The European Union is mankinds's greatest political acheivement

[billbuckhead]

It sure pisses off the enemies of progress for the average man.

[billbuckhead]

1. I wish we could vote it in state by state in America

Their constitution is a better platform for progress than what the Dems have.

[Stop_the_War]

2. Go European Union!

[AP]

3. To date, yes.

Compare the EU organizing principles to the US Constitution, and you can see how it is taking a huge leap forward and that it's goign to be very successful.

The US constitution's organizing principle is that no state should be at a competitive advantate over any other state. Must of the rights that guarantee a fair competition on a level playing field are extrapolated from the constitutions hyper-concern for protecting one state citizen from having an advantage over another (and FDR and his heirs have had to spend a lot of time convincing Americans that they should be).

The EU recognizes that fair competion makes the economy work really well, so it takes out the middle-man (the state) and gives all the rights to the individual. Therefore, government doesn't have to waste any time trying to decide wether a right needs to be extended beyond state citizenship. It saves a lot of time, and money and it really gets to the heart of what makes economies work.

The EU is going to create a huge, wealthy middle class, and Americans are going to be sewing soccer balls for them if we don't get our act together.

[Dirk39]

4. A big NO from Europe....

Until now, the neoliberals completely dominate the European Union. Whatever the unions and those, who at least want to protect,what's left of the S O C I A L market system in Europe, tried: the neoliberals prevented it.
The European Constitution doesn't include a social market society, it confirms a free market system like in the USA. The whole govermental structure within the EU supports corporate lobbyism and instransparent decisions made without any kind of democratic control.

I still prefer to live in Europe and I'm happy that I don't have to live in the USA, but until now, this is far from being mankind's greatest political achievement. Very far.

At least there are about 100 demonstrations in France today against the abolition of the 35 hour working week.
The truth is that one european country is blackmailed against the next for the lowest social standards.
It was even a kind of goal of the USA to support the "liberation" of Eastern Europe to destroy the social standards in Western Europe.

Europe is a mess. The corporations in Europe arm themselves, hoping they are becoming the next Empire.
Europe, as far as the people are concerned, simply doesn't happen.
It's a lie just like globalisation, which means corporations can do everything anytime anyplace, while our rights, the rights of workers, the unemployed and the immigrants are more and more restricted.

It's corporate Europe as it is corporate Globalisation as it is corporate USA so far.

Dirk

[jdj]

7. uh oh.

sorry to hear that shit.

so it's going the way of us over here too?

I say we must de-consume ourselves.

We must, there is no other way. Just grow our own vegatables and quit buying shit.

That's the only way to show the corporateers that they need us more than we need them.

[Dirk39]

8. I don't want to grow my own vegetables...

I would prefer REAL globalization:-)

One funny fact: the world was far more globalized one hundred years ago than it is now - considering the number of workers crossing borders. Crossing borders was never more limited than it is now.

I guess we're all in the same trap.
Let's suppose, the Democrats would win in the USA and let's suppose it's not a neoliberal DLC-democrat like Clinton, but a real Democrat, someone like Kuccinich.
Even he would be very limited in his decisions. The U.S. corporations - some of them are just faking being U.S.-corporations within the U.S.A., while they are faking being European Corporations in Europe - could just simply threaten him to the ground.

"You don't want us to outsource millions of jobs? Here's what you have to do and if not: you're "toast" within weeks!"

There's even something "illusional" about the U.S.-Empire. It's an empire, but it's not exactly the U.S.A.

Just think of it: do you (North-)Americans really believe, the most credible and least corrupt of all imaginable democratic presidents of the USA could really change the economic power-relations, without relying on a democratic legitimated international organisation that has more power than all corporations and can limit their power?

Would a "New Deal" be possible in the world we live in now within the borders of any nation or association of nations like the EU?
I hardly doubt this,
Dirk

[sadiesworld]

15. The big picture is pretty ugly...

the only REAL hope appears to be in Latin America (be safe, Hugo).

I'm interested in your thoughts about the "illusion" of US empire and the working of the global corporate elite. On the surface it would appear that nations are forming alliances to oppose the US, e.g., the China-Russia joint miltary exercises, the EU lifting the arms embargo on China (?), etc. But given the global elite, is there really any "true" conflict? Would any (purely hypothetical) war be similar to WWII in that civilian populations would be targeted while industrial areas are spared?

Just interested in some of your thoughts on the nexus of national interest(s) and neo-liberalism in geo-political stategy.

[rman]

12. i second that

but it's to early in the morning for me to add anything intelligent to Dirk's remarks.

[Spacejet]

5. It WAS going well

but then it got fu**ed.

I'm not sure what happened, but some of the elite in the EU have managed to see to it that the EU will now fall under corporate control like the USA in the coming years. It's not going to be pretty.

[BornaDem]

20. I think that was how it was intended to be...

the elite just suckered people in and now the European people are trapped without any real representation and under corporate control.

[gorbal]

6. I like Europe and all but....

There have been better political achievements. Civil rights, for example.

[sweetheart]

9. I said yes for the following reasons:

The Universal Declaration of Human rights is not a political achievement,
rather a declaration. (http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) The
EU is the first "multinational" system of government based around
inalienable universal individual rights. For all its foibles, it is
working incredibly well, and stands as an example to other regioins of
the world to get their act together in consolidating collective
interests in to a more cohesive political system that can stand up to
the US corporate government and push back effectively.

