Interesting, read some letters in the paper today RE: No kids restaurants

[HEyHEY]

What do you think of the idea of a restaurant that doesn't allow kids?
I don't see a problem with it. Some claim it's a Human Rights violation.... fuck not inviting someone to a party because they're a dick is even considered a human rights violation these days though.

[ET Awful]

1. Actually, any business can reserve the right to refuse service to anyone

as long as it isn't on the basis of race, creed, color, sexual orientation. . . Sorry, but squawking brats aren't a protected class.

[HEyHEY]

2. And nor should they be

It's stupid to get pissed because some people MAYBE wanna have a nice dinner without crying.

[donheld]

125. Then why do restaurants allow republicans?

I prefer kid crying to right winger crying.

[Liberal Veteran]

7. *snicker* --- well, that's blunt and to the point.

I agree.

[progmom]

oops - dupe!

sorry!

[progmom]

19. yes, but what percentage of children are "squawking brats"?

I'm taking my kid out for dinner tonight, and he is a very well behaved 3 yr-old.

[ashmanonar]

31. i have no problem with a well behaved 3 yr-old.

i'm sure your kid is a great kid. what i think they're talking about all the winger kids, little neocons in training. i've seen a few in my life.

[RPM]

38. in your eyes or in the eyes of your fellow patrons.

I fear too many parents see their children through rose colored glasses (and don't hear them through rose colored ear plugs)

At dinner tonight pay attention closely and look critically for things that may bother others... its an enlightening exercise.

[progmom]

43. This being my first kid...

...and having been an annoyed restaurant patron in the past, I spend an inordinate amount of time evaluating the effect we have on the people around us.

[RPM]

122. kudos to you.

I wonder if others do - i thank goodnes for folks like you who do.

:toast: to you!

[LeftyMom]

85. When my 3yo gets in "squacking brat mode" we leave!

Not that it happens often, he's generally pretty well behaved. :)

[question everything]

53. LOL n/t

[theboss]

3. Is this being triggered by something?

I don't see a problem with this.

[HEyHEY]

8. I can't figure that out

It was a huge fuss, but I never saw a story anywhere. I assume it may be because of BC ferries new "No kids" lounge.

[AlCzervik]

4. There are hotels that don't allow children

and it's not like they don't tell you that. I have a kid and i have no problem with this.

[Liberal Veteran]

5. I don't have a problem with it, in general.

For example, a private establishment that caters to an intimate clientele that involves ballroom dancing and drinking should be allowed to say, "I'm sorry, but we require that all our guests are of a certain age for the benefit of our the atmosphere we are trying to create."

[eyesroll]

6. Most of the restaurants around here seem self-weeding

I wouldn't want to bring a kid to many of the restaurants here.

Then again...
I was doing some research into kid-friendly Milwaukee restaurants, and I found a site with reviews, and occasionally you'd see some clueless parent with, "I couldn't *believe* that when I tried to make a reservation at Sanford, they told me they didn't have high chairs." (Sanford is easily the most expensive restaurant in Milwaukee. There is nothing kid-friendly on the menu. It's quiet and the tables are close together and dinner there takes a couple of hours.)

[Liberal Veteran]

10. I daresay there are many selfish people who can't imagine...

...why the rest of the world is not as enchanted by their little angels as the parents are.

[CrispyQ]

56. Agreed. And if they were truly angels, it wouldn't generally be a problem

Am I the only one who thinks that many of today's children think the world revolves around them? We have a couple friend & their children rule the house. The parents have no time to themselves. No wonder their relationship is fragile at best. The children roar through the house demanding attention CONSTANTLY. There is no bed-time, there are no rules. There is simply hour on end of the parents catering & coddling these children. I realize this is the fault of the parents, but how do you tell your friends that their children are monsters & that it's their fault? We chose not to, so needless to say, they are no longer close friends.

I cannot imagine going to a restaurant where these little monsters are also dining/screaming. We have had to ask to be seated in another location due to loud/unruly children seated near us & it seems the parents are oblivious & we have always been accommodated by the staff, and very nicely too.

It seems to me that many parents today tolerate behavior from their children that their parents would never have put up with. My mother simply had to give me "The Look" & I knew to shape up or there would be consequences.

I'm not saying all parents are this bad, but the poor behavior of so many of today's children & young people seems to be more than when I was young. But then, perhaps my lack of patience & quickness to see bad behavior is simply a sign of getting older. ~~sigh

[JohnLocke]

142. Wow, gee.

"Am I the only one who thinks that many of today's children think the world revolves around them?"

Way to go. I thought making hugely judgmental statements about groups of people was what the other side does.

[shrike]

145. Unfortunately, she's right

But it's not the kids' fault. Like I said in another post, kids don't spoil themselves.

[seabeyond]

147. sounding to me like the adults are thinking the world revolves

around them.............personally

i am just more and more floored.

[shrike]

153. I think it's ill-behaved children that gets us all down

We all know the difference between high-spirits and misbehavior. My nieces act like angels when they're out to dinner and always have, but that because mom and dad demand it. No "expressing themselves" when they're in public. There's a time and a place for that. Now that they're older, the girls are all straight A students, active in band and choir, perfect in every way, not that I'm prejudiced. My step-grandsons are also pretty darn perfect, too. And they behave well in public, again because their parents demand it.

Then again, kids aren't born well-behaved; they have to be taught. Their parents were taking them to restaurants with them when the boys were babies. And the kids learned what to do and what to say because mom and dad told, and showed, them how -- and never with spankings.

Whenever I see a kid acting like a monster, I wonder if he'll get over it someday, or get worse. I console myself with the fact that most of them do get over it -- don't they?

[seabeyond]

156. i dont know shrike i am a parent that parents.

i think that is the big difference. adn my kids express their self in restaurant, conversation, while enjoying a meal is a wonderful thing, for both child and adult. they do it in appropriate voice.

i just dont see the problem. i dont run in to too many wild and out of control kids. and if so, generally i see it is a younger child in need of a nap, and that i can empathize. i just dont have to have such a sterile world. never have. even singletil 32 to i wasnt so easily offended

[shrike]

222. You're lucky

Afraid I run into my share (of wild kids). And as I said before, it's not their fault. I've rarely run into a bad kid, just a confused one.

Generally, if kids are good at home they're good in public. My stepdaughter's kids have been taught to pick up their toys after they're done playing with him, to help mom set the table, to finish their schoolwork before they watch television. They are a pleasure to be around, no matter what the circumstance. And they always have fun.

[yvr girl]

284. My niece has high spirits, but is also well behaved (she's 3)

She get away with more at dinner at home, but in a restaurant standards are much higher.

Her stuff doesn't overrun the house either. She needs to put away one toy before she can bring out the next one (or play in her room.)

That being said, I have no problem with banning even the best children from certain restaurants. It's not like there aren't plenty of options for families. I deserve to be in an adult environment if I so choose.

If I'm at a 'family restaurant' I have a higher tolerance for noise etc.

[JHB]

265. Exactly. What I want are movie theaters that forbid parents from...

...taking their toddlers and preschoolers to "grown-up" flix (especially R-rated ones).

If they can afford to take those kids to an inappropriate movie, they can afford to hire a sitter to watch them while they go see the non-kiddie movie.

[ProfessorGAC]

254. You Should Have Read The Whole Post B4 Commenting

The last paragraph makes it clear it's NOT a sweeping generalization.
The Professor

[bling bling]

158. I've asked several teachers about that.

They've all indicated that they see a marked difference in the overall manners of children between now and when they started teaching years ago.

But that too, could simply be because they grow older.

It's an oft-used quote but it still helps me put things in perspective when I read this:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

-Socrates (469-399 BC)

[seabeyond]

162. look at the adults teaching them, angry people everywhere

look at all the angry people at the children on this board alone and they are not evena part of the children lives. look at all the people that feel to be disrespectful and diss people is appropriate. dismissing kindness. whatever happen to teaching and practicing kindness. and i am not just talking parents. everyone is going around angry if thing dont perfectly go their way. it is adults, all us adults teaching this to kids.

the entertainment, how much is it teaching kindness

world events. kindness and acceptance is where

lets see religion...............teaching hate

[American Tragedy]

229. Adults always think it's some new aberration that children misbehave

I've noticed this from talking to my older relatives. Indeed, my parents were told that they were the worst and most decadent generation, as were my grandparents before them, and my great-grandparents before them, etc.

[seabeyond]

232. or there would be consequences

what would the consequences be?

[Telly Savalas]

277. Too many children do think the world revolves around them.

In particular my pet peeves are:

*20 year old children who blare the bass from their car stereos so loud the windows to my apartment shake. Said children are also ones who frequently mistake driving on city streets with playing Grand Theft Auto, hence endangering those around them.

*40 year old children who let their car alarms shriek for 10 or 15 minutes before bothering to go out and turn it off.

*The 30something children that were standing out in the street in front of my apartment last week screaming their heads off at each other.

*Of drinking age children who get drunk and belligerent in restaurants, being rude to the wait staff and their fellow patrons.

*Children ages 5-105 who don't use their nice words like "please" and "thank you".


Given the egregiously childish behavior of people who are of adult age, I wonder why so many folks get fixated on the behavior of toddlers.

[seabeyond]

279. 5-105 who don't use their nice words like "please" and "thank you".

by this one i was just busting up. yup i hear you

[NashVegas]

286. Attention Deficit Syndrome - Of Another Kind

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion.

In the cases I've seen where kids run around commanding their parents' attention, like what you've described above, it's generally because those parents aren't giving the kids the *kind of* attention they need. So the kids act up and demand attention. And their parents - those who aren't abusive - get to feeling guilty about all the time they spend away from them, and get lax.

In today's two-working parent households, and in single parent households, mom and/or pop come home from work + a 30-to-60 minute commute too tired or distracted to *enjoy* their kids - who've spent the day with babysitters or in day-care. After an 8 hour workday, you get to spend 3-4 hours with your kids. And how much of that time is spent in front of the TV, or on the computer?

I know it's not easy, economically, but after witnessing the difference in children who have one non-working parent in their home, I'm firmly in favor of having at least one stay-at-home parent. I don't care which gender it is, it's just better for the kids.

I have a good friend who, when I met her, I felt sorry for her for having given up a promising medical career to stay at home. That was 10 years ago. Now, she's back in the workforce and making more money than her husband. And their three children are, collectively, the most giving, confident young people I've ever known.

[seabeyond]

141. i am just curious about the open hostility

to my little angel, grinnin.

i would never force you to interact or be a part of my childs world, i assure you

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UdoKier]

15. What a horrible thing to say.

In that context, you have managed to make the word "breeder" as ugly as the word "faggot".

I'm really amazed to see this on DU with nothing to indicate that it might be tongue-in-cheek.

A lot of us bust our asses 24/7 trying to make our kids into people that will help make the world a better place, and you just denigrate them all, because they dare set foot in YOUR restaurant. Let me know what places you frequent so I can stay away.

[Sandpiper]

11. All a restaurant has to do to discourage people from bringing kids

Is make sure that they have:

No booster seats
No high chairs
No kids menu

[jmowreader]

159. And sometimes that doesn't even work

There used to be a restaurateur (sp?) in Fayettenam named Bobby Warren. He passed on several years ago, but he and I used to be best buddies because he said I make the BEST menus he'd ever had.

Bobby's big thing was very ritzy fine dining establishments furnished in genuine antiques, and you would have never expected that from looking at the guy, who really looked like he should be running a barbecue joint up on Reilly Road. He opened a French restaurant with a graduate of the Ecole de Escoffier as his chef. He owned the Lobster House for decades, and he started an all-in-one wedding chapel/flower shop/dress and tuxedo shop/fine dining restaurant complete with a minister to officiate. I helped him get that started--did most of the interior renovation and set up the menus.

Anyway, we're sitting there going over the menu and, because of the nature of the joint, there was a children's menu on part of the run. (You could only bring children to the Rose Garden as part of a wedding party.) He started telling me this little tale of why he took children's selections off his menus...one evening a family came in to dine and there was only one high chair left because other people were using them. They needed two, so the adult male of the family took one of Bobby's antique dining chairs, kicked the spreaders out of the legs, and set it atop another antique dining chair. Totally destroyed any value it might have, and caused Bobby's wife to faint when she saw it. Then the guy put his kid atop this contraption. It wasn't stable, so the guy took his kid down, found the headwaiter, chewed the guy's ass for having such a shitty restaurant, gathered his family and walked. Didn't even buy coffee.

[JHB]

267. Yow!

:wow:

If I hadn't seen worse, I'd wonder how people managed such nerve and thoughtlessness. Now I don't bother wondering, I just accept that they do manage it.

[Eyeball Kid]

314. I agree.

He should have billed him for the chair.

[gollygee]

12. I don't have a problem with it

But please, can we cut with using "skawking brat" as a synonym for "child" . . ?

Also, restaurants couldn't discriminate against senior citizens, so I suppose that someone might be able to make a case that not allowing children would be age discrimination as well? But as a mom, I would think that was a fair request for a fine restaurant. Kids do better at family-oriented restaurants. It isn't fun for anyone to have a child at a restaurant that isn't geared to them - not for the parents, the children, the party the children are a part of, other people at the restaurant, or people working at the restaurant.

[rkc3]

26. I never understood screaming children anyway.

Properly beaten, a should should never act out in public - they'll know what's in store for them when they get home.

Seriously though, most parents don't have any understanding of how to act with kids. Kids don't want to go grocery shopping or out to dinner. An hour at a store or a restaurant is a lifetime for a little kid - sitting in a booth for 20 minutes waiting for their food is an eternity.

Once you understand that, you'll be in great shape.

[gollygee]

30. That's why we don't take our daughter anyplace that has a wait

There are places that are set up to have children. Those are good places for her.

But grocery shopping? Kids might not like to do it but it's got to be done. I can't avoid taking my daughter to the grocery store.

[rkc3]

58. Grocery stores are a blast for me and the yard apes.

We race around corners, stop and look at the fish and lobsters, watch other kids going through the roof, and laugh a lot.

