on special cases. I studied the
LAUSD proposal for an integrated software system, but found it rather
more based on the resource planning aspects of schools, rather than
the educational curriculum aspects. There, i believe computing has
yet to be used... as in all honestly, if a video game were as fun to
play about mathematics, that students could play network mathematical
games, the teaching'd be half done by the inspiration.

What was that about... to get a society to make a great fleet, you can
organize labour in to factories to make ships, but far mor effective
is inspiring a love for travelling the sea. Its a bummer about alternate
tracks, as i see them as more relevant than some academics see it,
and i think it all harkens back to the fact that congress sees schools
not as educational institutions, but as places to learn job skills.

Thus, knowing your history, your art, literature, music or languages
is simply not much of a job skill, and deemed unworthy for the budget.
What a lovely teacher... your post brings tears to my eyes.. :-)

[LWolf]

237. You've done your good deed for the day;

every teacher needs a hug now and then to keep the spirits up!

:hug:

[autorank]

125. They produce a whole bunch of uneducated, anti-democratic people.

Face it folks, the system produces the morons who: think evolution is just a theory; don't know where Turkey is; can't repeat any of the Bill of Rights; fall for every lie told by the right wing.

They have kids for 12 (twelve) years and what do we get?

This is what's wrong with the public schools.

[LWolf]

165. Hello?

Let's clarify a couple of things:

"We" don't produce morons who think evolution is just a theory, etc.; their right-wing parents do. The same right-wing folks who have instituted the war on public ed that narrows the curriculum and stifles discussion. What "we" are allowedto do in a public school classroom falls into an ever-increasing narrow range for the 13 years that "we" attempt to serve them. "We" are attempting to serve them in an overcrowded, understaffed, undersupported system.

"We" don't "have" the kids. The parents "have" them. The politicians, and the people who vote for them, and the corporations who buy them, control the system we work in.

Given that, then, according to your assessment, what's wrong with public schools would be narrowed down to the voters and parents of America.

[autorank]

265. Oh, did I deserve that!

I'm a big supporter of the public schools. I'll narrow my gripe down to learning the Constitution and basic facts about government. How hard wold it be to get the kids to memorize the Bill of Rights? That would have a huge impact. I remember in 8th grade taking a whole year to study the consitution! It was great. Maybe less (but high impact) information is more in terms of the value derived from the experience. I didn't mean to offend any teachers although I can see how it would be taken that way. My appologies!

BTW, I'm in a very well funded, highly educated school district. Interestingly, the kids are quite liberal, almost reflexively so. They're clearly more liberal (socially and politically) than their parents. Maybe that's the ticket...

[LWolf]

297. That's the ticket, all right.

In my state, we introduce the Constitution in 5th grade. Just a simple introduction. Our 8th graders study it in more depth. In my district, they don't graduate from 8th grade without passing a Constitution test. It's been that way for decades. I think some teachers have had them memorize and recite parts; it's not a standard thing.

It all depends on the state frameworks, and the individual district's interpretation and focus. What gets valued is more determined by the families, and by mainstream media, than the school curriculum. Of course, in the current climate, the only thing that counts are standardized test scores. Teachers aren't going to be allowed to spend any significant time on anything that doesn't appear on the test.

The better funded we are, the more we can do and the farther we can go. The more educated they are, the more likely they are to be liberal. Any more doubts about why intellectualism has become a dirty word, and funding schools has become anathema?

[Baconfoot]

131. less than is wrong with our private schools when it comes to educating.NT

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. You mean those private schools

that handpick their students?

that have incredible parental support?

where kids can get kicked out anytime and they can't ever come back?

that have no handicapped kids?

that have no ESL kids?

that aren't required to abide by NCLB?

that aren't dependant on tax dollars to stay in business?

Those private schools?

[Yupster]

153. Yes

that's the one my kid goes to.

It's very expensive, but if you can't spend your money on your kid's education, what's more important?

The school gets tremendous parental support, and every kid is there to learn.

It's a night and day difference from the local public schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

248. I spent 12 years in private schools

The best in my community. My dad was a teacher and later an administrator in a private school where faculty kids got free tuition. So I had an excellent education.

I now teach in the hood, the exact polar opposite of where I was educated. So I have truly lived in both worlds.

What I know from experience is the best private schools aren't as good as some think they are and the worst public schools aren't nearly as bad as public opinion says they are.

And kids are kids. Some come from wonderfully supportive families and some have parents who should never have been allowed to breed.

I have friends from my high school who were from the wealthiest families in town who are now in prison. Wasted lives are found in every SES group.

The biggest difference? OPPORTUNITY. The wealthy kids I grew up with had tons of it, the world at their fingertips. The underprivileged kids I teach have to scramble to find it.

[Yupster]

275. An old baseball expression

A team is never as good as it looks when it's winning nor as bad as it looks when it's losing.

I am troubled by the concept that kids are kids because I agree with it.

The kids today are the same as we were, but they don't act the same. There's no doubt about it.

And it's not because the schools are underfunded, because they were even more underfunded back then. It's not cause class sizes are too big because they were bigger back then. And it's not because teachers are underpaid because teachers were even underpaidier than they are today.

Something serious has gone wrong with our society and we need to fix it.

Here's something else that's different.

For the last 14 years I've been doing teacher retirement accounts, so each year I get a district directory. Fourteen years ago you could open a page at random and read ten names and eight of them would be classroom teachers and the other two other district staff. Pick up this year's directory and open a page at random and of the ten names you read only four of them are classroom teachers. The district is now overrun with administrators, staff and professional specialists. Thee are people who have titles that I have no idea what they do, and I work closely with the district, taught for nine years and worked on staff issues as a union leader when I taught.

[napi21]

134. The schools started going down hill when they took discipline out!

There is not discipline in the schools anymore! If the students don't want to listen, the worst thing that can happen is suspension. Well, hey! If I could have gotten a couple of days off, that's GREAT!

I'm old now, and my kids are 40 and 37. I remember when they were in school and they first started this BS about no discipline. I talked to the teachers and asked if I couldn't sign a waver from their new policy. I believe a problem needs to be dealt with at the time it occurs...not "I'll have your parents come in" or I'm calling your parents". I was told I couldn't do that.

I only had one problem with one of my boys during their entire 12 years. 3 days before graduation, one of them got into a fight...for a valid reason, but it was a dumb thing to do. Because of the timing there wasn't any repercussions, but I still reamed him out. Why screw up a perfect record of 12 years on the last 3 days????

It's gotten much worse. Parents don't support the teachers, students know they can get away with almost anything, and nobody seems to understand why they are in school!