The EU provides for the principal failing of the United States, to
allow much more diversity and self determination amongst the states,
making the cooperation looser and in so doing, promoting a much more
complex ability for different societies to evolve. The US media
propaganda monoculture and its centrallized government strip the very
states rights (in the positive sense) that would allow each state to
develop and prosper by differentiating themselves from the union.
Were US states able to secede and to voluntariliy participate, the
union would have to clean up its act, as states denied representation
would simply withdraw and veto as is the case with the EU... and this
checkpoint keeps a healthy balance of cooperation.

[hansberrym]

16. Can member states leave the Union ?

In the US this was an open question for the first 70 years of the nation's history and many learned people thought that a state could leave the Union. Even persons like James Madison considered secession an option.

However we had this Civil War and now anyone who even suggests that a state has a right to leave the Union is viewed as a far-right wing nutcase. This is rather odd since "right wing" is usually defined as supporting centrallized governmental power.


I wonder just how long it will be before an issue arises that causes one member state to test the waters and attempt to leave the EU. Then we will find out if it is realy any different than the US in this respect.


Related question:

Can member states opt out of the World Criminal Court once they sign on?

[More Than A Feeling]

10. Sorry, I still have to give it up for the Revolution and the Founding

of America. For all her flaws, she has the finest principles enshrined in a country, and before the European Union. Just wish we managed to live up to them.

On edit: I would also put the Magna Charta and the Reformation up there as well, ahead of the European Union. For that matter, they are probably more significant than the Founding or the Revolution. I guess I just a have a soft spot for the home team.

[magellan]

11. I say yes, on principle

Great idea, poorly executed in many ways. The true potential of the EU to form a cohesive and benevolent compact of nations is being destroyed by the neo-corporatists. No big surprise.

[Poppyseedman]

13. Voted No

only because the EU is still relatively young in terms of politics.

Since you are asking if it's "mankinds's greatest political acheivement" that covers a lot of time and achievements.

I'll like to see if the EU makes it 50th birthday, then we are getting somewhere.

I think the founding of the United States of America is mankind's greatest political acheivement so far, but I'm a tad bit biased

[DFLer4edu]

14. A big NO from an American in Europe

Mankinds greatest political achievment is democrary. The EU up until tell now has been controled by the member states and not by the congress which is directly elected by the people. The congress, which represents the people has by comparison little power at least for now. The EU constitution is up for referendum in 8 countries. The two most shining examples of heads of state who are playing political football with the constitution are Tony Blair who is hoping the issue will split the Tories (I'm not really sure where that is right now) and Jacques Chirac who was hoping to split the French Socialists (they voted overwhelmingly to accept the constitution in an internal referendum). A no in any one of the countries could spell disaster.

The EU has huge economic problems. Their economic growth rates are extremely sluggish. A weak dollar hurts foreign investments. There is a threat of stagflation which would be an absolute nightmare. Leave interest rates where they are and inflation could sore. Tighten interest rates and growth in the smaller countries of the euro zone (Portugal and Greece) could be squashed.

[sweetheart]

17. So economics and politics make it bad?

The economic situation is exacerbated by the bush collapse and that
the euro is taking the brunt of the default. This is no measure of
why it is not an achievement.

As well, james madison and so many others did an aweful lot of politics
around the constitution, so that is hardly a measure as well.

The EU union embodies 200 years of evolution in liberal democracy since
the amercan constitution. What exactly is your critique of the attempt
to make a more sound union, learning from the mistakes of america?

It seems you are against the Euro, as monetary policy can no longer
be used to uplift poor areas through devaluation. This is the case
in mississippi, and other poor states in the US... and as much as the
monetary union might be an issue in your neck of the woods, other
nations in the EU are not on the Euro, and each has its own situation.

Germany's stagnation, for example is in truth, the reality of bearing
the cost of uplifting east germany. The statistics, when seen relative
to the "ost" show that the western germany is still very successful
and a remarkable model taken as such... and you cannot discount the
really difficult challenge of uplifting sooo many poor nations in
the east of europe... so effectively and with such opportunity,
more so than in the USA, given recent social mobility statistics.

So when you get beyond the facile, what exactly is wrong with the
EU, that the world's first multi-national union supporting serious
human rights for all citizens is a failure?

[DFLer4edu]

19. I never said it was a failure

I said it wasn't mankind's greatest political achievement. Your image of the EU seems to be a United States of Europe. Europeans don't identify themselves as european citizens. The French are still French, the Germans are still German, and the Brits are sure as hell still British. If there comes a time when europeans see themselves as european and not as Sweedish, French, German, Hugarian etc, and the EU is a United States of Europe, maybe then I will see it as the world's greatest political achievement. Already, the EU is an extrodinary accomplishment, but saying it is the world's greatest political achievement before its constitution is even ratified by the member states is going too far.

[billbuckhead]

21. It's far better than an United States of Europe

EU is a kind of a Star Trek Federation kind of deal vs America as a failed Carthage/Rome/Athens managed democracy.

[flaminbats]

18. brillant..time for a rotating President?

Go through the states in alphabetical order, something the current President might understand, and allow each Governor in all 50 states to be President for one year.

No more Electoral College, no more Vice President, no order of succession necessary! But naturally no system is perfect. Would Washington D.C. not have a part in selecting the President, or should we include the Mayor of Washington and Governors of territories as part of the rotating group? Who would become President if the incumbent died in office..and for how long? Would the Governor of a state both be President and a Governor, or should he or she step down before becoming President?

At least one thing would change, the center of power would shift from the President to Congress. At least elected offices and isolated states would again have some leverage!