Are we "Anti-Americanist" ?

[BonjourUSA]

I had a long time of hesitation before deciding to answer TheBigGuy's post (this post has been stopped by the moderator). I'm not fluent in english (Everyone here could have seen it), but it's seemed to me this post was very important.

I have first to say why I spend time on the site of DU. Just because I meet Americans with open brain and more informed than the "average Joe". I have just a little problem : the world time ! Because if I want to meet you I must wait midnight (French hour) and go to bed very late. When my alarm-clock rings some hours later I really hate it. Now it's 15:30 pm and you are working or still sleeping.

TBG, you have to agree your country is not the same as the other ones. Almost all decisions of your PrŽsident are going to impact the world. Decisions about foreign policy but about economy too. For example, when your President rejects Kyoto we know the earth will be in danger (The American consumption of energy is +2 times more than the European one!) and we're living on the same planet. I choose this example because we made great efforts to reduce our energy consumption, you nothing or almost nothing. And we are watching you to make a war for oil and you're going to fail in the Iraq stability recovering with the risks for the world stability too. Don't say us : shut up. We'll be dragged in this mess, we know that, because helping you it's a necessity. We need a middle-east stability for living in safety.

Yes, we have the right to criticize your policy because we are concerned but naturally you have the right to criticize ours too. (look at my signature line below)

You employ the term "anti-americanism". I don't like it because it means a gobal refusal of the USA and we don't. I don't imagine our press, radio or TV speaking about you as yours about us, It would be an enormous scandal. I don't know a French web site like FuckFrance.com (perhaps it exists but I don't find it). When you read the most important survey realized every year by "German Marshall Fund" we can see that Americans and European share less and less the same values. 83% of the Americans and 79% of the Europeans - 85% for the French people - say that their social and cultural values are different. Is it a true problem for our future relationship ? When I was 20 years old, America was a model for the French youth (I am 56 now), no more today. Its dynamism is always admired, but not its style of life, not its way of life, not its intitutions, not its idea of the world.

http://www.gmfus.org/apps/gmf/gmfwebfinal.nsf/$UNIDviewAll/DB6E3FB8A75A3C7F85256D96007A1583?OpenDocument&K1E73ABE2

For your way of life, we have just the right to chat with you. The cultural habits are the result of each country history. Your religiousness makes gnashing very many european teeth (especially the French ones). Just for fun, let's try to imagine Chirac saying: "God blesses France". Millions French people would protest in the streets as of the following day! But it's not very important, except when your leaders' speech looks like islamic's one.

[Kamika]

1. dont worry

lots of us post here while we "work" :p

[ixion]

2. viva la France!!

of course you are not anti-Americanist, BonJourUSA... the only anti-Americanists out there are the so-called patriots of PNAC.

[Racenut20]

3. You sound like an interesting person

Would enjoy listening to your views on things.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

4. BonjourUSA bush is not my president! i voted with the MAJORITY against him

and the Majority of Americans disagree with his policies....and do not hold any of his sick values...and yes i agree that bush and his cabal sadly portray a version of an American type of the taliban ...in my humble opinion...please do not equate all americans with them?...I wish to apoligize for them...please forgive us?

[BonjourUSA]

11. We had never mixed Bush with the whole American people.

But watch the link inside my post.

Your next President should choose between making a rapprochement with the European standards or digging the gap. In any event, If Bush is "re"-elected, we are going to the clash.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheBigGuy]

13. Resorting to name calling....

TheBigGuy is a jerk, a narrow-minded nationalist.

Its interesting that the only charge that I leveled in the various threads out there was that I precieved anti-Americanism from some posters.

This makes me a jerk and narrow minded nationalist?

Seems some folks can't even discuss this subject without flaming out.

[scarletwoman]

17. Well, I guess you reap what you sow.

Of course, YOUR name-calling and insulting posts in the previous threads have already been deleted.

sw

[RichM]

19. Yes. Your contention that non-Americans should sweeten their remarks

about US policy by first saying "positive things about the USA" in effect makes Americans a privileged class of people, more entitled than others to comment on policies that affect EVERYONE.