I blame the parents. It is their responsibility to teach their kids the importance of learning, and they they will not tolerate misbehavior. The punishment at home will be worse than anything the school can do. Kids need to learn to respect authority again!

[tblue37]

138. I actually write a lot on this subject.

I have a website called Teacher,Teacher, where I post my commentary on teaching and education, and another called Who’s Minding the Children?, where I post commentary on parenting and children’s issues:

Teacher,Teacher
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/index.html

Who’s Minding the Children?
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/index.html

On these sites I have several essays that might interest you, because they deal with some of the factors that undermine the educational mission in our schools:

“The Inmates Are Running the Asylum”
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/inmates.html

“It's Stupid to Be Smart”
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/stupidsmart.html

“I Do Not Want to Hear About a Teacher Shortage!”
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/teachershortage.html

“Students Teachers Hate”
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/suckups.html

“This Is Their Brains on Drugs”
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/catherds.html

“Does Not Play Well with Others”
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/playswell.html

“We Don' Need No Stinkin' Gifted Programs!”
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/gifted.html

“Blatantly Obnoxious”
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/obnoxious.html

“American Kids Really Have Changed”
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/rudekids.html

The Moon Follows Me Wherever I Go!”
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/moonfollow.html

“What's the Matter with Kids Today?”
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/kidstoday.html

[oasis]

145. Thanks for those links.

[Yupster]

152. Very interesting - thanks

The story "American Kids Really Have Changed" struck a chord in me because it's what I see.

Kids really are different than when I grew up and it's not at all for the better. I think young people don't realize that kids didn't always behave this way.

But I am stumped as to why this happened.

It's a very major, disastrous change in a very short period of time.

What happened?

[tblue37]

172. A lot of things happened, I think.

And unsocialized kids are very hard to teach.

I have another article on the Who's Minding the Children? site called "Adolescence: Living on Capital," in which I discuss some of the reasons why adolescents are so difficult to deal with and what we can do about it:

http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/adolescence.html

Our popular culture provides almost nothing but examples of smart-alecky or sullen kids who show no respect to adults, it teaches kids to define deviancy downward, in Moynihan's clever phrase, and it teaches them to be antisocial. Meanwhile, parents are so overworked and overstressed that they don't have time to raise their kids, so the kids are being raised by a toxic pop culture and their peers, who are also being raised by pop culture and their peers (as I explain in “What’s the Matter with Kids Today,” linked above in my previous post).

Parents, for a lot of reasons, mainly having to do with little time for their kids and a feeling of guilt—or just exhaustion—don’t discipline their kids or socialize them.

Daycare in our society is to a large degree provided by the same class of women whose kids are considered at risk and in need of Head Start to prepare them to succeed in school because of their disadvantaged home life. Not all, I know—I did home daycare for 18 years, while also teaching college, and I have three degrees. But many daycare providers in this country do daycare because they are otherwise unemployable. Just as with nursing home attendants, low pay and crappy working conditions tend to fill a job niche with the least employable workers. Our daycare standards are incredibly low, and even finding safe daycare is a crap shoot for parents. See

“Children Don’t Belong in Daycare”
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/daycare1.html

and

“Do Good parents Put Their Children in Daycare?”
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/daycare1.html

Families are also separated and moved around for the convenience of employers, so there are no family members nearby to babysit kids while parents work or to provide emotional and psychological support or balanced role models if the kid’s nuclear family is dysfunctional, for whatever reason. Furthermore, there are no older family adults around to provide experienced guidance for new parents who haven’t a clue about how to handle their kids. And in our smaller nuclear families, most kids don’t even have the opportunity to babysit younger siblings as they grow up, so new parents are often really at a loss when it comes to raising their children.

In other words, for many reasons a lot of these kids arrive at school without the preparation that would enable them to succeed in school, with attitudes that make them darned near unteachable, and with all sorts of psychological and emotional malfunctions.

A civilized society finds a way to shape and channel the potentially destructive energies of its young adult and adolescent males. Our culture does not. Instead, it encourages the worst tendencies of adolescent males, because there is money to be made from marketing to them in a way that encourages antisocial, aggressive, and destructive attitudes and behaviors.

There is also money to be made from marketing to children of other age groups, and a lot of that marketing is designed to appeal to their least attractive tendencies.

I could go on and on and on. There are so many factors involved. But keep in mind that someone once said that any civilization is only one generation away from barbarism.

BTW, I’d like to recommend a book by Cornel West and Sylvia Ann Hewlett. I am not fond of much of Cornel West’s writing, but this book is incredibly good. It’s called The War against Parents , and it’s about how government policies (including tax policies and the underfunding of social services) now undermine parents’ attempts to do a good job of raising their kids. The authors point out that it wasn’t always this way. When they were children themselves, government policies were more family-friendly, and thus children of all classes were less at risk than they are today.

Visit the article index to my Who’s Minding the Children? and Teacher, Teacher websites, which I have I linked above. I often add new essays, and these are among the issues I address on those two sites. (Actually I have lots of sites, where I write about lots of different subjects, but those are the two that deal with issues relevant to this message thread.)

[phylny]

263. As part of my job,

I see a child who is in daycare. I am absolutely appalled at what some of these kids are doing.

Today, I was working with the kid I have to see, and there were twoother boys at the table. Boy A kept stealing Boy B's crackers. I made several comments, asking him to stop, but Boy A didn't listen. The teacher also told him to stop, but it didn't stop and she didn't intervene again. Then Boy A turned to Boy B and pinched him - very hard. At that point, I told him to stop, and he just looked at me and pinched the boy again.

I'm the mother of three, a former pre-school teacher, and a speech therapist, and I work wih kids all the time. The lack of discipline, and the refusal to obey a teacher or adult is absolutely amazing.

On another downer note, the daycare that I visit is open from 6 a.m. to - 11:30 p.m. The teacher told me that there are kids who wake up, have three meals, and go to sleep in daycare.

Sad.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

202. Nope. Confused essays there say what James Dobson says-DISCIPLINE

From 'What's the Matter With Kids Today'-

"We are not born socialized or civilized. Despite the sentimental nonsense we like to spout about how innocent and adorable babies are, the fact is that babies and small children are adorable to serve their own purposes, not ours: to get us to do what they want, and to prevent us from turning on them when their insatiable demands and impulsive, outrageous behavior start to push us over the edge."

"It takes an enormous amount of time, energy, and attention to socialize an infant, to make him fit for human company."

Sentimentality of innocence?!!Insatiable demands!?