Most parents hate the idea of grocery shopping anyway - taking the kids along makes it worse - so why not have fun with it.

I'll take a kid knocking cans on the floor because he's laughing so hard over a kid screaming like he's on fire. Especially if they're my kids.

[gollygee]

59. We have fun at the grocery store most of the time too

Yeah - look at the fish and lobsters. They have pet birds and guinea pigs close to the groceries too - I imagine for that reason.

She likes to help me find the stuff too. And she loves to tell me what number aisle we're in and count things and tell me what she sees pictures of.

[girl gone mad]

133. My kid loves grocery shopping and he loves going out to dinner.

Of course, kids need a lot of physical activity as well, so 45 minutes at the playground sometime beforehand can make all the difference in how well behaved a child is.

[seabeyond]

138. my children love the grocery store

we love to go to store. we haev a blast. lots of people to talk to. i send them off to find the stuff. i let them make choices. we love the store. entertainment for us

my children love the restaurant. we dont do that often. a special treat.

are you for real. or my kids just odd

[UdoKier]

13. There are these places called bars...

they don't allow kids.

Besides, I've seen adults being just as unruly as kids, and most kids are well-behaved, including mine.

How about a restaurant where civilized behavior is a requisite?

I never take my kids to fancy joints, I can't afford them, or a sitter.

What's your problem with kids?

[China_cat]

23. What's your problem with kids?

Nothing. Most of the time. But, just like anything else, there are times when you'd like to NOT be subjected to them.

Kids have to learn how to behave in different venues and you just don't start them out in the nicest place in town where your spouse made a reservation for your birthday dinner. You start them with sit-down, inside eating at Micky D's and work up to Denny's or Shoney's or a family-style Chinese.

If the restaurant even recommends reservations, I don't want to see anyone under 16 in the place.

[gollygee]

27. "not be subjected to them" ??

What if someone doesn't want to be "subjected to" people over 65? Is that OK?

Under 16? Really - you can't tolerate being around a 14-year-old?

I can see maybe for a fine restaurant - not just any place that even recommends reservation, but a fine restaurant - discouraging babies, toddlers, and young children. But 16 is ridiculous. I don't always like being around teenagers either, for that matter. Or pompous arrogant adults.

[Scout]

269. yes, it is...

if the person over 65 is crying uncontrollably, and screams out loud, and then runs over to my table and has to be dragged by the arm back over to their own table...

[UdoKier]

28. Never taken my kids to those fancy joints...

... didn't know that many people did.

But in many of the restaurants we frequent, I've seen lots of kids out with parents, and very seldom are they noisy or unruly.

This just seems like such a non-problem. Sure, once in a blue moon you may see a clueless parent who just sits oblivious as their kids rip down the wallpaper, but most of us would be mortified if our kids were making a scene, and would take them outside if need be.

I have occasionally seen puke on the city sidewalk outside a bar, but I wouldn't suggest that adult men who like to drink not be allowed to walk outside...

[gollygee]

33. There are people who truly don't want to be "subjected to" kids regardless

of how well behaved they are.

We had our daughter at someplace family friendly, I don't remember where but someplace like Applebee's, and she was making about the same amount of noise an adult makes in conversation - happy noises - and we had people complain to us that they didn't go out to eat to hang out with other people's kids.

:eyes:

[UdoKier]

36. That's sad.

But I know some people don't relate to kids, but I love mine, and I love most OPK too!

[China_cat]

66. You don't go out very often do you?

The last 6 times we've gone out to eat we've had ONE dinner that wasn't interrupted by someone else's kids throwing things, tripping waiters, screaming because the restaurant didn't serve what they wanted or just running around and into everybody else's face.

I didn't let my kids do this and I don't see why I should have to take it from other people's. And the worst of it is that it isn't really the kids' fault. It's the fault of parents who think that everybody else should just sit back and oooo and ahhhh over their offspring.

Sorry but you ain't the first to have kids and no, they aren't that attractive to everybody else.

[Cats Against Frist]

101. If you're going to O.G., Chili's, Applebees, RL, Outback, Chi-Chis

(which you shouldn't be, if you're a good Democrat), then you should expect to see kids. Those are family restaurants. They're white trash central, and they're for Middle America -- and guess what -- Middle America has kids. And they take them out for Onion Blossom thingies.

At hip in-city restaurants, and fine restaurants, however, I think that, as a rule, you should not bring a screaming toddler in there, and probably no one under 12 or 13.

[China_cat]

118. Well, I went to Outback

5 years ago. Took my son there for his 31st birthday because that's what he wanted.

Stopped eating at Red Lobster the year they were playing rap christmas carols at 10 on the loudness scale.

We know where to expect kids and where kids shouldn't be. And people take them there anyway. Like the seafood restaurant on the creek with the dining area out over the water or the dinner cruise out on the bay.

Where we all were uptight waiting for the kids to end up in the water and the only ones enjoying their meal were the parents...who were oblivious.

[seabeyond]

175. i will put my 9 year old behavior up against yours any day

he wouldnt be so judgemental and grouping a whole segment of society as you. he would certainly be more kind and compassionate than you. and could probably hold a pretty good conversation with you. must be size you have issue. but then he would never judge someone on size because he is small frame and he gets that all the time.

[Cats Against Frist]

249. What are you talking about. I just said those restaurants are low brow

which they are, and that they give money to the Republican party -- which is why Democrats shouldn't eat there. I'm half white trash, so I call it, when I see it. The food at those places is crap, they're nothing more than a McDonald's with a fancier menu and bigger food.

I'm not saying I've never been to one, or don't go occasionally. I'm just not going to say that Applebees is a classy joint. I don't understand your hostility. And I never said anything about anyone's size. Not one thing.

[SoCalDem]

225. We called them "Country Club Manners" and our kids knew the difference

If they wanted to go to the Crab-Crack (all you could eat Alaskkan crab legs) they had to behave well.. When we went to Pizza Hut they did not have to be as quiet :)

[Midlodemocrat]

251. That's funny, when my kids were younger

we called it restaurant behavior. And they were pretty good. We even got complimented most of the time on their behavior.

That being said, we didn't go out much when they were really little. I couldn't see spending all the money to walk around the parking lot with a crying child.

[JohnLocke]

107. LOL

You're joking, right?

"If the restaurant even recommends reservations, I don't want to see anyone under 16 in the place."

Jeebus. Yuo must have too much time on your hands, eh? :shrug:

[China_cat]

119. No, I'm just tired of being expected to

subjugate my life and expectations to someone else's kids.

[Pithlet]

121. Yet, that is what you're asking other people to do.

You want to dictate who should and shouldn't patronize certain establishments, and painting a whole group of people in the process. You have every right to be upset about unruly kids, and complain to management if things get out of hand. But, your insistence that a whole group of people have to alter their behavior to appease you is ridiculous.

[JohnLocke]

137. He doesn't even want alteration.

But, your insistence that a whole group of people have to alter their behavior to appease you is ridiculous.

His stance become even more ridiculous when considering that even the presence of young people offends him. He demands not the alteration of behaviors, but the elimination of an entire group of people from public society.

[China_cat]

253. Why is it ridiculous

to want a place labeled adults only? We have all kinds of places for the kids, why can't adults have a place or 2 for them? And don't say that I could always go to a bar...I don't (and can't) drink and drunk adults are almost as bad as screaming kids (the register of their screams is not quite as piercing.)

[JohnLocke]

135. "subjugate my life"

1. You said that you "don't want to see anyone under 16."
2. Therefore, to you, their mere presense is "subjugation of your life."
3. Give me a fucking break.

[silverpatronus]

303. geez, get off his/her back

some people don't like kids. nothing wrong with that.

[seabeyond]

146. what kids interfers in your life

i am amzed by this thread the more i am reading. i mean childless i never had issue with kids around, for the most part they behaved and barely if at all interfered with me. as a mom, my kids dont miss with you. more like adults come to my kids and mess with them. my kids are kind enough to politely and kindly interact with these adults that come into their space

how about if we insist all adults leave our kids alone.........

i am really finding this silly

i go to an expensive restaurant i have never been disturbed by any family, and i have seen families there. so what. just looking at a child bothers you?

[China_cat]

252. It is not 'looking' at a child

It is the FACT...FACT...that the majority of kids ARE whiny, screaming little brats and their parents insist that you treat them like gods.

I did my time raising kids. And once in a while I'd just like to enjoy the company of other adults WITHOUT kids. What's so wrong with that?

[seabeyond]

259. nothing is wrong with you being with adults only

and it is not a fact FACT that the majority of kids are yadayadayada. i really dont care how you see kids. whatever. my kid gets around an adult like you i simply tell them not all adults embrace children. not a tough one for them. being more accepting than you, they say ok. and let it go. they dont see ALL adults as asses, but hey, one of the nifty about kids

no one is saying there shouldnt be adult restaurants. no parent cares if there are adult only restaurants. i think were many parents on this thread is having issue is all the selfish, whining, self absorbed, think the world revolve around them adults. i really dont care what you do in life. i really at this point dont care if you are offended by my kids. i clearly see it is not my kids issue. it is yours

[China_cat]

264. I never said it was your kids issue

I said it was yours as a parent who seems to think that all other adults should worship your kids.

[seabeyond]

266. i am saying you are wrong. i am saying

dont tell me what i think. especially when i tell you i do not. i do not think you need to think a thing about my children. i dont want my children a part of your life. my children nor i need a thing from you. i am saying, you dont have a clue. i am saying you are wrong

now. what you think, i wouldnt be so arrogant to tell you what you think. that one is yours. but you dont have a damn clue of knowing what i think, or what my expectation are of myself, my children or you. so telling me what i think............you are wrong

i dont care what you think of my children. they will go into any restaurant we chose to go into. and sit and eat a meal, pay for it and leave. and even if they are under your line of acceptable 12 or 13 it doesnt matter to me. fume, be outrageds, whatever you want, because i dont care.

[opiate69]

301. Youcan say it all you like,

but since you don't miss an opputunity to tell us all how exceptionally wonderful your kids are, it is painfully obvious that you, in fact, do want us all to worship your kids. And the fact of the matter is, just about every parent holds their own children in the same regard. (Think Aunt Petunia/Uncle Vern and how they dote on Dudley in the Harry Potter books).

"...because i dont care."

That's exactly the fucking problem. Too many people simply don't care how their behavior, or their kids' behavior, affects others. In any case, you go ahead and bring your little "darlins" wherever you want to.. just don't you dare complain if, in the booth next to you, my friends and I are swearing loudly or talking about subjects you don't want your precious dears' ears exposed to.

[seabeyond]

308. we are accepting, if they did hear you

i wouldnt be bothered. that too would be a lesson for them and we could probably get a chuckle out of the conversation that you would be sharing with us. or we would be having our own conversation and not pay attention. we can do that. i just dont think it is too big of a deal, and i dont make big deals out of the little things in life.

why are you angry at me. why are you angry at my kids.

[Rabrrrrrr]

140. That's a damn good rule of thumb! I never thought of that easy solution

If a restaurant takes or recommends reservations, it's not a place to take kids.

That makes sense to me.

I love that rule-of-thumb! Wish I had thought of it. So simple.

:yourock:

And I can see it - even shit places that take reservations (the local diner's Friday night fish fry, or local tavern's Smelt Bonanza!!, etc.) are taking them for a reason - because the place is packed. Anyplace that is packed is not a good place for children. They'll trip the waitstaff, get in the way, maybe even get stepped on. Or else a place takes reservations because they are a nice place, in which case kids shouldn't be there because people want calm and quiet.

Excepting, of course, the obvious kid restaurants like Chuck E. Cheese, where reservations are necessary for birthday parties.

[Bouncy Ball]

186. Hang on a sec, Rabrrrrrr

We have one child. A 10 year old daughter. She didn't act the way you described in that post even when she was a toddler, much less now.

For her 10th birthday, we took her to a restaurant that required reservations. It was her first really "fancy" dinner with mom and dad. She and I talked about proper table etiquette for a fancy place and I taught her about the flatware placement, etc. We've also worked on extending her hand when introduced and saying "pleased to meet you." I told her about ordering a mid-range priced meal, never the most expensive dish. Lots of stuff. How else is a person going to learn these things?

I daresay she's better behaved than some kids I've seen far older than her.

The restaurant, by the way, was The Old Warsaw in Dallas. High dollar, old old place, strolling violins, white tablecloth, candles, the whole nine yards. The waiter even acknowledged her presence (sometimes they don't even look at the kid). He was gracious and so was she. We were quite proud of her, but we've raised her to act graciously and appropriately.

You have to TEACH kids how to act and then test it out eventually. If we didn't think she was ready for such a place, we wouldn't subject other diners to a child who could not behave appropriately for such a restaurant. That's just rude. So I think we agree on that point, but there ARE children who ARE very well-behaved. If you had been there that night, you would have never known there was a 10 year old in the place.

[Pithlet]

192. This is key:

"If you had been there that night, you would have never known there was a 10 year old in the place."

They don't remember those times. It's selective memory. They will remember the kids that scream and throw a fit, but forget, or not even notice, the rest of the kids.

I've said it a million times. I don't think it can be said in this thread enough.If you know a restaurant allows kids, and I don't care what kind it is or if it requires reservations, and you don't want to eat around kids, don't go there.

[Bouncy Ball]

199. And I say if a kid is screaming and/or disruptive and the parents

are clearly doing nothing, go to the management and say something, for crying out loud.

Maybe when parents who are responsible for the screamers and runner arounders realize they can't get away with it, things might change.

And then maybe the rest of us parents, who do our jobs, won't be lumped in with them.

[Pithlet]

200. Exactly. Just like any other disruption.

Some people want everything to cater only to them. And then WE get called selfish :crazy:

[Liberal Veteran]

24. I only have a problem with kids when they are not controlled...

...by their parents as happens WAY TOO OFTEN.