Suppose it was 1939 and Germany had just attacked Poland. Don't you think Americans (or Danes, or Australians) of that day had a right to criticize German foreign policy? How would you feel if some pompous German haughtily told you you had no right to comment on German policy, without first expressing "positive things about German culture, the German people," etc?

[TheBigGuy]

21. Hardly the same thing.

You are drawing an analogy between a facist dictatorship with an revanchist military policy aimed at (in the case of Poland) a land grab that was to be followed by a form of genocide (removal and /or "germanization" of the Poles) with the USA and the Iraq war.

The Iraq war was, as sold by the admin, more of a preventive war (but it probably was really a "resource grab").

Now if you are saying that the US is like Nazi Germany in a broader sense, thats way out of line. Most folks would reject that analogy.

[RichM]

23. Very much the same thing -- & you're also dodging the main point.

The point at issue is the right of citizens of one country to criticize the policies of another, in the case that those policies AFFECT EVERYONE. The point is NOT whether the US today is precisely the same in every respect as the Germany of 1939.

However, in regard to that analogy, it is actually quite good. Today's US leaders would be convicted under the same principles that formed the basis for the prosecutions at Nuremberg.

[scarletwoman]

25. We are VERY like Germany in the 1930's,

and plenty of people can see that analogy quite clearly. In fact, we "reject" that analogy at our peril.

Land grab/"resouce grab" -- how are they different? And how is the neocon dream of remaking and "Americanizing" (not to mention Christianizing!) the Umma all that different from "Germanizing" the Poles?

And let's see -- secret detentions and trials, Camp X-ray, Patriot Act police state intrusions into citizens' privacy, rousing the masses to war fever by means of lies and propaganda, public cries of "Treason!" against liberals ("...who need to know that they too can be killed..." -- Coulter) which go unrepudiated by the powers-that-be, jingoistic nationalism -- these and more are ALL features of the creeping fascism that is infecting our society.

Since your now apparently empty threat of leaving DU in yesterday's thread finds you still on these pages, do you think that you could put aside your denial and defensiveness for a bit and actually take a long hard look at what's really going on in this country?

Here's an excellent piece with which to educate yourself:

Rush, Newspeak and Fascism: An exegesis

http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php

sw

[Forkboy]

24. the only charge?

what a laugh...I suppose you think we forgot your charge that the Dutch were kinky and into war casualty pics? You were oh so innocent :eyes: Maybe the mods shouldn't have yanked your posts so people could see for themselves just how full of it you are.

You made yourself a jerk and a narrow minded nationalist...no one had to do it for you.

[Jacobin]

6. I'm glad you are here.

You are, of course, free to say whatever you think and I enjoy reading your posts. I do not think the poster you refer to represents the views of very many members of DU, at least I hope not.

What amuses me is the people in the U.S. who go crazy saying stupid things about the leader of France, "freedom fries", insulting the French people, and then when one person on DU from another country suggests that Bush* is somehow not perfect, they go nuts calling it "anti-american". It is foolish.

[LearnedHand]

7. Hi, Bonjour!

Thank you for following and posting to DU. One of the things I love about this place -- and as you can see, I'm a relative newbie -- is that people from other countries can and do post their opinions here.

This means a lot to me because it's nigh on to impossible here in the US to get a good feel for how ridiculous we look to other nations with this idiot goat (bush*) bleating for us to the rest of the world. (My apologies to all the goats who are not idiots!)

I, for one, am hugely embarassed everytime bush* opens his mouth because he is such a cultural illiterate. I guarantee you that most of us here do not consider France -- or any of the other nations who happened to disagree with the White House's invasion of a sovereign country -- "Anti-Americanists." I'm embarassed also when the president opens his mouth because of the other America you mentioned in your post: the one who established the Marshall Fund, the one who participated in the Berlin Airlift, the one who sent soldiers to the beaches at Normandy to help Europe stop Hitler.

This president can request an unimaginable $87 billion to ensure he can continue to enrich Haliburton et al, but could you imagine HIM implementing a Marshall Plan? No way!

BTW, the "religiousness" of this country makes many Americans gnash their teeth, too. Rest assured, the most vocal of this country do not speak for the rest of us. We're back here, flushed with total embarassment, working to get these idiots out of public office!