>>>>?Fit for human company??!!<<<

This characterization of a human child's needs as PSYCHOPATHIC indicates the author's own beseiged mentality at the same time Tina Blue rightfully describes an entire culture of isolation from community that sabotages parenthood and childhood alike.

While the problem of un-socialized children acting out their rage and pain is common to these essays (and I agree that's true), the root of their disruptive angst is wrongly claimed to be a sentimental permissive 'love' matches James Dobson's authoritarian views promoted by fascists-have the courage to beat them until they know "who's boss." There is so much more to socializing happy healthy humans.

Yes, the economic stress of the eugenics this fascistic culture induces is pointed to in these essays. But the idea that children (and citizens) are vicious monsters who must be policed into submission is
EXACTLY how FASCISM BEGINS IN THE HOME.

I can't stress this enough!>>>>>CONSIDER THIS>>>>>>

Amnesty International codified the 8 common methods used on prisoners to break their will and control their minds.

It is called 'Biderman's Chart of Coercions.'
http://www.actabuse.com/chartofcoercion.html

STUDY THIS CAREFULLY BECAUSE IT SHOWS WHAT EVERY CHILD GOES THROUGH TO BE SOCIALIZED BY LARGER ADULTS AND AUTHORITY FIGURES.
Domestic abuse counselors now refer to it because of its applicability to abusive relationships where usually women are terrorized.
1) Isolation
2) Monopolization of Perception
3) Induced Debility and Exhaustion
4) Threats
5) Occasional Indulgences
6) Demonstrating 'Omnipotence'
7) Enforcing Trivial Demands
8) Degradation

HUMAN CHILDREN ALL COGNITIVELY EXPERIENCE TORTURE IN THE SOCIALIZATION PROCESS WHILE GROWING UP. Some get a gentler version than others. We all have unique brain chemical dispositions and experiences which determine how well we endure and recover from the torturing socialization of childhood. WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF ABU GHRAIB.

These coercions are institutionalized AS A WAY OF LIFE for the entire population in fascist America's isolated and fearful culture that was beautifully exposed by Michael Moore in 'Bowling For Columbine.'

Blame the left-over brutality of 'might-makes-right' animal survival mechanism that our species has outgrown and only begun to evolve past. This brutality is intentionally being kept in place by the need for fearfulness and bullying which TV induces in the service of the Military Industrial Fascist Complex and its economic policies of eugenics and permanent war.

Children are the front line for obtaining worker drones and cannon fodder. Public education was designed to serve this inhumane societal construct and it is working just as designed.

http://www.sntp.net/education/gatto.htm
>snip<
This is taken from John Taylor Gatto's book, Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling

This speech was given by the author on 31 January 1990 in accepting an award from the New York State Senate naming him New York City Teacher of the Year.

THE PSYCHOPATHIC SCHOOL

"1 don't think we'll get rid of schools any time soon, certainly not in my lifetime, but if we're going to change what's rapidly becoming a disaster of ignorance, we need to realize that the school institution "schools" very well, though it does not "educate;" that's inherent in the design of the thing. It's not the fault of bad teachers or too little money spent. It's just impossible for education and schooling ever to be the same thing.

Schools were designed by Horace Mann and by Sears and Harper of the University of Chicago and by Thorndyke of Columbia Teachers College and by some other men to be instruments of the scientific management of a mass population. Schools are intended to produce, through the application of formulas, formulaic human beings whose behavior can be predicted and controlled."
>snip<
Gatto explained that The Behavioral Science Teacher Education Project "identified the future as one 'in which a small elite' will control all important matters, one where participatory democracy will largely disappear. Children are made to see, through school experiences, that their classmates are so cruel and irresponsible, so inadequate to the task of self-discipline, and so ignorant they need to be controlled and regulated for society's good. Under such a logical regime, school terror can only be regarded as good advertising. It is sobering to think of mass schooling as a vast demonstration project of human inadequacy, but that is at least one of its functions."

>snip<

As a bit of background, the industrial titans of the 1890's began to think that not only could the production line be engineered, but people's lives could be engineered as well, in order to work like homogeneous robots with the machines. People like Rockefeller and Carnegie gave huge sums to prominent academics to see if this could be realized through the educational system. They found that to a considerable extent it could, and it is still being done today as evidenced in the Congressional Record during the Clinton administration. This is the story that John Gatto has to tell.

Please read this speech by Gatto where he quotes the eugenics-embracing robber barons who designed schooling to be mind control for their economic benefit:
http://4brevard.com/choice/Public_Education.htm
(A Short Angry History of American Forced Schooling)
>snip<

"Between 1906 and 1920, a handful of world famous industrialists and financiers, together with their private foundations, hand picked University administrators and house politicians, and spent more attention and more money toward forced schooling than the national government did. Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller alone spent more money than the government did between 1900 and 1920. In this fashion, the system of modern schooling was constructed outside the public eye and outside the public's representatives.

Now I want you to listen to a direct quote, I have not altered a word of this, it's certainly traceable through your local librarians. From the very first report issued by John D. Rockefeller's General Education Board -- this is their first mission statement:

"In our dreams, people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present education conventions of intellectual and character education fade from their minds and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into men of learning or philosophers, or men of science. We have not to raise up from them authors, educators, poets or men of letters, great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, (he's really covering the whole gamut of employment isn't he?) statesmen, politicians, creatures of whom we have ample supply (whoever the pronoun we is meant to stand for there). The task is simple. We will organize children and teach them in an perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way".

>snip<

Here is the root of fascism in America and why parents and schools are producing 'monsters.' Because schools DO WORK!!


Once parenting, schools, and the context of society stops resembling Abu Ghraib, we will see adults who aren't acting out their rebellion from their torturers. And teachers will have classrooms that resemble peace rallies more than prison riots.

[tblue37]

290. You have very much mischaracterized what I say in my essay.

In the first place, although I am dealing with a serious subject, my tone is mildly humorous in some places. When I say it takes socialization to make children "fit for human company,” my tongue is in my cheek where that phrasing is concerned. I tend to have a bit of a flippant tone in my writing. But the fact is that unsocialized children are not at all pleasant to be around, and they don't much enjoy their own company, either. Nor do they end up with many friends.

Discipline is not just punishment. In fact, discipline that relies much on punishment is not very effective. Discipline is a matter of conditioning behavior in a variety of ways (including positive reinforcement for desired behaviors), and the goal is to enable children to develop impulse control and conscience, so that they are not slaves to their own most destructive, unconsidered, or antisocial instincts.