People bringing 4 year olds to rated R movies or newborns to just about any theatre is just impolite. I paid 10 bucks to watch a first-run movie and all of a sudden there is a screaming, crying, hungry child. (Granted most parents are smart enough to take the kid to the lobby at that point, but taking a baby to a movie theatre is an exercise in inevitability...the baby IS going to do what babies do).

Taking them to a restaurant that is well-known for being an intimate romantic dating place is asking for trouble and probably rude as well.

Civilized behavior should be required in every public place child or adult (grocery stores included where I have had more than one occasion to almost run down a child with a shopping cart because they running through the aisles like little terrors).

However, I have no problem with places that cater adults only.

[UdoKier]

34. I'm sorry, but most kids are well-behaved...

Maybe you live in a red state where the kids are all hopped up on sugar or something, but I don't see that here in the Bay Area very often.

People bringing 4 year olds to rated R movies or newborns to just about any theatre is just impolite.

It's also totally inappropriate. R-rated films could scare the crap out of a little kid. I don't take my kids to grown-up movies (unless you count silly stuff like "Independence Day" and "Spider-Man"

Taking them to a restaurant that is well-known for being an intimate romantic dating place is asking for trouble and probably rude as well.

Depends on how intimate, and how capable the kids are of behaving, but I'll allow that.

Civilized behavior should be required in every public place child or adult (grocery stores included where I have had more than one occasion to almost run down a child with a shopping cart because they running through the aisles like little terrors).

Oh, no you di'int! Da grocery store is KID TERRITORY! ;)

[question everything]

62. There are too many instances, in the supermarket or in a restaurant

or other public places where you see a really harassed mom or dad trying to plead with their kids. You really do not plead with a 3 or 4 or even 6 year old even if you swear that yours is a mature young adult.

Kids can sense the frustrations of their parents and take advantage of it. And often parents will try to teach their kid a lesson that screaming will not accomplish anything, but quiet behavior will. Problem is, such "lessons" are carried in public, subjecting to all of us whose bad luck placed them in a proximity to such a family.

And, of course, not all of us would like to be all gooey and play cutie every time a smiling child approaches us. Just because you love kids, any kids, does not mean that they should be foisted on all adults.

[gollygee]

64. you don't have to play cutsie

but you don't have the right to never be around kids. There is no reason a child can't be in a grocery store.

:eyes:

[Theres-a]

67. absolutely!

Dining out is optional...groceries aren't.

[seabeyond]

150. who in the hell is foisting a child on you

you act like all these adults are surrounding you with their kids saying, praise my child interact with child. bullshit, firstly

secondly on this board if a parent looks cross eyed at a child everyone yells child abuse, child abuse,..........yawl want this perfectly structured adult like child, (shit after reading this thread even that child isnt good enough, just want a child free world) yet dont dare discipline, scold, raise voice, have a tone, and spank, lordy no you evil parent. then you yell about world revoloving around child and spoiled and out of control children.

a huge wow here

[China_cat]

260. Will you please tell me why

wanting some adult only interaction in a non-sexual manner equates to 'hating kids'?

And yes, the majority of parents ARE saying 'praise my child, interact with my child, you are an unnatural bully if you don't see my child as the most perfect thing in the universe'.

I wish my neighbor down the street were an abberation, but she's not. Made her elderly grandparents and both her parents and her husband's parents wait outside in the car (on a cold and rainy day) because her 'little angel' hadn't finished his nap and she couldn't let him be disturbed. In spite of the fact that these people were all there for the child's 1st birthday.

I pity kids today. They are worshipped to the point where they are kept from having a real childhood. Hard to be a god from the age of birth to 13 and then find out you're only human after all.

[Cats Against Frist]

103. I am a grocery shopping guru

It is my favorite hobby. Aldi, Trader Joes, Central Market, Ballard Market, The Grocery Outlet, PCC, Hy-Vee, Safeway, Fareway, Larry's Market, New Pioneer -- I spend A LOT of time grocery shopping, and I have never ONCE seen a child running up and down the aisles.

And, if you think about it, on weekdays, there's probably only going to be a few hours that MOST kids would be in a grocery store, anyway. Just go later at night or something. There's no way you can ban kids from grocery stores. It's almost anti-feminist.

[kskiska]

14. I'm an old timer, but when I was a teenager in the 50s

parents didn't take their kids when they went out. There wasn't much fast food outside of hot dog stands, and it was expensive and wasteful to take kids to a nice restaurant. We didn't have malls, either, so kids went to bed at a decent hour. When parents went out, teenagers like me babysat for 50¢ an hour (double on New Year's Eve).

[shrike]

48. Yeah, whatever happened to babysitters?

My folks used to leave us with local teenagers all the time (there were six of us!) and there was no problem. I've heard a lot of young parents proudly say they would NEVER leave their child with a babysitter. Is there a shortage of willing sitters, or have media horror stories gotten to moms and dads?

[gollygee]

51. The going rate for babysitters here

is $40 to $50 an evening.

We get family to watch our daughter from time to time, otherwise we go to a family friendly place, or we get take-out.

[LeftyMom]

87. It's nearly impossible to find one!

Teenagers are either too busy or have a real job, Grandparents work or live too far away...

I'm lucky because I know a reliable teenager who can sit for me sometimes and two friends who can sometimes babysit if they have the day off. LeftyKid was nearly three before I found a relaible sitter, though.

[shrike]

139. Figured there had to be a reason

Everyone wanted to babysit when I was young. Only way to make money. Guess you make more at the local mall these days.

[LisaM]

16. OTOH, there is a restaurant in Seattle that has a big play area in it

it used to be a fun place to watch sports called "Grady's." Now, I don't think I'll be going there anymore! (Nothing really against kids, but a big playpen in the middle is a little too much for me.)

[readmoreoften]

17. If a child is quiet an polite, I see no reason but

Children under four do not have any idea of what this means. I do not want to hear one squawking little high-pitched voice when I'm paying for my food.

[ClintonTyree]

18. I'm all for it...............

If there's one thing I dislike, it's sitting at a nice restaurant (I'm not talking McSmegma or anything like that) and having to listen to shrieking babies that could possibly break the lenses in my glasses. If you've got enough money for a nice evening out at a nice restaurant, you've got enough money for a sitter for a few hours. Everyone pays them slave wages anyway.

Some people are annoyed by second hand smoke; for me, it's shrieking or unruly children ruining my evening.

[RedCappedBandit]

20. Well, what age is the cutoff?

I could see not allowing infants or toddlers, but where should you draw the line?


To play devil's advocate though, what would the response be if a restaurant denied service to people over 60?

[question everything]

68. People over 60 are responsible for their behavior

and they do not throw temper tantrum, do not cry, do not scream, do not bother other diners and do not make a mess of their surroundings.

But if they would, they would politely be asked to leave. I doubt that any restaurant manager would ask a family with kids to leave because the kids make it unbearable for others to enjoy their meal. We have become obsessed with "for our children" and if anyone is unhappy being around kids they are certainly considered un-American.

[RedCappedBandit]

70. Why not?

Why not give children the same opportunity to prove that they can be polite and well mannered as everyone else?
A better way to handle it WOULD be to politely ask the family to leave if their children become uncontrollable.

[question everything]

129. I don't know of a single restaurant that would ask a family with

a screaming kid to leave. Just bad for business. I am not an expert on restaurants but like any business, the customer is always right and no one wants to generate a name as "anti kids" or "anti-family." No one will ever justify them, there will always be someone who says that "kids can't help it." And pretty soon a restaurant like that would lose all its clientele.

[RedCappedBandit]

258. You're right..

but I do find it odd that they will not allow kids to enter in the first place, but would NOT tell them to leave if they get unruly.. :shrug:

[JVS]

305. It spares them the uncomfortable confrontation

of telling people that their kids are awful banshees and are no longer welcome.

[girl gone mad]

134. There have been several occasions where I've had to ask management to..

quiet down or expel unruly groups of people, be they drunk or just plain obnoxious. But they have all been over the age of 20.

In all the years I've been going to restaurants, I've never once had a bad experience because of a child or an infant. Never.

[readmoreoften]

157. That's hilarious

I'm in restaurants with screaming infants all the time. It's unbelievable. I find it hard to believe it's never happened to you. You're lucky.

[Sandpiper]

21. That's why I love having dinner at the local Casinos

No one under 21 allowed inside!

[Cleita]

22. Many restaurants that serve liquor can ban kids from the bar area,

which is usually a separate room anyway, and can effectively be a kid free zone for adults who don't want to listen to the whining and screaming while they are eating.

[UdoKier]

41. LOL. Scary bunch of DINOs there.

I've been on a jag about them all day.

I don't why, but their mere existence is bugging me today.

[rene moon]

50. well, the "my kids can do no wrong" people

are bugging me today, and everyday.

[NV Whino]

25. I think there are plenty of restaurants that do allow kids

And I agree that parents don't need to take their children everywhere. Mine didn't, and if I had kids, I wouldn't. I have, on the occasion of having a gathering of people at my house, requested people to not bring their children. If it is appropriate to bring children, I will mention that, too. I once even asked one of my friends if she would leave her (disruptive) husband at home.

[SmokingJacket]

29. I have two well-behaved children, but I think this is fine.

Though I do worry about lowered expectations for children. How will kids learn to behave in public if the only time the ever go out is to the McDonald's play area or to Chuckie Cheese's?

I'm feeling pretty smug today though -- I brought my kids to a Japanese hibachi restaurant the other night, and the two other couples at the bar rolled their eyes when they saw my kids, who are four and seven. The boys proceeded to sit in their seats and hold interesting conversation, no crying or screaming or pouting, the whole time. I was so proud of them.

I bring them to classical music concerts all the time, and danged if they don't sit still. They wouldn't if they weren't expected to, though.

Still -- I know adults sometimes like to be surrounded by other adults, so have no prob with adults-only restaurants.

[Sandpiper]

32. I agree with the previous sentiment that kids should earn their way up

Start them off at a place like Denny's, and go from there.

[Nay]

113. Exactly. Earn their way up. When my son was 3, he had just

learned how to throw a tantrum. His father and I were grocery shopping and our son threw the tantrum right on the grocery store floor. Luckily, dad and I had already talked about what we would do if ever such a thing were to happen -- he scooped up the kid and took him to the car and I put back the few groceries I had picked out.

We went home immediately and, even though this was morning, we put him in bed in his room all day after telling him that such behavior would not be tolerated in public.

For the next 3 or 4 times that we had to go somewhere, one of us would stay behind with the kid, making sure to tell him calmly that maybe, just maybe, after he grows up just a little more, he could start going out with us again.

Let me tell you, that tantrum shit died an early death. He never did it again. In fact, I was totally gratified about 2 years later when my son and I were in line at the grocery and witnessed a 12-year-old whining and complaining and finally getting a candy bar to shut him up! My son looked up at me in disgust and said, "WHAT A BRAT!!" "Yep," I said. "I sure am glad YOU aren't like that!"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

128. Interesting approach!

Non-violent, but definitely unpleasant for the kid.

[noamnety]

Great point about lowering the expectations

I think part of the reason my own was so well behaved is BECAUSE she was never raised in the Chucky Cheese/McDonalds environment to see how kids were let loose to riot in a restaurant.

My daughter always had dinner time in a restaurant as a time to eat and talk, and play time was separate. It is kind of ridiculous to train them one way, then have to retrain them because you taught them a bunch of socially unacceptable habits (like running around a restaurant freely and stopping back at the table to grab an occasional bite).

And like you, my kid was at concerts from the start, beginning with the Bolshoi Ballet before she was a year old. And yeah, we had other patrons roll their eyes when they saw her - they were really rude, though they didn't confront us directly. But she sat glued to their performance the entire time. And afterwards the other people actually came up and apologized, saying they expected her to be awful, but she was great.

Not everyone has family around to watch their kids, not everyone has a babysitter they know and trust, not everyone wants to hand their toddler over to a total stranger that's getting paid "slave wages" as someone here put it. Nobody does background checks on babysitters. When I was traveling or new to an area and didn't know people, I wouldn't even think of using one. I had no interest in leaving my perfectly respectably behaved child with a stranger just because some couple doesn't want to be reminded that kids exist. That's their issue, not mine.

Disruptive kids are a totally different matter, of course, but equating children with automatic misbehaving is quite a leap.

[MissB]

35. If I'm going to spend several hundred dollars on dinner

I really don't want the experience to be ruined by a screaming kid. And I'm a mom.

Now, the likelihood of me encountering a screaming child at a seriously upscale restaurant isn't terribly high. I wouldn't be offended if some restaurants excluded children.

Frankly, if I'm paying for a babysitter and heading out to dinner with dh, I really don't feel the need to experience children in a restaurant. I get that at home. :) I don't see a problem with designating some restaurants as "adults only" and some as "family friendly". I'd use both of them.

[Liberal Veteran]

37. Hell, even most churches have a separate nursery for small kids.

And they are supposed to be "family-friendly".

[BiggJawn]

39. Some of the kids I've endured lately....

I guess "Parenting" has really, really, really gone out of style.

I'm not talking kids enjoying their dining experience and talking and laughing loudly, I'm not even talking a newborn who just filled his dydee and wants it changed.

I'm talking about the kids who run around the place, forcing the waitstaff to go through acrobatics to save the tray they're carrying, flinging food, going to other people's tables and saying "Watchu eatin'?"...
And all the while, the "parents" are either making with the empty threats ("Justin! for the FIFTEENTH TIME<no, lady, it's the sixty-fifth time> come here and SIT DOWN!") or they have this look of mock horror, like those aren't THEIR kids, aliens must have done a body-swap...

Now, if you don't have a problem with that, I don't know what to think. Perhaps I just described your kids...

When my daughter was about 3, she decided that she was gonna throw a tantrum in a restaraunt. I IMMEDIATELY took her out to the car, administered what is now called "child abuse" and took her home and she got a PBJ for dinner.

That was the LAST time she tried to pull that shit, and ever since, she's been a well-behaved and charming dinner companion...