On edit: typo

[IrateCitizen]

8. My wife and I honeymooned for a month in Europe this summer...

... and I would hardly begin to say that we experienced ANYTHING resembling "anti-Americanism". But it is understandable that the actions of our government can tend to infuriate those around the rest of the world.

Two weeks ago, on NOW with Bill Moyers, he had a piece in which he interviewed a Canadian environmentalist (I think his name was Suzuki). Prof. Suzuki spoke of a speaking engagement he had in the US shortly after 9/11. Many people there asked him what he felt at that time.

His response was telling. He said that the Bush Administration came into office and withdrew from Kyoto, withdrew from ABM, refused to join the ICC, refused to sign the land mine treaty, and rebuffed just about every major international agreement out there. Then, after 9/11 happened, they said that it was the responsibility of the rest of the world to join with them.

His comments were not well received. But they do underline the central fallacy of the Americentric point of view held by so many of us in this country. International cooperation is NOT always about doing strictly what is best for America and America alone. It is about compromising to do what is best for the international community.

Unfortunately, I don't really see this changing regardless of the outcome of the 2004 election. Most people in the US just have this isolationist view of the world, in which we should just do whatever the hell we want simply because we can.

[IrateCitizen]

10. On another note, we found your country to be very hospitable!

I fail to see where people come up with this image of the French, Parisians in particular, as arrogant or rude. Our experiences in visiting Nice and Paris were largely pleasant in dealing with the natives. We found almost all of them to be very friendly and helpful -- even despite the fact that neither of us speak a lick of French.

Now, those Italians, on the other hand.... :grr:

[Generic Other]

9. Thank you for trying to educate Americans

We need to hear more people speak to us honestly and without fear of our reaction. We are like the classic alcoholic who will not listen to friends and loved ones who are trying to help.

Some of us see ourselves as citizens of the world, and this influences our politics. I would be lying if I said we are in the majority, because too many Americans live under the fantasy that they are better, smarter, more entitled. Americans suffer from the Greek concept of hubris. Striving for excellence is a good thing, but in America's case it has made us arrogant and careless. Our pride is our worst enemy, and it will be our downfall.

Maybe it will give you some comfort to know that twice I have written the French ambassador to the UN praising him for refusing to knuckle under to Bush. I have begged the UN to monitor US elections.

Remember, when you see Americans sounding and acting like idiots, it is because we are suffering under an occupation government every bit as oppressive as the Vichy government of France during WWII. Like the French, many Americans who oppose our foreign policy have been silenced by the majority most of whom know nothing about the world, yet are glad to tell everyone else how it should be run.

We who believe as you do are working 24-7 to try and rectify the situation our country today. France has been our ally since the revolution and will be our ally long after Bush is thrown out of office.

My father helped to liberate France during WWII. I look forward to visiting your country someday.

I am ashamed of some of my fellow Americans when they act like xenophobic fools. I can't defend their boorish behavior.

If anyone wishes to call me out for being unAmerican for denouncing stupidity, bring it on. I have a very long list of examples.

[BigMcLargehuge]

12. Bonjour BonjourUSA

Nice to hear a French voice here on DU. I don't know which thread you mentioned as locked, so I can safely assume I didn't see it. That said you make a good point about the differences between French and American culture.

Our Ayatollah is scary, you are right, but we're working hard to remove him from office next year. Just tell your government to maintain their counterpoint to our lunacy in the UN. Don't let them give in to US demands for troops, money, or support for our "adventure" in Iraq.

Adieu

[scarletwoman]

15. Here's the link to the locked thread in question:

(It's a bit long -- 162 replies)

Anti-Americanism.....from foreign posters, seconded by Americans.

sw

[BigMcLargehuge]

20. Thanks Scarletwoman :)

I'll give it a read on my lunch hour (American lunch hour.... 30 minutes).

[TheBigGuy]

14. You are probably correct about the bifurcation of values.

"German Marshall Fund" we can see that Americans and European share less and less the same values. 83% of the Americans and 79% of the Europeans - 85% for the French people -

I think that is probably true. I think its very true when it comes to religion, as you note.