As for babies, I am a mother, and I did daycare for 18 years. I especially love babies. I might also point out that the kids in my care loved coming to my daycare, and although most are adults now, they still come to see me all the time. The few who are still children badger their parents to bring them to visit me. Obviously the kids don't feel that my method of rearing them was so terrible.

Basically, I believe in enforcing just a few rules, but being very firm about those rules: respect for other people (no hitting, no name calling, no physical or verbal assaults of any kind); respect for other people's things and other people’s space (no wanton destruction, no taking what doesn't belong to you without asking its owner, picking up after yourself, etc.); respect toward animals (not abusing pets); no overt disrespect toward or yelling at adults (but since I didn't allow nasty behavior toward children, either, this is just a carryover from that rule). On those rare occasions when a child tried yelling at me, I would say "I don't yell at you, and you wouldn't like it if I did. So I don't like it when you yell at me, and I won't allow it." It worked every time, at least partly because they could tell from the way I spoke that I really meant it. I never had to raise my voice to teach them that mistreating me or other kids (or other adults) was simply not acceptable.

But when people pretend that babies and small children are not primarily about themselves and about gratifying their own needs and desires, they are placing a burden of sentimentality on them that the kids cannot carry.

Then, when they act in a way that is normal for babies and small children, the sentimentalists are horrified and think of them as evil.

On the other hand, one who views them realistically has no overinflated expectations about their angelic nature, and thus is not disgusted when they behave like what they are--immature primates, of a species characterized by neotony and by a great need for parental care and training until they have developed the social skills to manage by themselves.

The main point of the essay that so horrifies you is that today's parents seriously neglect their children. Raising a child is a labor-intensive process, and it really does take a village. For a variety of reason, today's parents and most other adults have been taken out of the equation, and the children are left adrift, with no guidance beyond that provided by the toxic popular culture and their peers, who are themselves trained primarily by the toxic, antisocial popular culture.

One reason why teachers have so much trouble teaching in school is that kids who have been raised to think that no one has a right to limit their behaviors are a terribly disruptive force in the classroom. People like you who scream “Fascist!” at everyone who tries to teach children to behave half decently are part of the problem. Polite, respectful behavior is what makes social interaction enjoyable. It is not fascism to teach children to be nice, and you don’t have to punish children or prevent them from having fun to teach them to be nice, although there do have to be consequences for bad behavior. “Punishment” is negative reinforcement, and negative reinforcement doesn’t have to involve hitting, yelling, coldness, or any of the other ubkind things that a lot of people do to kids.

For example, one pair of extremely unsocialized sisters who joined my daycare at ages 4 and 8 needed more negative consequences than most to get them to behave. One Saturday I babysat them while their mom worked overtime. I took them to the library, but they acted so wild there that we had to leave, because they were disturbing all the other patrons in the children’s room. When I told them we were leaving, the 5-year-old sat down in the doorway to the children’s room and refused to come with me. I picked her up and carried her out to the car, with her raging all the way.

I had planned to take them swimming that afternoon, but I didn’t. When they asked when we were going swimming, I said we were not going anywhere else in public that day, and until I could be sure they would behave better, I had no plans to take them on any more excursions. We would play at home and in the park across the street, but not in places where their behavior would bother other people.

That is what I mean by my facetious phrase “unfit for human company.” Those girls really could not be taken out into public places—at least not until they were trained to behave better.

Now, in most cases, when a kid behaves that badly and the adult says she won’t take them swimming, or whatever, eventually the child’s whining will wear the adult down, and the adult will go back on what she said and give the child what she wants. But I won’t, and it doesn’t take long for a child to realize that behaviors that she gets away with elsewhere will have consequences she won’t like when she tries them on me. I wouldn’t hit or yell or say nasty things. But I also wouldn’t reward the behavior I wanted to correct.

Now, you undoubtedly think I was mean to take the girls home from the library and then refuse to take them swimming that afternoon. That was punishment, and you think all punishment is evil. Mean old fascist wouldn’t take pwessus kiddie-widdies to the pool just because they couldn’t behave well in public.

But I think that attitude indicates that you don’t know a thing about handling children. Either you don’t have any, or if you do, yours are probably the sort of kids that the rest of us leave libraries and restaurants to get away from.

You seem to think that anything a child does is perfectly fine, no matter who is hurt or what is destroyed, and that any attempt to teach them to behave in ways that are not antisocial or disruptive is fascism. What utter nonsense.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

303. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply YOU were a fascist. My aunt loves your work

I certainly didn't mean to imply you personally were a fascist.
My apologies for that impression.

(My all-loving wonderful mother aunt loves your writing although she agreed the words I highlighted were perhaps not indicitive of the totality of your work.)

You can understand how your own words sounded EXACTLY like the words of James Dobson who is a brutal abusive authoritarian that the Bush** regime and American Taliban adore, right? He calls children monsters who must be subjugated with beatings and pain like dogs. His words, I swear.

And this is how you get young soldiers to hold the leash on Muslims.

I do think that the techniques in Biderman's Chart of Coercions represent how children are socialized and why it so easily 'goes wrong.'

No one suggests children shouldn't be socialized. Quite the contrary.

But the design of public school's by genuine fascists to make workers and cannon fodder plus the omnipresent TV propaganda is an important thing to combine with how parents unwittingly hurt the psyches of their children and wonder why their kids are in such anguish.

I have to run out the door so I'll stop here but be back for dialogue if you wish.

-peace and thanks for your work with children, a rare thing much needed.-JOM

[tblue37]

304. I'm guessing, then, that we are probably on the same page,

but that you initially took my smart-alecky words, which were meant facetiously, to actually mean that I think kids and babies are monsters. I don’t. I am crazy about kids and babies. I much prefer their company to that of adults.

How does you aunt know my work? I mean, had she encountered it before, or did she happen to read some of the essays I linked in my earlier posts?

And I agree about Dobson. He is scary.

I also agree about schools, to a large degree, even though I teach college and have done both volunteer teaching and substitute teaching in the public elementary schools. I read Gatto and agree with most of what he says. The public school system is a bad system, designed for the advantage of the powerful, not for that of the student, but there are many wonderful teachers doing heroic work in them nonetheless. And for many students, especially in the past, a public school education is what enabled them to move out of the perpetual underclass and achieve security and success. Even a system designed for other (less benign) purposes can be used for good by those who really do mean to help the students. Of course, it gets harder and harder for the teachers to work to benefit the students, because the teachers themselves are more and more constrained, exploited, and hampered by the system and by the fact that so many kids come into the classroom too unsocialized (and often too damaged by their dysfunctional families or neighborhoods) to be ready to accept instruction or guidance.