[izzie]

40. And wedding. I thought kids were people?

By the way they acted just as bad, at times, in my days. Better they get rid of the phones while you are eating than a playful kid next to you.

[madinmaryland]

42. We have kids, but when my wife and I go out to dinner

without the kids, neither of us wants to be around kids, as it is our time, and we don't want to be reminded of them while we are out.

[Withywindle]

44. I'm all for it!

Not sure about the cutoff age. You would think by age 10 or so, a kid would have been taught about acceptable behavior in various social situations and be able to understand it, but I've seen some...ah....notable exceptions (Then again, their parents weren't much in the graces department either; you can see where they get it.)

But a four-year-old? Nah, not gonna get it, and that's OK. It just means more PARENTS need to understand there are some places where kids just shouldn't be yet because they have no business there...just like creepy childless adults shouldn't be hanging around the kindergarten playlot.

There are places where kids and adults are both welcome, places that are mainly for kids, and places that are for adults. If more people accepted this distinction gracefully, there'd be a lot less of this kind of conflict. I know that when I was a kid, I was not taken certain places until my parents were confident I could behave appropriately. I looked on getting to go to those "grownup" places as a privilege to be earned (even though they were usually kind of boring. :)) and so worked for it.

So much of the problem is caused by a sense of entitlement on the part of both kids and parents. It's hard for some adults to deal with not being the center of attention. That's how my folks explained it to me, anyway: don't grab for attention. "People come to this restaurant/this movie/this concert etc. to pay attention to the food/the movie/the music, NOT YOU. So don't intrude on their experience." It's that simple, really. If you can be there without intruding on the experience other people are paying good money for, great. If not, go away.

[oldcoot]

300. I have heard of restaurants that ban children under 9

Children who are nine years and older were welcome, however, assuming they were wearing appropriate clothing. These restaurants were located in casinos (which are not child-friendly places to begin with) and were fairly fancy.

[paineinthearse]

45. W.C. Fields forever

"I never met a kid I liked."

[HEyHEY]

55. I like what George Carlin said about kids

"They're like adults, a couple of winners - and a whole lotta losers."

[noamnety]

46. I dislike screaming kids

But I had one that wasn't a screamer. One time she made a fuss in a restaurant, and we dealt with it by taking her outside, my husband ate, then he came out and took her, and I ate. The other 300 or so times she was great.

I had no desire to take train her at "McDonalds" and step her up to "Denny's," and I don't appreciate people deciding that's an appropriate diet for my kid (or for me). It's unhealthy and trains kids to have bad taste (high fat, high starch, high sodium).

It would make more sense to give notice that IF your kids are unruly and disrupting the atmosphere, you'll be asked to leave and can have your food boxed. That's the same as they'd do for an unruly adult, right?

My kid ate at great restaurants from the time she was young. Now she's a teenager who can make soup from scratch, knows how to debone a chicken, can improvise all sorts of recipes. And I'm proud to say she prefers a homemade burger (either meat or tofu) to a McDonald's one.

I'm always appalled at people who think it's best for kids to be fed at McDonalds. We all know that's bad for them. What are they thinking?

[LizW]

47. I don't have a problem with it

But then, I live in an area where there is a great variety of restaurants from those that cater to adults only to those that go out of their way to entertain kids. Plus pretty much everything in between.

Now, if there was only one decent restaurant in town and they decided to ban kids, I would probably be miffed.

[FredScuttle]

49. Espcially handicapped kids

Ugh...I don't want to be reminded of disabled children while I'm out enjoying myself.

Nothing puts me off my King Salmon more than having to glance at some attention-grabbing brat in a wheelchair. The nerve!

(sarcasm off)

[question everything]

52. I have often wished that airlines would segregate kids

Just as in the old days they used to have smoking and no-smoking sections, they should have kids and no kids section. And there mommy can even change diapers for her neighbors to enjoy the aroma and for all of them scream at each other.

[gollygee]

57. Wow do I agree with that

First, people should take their kids to the bathroom area to change diapers. And do it immediately rather than leaving the diaper to stink the area up (and cause a rash).

But a child on a long flight is going to create noise at some point or another. It's inevitable and there is no place to go. I wish I was only around other parents with kids at those times.

We went overseas to see family, and my husband wanted to go business class, but I said it wasn't fair to subject people who have paid for business class seats to a 2-year-old on an overseas flight. He agreed - he hadn't thought of it that way.

[SmokingJacket]

95. This would be great -- I once travelled with a one-year-old who

had an earache from the pressure changes: he wimpered and cried for much of the trip, and I **felt horrible** that the other passengers were subjected to that.

Maybe we parents should take over the smoking sections and put up a sound proof wall.

But I do think they should provide parents with free drinks! Flying with kids is HELL; I've only flown once since my first was born seven years ago, and that was only so my grandmother could meet her first greatgrandchild before she died.

[yorkiemommie1]

124. on our way to hawaii we had this horrid kid across the aisle

on the way BACK the SAME kid was across the aisle! how about that for luck???

apparently the parents had an arrangement where one parent tended junior and the other parent got to ignore them. on the way back it was papa yuppie's turn and mama snooty calmly read a magazine while the kid raised hell.

at the luggage carousel, mama still had that detached 'i am superior' look.

[rene moon]

54. I would like that

I am not a kid fan and there are times I wish I could go somewhere to eat without having to deal with other people's kids.

I love my niece and enjoy my time with her but she is 16 months old and can be a pain sometimes. I would not want to subject her on anybody else when she's being bratty.

I just dont like the parent entitlement attitude that so many people have. Your kid isnt any more special than anyone else's or anyone for that matter. Sorry. I believe in treating children like I treat anyone else, with respect. They dont get special traetment just because they are children.

It worked for me and my sisters growing up. All of us are married and I am the only one without kids.

[loudestchick]

60. There's a theatre here in town where children under 18 aren't allowed

even w/ a parent. I love going to that theatre. I have three kids and it was damn nice to see "The Aviator" w/o babies and 13yr olds.

[LibertyLover]

61. Restaurants with a no kids policy

I don't like it, but I understand that restaurants can do this - so long as it's not based on race, creed, etc. they can limit their clientele. But, as a friend of mine put it - I won't spend money in a restaurant that gets upset over some rice spilled on the floor by my toddler. So, they can tell me I can't bring my kid and I can tell them what I think by not patronizing them.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

63. The real problem is...

That adulthood is dead. People are children until they have children, and then they are "grownups", parodies of people created for the kids' benefit. Sophistication is dead, sexuality is dead, everything is either scatology or sanctimony.

I want to watch movies with lots of sex, drink whiskey in smoky bars, and eat weird foods in fancy restaurants. I doubt many people would want to include their kids in such experiences. Isn't that what babysitters are for? Ideally, places should have rules of behavior that apply to all comers--anyone who screams, pukes, breaks things or attacks other patrons will be 86d regardless of their tender age.

But living in a nation of busybodies, wimps, manboys, spoiled little princesses, and general fartknockers, we don't get an appropriately segregated adult entertainment sector. Even the porn is made by and for teenagers. Every goddam movie is rated "PG-13", and the girls in the girlie magazines shave to look like they're twelve. It's like we're all supposed to be in fucking high school until we die.

I say fuck the whole concept of bourgeois parenting that's in place today. I dread the day when one of these kids is president.

[geniph]

72. I think you hit the nail on the head there, HPG

I agree, our society is being geared toward an adolescent mindset more and more. It's distressing to see.

But don't kick everyone who breaks things out...dammit, I've been known to ooopsie my glass of water because I was gesturing too vehemently, but I still was speaking quietly. Intensely, but quietly! :-)

[question everything]

73. Look at politics. Everything is "for the children"

Adults with no children are considered weird. Don't even think of running for office - any office - if you don't have "a family." When Bob Dole ran for President in 1996 he had to reestablish "fatherly" relations with his daughter from previous marriage.

Most movies and TV programs are kids oriented (that's one more reason why Million Dollar Baby is such a great movie).

Everyone has to love kids. It is un-American not to.

I sometimes see the old movies from the 30s and 40s, like the Thin Man, and am amazed at the way they were about adults without kids.

Have you noticed how many stories and letters describe someone as a "mom?" This should qualify her to express her opinion about, say, the budget deficit. More than, say her master in economics.

[rene moon]

74. Exactly!

You hit the nail on the head! So very true.

[Pithlet]

83. So. Explain the whole childhood poverty thing.

If everything is about the children; if politics are all about the children; if we, as a society, value our children above and to the exclusion of all others, then childhood poverty should be pretty rare, huh?

[rene moon]

86. nobody is talking about child poverty

They are talking about appropriate restaurants for children. You really do get on your high horse about this stuff. Cant those who want to enjoy a dinner peacefully, with no kids arounds, do so without the mommy brigade ruining it?

[Pithlet]

89. You were responding to someone

who said that politics were all about children. I was responding to your response in that context.

If you don't want to eat with kids around, eat at home. Why should the child hating brigade ruin it for me if me and my family want an evening out? Deal, or stay at home.

[rene moon]

90. Why should I have to eat at home?

Why couldn't you (and I mean the general you) make sure your children dont misbehave? Why don't you stay home if you have the sort of attitude?

It seems to me that you are the one being immature right now.

And I never said I hated children. I am uncomfortable around them, yes, hate, no. If I hated them, I wouldn't be babysitting my niece tonight. I find she is the only kid I like.

[Pithlet]

93. I'm not the one who insulted somoene

with "mommy bridgade" You lowered the bar. Not I.

Sorry. I'm goign to take my kids out in public. And I don't care if it bothers anyone else, any more. I make sure my kids behave. But, I'm not going to act like I'm the one impositioning anyone else, any longer. The next dirty look I get, I'm going to glare right back and hope the next restaurang they go to is TEAMING with kids. I'm now of the opinon that people that are so bothered by kids that it ruins their experiences are the ones with the problem, and not the rest of humanity.

My statement that you hate kids was parodying your response to me with the whole "mommy brigade" bit.

[Cats Against Frist]

112. Hmm. I've always thought that about other peoples' pets.

[readmoreoften]

164. No, YOU CONTROL YOUR KIDS

when you go to adult places with them. Or I'll come in your face and tell you to quiet your kids down. If you want to have a family dinner go to Pizza Hut or Chuckie-Cheeze or McDonalds.

You can't make people tolerate your noise and clutter. My parents didn't take me to adult restaurants when I was a child.

[Pithlet]

170. edit. nevermind.

I noticed your other screamlock posts.

LOOK THERE'S A KID IN HERE! I CAN'T EAT, I'LL CHOKE ON MY SALMON! GAHHHHHHHH!

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

207. slut, oh ya mature behavior there,......

obviously you havent read a lot of these post if you are suggesting

No one is saying that children should be banished from public

that is exactly what some people are saying. they dont want to see.......children anywhere. they chose to not have children after all

and want a restaurant adult only, go for it who cares. but that isnt how this thread has progressed

[lwin]

210. Obviously you've never stayed up past 11:00 or are under 30

If you didn't catch the humor in my thread title.

And you are WILDLY jumping to conclusions if you read into any of the postings that people want children banished. Lighten up, Mommie Dearest.

[seabeyond]

213. fuck you

since we are teasing

and no i am not jumping to conclusion the hostility to children. i am honest enough to say it out loud and not pretend that it isnt there

[Pithlet]

214. I got it :)

Even though I disagree with you. I got the SNL reference.

[Pithlet]

208. I'm not being obtuse.

I have no problem with adult only establishments. Nothing wrong with child free moments. I have those, too.

Plenty of people here in this thread have said that we should only go to McD's or Chuck E Cheeses. THOSE are the people I'm responding to.

[lwin]

215. No reason to limit yourself to just the Cheese and McD's

You can have Taco Bell & Denny's too. :P

We can share In n Out burger. No one of any age should be denied the joy of a Double Double.

[Pithlet]

209. BTW

There are places that don't cater to kids that serve 30 dollar steaks. I've been to them. WITHOUT my kids. Not a child in site. Every time.

[seabeyond]

216. ah snl see dont watch it

too immature for my taste, lol

[seabeyond]

177. and you are actually critizing kids behavior, look at your own

my child would never yell at a person or talk to a person the way you are.........hm. this thread has gone beyond absurd

[Pithlet]

178. I was mad, but now I find it hilarious.

CHILDREN ARE ANNOYING!!!!!!!!!!

[seabeyond]

184. really pithlet i had no clue, lol lol. kids move around in our society

i didnt know there was so much hatred and anger and resentment towards all the children of the world. i didnt know they didnt have the right to walk a street or eat food, (or just junk food that is really unhealthy for them and makes them fat).....i didnt know kids werent allowed to talk, or laugh. what kind of world have we created here. we have the anti kids, anti gays, anti female anti blacks anti mexican anti educated anti anti anti..........

i just didnt know

[Pithlet]

185. I'm kind of starting to feel sorry for them.

Life can't be easy when a big part of the population causes one such discomfort.

[seabeyond]

188. lol lol lol lol oh lordy. betcha they dont want to slow to 20 mph

in a school zone too. should have every right to hit that child that dares to enter street to cross

[question everything]

130. Oh it is about talking about children

not doing anything about their welfare. We are talking politics, after all, about image, about make believe.

Just like family planning. And I don't want to start an abortion debate here, but I think all of us agree that the RWers are anti-choice, but they do not do a thing about the unwanted kids that are already here.

[Pithlet]

81. Yeah. Everything is for the children.

That is why children make up the biggest group of poverty in this country. That's why day care isn't affordable to most people who need it. That is why children's services are so backed up that cases can sit for months. That's why I get dirty looks often whenever I dare show my face in public with my kids. Why I can't even go to my favorite website without reading snarky comments about people who have kids, and how we should all basically stay home because other people can't stand us.