If I recall right in France, there has been, since the Revolution, a political tendancy towards anticlericalism. That isnt too much the case here in the USA.

[BonjourUSA]

26. To be clear

The political tendency of the French REPUBLIC govermments has always been secular. But the laws about the separation between the church and the state only date to 1912. French people always have been more anticlerical than his govermments.

That is in our genes. Seriously, we consider religion is a strict private affair. To chat about religion is very very rare. I don't remember a discussion with my co-workers about that, for example. In public school, all religious signs are forbidden. But Catho, Protestant and Muslim schools exist with the same obligation of quality and the same syllabus and free of charge (except a low fee for some ones)

[IrateCitizen]

27. Question on French "anticlerism"...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this mistrust of religious institutions go back to the French Revolution, at which time the Church was perceived primarily as an ally and servant of the aristocracy? I think I remember reading about that as I visited Conciergerie this summer while in Paris.

[BonjourUSA]

34. yes, that's true

Like in every countries church was ally of the aristocracy. But the aristocracy was the ally of the church too because "God" crowned and blessed the king. The power of this aristocracy was legitimazed by "God".

But we are in 2003, and even the young muslim French are only less than 5% to pratice their religion

[bpilgrim]

16. Bonjour!

that was a great read, thanks!

I saw that thread and was disturbed by it as well, though too busy to comment on it at the time - thanks to another 'great' american lifestyle, work, all the time ;->

As an american i know how powerfully nationalism is reinforced in us via daily programming and have witnessed the zenophbia it has fostered in some folks as it's natural byproduct and it really frightens me now considering what we have witnessed since the neo-cons have taken over.

I always knew it was danagerous but didn't realize how immediate and rapidly it would take center stage, i thought we had time to fix it before it 'blew up'...

anyways...

thanks for pointing out why not only is it wise to listen to foreignors, not to mention our ALLYS - sheesh - but that you are entitled to since our policies impact and involve you as well. It is also courteous to do so and DU policy which is part of the GLOBAL community simply by being on the net - thank gore ;-> - and i am feel very fortunate to be able to be able to plug into, it is simply amazing and i want to thank you for participating :toast:

but your last point really hits home with this american for sure, it is very frightening for me, someone who does not practice any religion, cept living, and raising my family that way to see my 'leaders' preach on the teeVee :puke:


more...
http://bbs.globalfreepress.com/coppermine

thanks for sharing :hi:

peace

[BonjourUSA]

22. To come in the USA is very difficult!

Since last week, the French tourism have to get an new passport with data processing marks. They have to get a "deep" interview with the US Ambassy or consulate. And the price of the visa increased.

Many tourists will not be able to travel because they will not have time to make all these new formalities. They will lose money that they versed for their fly and their hotel.

[TheBigGuy]

18. www.fuckfrance.com

Incredibly enought there really was such a site, but it seems to have crashed"

http://fuckfrance.com/

Now what iIwonder is why there is this occasional rabid anti-French sentiment in the USA. Just becuase France doesn't necessarily agree w. US policy doesnt make some great enemy of the USA.

It is sort of bizzarre. Especially given the historic role France played in US independence, and since to of the founding fathers, Jefferson and Franklin, seem to have been francophiles.

(and BTW, you DUers, don't give me those "Why don't you go eat your Freedom Fries" slams....they arn't even French anyway:

http://www.belgianfries.com/

[ComerPerro]

28. Ha

The jackass who runs this site wants a donation.
Right.

One reason people hate France is because they buy into the bullshit they hear.

The most common insult goes along the lines of: "The French surrender and run away". Well, no one seems to consider that part of the reason the French fell in WWII was because they were fighting the Nazis for two years before we got involved. And they didn't have a large body of water protecting them, like the British.

[TheBigGuy]

29. Well, the French hung pretty tough in WWI

Probably not too many Americans are familiar with the battle of Verdun. That was one hell of a meat grinder, but the French did hold that salient.

The French also fought pretty hard in Vietnam, too. And then there was the Napoleonic Wars and Revolutionary Wars, so its kind of unfari to judge the French mitliary on that one big collapse in WWII .