My own two kids (now adults) went to the public schools, but we treated school as a resource rather than as the primary aspect of their education. I volunteered in their classrooms several days a week all through grade school, and I personally filled in the gaps in their education right up into college and post-graduate school--and there were many such gaps. But I am poor (adjunct faculty, not well-paid tenured faculty), so when they were children I could not provide the sorts of extras they could get at school: band, arts, choir, drama, etc.

Even at that, my son ended up going to the alternative high school after the second quarter of his sophomore year, because he could not tolerate the repressive, conformist atmosphere and the rigid administration at the regular high school. Michael is highly gifted (as are about 1/3 of the students at the alternative high school), but he couldn't handle the high school, which had over 2,000 students in a building meant for about 1200. Also, during his high school years he was a punk rocker, with a 7-inch mohawk and two 1 1/2 inch trihawks. The vice principal of the high school singled him out for harassment from the first day of school, even though he was quiet, smart, and well-behaved.

BTW, just for fun, check out my anecdotes about Michael’s mohawk, on my “Kidbits” website:

http://www.kidbits.homestead.com/mohawk.html

http://www.kidbits.homestead.com/mohawk2.html

[azrak]

139. My humble opinion

First:The 1997 IDEA reauthorization added 10-12% more students with special needs without allocating the same percentage in funds.

Second: We need independent auditors because money is wasted every day in every school.

Third: Too mnay 20-30 years teachers who hate the way todays students are but won't retire or try the newer instructinal strategies.

Fourth: A generation of parents who still think they come first and the kids come second, way scary!

Fifth: Wholesale sellout to commercial concerns ie., coke and pepsi then the same students who qualify for free lunch spend $2-3 a day on soda

Want more....??

[Behind the Aegis]

150. lots of good points

I am really impressed with the number of issues people have raised here. I see many of the same issues that have already been mentioned, so i will not repeat them. I will, however, add my own two cents on two issues that I feel is damaging our education system.

1) The amount of harassment that occurs in schools is a real problem. The same ole crap "boys will be boys" is tolerated, but then you have the flip side of schools freaking out because little Bobby brought a PLASTIC knife to butter his bread. Schools are safer now from weapons, except from the weapon of words! Teen suicides are down but much of that is because people medicate the kids instead of going to the roots of the problems: self-esteem and bullying! Children learn best from example and they see lots of hate coming from their parents and the government, therefore, it is OK for them to hate and torment the "fag" or "weirdo" they see everyday in school! "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me!" BULLSHIT! Words don't break bones, they break spirits!!!!!

2) School boards are a real problem too! They don't give a SHIT about educating children, they just care about their own agenda of personal hate (see number 1)! I was telling my partner the other day, I should run for a school board because we have no children and I would make decisions that would best educate the children and prepare them for the life they will have to lead. However, most parents are just worried about their children learning about "liberal" ideas or thinking for themselves. They battle over the stupidest things (Cobb County, GA and the evolution debate). The parents want THEIR religion and beliefs taught, not facts!

I know I said only two...but TEACHERS NEED TO PAID A RESPECTFUL AND LIVABLE WAGE!!!

[OxQQme]

155. How about Admin salaries

and the inequity that exists.
I've heard tales of the Super and principals making several times more than the teachers.
And you'll find them on the golf courses and traveling to exotic high priced resorts for 'meetings'.
Or two high paid admins doing the same thing in schools that are right across the street from each other when one could do both.
Or when a new school is being built how all the carpenters/electricians/plumbers that make $15-20 hourly in the private sector scramble for the opportunity to be at a government paid job site for the extraordinary hourly pay.
Cost over-runs at every level.
All money that should be spent in the teaching side of the 'industry'.

[AngryOldDem]

163. Teachers, proficiency tests

Where I live, which is in the best school district in the county and one of the best in the state, the two biggest problems are incompetent teachers and too much emphasis on having kids pass the state proficiency exams.

We are so fed up with public school administration that we are trying to send our two older kids to private school this coming school year. It will bring us close to financial bankruptcy, but what price a good education? We've tried this supposedly "excellent" district for going on 10 years combined, and it just isn't working.

My advice: Just teach the damned 3 R's. Get teachers who are actually interested in teaching and not amateur social engineering.

As far as the big picture goes, at least in my state, school revenues are determined by property taxes, a scheme that goes back to the days when the state was part of the Northwest Territory. That means that funding is extremely inequitable among districts, which is why all the inner city schools are going down the toilet. School funding definitely needs reform here.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

167. Parental involvement

That's also key and hard to do if you are poor and work two jobs or are a single parent and work one.

[AngryOldDem]

252. Yep....

That is one of the reasons why the city school district went down the tubes here. They had neighborhood schools with a lot of parental involvement until the feds came along and ordered mandatory busing in 1976. Parental involvement dropped like a rock, as did student involvement in extracurriculars. Kinda hard to get active when your school is 10 miles away and you can't miss the bus to get home in the afternoon.

The schools abandoned busing a few years back, after being nearly destroyed by the concept. They're making a slow recovery, but busing was the absolute WORST thing that could have happened. You were left with a polarized community full of those who couldn't run to the suburbs, as anybody with any means did back in those days.

[hector459]

166. We put such a low priority on education that salaries for excellent

teachers is too low. We would rather pay entertainers millions and complain about how they are corrupting our children's minds.

Public shchools have gotten the short shrift ever since integration took place. Those in power decided that since integration they would move their children to private shcools and pay less attention to public schools in the most populous areas. Not ALL public schools have met this fate, only the ones with large minority populations. In some ways blacks suffered from inferior schools after integration because they had some of the most dedicated teachers teaching in segregated schools eventhough their resources were inferior to the resources of predominately while schools. Some of the most brilliant black citizens were products of segregated primary and secondary schools. Black families under the segregated government system of the US took education very seriously. But integration of schools and sports the value places on sports and entertainment by the white majority made it much more attractive to place education secondary to developing entertainment and athletic skills where the pay off was much greater but the opportunities where much more limited.

[gollygee]

171. I think teaching to tests and not inspiring a love of learning is a big

problem.

Kids have to meet the standard - the norm - in order to succeed at school. Kids who learn quickly get bored and kids who learn slowly don't learn at all because it goes over their heads. They often end up teaching basically just the slowest students because the way standardized testing and school funding goes, it's all about getting as many students as possible to meet the *minimum* standards. It doesn't matter if anyone learns more than the minimum, just so long as most students learn at least the minimum.