Yes, I suppose being a mom means someone should shut up and not divulge their opinion. And, that there should be nothing catering to kids, because there's NOTHING catering to adults. Bullshit. I still value and enjoy my grow up tastes, and have no problem finding out when, where and how to indulge in them. Some of the most vociferous child-freers sound more like children than children do. Wah! I want everything to be centered around me! Wah! Other people have kids, and people give consideration to them! It's not fair! What about me!!!!???!!!

[readmoreoften]

167. NO ONE'S TALKING ABOUT CHILD POVERTY

We're talking about how inconsiderate assholes bring their loud-mouth, obnoxious children into places intended for adults.

If you can relate to being an inconsiderate asshole then maybe you better check yourself. If you still enjoy 'grown up tastes' as you say, then maybe you'll not want a shrieking infant by your head during a candlelight dinner either.

I give you consideration every day. I tolerate your children (and I even SMILE AT THEM) in grocery stores, on the street, in parks, libraries, and museums. Why do I have to put up with them in nice restaurants?

[Pithlet]

173. YOU DON't HAVE TO YELLLLLLLL

This was a subthread. I assume you know what that is, even if people don't scream lock it at you. Someone was asserting that everything was about children. I responded. I don't need you to tell me what this thread is about.

[Bouncy Ball]

191. Reading how you feel about kids, readmoreoften

I'd appreciate it if you DIDN'T smile at my well-behaved 10 year old, ok?

[seabeyond]

126. Most movies and TV programs are kids oriented .....bullshit

look at all the walt disney KID movies, they are geared to entertain the adult. shit, about makes them inappropriate for kids. all programming oriented to kids. get real. i took out like 5 movies trying to find one for niece to watch. kept forgetting all the scenes in these movies not kids appropriate. get real

and as for restaraunts not for kids fine.

my kids behave. they cause no more problem than, ......well hell they cause no problem. probably have better manners and treat waiter better than most adults. but if you dont want them in a restaraunt i dont give it shit. foolishness.

[readmoreoften]

Here here!

I'm in full agreement with you and HPG

[Rabrrrrrr]

78. Nicely said!!

[smirkymonkey]

79. Thank you!

Truer words were never spoken. It's like bloody "Youth Culture" has taken over the country and made proper adulthood obsolete.

No wonder we have the infantile Chimperor as President.

[JohnLocke]

108. Apparently arrogance and pompousness are very much alive.

"Sophistication is dead, sexuality is dead, everything is either scatology or sanctimony."

Apparently arrogance and pompousness are very much alive. Your post sounds like it was written by George Will or William Safire. :eyes:

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

120. Fine, dude

They're both libertarians, so they would probably agree with me on this issue if no other.

If you try to agree with them on nothing you are falling into their trap.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

168. Why is it pompous to note that our whole fu*king culture is

geared towards teenagers, freepers, and three-year olds?

[Cats Against Frist]

111. Thank You

...adulthood is dead. People are children until they have children, and then they are "grownups", parodies of people created for the kids' benefit. Sophistication is dead, sexuality is dead, everything is either scatology or sanctimony.

That was a great post. It's called "expanded adolescence" and it's being sold to everyone on television, just in case some adults might get the idea to pursue other interests besides clothes, make-up, buying name-brand shit to be cooler than one's friends and popular culture, including television, which is the mainline delivery for it all.

I want to watch movies with lots of sex, drink whiskey in smoky bars, and eat weird foods in fancy restaurants.

Me too.

[Withywindle]

115. Beautifully said, and I agree completely!

Thank you.

[silverpatronus]

304. heh...this is great.

can i quote you? you've summed it all up for me.

[beyurslf]

65. I kind of like it sometimes. Nothing is worse than going out to eat with

friends and having kids at the next table crawling all over the place. Have you ever noticed people with the worst kids are the least likely to pay any attention to them?

[geniph]

69. That's why we patronize restaurants with no-smoking bars

...because in this state (Washington), persons under 21 are not allowed in the bar area. If the bar area is non-smoking, we ALWAYS eat in the bar (I'd rather deal with kids than smoke). The thing I don't like with kids in restaurants is how often they reach over the back of the booth and grab at my hair. Little kids are just FASCINATED with my hair, and nothing upsets me more than to have sticky hands grabbing at me. It happens nearly every time we sit in a family restaurant with small kids at the next booth, too - this isn't an infrequent occurrence. It's astonishing how many parents don't stop them from doing that. I'd have lost teeth if I pulled that one as a kid.

If a restaurant offers crayons to people coming in with kids, it's a kid-appropriate restaurant. On the other hand, one that has low lighting and candles on the tables and $30 and up entrees is NOT kid-appropriate. It's no kindness to small kids to take them to such a place and expect them to sit quietly for the time it'll take to get their food, or to expect them to remain seated while you're finishing your own meal, which will hopefully be quite leisurely. My husband never took his boys to anyplace fancy until they had proper restaurant manners in family restaurants (by which I do not mean McDonalds, I mean a sit-down place like Denny's or Applebee's). It's still a family joke when the boys start getting rowdy (they're 18 and 21) - "this isn't McDonalds!"

We were at an extremely upscale restaurant last month, and a family with two very small children came in. My husband was outraged, although I cut them a bit of slack because the restaurant was in a hotel, and I think they honestly didn't realize it wasn't a family restaurant. The restaurant was very, very good about it, though - they made a special dish for the kids (they didn't have a kids' menu) and brought the food immediately, rather than waiting until the adults' food was ready. That kept the kids fairly quiet, but the adults sure had to hurry their own meals up. I don't see the point in paying $200 for a meal you have to rush through, myself.

[noamnety]

71. That was very gracious of you

to cut them some slack and allow them and their quiet kids to eat in a hotel restaurant while they were traveling.

:eyes:

[Rabrrrrrr]

80. Oh, cut the sanctimoniousness

Sheesh.

Talk about taking things out of context.

[noamnety]

102. Hardly out of context

Obviously it's a family traveling, or they wouldn't be in a hotel. Which means they very likely don't even know any other restaurants in the area. From her own description, they weren't disruptive.

Yet the husband is outraged, and she "cut them some slack"?

Cut them some slack for what? For being presumptuous enough to eat in her presence? Why is she even concerned about whether they ate quickly or not, or how they should decide to spend their own money?

[jmowreader]

285. The hotel desk knows where family-friendly restaurants are

Nowadays, though, they probably won't volunteer the information; one must ask, and here's why:

I was night auditor in a hotel for a couple of years, and one night after doing all of my tasks, I was reading the hotel trade magazines we received. One of them told the tale of a property that got sued for discrimination: a woman, her child and the bellman were going up to the family's room at a high-end property when the kid pointed at a button labeled something like "penthouse suites." He asked "what's that" and the bellman told him that the penthouse suites were on the roof, and no one stays in them because they're really expensive. The kid was satisfied with this request, but the mom was furious. She stormed to the general manager and said the bellman implied that they were too poor to stay in the penthouse suites because they were black. (This was one of those places that charges over $400 per night for the inexpensive rooms; if the desk gave you a room key and you're not on staff there, you're not poor.) The GM attempted to make this woman happy: comped her room for the weekend, moved her to the penthouse suites, comped meals, limo service, you name it. Well, she wasn't happy yet...she sued the property for a double-comma settlement I don't remember right now, claiming discrimination, distress, pain and suffering.... The property's franchisor decided to fight it, sent in some high-powered lawyers and finally got the thing thrown out of court because it seems that being told something is really expensive is not the same as being told "you can't afford it because you're a little black boy."

Anyway, this case reverberated throughout the hospitality industry. Before it hit, the desk probably would have told the parents that the hotel has a restaurant but they don't have anything your kids would like, it's expensive as all get out and it's pretty stuffy in there, but we have a complimentary limo service that can take you to all sorts of family-friendly places and even bring you back--and the guests would have been happy as hell. Now? "They discriminated against us; they told us our kids were unruly, we were poor and we weren't welcome in the hotel restaurant, so we want $50 million and the entire staff to be fired"--and they very well might get it, depending on the venue. It's happened to us at the store in different circumstances--a guy bought a $1500 refrigerator, put it in his pickup, wouldn't let us tie it down, didn't tie it down himself, then came back and threatened to sue us for not securing his load if we didn't give him a brand-new refrigerator after the one he bought fell out of the back of the truck. And fucking Corporate decided to eat the old refrigerator because refrigerators are cheaper than lawyers.

I hate Republican lawyers. Money-grubbing fucks.

[Rabrrrrrr]

290. Doesn't surprise me at all

Sue-happy assholes.

It's too bad that companies now need to basically include in their annual budgets the extra costs they will incur due to customer fuckin' stupidity and selfishness and all around assholeness.

"Yep, we're spending millions now because we have to insure ourselves against the actions of people who are just plain fucking dumb."

[geniph]

288. I actually told my husband to back off

He was going to go to the hostess and complain about their being seated about two feet from us, in an extraordinarily expensive restaurant where we had gone for a special occasion dinner. And they weren't quiet at that point; they were being family-restaurant-appropriate, but not romantic-restaurant-appropriate. They did quiet down, because the restaurant staff was phenomenal about it. But *I* told my husband to back off and leave them alone so long as they didn't become obnoxious, so thanks for being snarky and assuming that I'm just basically an asshole because I don't want to share my $100 dinner with someone else's toddlers.

:eyes:

[gollygee]

295. Oh, did you have to share your dinner with them?

Oh my. What exclusive restaurant makes you share your meals with guests from other parties?

:eyes:

[JohnLocke]

110. Your husband was outraged?

We were at an extremely upscale restaurant last month, and a family with two very small children came in. My husband was outraged, although I cut them a bit of slack because the restaurant was in a hotel, and I think they honestly didn't realize it wasn't a family restaurant.

Uh...what did they do to warrant such "outrage"? :wtf:

[readmoreoften]

169. Are you deaf? Do you pay $200 for a meal every day?

I'll tell you what. If I'm paying $200 for a meal, there better be no screaming brats there. Well-mannered children are fine. Most children aren't well-mannered

[Pithlet]

195. Then you'd better make sure they don't allow kids.

It's that simple. Go to the ones that don't allow them. Why is that so hard?

[JohnLocke]

204. Again, what exactly did they do?

What exactly did they do to warrant such outrage? Was it their mere presence? Did they do something that disrupted your meal?

[Rabrrrrrr]

75. Woohoo!! YAY!! Go for it, restaurants!!

[China_cat]

76. My take on the whole conversation

[Pithlet]

77. Upscale restaurants, yes.

I don't think too many other lower end restaurants will do this, though, because they would lose too much business. I don't take my kids to high end restaurants because I want to enjoy a nice meal out without the kids, and so are other people. I would have no problem with a restaurant like that having such a policy.

I do take my kids to other restaurants however. I've finally decided I don't give a shit, because just bringing my kid out in public bothers some people, whether they behave or not. I and my family aren't going to live like hermits because of assholes. If they want a cheaper meal, but don't want to be bothered with other people, they can eat at home, or get takeout. And, no, I do not let my kids run around the restaurant or grab other people's hair. I do not want to hear from the child-free contingency here that I think my kids are better than everyone else's.

[geniph]

289. Pithlet, I think your approach is just fine

My only quibble is people who DO insist on taking toddlers to really high-end restaurants, regardless of whether said restaurant has children's menus, booster seats, stuff like that. As I've said before, if the restaurant offers people with kids crayons and a placemat to color, that's a good restaurant for your kid.

Older kids who are able to sit quietly for the time it takes for a good meal to be served and eaten in peace are, of course, welcome anywhere except a bar or lounge. Bars and lounges should remain adult territory. And I do think the idea of a few restaurants opting to become adults-only is fine. In this state, because persons under 21 are not allowed in bars and lounges, the restaurant can do that with an area of the restaurant by designating it a lounge. The ones that are smoke-free get my business. But I'd rather deal with kids than smoke.

[Guy Fawkes]

82. How about restaurants that don't serve republicans?

It would accomplish the same thing...

[Pithlet]

84. Nope. You wouldn't get rid of me.

Sorry to disappoint.

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. They have a movie theater here

that allows only adults except for a few weekly matinees. It is hugely successful.

[Pithlet]

91. How about tunnels

so people with children can get around without infecting child free people with their presence? Those tunnels will only lead to McDonald's and Chuck E Cheese. Problem solved!

[rene moon]

92. Why do you have such a problem with the childfree?

Why cant you live and let live? I really could careless if you have kids. I would just like to see kids behave more at restaurants, that's all. Sheesh.

I'm going home now. Have a good night.

[Pithlet]

94. I don't have a problem with the child free.

I have a problem with people who tell us we should stay at home, and not dare to show ourselves in public with our kids. Live and let live? I'm happy to. I'm not the one wanting to put controls on anyone else, and where they can go, and what they can do.

[Liberal Veteran]

100. I don't think that's what people are saying at all.

People are saying that some places are not really appropriate or geared toward children and letting the public know your establishment is not geared to cater toward children is a good idea.

I mean really, do you think that it's appropriate to bring children to a restaurant that is trying to create a romantic enviroment with dancing and elegant dinners and candlelight?

There are plenty of establishments that cater specifically towards family outings with both children and parents in mind.

Is it really wrong to have environments geared specifically towards adults?

[Pithlet]

104. I already posted

that I don't think that upscale restaurants are an appropriate place to take kids. I'm not even against environments geared specifically for adults. Some of my responses in this thread are for the rabidly anti-child-in-public group.

[HEyHEY]

96. Hey That's an awesome idea.

[Pithlet]

97. You are such a shit

:P

[question everything]

132. And then there is always Jonathan Swift's "a modest proposal" ;-)

[jmowreader]

165. You know that was an anti-Catholic screed, right?

Swift was very specific about making sure you ate "papists'" children.

Papist is a very old term for Catholic.

[question everything]

174. No did not know that. Thanks for the info

You won't be able to get away with this kind of satire today, though.

Another story that can fit into this discussion is O'Henry's The Ransom of Red Chief.

[Bridget Burke]

256. And Swift was writing "satire"

You now about "satire"--don't you?