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. No you are not. Because your culture is much older than ours

there is a maturity present in viewing the world. It also comes from the fact that I believe many nations KNOW AND STRESS their actual history moreso than Americans do. But..on the block of world court, we are very much the unruly undisciplined teenagers.

There are so many ways America is represented that it also makes it difficult to decide WHICH Americans you are ANTI.

In orther words, the manner in which we are represented under the radar is far more apparent in other nations than it is here.

The only person who is really anti-American is the person who tries to silence us when we see wrong and call for correction.

[IrateCitizen]

31. Everything you said, NSMA -- with one addition

Europeans are still saddled with the memory and history of having been through two major wars in the past century, and the destruction that resulted from those wars. They seem to have realized, to a large degree, that the only way out of those wars (borne out of extreme nationalism) is an attitude of cooperation.

Here in the US, where we have been relatively untouched by the ugly scars of modern war, we still cling to these nationalistic ideals, thinking we can do whatever we want simply because we're stronger than anybody else. I had hoped that 9/11 would be a wake-up call, but sadly it has not. :-(

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. Spot on

and :hi: I missed you when you were gone...I need someone to help me finish my point sometimes..I can think of no better poster to help :D

[piece sine]

36. America's "Adolescence" is a good thing

Sure, we're a relatively young nation -- with world's OLDEST continual democracy I might add -- but our brash exuberance put us on the Moon, made us the primary cultural focus of the 20th Century -- movies, TV, rock 'n roll, telephones, PCs... all off-shoots of our adolescent exuberance. Sure, other, older nations now also make movies and cellphones and such but America's role as a spark-plug is undeniable. Nor should Americans feel the need to apologize for our cultural contributions. We are who we are.

OK, in foreign policy, we have a very mixed bag -- overall, done more good than harm but we've blundered into a few messes that we still have time to correct...in 2004!!!!

But as nations go, wouldn't the world seem dull without America? I hear Europe's criticism loud and clear and all I can say is, we get it. I mean, look at any iconic Andy Warhol painting! We get it! We know who we are.

[BonjourUSA]

38. And we like America for all that !!!

The term "Anti-American" is a nonsense.

I'm just worried. American and Europeans feel the same thing together: they share less and less the same values.

[tom_paine]

33. Don't worry, BonjourUSA, Amerika is now anti-American

Old American values, liberty, free-speech, etc. are incompatible with Bushevik-occupied Imperial Amerika.

We are a Captive People,a nd we have as little say in selecting our National Leaders as the Iraqis, I am convinced, though the ZBusheviks will puit on a better charade in order to keep this pretty lie alive.

My fear is that eventually Bushevik Values will "trickle down" to local levels. Gievn the examples of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union and Idi Amin and Ferdinand Marcos and other Bushevbik-types, this is not a groundless fear.

But maybe the American People can restore our old democratic-republic.

Maybe.

[chadm]

35. Perhaps the most interesting thing about this post...

is the sort of toned-down diplomatic style. We Americans are becoming so divided that our conversations are inflamatory. We "take a stand" rather than conversing. I'm as guilty as anyone. As a backlash to mainstream culture, I have become a Populist reactionary.

Intelligent Europeans (not all of them) seem to avoid this kind of extremism. Things aren't black and white and that's totally okay.

In Amerika, the tone BonjourUSA takes kind of seems to fall flat.

[hel]

37. I'm still..

..trying to understand the people and different political views here, so I don't feel "qualified" enough to comment if there is indeed "Anti-American"s here. But..

First, I'm from Turkey and didn't know anything about American politics.. Until it began to change my world too. We have a war on our borders. My country was humiliated and threatened. Current US government made me feel afraid for my future, my country and our world. And all these bring me here, to an American democrat political forum, why else would I care about your internal affairs or who will be your next president?

People in this forum give me the hope that USA won't go on bullying the world the way it does know. I felt like a "foreigner" for the first time here when I read that post. I got the feeling despite different opinions, almost everybody had the attitude against what is basically -and obviously- wrong and cared not only about America but the whole world. Am I wrong to assume such a thing?

Oh I almost forgot, I think Americans are all great. ;-)