Finally, the atmosphere is so punitive that anyone who started out wanting to learn would lose it. Kids don't learn stuff they're interested in because it's facinating. They learn it because they'll get in trouble if they don't. Kids don't read books because they're fun, they read books because they'll get tested on them. Etc. There's no time for students to choose subjects in the arts or whatever that they might actually enjoy. They have to learn subjects that will be on some standardized test tied into their school's funding.

There is no desire to inspire a love of learning, to get kids to read for pleasure, etc.

[hack89]

178. Using property taxes to fund schools

Huge problem here in Rhode Island - ends up pitting families with kids against senior citizens who fear not being able to keep their homes due high taxes. When the shcool budget is 75 percent of the town budget if you want to lower taxes, the school budget is the only place to cut. Central funding of schools at the state level is the way to go.

[SmokingJacket]

179. Lack of freedom for the teacher.

If you're a smart, innovative teacher, very often you have to fight an uphill battle to teach the kids the best way you know how. Instead you're burdened with bad textbooks (AND THEY REALLY ARE BAD!!) and stupid requirements and God-awful test-preparation.

If teachers had the same freedom college professors have, you'd attract much smarter and more innovative people, even if you couldn't pay them as much as college professors. Right now teachers are treated like "teaching-bots" and are not respected one iota. This would probably require a major overhaul of teacher preparation. Seriously, teacher education courses are HORRIBLE. (The ideal, I think, would make teacher education a one or two year post-BA program. It would be largely hands-on, with rigorous ed-psych classes also.)

This is sort of pie-in-the-sky thinking, though. But when I was a teacher, it's what bugged me the most and drove me out of the profession.

Other problems: low expectations, faddishness with teaching methods (ie Whole Language), too much paperwork for the teacher, a repetitive and unintelligent curriculum, not enough individualization for the student. Too much cutesy shit.

[wadestock]

217. In a nutshell, you've said it

When I was a kid, I got into science at an early age because of a "no holds barred" science teacher in 6th grade.

How many people can remember facts from 6th grade over 30 years later, like Bernouilli's Princple...."the faster a fluid flows, the less its sidewards pressure". I can even picture him standing there and catching my attention.

Today, the guy would be fired in a second.

Our local schools had a teacher from California come and get all sorts of attention because, geeze...the kids were paying attention...they were talking about "how different Mrs. Brown was".

She lasted one year, got fired.

Try and even call these schools and get the principle to talk to you....you'd think you were trying to call the president.

Problem is...because of all the this corporate scum influence which has permeated our schools, the teachers fear management, and walk the walk.

[theboss]

183. Two big issues: quality of teachers/quality of parents

My mom is a high school teacher with 25 years experience; my dad is a principal with 30 years experience. We talk about this stuff all the time.

First, the teachers coming out these days are - by and large - scary. I'm not saying, every new teacher is, but I don't think it's the same quality as 30 years ago. Anecdotal proof: my mom was salutatorian of her high school. The school listed the Top 20 GPAS. Of those, 9 went into teaching. In my graduating class, 0 of the Top 20 went into teaching. Part of this is because intelligent women have a lof more options these days. Part of it is because of the pay. Part of it is prestige. But, if you have average or below-average students teaching, it's not hard to see what's going to happen.

Secondly, parents have to play a role. I got a great education because my parents made sure I did. If I had a mediocre teacher, they knew it and picked up the slack. They were involved in my life. I don't think that is the case with 90 percent of the kids in public schools.

[Babette]

191. I've only taught about 3 years....

But here are some things that I think contribute to the problem:

1. Parental involvement (or lack of)
Many kids come from homes where they simply fend for themselves. They are not socialized at all. They may be drug babies or be abused or neglected. I have one kid now that lives with his eight brothers and sisters with their great-grandmother! They all run wild!
Some parents prevent the kid from being punished. One student gets away with anything he wants because of his mother's interference. The school tried sending him to an alternative program last year and they threatened to sue. He never does his detentions, never does any work, sneers at the teachers when they ask him to do things and KNOWS that he can do anything because of his mother.
The kids don't know how to behave in class. I have the lowest level of classes- the other teachers had seniority and didn't want to deal with the huge numbers of BD and LD kids that I have. I have other teachers coming up to me and apologizing for what I have to put up with.

2. Overpaid administrators
I taught in a district a few years ago that paid $24,500 for a new teacher. The superintendent owned two Italian sports cars and a huge house on the lake. He made in the 6 digits.

3. Lack of funds
I teach science in a non-science classroom. My skeleton is old and has been beat up by many students. It has one leg and half of an arm. Kids ask me what happened to it and I tell them it was a Vietnam vet. I pay for supplies out of pocket. This school was built 80 years ago. The boiler is so old that parts are no longer made for it. The wiring in the building dates to the 60s. The town will not support a new building even though we don't have enough room or supplies. They have the lowest property taxes in the state and want to keep it that way. When a kid's grandfather comes to the school, the first thing we hear from him is "It looks exactly the same as when I went to school here."

4. Bad placement of students
My classes are full of BD kids because the school doesn't have a self-contained classroom. These are kids who should not be in the regular class! Unfortunately, they are allowed to do all kinds of things (fights, running out of class, throwing things, grabbing the teacher, screaming etc) because "well they're BD, and that's just the way they are". This year the school will not pay to send kids to an alternative school- even after multiple suspensions or assaulting a teacher. Too much money. So we have to be in fear for ourselves and our students. I have classes with 6 or more BD kids, 12 LD kids and another 10 regular kids. Too much stimulation for the crazy kids!
Add to that the influx of kids I got in the middle of last semester who were failing biology. They were moved to my life science because it's easier. Now I have a bunch of kids who are still failing and think they can simply move again to escape the bad grades.

[earth mom]

192. Kids aren't reading enough

our family loves to read-it is a daily ritual. I credit much of our sons' progress with the fact that we buy him lots of books and take him to the library weekly. His teachers are impressed with our efforts and told me that most parents don't encourage reading like we do. I found that to be so sad and empty because I can't imagine life without books! It's sad too, that teachers have an uphill battle with these kids. How different most schools and the kids they are trying to educate would be if parents encouraged and promoted reading on a daily basis.

[fob]

196. Each public school I went to was top notch. Quality Teachers that

cared about the students, varied curriculum, after-school programs, clubs, play time(physical activity), meal programs, Gifted Program, clean and safe institutions and an informed/active community.

Not that there weren't fights or problems, but nothing systemic. It's difficult to bring about an informed/active community unless and until the other criteria are met. If you provide, they will come.