[Cats Against Frist]

98. I have a kid, and I agree -- why? Because I want to smoke in bars.

I think businesses should be able to place -- within reason -- rules on the conduct of clientele.

I recently argued, in another thread, that people should be able to smoke in bars, and those who wanted to not smoke, could open and patronize non-smoking bars.

I feel the same way about children. It's not like they're going to shut down your local family restaurant, or even T.G.I. Fridays, or restaurants in that vein. Maybe, a few classy restaurants will ban kids. Just like they make you wear a suit jacket, or won't let you come in without shoes on.

I'm totally cool with it. If I want to go to an adult restaurant for a night out, I'll get a babysitter. If the family goes out, I'll haul us to Chuck E. Cheese, or whatever.

It's called freedom, people.

That said, I am oblivious to noises, disturbances, et. al., and think that people who get freaked out by kids or smoke or people talking on cellphones, or loud headphones are anal retentives, and I wish they'd open their own weird-o places where they can meet each other to have sex on plastic sheets, stare at each other and listen to Yanni or whatever these people do.

[noamnety]

105. smoking is an entirely different issue

because some people are allergic to cigarettes and have near immediate reactions to it ranging from vomiting (yay me!) to asthma.

Kids in a restaurant don't physically go into other patrons' lungs.

[Cats Against Frist]

114. Then people will open smoke-free bars and restaurants

and non-smokers will go there. I don't have a problem with that, but a citywide smoking ban infringes upon my experience of having a whiskey sour in one hand, and a cigarette in the other, with a group of my peers. In fact, I am allergic to drinking without smoking.

[noamnety]

117. There is a difference between allergies and desires

nice try though.

[Rabrrrrrr]

152. If you're allergic to smoke, then just stay away from smoke

So you think it's okay for an entire city to an smoking in every bar and restaurant because you don't like the smoke, but one or two restaurants banning children is OH MY GOD AWFUL! AWFUL!!

I don't get it.

Why?

(And I ask this as someone who is also bothered by smoke, and really have come to love and enjoy the smoke-free New York City, but who also sometimes wonders if it's a fair or sensible law, as much as I totally loved going home not reeking of smoke).


Kids in a restaurant don't physically go into other patrons' lungs.

No, but they go into other patrons' ears, purses, hair, shins, feet, not to mention under the feet of waitstaff...not always, but they do.

[noamnety]

171. "Kids" don't go into patrons ears, purses, hair, shins, etc.

Poorly behaved kids do.

Sheesh. Next you'll be telling me how blacks or mexicans act in a restaurant.

[Rabrrrrrr]

183. Hahhah - too bad you didn't read my post.

Oh, well. Maybe next time!

[Pithlet]

189. You probably know which one's are smoke free

So, you wouldn't go to one that isn't, and then complain about the smoke? It seems that is what a lot of people are doing in this thread. It's really simple, to me. If you know that a restaurant allows kids, and you don't want to dine around them, don't go to that restaurant.

For the record, I have nothing against an establishment that wants to cater to adults, and doesn't allow someone below a certain age. It's some of the posts by people who demand that people with kids can't go anywhere except McDonalds that really get me.

[seabeyond]

131. love your last paragrah, enough with all the uptight

gotta have it my way, my exact way...........or i will explode, just explode attitude.

i am thinking all the times going to a restaurant with and without kids, and i am not recalling any big deals anywhere.

though once my youngest just was not having a good time, and we didnt do restaurants a while after that. now if someone saw the minute to do with him, i guess i could have contirbuted to there, you missed up my world attitude.

but then it was an appleby's

[bloom]

99. Strikes me

as being rather snooty.

I rather enjoyed going to fancy restaurants as a kid. The bowls of mints. The cloth tablecloths.

We took our son to a fancy restaurant once when he was very young - 2? maybe.
I remember the looks on the waitresses face - like OH NO! - but they didn't complain. And our son happened to behave perfectly - and didn't make a mess or anything.


I agree with the notion that there are bars for adults.

There could also be separate sections.

[JohnLocke]

106. OK with me.

It's their loss of money. :shrug:

[fishnfla]

109. People who dont like kids are staid, boring, and O-L-D

Why not just go die already and spare us your dull lives?

When our family goes out to eat we laugh, love, have a good time. You know, enjoy life?

[rene moon]

287. So, I should go and Die?

Nice attitude you are teaching your children

[livinginphotographs]

292. What the hell was the point of that?

I'm 24. I don't have kids. I don't want kids (I may change my mind later, but who knows). And when I go out, I don't want to be bothered by a screaming toddler. I'm uncomfortable when children try to talk to me, so I'd really prefer to not be bothered with it. Which is why I don't eat at Chuckee Cheese (among other things). I don't think that means there's something wrong with me. People who have children aren't suddenly more important than us just because they've popped a few out.

No one's saying children should be locked in the basement until they're 16. If a child can sit there and be quiet for a decent period of time (which is pretty unreasonable to expect a child to do at a certain age), I have no problem with them being there. But please realize that I don't think a bad-behaved child is cute, I find it annoying. It's simple courtesy to not have your child disturb those around you.

And if you're child is one of those rare well-behaved ones, more power to you. Congratulations on raising your child well. Courtesy is all the childless are asking for.

[Lilith Velkor]

302. Insecure parents are pathetic.

I feel sorry for your children.

[ScreamingMeemie]

116. They'll just lose my money is all. I couldn't care less. I wouldn't

even get a babysitter in order to go there. In a while...they'd be sorry. :hi:

[buddysmellgood]

123. That's like saying we should ban old people from restaurants.

Old people are slow. They smell. They can't decide on anything. They are angry at the world.
I think a better idea would be for a restaurant to post a code of conduct. If your kid can handle the code, then take them in. If not, don't. If you go in and they fall apart, you have to leave.

[ultraist]

127. There are some seriously UPTIGHT, CONTROLLING,and boring people here

Lighten up! I am usually the one that starts the cart races in the grocery stores with my kids and dance in the aisles at Lowes Home Improvement! LOL!

We were in Barnes and Nobles the other day and I started a game of hide and seek. hehehehe...

LIVE A LITTLE PEOPLE! My God, how dull and boring to be obssessed about kids being kids.

Children are beautiful little beings.

[seabeyond]

136. i am so with you ultra

my boys and i may break out into song, well i do, in the grocery store. so what. i too like getting that cart going and jumping on for a ride. and this is at 43

i so hear you

gosh when i was young, it was such a treat going to black angus, that was the fancy restaurant. i asked to go there for my bdays. i behaved. and i loved it. was all about being in grown up world. very special

[shrike]

143. Do your kids play with superballs in restaurants?

Like my experience a few months ago -- kid got ahold of a bunch of them and started throwing them around the dining room. Dad just went around sheepishly cleaning up after him. I looked him in the eye and gave him a very firm "no." Then he stopped.

[progmom]

148. the dad, or the kid?

:evilgrin:

[shrike]

149. LOL -- the kid n/t

[progmom]

151. Oh good.

Because the other image was just to funny.

Dad hangs head in shame and leaves rug rat to his super balls.

[ultraist]

154. No, but I do!!! LOL!

I'm 40.

It sounds like the dad handled it well, he told the kids to stop and they did.

Kids are free spirits. They are spontaneous little beings who love to have fun. What's wrong with that?

Adults who lack tolerance and shame and punish children for being themselves, do a disservice to children. There are appropriate ways to teach a child the basic social norms. Most children want to learn how to be respectful. Focusing on the negative behavior doesn't work so well. Catch 'em doing something good! Reinforce that positive behavior. It works!

BTW, the most obnoxious people I have seen in restaurants were not children, they were drunk and/or RUDE ADULTS.

Maybe everyone should be screened before they enter a resturaunt to ensure they understand proper etiquette. Nothing grosser than seeing someone pick their teeth, blow their nose, or scratch their ass at a dinner table. Not to mention GAS.

[shrike]

218. No, dad did not handle it. I did.

That was my point. Dad sort of shuffled around and picked up after the kid. It took me, a perfect stranger, to tell the kid to stop, after which he did.

[seabeyond]

155. 43 years never experienced a child playing with

superball in a restaurant. could it be an oddity. could it just be one of those moments called life. hey, have you ever gone to a restaurant and gotten a really bad meal. or really bad service. or a really rude adult, maybe a drunk. shit happens

[shrike]

220. OTOH, if a drunk makes a stink, management can ask them to leave

If a kid is acting like a monster, those around him usually have to grin and bear it.

[readmoreoften]

160. YEAH AND THERE ARE SOME SELFISH IDIOTS

who inflict their children on anyone who wants a little peace and quiet. I mean, if you're going to name call so can I.

I am a grown up. I chose not to have children. I have a RIGHT TO EAT IN PEACE. There are plenty of places for your kids to be kids. Why don't you let adults be adults. Can I have a romantic dinner, or a quiet moment after work without child-happy idiots dragging their shrieking brood into grown-up spaces?

I'd like to LIVE A LITTLE, but shrieking infants in public spaces ain't my idea of life. THAT'S WHY I DON'T HAVE ANY.

[Pithlet]

163. If you don't want to eat around kids

You don't have to go to restaurants that allow them. Selfish are those who want people to stay home because they have kids. Selfish is thinking the whole world has to change to accommodate you. Selfish is hating and insistent you shouldn't have to be around a huge segment of the population. Plenty of people are loud and obnoxious. Even if some of you had your way, and parents were forced to stick to McDonalds, you wouldn't be assured a peaceful meal. Loud laughter. Cell phone talkers. Obnoxious music. If you want absolute peace, and you're so high strung that you can't enjoy a meal without it, home is your best bet.

[seabeyond]

166. well maybe the repugs saying how little family value dems have

isnt to far off the mark. hey adult space., when did you decide restaurant is an adult place. it is an eating establishment. go figure, kids eat too. dont think it is all about adult

[Pithlet]

176. Screaching infant. Coming from the person who's scream locking.

That's hilarious.

[progmom]

179. You don't have any kids?

...or you don't have any life?

Your post was a little unclear on that.

[Pithlet]

180. THEY DON'T HAVE ANY KIDS

DIDN'T YOU HEAR THEM?

[progmom]

182. I heard that...

...but I read the other between the lines. :evilgrin:

[REP]

197. No Kids = Extra Fun Life

Don't make mean assumptions about us, and we won't make any about you, m'kay?

[progmom]

203. REP - I think you may have misunderstood me.

I didn't mean no kids=no life. I was giving that poster a hard time for his attitude. I have only been a mom for 3 years, and my life was certainly not empty before the big event. I have no issues whatsoever with people who choose not to have children.

[ultraist]

211. No kids=xtra fun life?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I didn't have children until I was thirty and I have had a lot more fun with my kids than I have with adults.

I happen to love kids and do a lot of volunteer work with kids. They are amazing. They speak from the heart and are not all caught up in weird neuroses like many adults are. I enjoy their honest spontaneity!

I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing not to have children but claiming childless people have more fun is ridiculous.

[REP]

247. In Other Words....

I'm entitled to my opinion, but it's wrong?

You think your life is more fun with children. Fine.

I KNOW my life is much better without children. Not an opinion - a fact.

I won't tell you how your life sucks if you'll do me the same favor, m'kay? Great!

[ultraist]

193. What type of places are you patronizing?

Because I highly doubt you will see many children in very high end restaurants. And if there are children there, I bet the large majority are well behaved!

Stop going to Denny's, Pizza Hut, Bob Evans, Applebees, Outback Steakhouse, Tripps, and other places that market to families during family dinner hours, go later in the evening when most children are home in bed.

The fact is, nearly 90% of adults have children in this society. Our society is set up to cater to families. I'm sorry you hate children so much, you are really missing out on one the biggest gifts of life.

[American Tragedy]

241. 90%? Really? Where did you get that number?

I had no idea it was that high.

[REP]

194. Amen

Why is that some people are so willing to assume such awful things about those who thought it through and decided against reproducing? Jealousy? Fear? What is it?

We chose not to have children. Nothing against your precious wonderful gift from above cancer-curer - we just don't want any ourselves, and prefer to be around other adults.

[Pithlet]

196. Then go to places that only allow adults.

I don't understand what is so hard about that. If it is a public place, and it allows children, then don't go there.

[REP]

201. But Why the Hostility To The Child-Free?

By and large, we are avoiding places that cater to children and families whenever possible. We aren't running around slapping screaming children or even raising our voices when they behave badly, but yet expressing the desire not to be surrounded by them, you'd think we'd demanded that they all be shot.

[Pithlet]

206. I've only seen hostility towards parents and kids in this thread.

I have no problem with people who don't want to be around kids. We all have our preferences. But, insisting that people with kids stay home or stick to Chuck E Cheeses is rather ridiculous. Those are the posts that are getting most of the flames. And, I don't understand why people are so shocked to see kids in a pubic place that doesn't bar them.

[REP]

246. Really?!!

I see plenty of hostility toward the childfree; in repsonse to my rather mild posts, I've already seen the ancient come-back of "it's a good thing you don't have kids!" (always said as though I'd disagree and rip out my tubal ligation on the spot or something).

There isn't shock at seeing children in public; it's shock at seeing so many of them places where it is clearly inappropriate for them to be, and that their parents think of themselves first and the comfort and safety of their children last, if at all. An upscale restaurant is not an enjoyable place for a toddler, and expecting a young child to behave properly (that is, sit still, remain seated and be quiet) is expecting far more than a young child is capable of, and makes the experience miserable for the child and everyone within running/hearing distance of the cranky child.

[Pithlet]

248. Yes, really.

You asked me why the hostility? I don't know why you asked me, for one thing, because I've shown absolutely NO hostility toward child-free people. Not just in this thread. Ever.

Why is it a shock to see kids in any public place? Yes, they are people. So are their parents. I've said it before (no hostility intended), if anyone wants to go someplace where there are no kids, they should make sure that the place they're going to doesn't allow them. It should be easy enough to call ahead, first.

I never said the behavior of the other side was perfect, but the hostility towards people with kids far outweights anything else.

[seabeyond]

205. rep i would never suggest an adult not wanting children to have

them. but in all the post with people not wanting children, i hear such contempt for children. such dislike.

Nothing against your precious wonderful gift

if that is the most snotty of comments. no one is talking to the non child adult like that. but yawl feel perfectly validated speaking to parents like this. as........you critize childrens behavior. i am merely suggesting all these adults having such issue with child behavior are behaving worse then my children at the youngest of age. which i find extremely ironic, and a bit funny. talking about spoiled children, children thinking the world revolves around them, as the adult is doing exactly that

dont you see the funny in this.

no one is suggesting you have a child, not at all. much more comfortable you being childless. good decision

[REP]

245. Sorry, Can't Parse Your Post

I had a hard time parsing your post; it seems to about something I didn't write about. My post was about the hostility towards the childfree, and while your post demonstrates quite a bit of this, it does not address why such hostility is felt.

Incidentally, nowhere did I mention the behavior of children. Funny that you thought I did, isn't it.

[ernstbass]

263. I'm with you readmoreoften

[seabeyond]

161. how many people just shocked by the hostility kto kids, truly

how many people are just floored by the attitude on this thread, cause i am really just sitting here with my mouth hanging open with so many of these post. people are talking about the spoiled child. talking about the child that thinks the world totally revolves around them. well hell, at least that is psychologically appropriate for a child to feel that way, but really we are supposed to out grow it. i am listening to a bunch of spoiled the world revolves around me adults. maybe if some of you had kids, you wouldnt be so very self absorbed having to give up only thinking of self for another

no really i am teasing, i dont want a single one of you to have a child. really i dont

am i the only one that didnt have a clue so many felt like this. really i didnt think anyone really had issue with children they were one after all. some of the people sounds like it wasnt so long ago

[livinginphotographs]

293. Not attacking the childfree?

Yeah, right:

" i am listening to a bunch of spoiled the world revolves around me adults. maybe if some of you had kids, you wouldnt be so very self absorbed having to give up only thinking of self for another"

So being childfree and preferring to not be around children is self-absorbed, huh? Wow, I didn't realize what a horrible person I was.

"no really i am teasing, i dont want a single one of you to have a child. really i dont"

Right, because we'd all be vicious child abusers. Okay now I'm convinced. You've convinced. I am truly a terrible, terrible person.

Oh wait, I forgot to add :eyes:

[MrSlayer]

172. I like having fun when I'm out. Kids are usually fun to be around.

Whether I'm with my friends, my wife and kids or whomever there is bound to be a lot of laughing and noise around my table. Fancy restaurant or fast food joint makes no difference, I'm paying the bill, I'll fucking enjoy myself. People bringing kids to restaurants doesn't bother me in the least but if an owner wants to have an adults only establishment I see no problem.

[Bouncy Ball]

181. Higher up in this thread people referred to

misbehaving, out of control children as only seeming to belong to repukes.

That is not true. A person's political affiliation seems to have little to do with the behavior of their children. I know Democrats who have wonderfully behaved kids and Democrats who have um, horribly behaved children. I know republicans with horribly behaved children and republicans with wonderfully behaved kids.

I just wanted to kinda put that myth to rest.

[seabeyond]

187. absolutely n/t

[progmom]

190. I'm with you 100%

As I have said repeatedly - there are good people and bad people of all political persuasions. We do ourselves a disservice by attributing all negative characteristics to conservatives.

[Bouncy Ball]

198. BY the way,

how many of the people bitching about kids in restaurants on this thread have actually SAID SOMETHING about the kids WHILE they are there?

I have.

I'm a mom. I have a 10 year old daughter. One kid. And I have opened my mouth and told management when there are kids who are clearly out of control. Running around the place, screaming at 500 decibels. The parents acting like they don't notice. I can see how people could get upset, I have!!!!

But what you do is you SAY SOMETHING. Get a manager. POINT IT OUT. What are the parents going to do? Throw a teething ring at you? We were once seated beside a family with THREE children, all under the age of five, from the looks of it. ALL OF THEM WERE SCREAMING. All three. All of the time.

After about ten minutes of this, and seeing the two adults doing nothing but talking louder to hear each other over the din, I walked to the front of the establishment to find a manager. I explained the situation (he could hear it from there) and told him either something is done or we leave (we were halfway done with our meal). I told him in NO uncertain terms that I expect to have a HALFWAY peaceful meal. I returned to my table, and he came to speak to them. They got in a huff and left (they hadn't ordered yet).

Done. Peace reigned. When they left the people around us looked like they wanted to applaud their departure.

I've got a kid myself, but I cannot imagine just sitting there letting her scream her fool head off in a restaurant. Hell, I wouldn't let her do that in a freaking fast food place when she was a younger kid.

I ALSO cannot imagine just sitting there, stewing about it when you could get up and say something. If the management does nothing about it, demand a refund of your money. And no, I'm not kidding.

Speaking up will help to solve things.

[Rabrrrrrr]

212. Absolutely! And that's just the sort of situation that pisses me off

no end. The parents who don't give a goddamn about anyone else and think that their beautiful oh-so-perfect-wondrous-god's-gift-to-the-universe-children can do whatever the fucking hell they want because either a) they couldn't possibly ever be doing anything bad or b) they're my kids and goddamn anyone who would deny me the right to take them anywhere in the world no matter how inappropriate.

:hugs: BouncyBall!

Speak up is right - call management.

Man, there are a shitload of asshole useless fuckall parents in this country.

I'm glad you are a good one! Esp. in regards to your post above about your daughter - wonderful!! I've been lucky, in that I've had youth groups that I could take a group of 8 or more to a nice restaurant and sit with them for 2-3 hours and have awesome, quiet, but still wonderfully teenage conversations without disturbing anyone or ever being embarassed by them - in fact, being quite proud of them. But they all had educated, non-selfish parents. And my niece and nephew - I feel perfectly safe taking them anywhere, no matter how fancy. Yeah, my nephew eats with his mouth open and it's really gross, but both of them are so well-behaved, and so quiet that, quite truthfully, it sometimes kinda creeps me out. Even at a level which, for them, would be screaming and out of control, I can still hear the clock ticking, they're that quiet and well behaved. But that's pretty damned rare - at least I hope it's pretty damned rare. Teenagers shouldn't be that quiet. But, well, there you go - they are.

[Bouncy Ball]

217. Teenagers are actually quite lovely people.

They are some of my most favorite people in the whole world. I chose to work with them intentionally. And I literally spend all day with them.

They are fascinating. Not yet jaded (usually!). Every now and then you can catch a glimpse of the little kid they were on their face, and if you are lucky, you can catch the adult they will be on their face, too.

They say some damn profound things and they know how to cut through bullshit. In fact, they seem to have radar for it.

Thanks Rab. It feels like we get lumped in with the parents who just sit there and do nothing. Honestly, I know parents like that, and it's a defense mechanism. I'm NOT excusing their lack of parenting. It's inexcusable. But I've noticed they just give up and shut down. Which is horrible for the kids.

By the way, my half-sister and half-brother were parented by people who indulged them in their every whim and never disciplined them. They are adults today and complete and TOTAL messes. One is heavily into drug dealing and is addicted to heroin. He's been in and out of jail and rehab. Attempted suicide three times. The other is divorced at 23 with four kids, whom my father and stepmother are raising because she "just can't handle it." The four kids are all under the age of five. She's also strung out on drugs.

They are extreme cases, but there's a reason they call it "spoiled." Spoiled food is food that's been allowed to go rotten. Bad. It's not a pretty thing.

Your niece and nephew sound lovely, by the way.

[shrike]

234. My nephew: I call him Little Boy Lost

He's twelve and his parents let him do whatever he wants: stay up past midnight, eat whenever he wishes (Mom hates to cook.) Dad works all the time and Mom likes to leave him home with his baby brother so she can go see her friends.

Thing is, he's a sweet kid. I've always liked him, but he seems uncomfortable around me. He gravitates more towards men, follows my husband around like a puppy. I think he wants rules and guidance. He's not doing well in school at all but mom and dad don't do too much about it. He hasn't been in trouble yet, but I worry about his future.

He's my nephew by marriage and I'm not close to either of his parents. I've asked my husband to talk with his brother about the kid, but Hubby is reluctant to interfere.

[seabeyond]

237. 12 year old boy trying to learn what being a man is

father isnt around. and he needs it so bad. why the grandpa. just to hang and watch what a man is and get validation. this is what bothers me. people that have the kids, and then arent parents. tis sad. i feel for the baby, yes even at 12. but there is another baby that is doing without too.

just sad. wish you the best with him. and you, 12 year old boys still need female, jsut love and kindness is all you need to offer him. he will suck it up. it is all any kids needs that i have seen. and they do like boundaries and rules. bug deals. especially at this age.....all ages

[Rabrrrrrr]

261. Yes, teenagers are! It's why I find it impossible not to be involved in

youth groups. :-)

Niece and nephew are pretty lovely - but sometimes I think they're too quiet. Their dad doesn't like noise, so I think they grew up in a house in which they weren't allowed to laugh real loud or make zooming helicopter noises or giggle at a high pitch or anything. Sometimes I feel sad for them, but they are good people.

Your half-brother and -sister sound like nightmares. Very sad.

[livinginphotographs]

294. I'm a young man.

Can you imagine the reaction I would get if I told an obviously unfit parent that their child was disturbing the other patrons?

They'd either laugh in my face, or tell me to fuck off and mind my own business.

Trust me, I'd have liked to do this more times than I can count, but I know it won't solve anything. And after working and being abused in retail for so many years, I'm hesitant to involve management, because I can assure you that they're just as annoyed, but can't do anything about it, because of the pedestal that those with children are put on.

No hostility towards you, per se, but some of the self-righteousness of those with children towards those of us who really don't prefer the company of children is kind of irritating. Much like screaming children. ;)

[China_cat]

312. What are the parents going to do? Throw a teething ring at you?

No, they go home and call a lawyer and sue the shit out of the restaurant and add you in as a co-defendent for daring to intimate that their spawn are less than holy icons.

Management does nothing in most cases. They're too damned scared of losing their license.

[kcr]

219. Some of the replies here are mind blowing

This is very, very simple:

If a restuarant does not have an age limit, then it is, by definition, A FAMILY RESTARAUNT! It is depressing that it seems that people need tp have that pointed out to them. I swear, the absolute hatred of chldren on this board seems to have rmeoved the abality to use simple logic from some people.

[ultraist]

223. Harsh, judgemental, & hateful of children: hell, fire and brimstone!

Those evil little beings should be seen and not heard! They should not be allowed out in public because they are still developing and haven't learned all of the social dictates of our society. DAMN them!

Fuck child development studies that have shown us what children are capable of at what ages. Fuck age appropriateness. Let's return to the dark ages and treat children as less than human. Praise the Lord! Spare the rod, spoil the child!

Are these posts DEMOCRATS? Talk about the punitive strict father model.

[shrike]

224. I don't see so much hatred as frustration

Then again, childless people and parents seem to lead such different lives, at least in my experience. I remember a saying that there are two kinds of people in the world: those who have children and those who don't.

Because I don't have children, I feel I am able to help out with my kids and step-grandkids in other ways, especially financial. I plan to send at least two of them to college.

[kcr]

228. But its frustration brought on by themselves

I hate country music. It is intolerbale to me. Hence, I do not go to country and wesrern bars. The childless people on this thread seem to be under the illusion that they should be able to walk into a country and western bar and demand that they play Modest Mouse -- and then get upset whan that doesn't happen.

[shrike]

231. I think the frustration goes well beyond that

Although maybe I don't want to go there ... there have been other threads about the frustrations of childless people, some of which I think are valid.

I don't have children because I know myself well enough to know that I would not be a good parent. But I do enjoy children -- though, like other people, childless or no, I occasionally get frustrated by encounters with a brat. I've heard quite a few parents complain about children who are not their own.

[seabeyond]

235. shrike beyond knowing yourself well enough to know you

dont have the patience, do you think because you didnt have the experience that maybe you may be to quick to judge. kids lose control for different reason at different ages. and they arent mature like an adult, knowing how to handle the overwhelming emotions. does it have to be that the child is being a brat, or has bad parents or maybe, the child didnt sleep well or got up too early, or maybe the child is over stimulate or a zillion of other reasons.

so as you suggest the parent may not be understanding the non parent adult, just maybe a lot of these people are not being very understanding with children., at that point, it isnt my problem anymore. it is the person that doesnt have the knowledge or understanding

and i have read your posts thru, i dont feel you are anti child at all, i hear what you are saying, and you are very kind. i assure you my children would be kind to you if you had interest in them, leave you alone if you didnt, and wouldnt interupt you meal at all

[shrike]

236. I don't think it's judging

I think it's a normal human reaction. I get frustrated by a lot of things, and occasionally, I get frustrated by a child.

I do think, however, that childless adults and parents come from such different directions sometimes that we can't relate to the others' lives, or what the other might be feeling.

BTW, I'm sure your children are nice people. Most kids are.

[ultraist]

243. Read the posts where kids are called horrible names

Check out the words they use to mean children. It's pretty revealing.

[kcr]

238. That may very well be

But this was a bad place for that other frustration to be expressed. In essence, some of the child-free people in this thread took an untenable position -- that family restaurants should not be family restaurants -- and then used defense of that position as an outlet for savaging other people. The level ofvitriol displayed in some of those posts was completely out of line considering the subject. It was not conductive to an honest conversation, and if it was motivated by other frustrations, then it wasn't appropriate to use this thread as a venue for those frustrations. Particulalrly consideirng that the worst offenders didn't make that distinction clear.

And, just to be clear, I am not saying all the people here did that, just some.

Oh, and I love your username. I am a big Dan Simmons fan :)

[JVS]

306. That analogy would hold if they were bitching about kids at Chuck E Cheese

but that's not the case

[Kipepeo]

221. I don't think it's a human rights violation to have an age requirement

There are age requirements for all sorts of things, including certain restaurant/bars.