Main problem: Funding. The area I grew up in did NOT have this problem, schools were fine. It's the priorities, stupid.

bush* places war above all else.

[ScreamingMeemie]

199. Where to start? The introduction of the MEAP test-strictly devised as

a way to keep home values rising IMO. Children are drilled for the year ahead of these tests with info that will appear. How is that learning. No Child Left Behind has made even Kindergarten hellish to teach. And, here in MI in our district, the fact that our teachers have been working without a contract for over 3 years, and aren't allowed to strike. I could go on.

[KissMeKate]

200. My public school was great. Read "the Manufactured Crisis

its a book about how anti public schooling conservatives have shot down public schools and created flawed studies trying to convince America our school systems arent working. The fact is, they work for a helluvalot of Americans.

[wadestock]

203. The teachers aren't allowed to teach....and the organization

reflects corporate America. Lack of originality....and a kiss ass mentality.

Testing is linking to money....and everyone is following text books that confuse rather than illuminate.

I tutor kids on a regular basis. I have recently taken a kid who was at a 6th grade level coming out of highschool and got him to pass a college math entrance exam in 3 months. These and quite a few other episodes makes me KNOW they aren't teaching.

[KnowerOfLogic]

207. It's not the schools, it's the parents; but who is going to say this to

said parents (who are of course voters, PTA members, scool board members, etc.)? Who is going to tell parents "You suck. YOU are the problem!"? Nobody; because they all want to keep their jobs. And there is the reason that there will be no improvement in Public schools any time soon.

[tralfaz]

210. where should I start....n/t

[leftofthedial]

211. republicans and religiously insane wack jobs

kill them all and get them out of the gene pool

[scarletlib]

219. politics is what is wrong with the schools

too many elected officials trying to score points with constituents by knocking the public schools. too much interference from politicians trying to tell teachers how to teach and always to test, test, test. too little funding from the policticians who would rather pork barrel spend than help the kids.

[geniph]

229. What's wrong with public schools?

The A1 problem, to my mind, is inequity of funding. I work for a large K-12 public school district - I'm the network manager, not a teacher - and so I have kind of a unique perspective on this. I'm an insider, but not an educator. Our funding in this district is pathetic, because we're a working-class district with a lot of low-income housing, cheapo apartments, and SeaTac Airport - owned by the Port of Seattle - runs right through the middle of our district and pays us not one red cent in tax revenues. We scramble for every nickel here. There's districts like Mercer Island School District, where the median housing price is around $500K, who have money practically falling out of their assholes. So if you live on Mercer Island, your kids get a top-shelf education. If you live in Burien, you're lucky if your kids' school has 40-year-old textbooks and power that doesn't go out three times a week.

The second problem is that people expect teachers to be everything to children. They're supposed to teach them values, manners, morals, make sure they don't have bruises or are acting suicidal, police their drug use and language, oh, and by the way, when you get a chance, try to drill some algebra into their heads. Oh, and here's a new state standardized test - if all your students, including the ones who don't belong in a mainstream classroom, don't pass it, you're toast.

We expect school districts to meet ever-more-stringent federal requirements on educating "special education" kids, which can be anything from a kid who once swore at a teacher to adults with Down syndrome who need to be diapered. Rather than sending the most severely impaired to special schools, they're mainstreamed in the public schools and the public schools have to come up with the money to "educate" even those who are basically just being warehoused until they're 18. We expect the districts to provide buses to every far-flung corner of their district, and we have to indemnify them against the probability of traffic accidents, kids who cut themselves on the edge of the seatback, kids who knock out a tooth chasing another kid down the aisle of the bus, kids who trip and break their glasses on the steps of the bus, etc., etc., etc.

People point to private schools and smugly claim they provide a better education for less money per student. Sure, if you get to cherrypick your students and ignore most of the more-absurd federal regulations on student education.

The teachers I know are working through school holidays, working most of the summer, taking schoolwork home every night, coming in at six in the morning - I know, because I try to get work done on the servers when they're gone, and they NEVER LEAVE, damn 'em! They're buying classroom supplies out of their own pockets. They're volunteering to provide extra services like chaperoning, coaching, teaching afterschool classes, tutoring. They're checking their email when they're on vacation in case a parent asks them a question. They're having to defend their every action in front of ass-covering administrators and school boards with ideological axes to grind and parents whose first impulse when there's a conflict is to threaten the teacher with violence. They're dealing with students who throw firecrackers and carry guns and break their car windows in the school parking lot to steal their crappy old radios. They're trying to hold the schools together with baling wire and chewing gum, and most of them are doing a pretty damn good job of it, too.

My hat's off to you and teachers like you, John. :hug:

[ulysses]

292. thanks, Geni.

People point to private schools and smugly claim they provide a better education for less money per student. Sure, if you get to cherrypick your students and ignore most of the more-absurd federal regulations on student education.

Exactly so. :hi:

[lovuian]

249. My children went to public school and heres what I think

My kids are in a top tier college and doing very well.

They took all top level courses

Public schools need to encourge kids to take these courses

and Math in America is in dire straits we need really big overhaul in the Math Department

How come other countries are beating us out there!!!

To this day I can't believe the stress level they had in High School It was really not necessary!!!

[goddess40]

253. BULLIES - the schools don't do a good job

they actually support the bully atmosphere, there are exceptions but most schools encourage bullying.

These kids grow up and continue to be bullies - look at the republicans and the DNC. Those that are bullied and those that do anything to avoid being bullied become the work force that continues to take what is dished out to them from the bullies.

[dsc]

256. It has gotten much better

it took Columbine to make it that way but it has. More can and should be done but all but the most ineffective administrators have really cut down on bullying.

[goddess40]

299. We have a crap load of ineffective administrators

the school super is retiring this summer and I really like his replacement. I hope the new guy doesn't change his ways with his promotion - maybe this city will take bullying seriously. My son's sure would appreciate it.

I think too many people blame Harris and Kleebold for what happened at Colombine - 12 years of torture is pretty hard to take.

[progressivebydesign]

287. We have a great school system where I live.. no complaints here..

In California, they were underfunded and over administrated. The schools are often run like private clubs for the benefit of staff and a few connected parents. I love the schools were we are now.. except for the born-again Christian youth who try to turn the school into a Young Life project, it's okay.