I don't see the harm in some restaurants choosing to have an age requirement...it's not like there is a dearth of places to eat. And those that ARE kid-friendly and family-oriented in the first place, like Applebees, Outback, Shoneys, etc, are not going to change that because that's where they make their money. That's who they market to: families.

This sounds to me like a few high-end froofy places that don't really offer anything for kids in the first place, wanting to implement an age requirement for good measure. My initial feeling is: so let them. :shrug:

I browsed through this thread and people's emotions seem to be getting high over something that is not that big of a deal, right? Some people don't *like* most kids or they don't know how to interact wth them, and they don't mean it as an insult to your (in the general plural sense) kids personally, and other people are understandably offended by what can be taken as an insult them if not said with people's feelings in mind.

But back to the original topic, no I don't see the harm in it. I myself would like just one, *just one*, airline with an age requirement that I could have the option of booking even if it cost more money. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. :shrug:

[shrike]

226. Sounds okay to me

Although I have met some very sweet children on airplanes.

I always thought it must be terribly hard to travel with an infant.

[Kipepeo]

230. So have I

I have met some really great folks on airplanes, including kids, so I agree of course. :)

I guess the airline comment was more in reference to crying babies, when it's a red eye flight and I really *would* have paid more to be able to sleep.

But yes, I can't imagine traveling with an infant and having people give you shit for it. I have seen people be rude to parents who really can't control when a cry starts....but in my dream world those parents would be able to say "You should have splurged the extra $30 to go on the other airline then." ;)

[seabeyond]

227. oh the sympathy i have for you on the airline

the guilt i felt for the poor sucker that got stuck next to me on an airplane from mass. to tx. with a 8 month old. lordy felt guilty and apologized all the way. lol lol. yup. that time i was by myself and was such a long trip. he slept most of it, wwwoooosh. i totally empathize with you

so as a mama on an airplane, anytime another mother is having a challenging time i always help out in the entertainment of the baby/child to help all along the way on the trip. nothing worse than a fussy baby on an airplane. i agree

other trips though, (and we have taken a lot) kids were totally well behaved two parents, easy to entertain them. no problem for the passengers

[shrike]

233. Parents on airplanes do have my sympathies

How do you explain to an infant what's going on? Must be tough.

[ultraist]

239. The first time my daughter flew we had an emergency landing

She was about one so she was old enough to sense the fear that filled the cabin even though she didn't really understand what was happening. We had to remove our shoes and jewelry and tuck our heads between our legs. She was too scared to cry! She was in her car seat so I put a pillow over her right as we began the descent. It was awful.

The woman right behind us was FREAKING OUT, YELLING out prayers! This made it worse for everyone. UNREAL! Thankfully, the landing gear did come out but we slammed onto the landing pad.

But, I have to say, the worst experience I've had flying was having to sit next to an overweight drunk guy who was leering at me and attempting to flirt with me the entire flight. YUCK! Talk about intrusive. The guy was a total lech.

I guess as a mother who loves kids, I just don't view kids being kids as terribly intrusive.

[Kipepeo]

244. Lecherous Drunk Dudes On Planes

are one group I can definitely say I would pay money to avoid. :)

[Kipepeo]

240. Oh, don't feel sympathy for me

It doesn't bother me to that extent! If someone is a d*ck about a baby crying on their flight then they probably have something else bothering them that's causing that kind of reaction.

I have just thought about it before, as being a good idea, like an "I wonder why they don't have that?" kind of thought.

On a related-yet-not-directly-related note, there was the recent airplane controversy about some airlines charging passengers for the price of two seats if they were deemed somehow 'oversize' by people at the gate. The determination is completely subjective of course. And the airlines say it is because other passengers don't want to be inconvenienced by sitting next to someone who squeezes into their elbow room. I can agree with the not wanting to be inconvenienced part, but charging people for the price of 2 seats? Come on. On that issue I think the airlines should just provide a few bigger seats that are reserved for those passengers who would need them. People come in all sizes, and god knows they have the room to make big space in the front for first class, so why not have a row of bigger seats? The seats they offer as it is are teensy ridiculous.

Sorry to get off topic....

[ultraist]

242. They squeeze in as many seats as they can

It's unbelievably crowded on commercial flights. We are paying for HALF of seat with no leg room.

[noamnety]

250. Some of the posts here reminded me of one of my own

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1476936#1477014

It's funny comparing how Americans react to children to how people in different countries react to them.

Well, maybe funny isn't the right word.

[toddaa]

255. Spoiled Selfish Brats

Apparently, being a spoiled selfish brat isn't necessarily something you grow out of.

[LWolf]

257. I think it should be the restaurant's choice.

I think there should be places I can go "out" for a meal and conversation without kids.

I'm a mom, a grandmother, and an elementary school teacher. I spend plenty of "quality time" with kids. I take my grandson, who just turned 5, to "family" restaurants. Where he is expected to behave with good manners, or we leave the beautiful food on the table, along with the $$ to pay for it, and leave.

But when I'm done for the day, if I'm not with my grandson, I very often don't want to be surrounded by kids. I spent all day taking care of 32 of other people's kids, and trying to teach them something into the bargain. I don't need to hear them after work, too! I don't need to hear them crying, shouting, etc., or see them standing on their boosters and peering over the seat into my booth, or have them running around in circles. There are times when I'd like to meet someone for dinner, and have a conversation with an adult without the benefit of the noise and energy generated by the young.

I used to sit in the "bar" section of restaurants to achieve that, since kids aren't supposed to be allowed in that section. These days, that restriction seems to have been lifted. A few "adult" restaurants would be fine with me.

[Brewman_Jax]

262. Too many out past 10pm

Children are children, not miniature adults. In one of my favorite restaurants (which is now closed and gone) pre-schoolers were in and up to even past 11pm. The ages in question are 4-8, which don't need to be up so late. The parents wonder why the kids are whining and tired. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

268. i agree with you, walked into convenience store at 11

and saw a two year old, whining about wanting something, thinking why isnt that kid in bed. reading your post, you are right, why would a parent take a child to restaurant late and keep them up. then i thought, you know, when we have driven on trips, and left in afternoon, on the way to mountains, or grandparents, on an 8 hour drive our children have been up that late. we have walked them into a convenience store to get something. they were tired, and would be tired the next day. i would know this as a parent. and we would be patient and nice to each other cause we were tired and not over react. but this was a vacation. not an every day experience.

i could have an adult in the store looking at me thinking the same, why arent these kids in bed. bad parent bad parent.

we dont know what is going on, but feeding all thru our society, we are deciding without information who the bad people are, what they are doing wrong, without a clue

i think i am going to think twice next time i see a child out late in a restaurant, or the convenience store.

thank you for helping me to be a little more accepting, and a little less judging, especially when i dont have a clue

[Brewman_Jax]

271. Thank you for proving my point

This is a neighborhood restaurant. People and parties starting early and staying late, not the end of late night road trips. I have a clue, and I see that you don't. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

272. so what if it was grandma's 80th bday

and the child goes to bed at 8 every nite the rest of the year. still a bad parent.

nah, whatever i am just done with this

or what if the parent is totally irresponsible and the child stays up to 11 and sleeps to 11

again whatever

you want to sit in anger at these people,. the anger effects no one but you. the people you are angry at dont care or know

again, whatever

[SiouxJ]

270. I would certainly frequent such a place.

Sometimes I want to enjoy a meal out without smoke and also without children. Given the choice though, I'd take the smokers any day.

I was in a bar/restaurant on a Sunday afternoon, watching football and playing pool, when these women came in with their kids. The kids actually started grabbing the balls off the pool table while we were trying to play! The parents made little effort to control them so we got into it with them. I mean we almost came to blows! This was a freaking bar!! It's like you can't go anywhere anymore and just be with adults. Oh, I suppose I could go to a strip club but being a woman, that's not exactly my cup-o-tea.

I think if you are allowed to restrict minors from strip clubs and casinos (for the most part, though I've nearly been tripped by running kids in Vegas casinos on several occasions as well), you should be able to restrict them from restaurants too.

[Debbi801]

273. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like common sense to me...

We have 3 kids--12, 10, and 3. Places like Fuddruckers, Bob Evans, Denny's and other "family" restaurants get frequented regularly by us. Slightly more upscale restaurants like Bennegans, TGIF, Ruby Tuesdays, Olive Garden, etc. get frequented occasionally by us. But, only earlier than the usual dinner time and only if there is not a wait. Even then, I make sure that my older 2 have a book or something to keep them occupied, and my 3 yr old has a diaper bag full of books, coloring books and crayons, etc. to play with while we wait for the food. Then, there are the places that I'd take my older two and leave the 3 yr old at home. There are also places that We've taken the 12 yr old ("fancy" restaurants) while the 10 yr old was otherwise occupied and the 3 yr old at home with a sitter because I know he is the only one that could handle the required manners.

But, I also believe that there are some restaurants that kids (no matter what age) do not belong at. And, I think most of us know what they are--they require a reservation, men probably need to wear a suit or at least a jacket, meals are probably up-wards of 100.00 for 2 people, etc. I love my kids, and it is very rare that we get a sitter because of the cost involved and the availability of sitters. But, if we get a sitter for a special occasion and go to a very nice restaurant where it is required that we get dressed up, etc. I do not want to see kids running around, screaming, etc.

Just my opinion.
Debbi

[seabeyond]

275. have you ever been in a restaurant suit required

100 dollar meals where you have seen a kid running around screaming. i have a lifetime been member in country clubs other clubs and visited other peoples country clubs and expensive rest. and never have i seen a child up and about running all over screamin. you know i would put my foot down on that one too. just have never in a lifetime seen it.

[Debbi801]

276. Yes, unfortunately I have...

I know that some of them don't "allow" kids. But, one time I did have the misfortune of experiencing this. It wasn't pleasant, and we wound up cutting our dinner very short because of it.

[trogdor]

274. Um, those have been around forever.

They're called nightclubs. You wouldn't want to take the kids there anyway.

[JVS]

278. THERE IS ONLY ONE SOLUTION: TASERS!

I was going to post earlier and I regret that I didn't before this threadexploded to almost 300 replies. Tasers are the only solution to this problem. If customers were allowed to taser unruly children and/or their parents we'd see an improvement in behavior.

[seabeyond]

280. pavolov ? conditioning. only if we get to do to adult bad behavior

too

[seabeyond]

281. if a child laughs

is that bad behavior. some dont even want to see a little body in a restaurant even in good behavior it seems. so who decides the "bad" behavior

[gollygee]

297. You're exactly right

My daughter made happy giggling sounds and just normal conversation and a couple complained to us that they didn't want to eat with her around. At like Applebee's or something. People have unrealistic expectations when it comes to children - not only are children not allowed to behave like children, they have to actually behave better than adults to be acceptable.

[HEyHEY]

282. COrking idea wat!

[JVS]

283. BRILLIANT

[Rabrrrrrr]

291. AND BREAK THEIR TOYS!!

[livinginphotographs]

296. AND SNAP THEIR CRAYONS IN HALF!!!!

[JVS]

307. Well if the kids is making noise in a restaurant for no reason

at least breaking the toy would give the kid a reason for the noise ;-)

[noamnety]

298. The only time I ever had an expensive meal ruined

by other customers, it wasn't by children, it was by the (extremely loud and obnoxious) guy who planned Danny on the Partridge Family who was at the next table.

Therefore, I would like to have restaurants ban actors from bad 1970's tv shows.

[Rabrrrrrr]

299. Actaully, I would mind getting the government involved in that one

and have the US Government ban actors from bad 1970s TV shows. They should also bad bad singers.

Who was that famously bad singer who was on a lot of commericals in the 70s and 80s, selling albums by mail? He did kinda show tunish stuff, sort of like what some of the Vegas guys - Tom Jones and ilk - would do, except he was awful. Seemed he wore a gold suit in some of the photos of him that appeared in the commercial.

It wasn't Steamcar Willie. He became a meme.

[ultraist]

309. 68.1% of American Households contain children (USCB)

It seems that private businesses are serving the supply and demand of the market. Apparently, there are few "no children allowed" restaurants, because they is so little demand for them nationally.

Additionally, businesses cannot, by law, randomly discriminate against any one group of people. (Children, by law, are people and not subpersons). Bars are regulated and can disallow children due to liquor license laws, but other establishments cannot arbitrarily discriminate.

As a landlord, I cannot refuse to rent to parents with children. Only special "adult only" communities who have obtained special privilege licenses can do so.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/childrens_rights.html
children's rights: an overview
A child is a person and not a subperson over whom the parent has an absolute possessory interest. The term "child" does not necessarily mean minor but can include adult children as well as adult nondependent children. Children are generally afforded the basic rights embodied by the Constitution. The equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment is said to apply to children, born within a marriage or not, but excludes children not yet born. There are both state and federal sources of child-rights law.
###

This argument is moot unless someone can provide legal evidence that private establishments can randomly discriminate.

[October]

310. Shame they grow up to be asshole adults though

[Undercover Owl]

311. It's a free country.

(well, anyway, it's supposed to be a free country...lately I'm not so sure)

If a restaurant feels that there is a market for a no-children-allowed restaurant, then they would be smart to capitalize on that. The business has that right. Other restaurants will cater to families. Consumers can to choose in what kind of ambiance they want to dine.

[Serra]

313. Seems pretty basic to me...

As a teenager, I think that a certain amount of what has been called "child-hating" in this thread is just plain common sense. When anyone, including me, is dining at a fancy restaurant, they really don't need to see two or three year olds running around. Part of what one pays for in a restaurant is the ambiance and the experience of dining out, and there are few things that can ruin those parts better than a screaming child. Generally, I think that most children above the age of twelve are capable of handling themselves in fancy restaurants. I don't think that it is too much to ask for parents to keep younger or misbehaving children to more family oriented restaurants. If it requires a restaurant that doesn't allow people under 18, then so be it. Any parent is welcome to go without their kid/kids, or go by themselves.

[JVS]

315. kick!