[kodi]

289. kids having kids, poor parenting, and low teacher pay

over the last several years i have had the pleasure of subbing K-12 in the local public schools about 3 times a month over the past 4 years

there is such a teacher shortage i have taugh kindergarten, 12th grade physics, honors english, animal husbandry (which my parole officer says i should not talk about), and floral arranging (all in one single week).

what I see are some outstanding teachers, some not so good, and many wanting to do better without the resources to get there.

with the kids, i can see almost immediately in their behavior and carriage whether they have strong adult roll models and supervision at home... and i can spot child abuse just from the look in a young boy's or girl's face.

the kids have it tougher than we adults ever did with all the distractions the modern world offers and without a strong adult around to help keep the kids straight, they stray.

not surprisingly, if you look at the kid, you see the parent, and those sour apples do not fall far from the tree.

once, while in the main office of the junior high i was subbing in biology, i overheard a parent curse at a female vice-principal who had called him in because his own child was caught with personal items stolen from not one, but two other students. the father screamed that his kid was not a thief and cursed so loud, the male principal had to end his own conversation with me and enter the vice principal's office to get between the parent and the vice principal.

20-30-40 years ago, if a parent was called in for such a thing, the parent would not even question the teacher who reported on the bad behavior of the kid. BAM that kid was going to be in trouble once he/she got home.

the most significant problems in schools can be squarely laid at the feet of the parents. they are not socializing their kids properly and are not instilling in them self-respect nor repect for others before they get to school and seem not to be able to raise their children very well.

why? because in too many cases, the parents had no roll model themselves and are operating without an owner's manual of personal history when it comes to rearing children.

kids having kids.

Its why I advocate tax credits to parents who have Norplant birth control emplanted in their children.

so, let the kids fuck their brains out, just don't let them breed until they can hold a decent job in the adult world.

[ulysses]

293. parents cursing the staff - we have that happen semi-regularly

at my school. I've been fortunate, I guess, in that all my interactions with parents have been very cordial. I think some of them are in shock to see a white guy. :) But it definitely happens, and yeah, it provides a lot of information on why their kids are the way they are.

BAM that kid was going to be in trouble once he/she got home.

After Bill Cosby started the discussion last year on parenting in the hood, some of the teachers I was around last summer were very much in agreement with him and noted that they didn't have to wait until they got home for the trouble to start. If you started acting the fool a couple of blocks away, the neighbors would snatch you up each in their own turn for a little correction. Of course, by the time you got home, they had all called your mama and that's when the fun *really* started. :D

[IrateCitizen]

295. My two cents....

One of the biggest things wrong with our public schools, IMHO, is the gross disparity in funding between poor urban districts and wealthy suburban districts. Where I live, in Westchester County, NY, the MOST important thing in deciding where to live is the quality of the public schools. If your parents can afford to spend $700K for a modest home in Chappaqua or $850K in Scarsdale, you will be able to go to a great public school. However, if your parents can only afford a home in Mount Vernon or Yonkers, then you are going to get a vastly inferior public school.

For those interested in looking at how these vast funding disparities really play out, I would suggest picking up the book Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol. I can guarantee that you will be affected by it -- by both the tragedy of undercutting inner-city schools and the bravery of some of the teachers and administrators who plod on, year after year, trying to make something out of a losing proposition.

As for teacher pay, living in NY state, I can't say that it is at all subpar. Both of my parents were teachers, and although we were never rich by any stretch of the imagination, we were never poor either. The problem that teachers face, especially in the lower-income districts, is a lack of resources and a lack of respect for the importance of their job. It isn't right when teachers are forced to teach in classrooms without heat in the dead of winter, without air conditioning when it's 90 degrees outside, buildings where water leaks through the roof. It isn't right when we expect teachers to help children learn sciences without any lab equipment. It isn't right when teachers are forced to use outdated textbooks because the district can't afford new ones. It isn't right that teachers should be expected to spend thousands of dollars on their own school supplies each year.

As for the respect for their job, I cannot tell you how many times my parents were told that they were OVERPAID, that their job was "easy", that they got paid for only working 9 months out of the year. There were even people in the district -- and sometimes on the schoolboard -- who actually said that if a husband and wife were teachers in the district, that they should only receive ONE SALARY between them -- that paying them two salaries was the equivalent of stealing from the district! I remember while growing up, seeing my parents bring home papers to correct and lesson plans to develop several nights a week. I remember watching my mom spend an entire summer putting together new social studies modules for the upcoming year. I don't think that the majority of the public has any idea how hard many of our best teachers work, and they treat them as if they are somehow getting a free ride -- rather than recognizing the importance of the work they do, which is preparing our most precious national resource -- the minds of the next generation -- for the rest of their lives.

I'd also like to see this whole "testing" phenomenon scaled back considerably, at least until funding disparities are eliminated. It isn't fair at all to expect districts receiving less than half the funding per student as wealthy districts to score the same on standardized tests. Furthermore, the emphasis on testing results in teaching to the test, which only elevates less-effective teachers and holds down more dedicated ones, while simultaneously teaching the children only rote memorization rather than critical thinking skills.

I say all of this as the son of educators, the husband of an educator, and someone who is currently studying to go into education myself -- even though I will give up a considerable amount of salary to do so. I don't ask for much for when I do become an educator, except for a little appreciation of the task that I'm setting out to do because I feel that investment in future generations is the most important investment we can make, as a society.

[oasis]

305. kick

[Democrat Dragon]

309. I can't believe I almost forgot this, but this is disgusting

Sometimes, the bathrooms in schools, have no soap, and soap gets replaced in three months. The seats have no paper protection things, and I recall in my elementary school, the usage of borax instead of real, antibacterial soap. Schools are breeding grounds for disease. there are kids with the cold, gum under tables, pest problems, cafeteria volunteers that handle the food AND money without any kind, or insufficient protection of the food(for example you give the person 50 cents, and he takes some wax paper and puts a donut on the same counter that you put you, and many others have put their money or if you give 2.00 to the lunch person and he or she uses his or hers hands to put the pizza on a paper palte, I once went to a school that did this).

[Maestro]

310. A couple of good threads to look at.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x1071

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x1227

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x1173

Basically, I'd like to comment that there is nothing inherently wrong with public education. We are one of the few systems in the world that accepts anyone ignoring, race, creed, religion, language, disability, etc.. Many systems route their children through academic or vocational schools so in a sense when the US is compared with other nations many times the comparison is not apples to apples. Having said that, the idea that standardized is the answer to assessing students and maintaining high expectations is laughable and sad. It must change.

[0rganism]

312. underfunding, overcrowding, rigidity, parental apathy, fundy school boards

Once you get right down to it, NCLB is only an exacerbation of existing problems. It hastens the demise of an already decaying infrastructure.

It's a shame we can't have an educated public, but apparently we ain't puttin' no more stock in sekuler book learnin'.