What is it with some women who become mothers and cease to be anything

[yvr girl]

else? Can we please discuss something besides sippy cups and junior's teething. How about the world we're leaving for them?

Note on edit: It was not my intention to be offensive

[lukasahero]

1. This should be fun - popcorn anyone? eom

[Itascapark]

3. Yes, I'll bring the Jiffy

[AngryAmish]

9. Let me grab some cokes

[Lone_Star_Dem]

17. Yum, real butter, too.

[ChairOne]

22. oh boy. and i thought i was bad.... /eom

[slutticus]

149. Oh yeah..

[hippiechick]

2. Wow ...

I'm completely speechless at the crassness of the OP.

2 weeks in a row. Are you starting these flame wars on purpose ?

:puke:

[Riding this Donkey]

4. I think she just likes the attention

[SoCalDem]

5. bowl movements??

from one side of the tray to the other:)

[DBoon]

6. We don't have any kids....

Anyone want to talk about chew toys and our doggie's bowel movements?

[ProfessorGAC]

7. OK dboon! You & Me, We'll Talk

That ought to hijack this inflammatory thread.
The Professor

[DBoon]

11. Doggie bowel movement thread #1

Aren't tapeworms just gross?

[ProfessorGAC]

20. How About Liquipoop?

I hate when that happens.
The Professor

[bloom]

130. and then there's hairballs

why do I ever get longhaired cats?

You would think I would learn.

[DBoon]

37. Chew toy thread #1

Our guy just buries chew toys. Never digs them up. I find them a year later when I am planting flowers.

Anything too big to eat he buries. He once found a kaiser roll on a walk, seized it, went straight home and buried it. He looked real funny with this hug chunk of bread in his mouth.

[ProfessorGAC]

53. Not Ours

He loves stuffed animals. Doesn't tear them up, at all. Has two that are almost as old as he is. (He has 12. He's a nancyboy.) And, there will be NO BURYING things in my lawn.
The Professor

[hippiechick]

8. What a cute doggie !

:hi:

[12345]

10. There are plenty of people, men and women alike, who have little or no

life beyond their work. I know many people who work 50, 60, 80 hours a week and come home. They have little life outside of work. Why would being a mother be any different?

Somehow it seems as though people are much more willing to accept such a narrow focus coming from a lawyer, doctor, architect, etc. than from a mother. I argue that it is a job, too. One of my employees just returned from his leave of absence (he was staying at home taking care of his kids) only to say, "It's nice to have a vacation . Taking care of the kids, now that's hard."

Maybe your question should be, why do people care about the world we're leaving for our children? Scrap the crap about mothers.

[yvr girl]

36. I think any narrow focus person would try their friends' nerves

It's just not my experience. Most of my friends are quite diverse in their interests.

[12345]

46. You must know someone.

Otherwise, you wouldn't have started this thread.

[yvr girl]

57. Besides the above example, no

I have friends who do all sorts of jobs: helicopter mechanic, accountants, teachers, mill workers, Senior VP's, sales, hair stylists, engineers, IT etc.

Some have very high-powered jobs, some don't. We converse on many topics.

[ultraist]

52. Your friends must be young

Anyone who has been very successful has developed a narrow focus or as it's typically called, an expertise. It's fun to be a generalist, but if you want to become well versed in one area, it requires focus and intensity.

[bettyellen]

156. but if you are smart, you realize you bore the crap out of everyone.......

and severely limit your social options with your narrow focus.

[ultraist]

220. Actually, my friends find my discussion about my business fascinating

And often ask me for advice on investing in Real Estate. Of course, we discuss other things as well, but thanks for the tips! :)

[Proud2BAmurkin]

119. The work of most professions is more interesting than teething

so maybe more people would like to hear about it

[Shopaholic]

153. That would be me.

:hi: I don't have kids, I'm not married and I'm obsessed with news, politics, and my job. So as a result, these are pretty much my only topics of conversation. I'm sure that my married with kids friends find me as boring as I sometimes find them when we're both equally stuck on only certain topics of conversations. It doesn't make any of us bad people, just possibly obsessive ones.

[Logansquare]

12. Oh geez, wait until you buy a house, or try planning a wedding,

or start a small business--you will be instantly rendered into a person who talks of nothing else. It's the way of the world. I bet you're in your 20s, unmarried, and without property--oh, the luxury of those times!

[bettyellen]

103. Ewww, women planning weddings are the worst!! They are even more boring

than the poopie talkers becasue you actually have to listen in case they try to rope you into doing stuff, wearing stuff, planning stuff!
i had only one friend that did this, and because me and her mom were both hard headed and wanted what we wanted, i had to give two showers-- both suprises-- the same day.
no one can tell me i'm not a good friend.
but i appreciate those of us who just shack up already.

[shrike]

170. I have my own business, of sorts

And I NEVER talk about it if I can help it. BORING! It's good etiquette not to bore the other person in the conversation, no matter what the topic may be. Too much of anything is not good.

[Logansquare]

195. So true. Here in the city, a common bore is the real estate bore

I was trapped at a dinner party next to some maniac who was incapable of talking about anything other than buying and selling property. Sheesh!

[Stirk]

13. Where is junior moving the bowls?

I admit it sounds dreadfully boring- but I am curious.

[Warpy]

14. Gee whiz, honey

producing and training the next generation of human beings is the real work of the human race, so of course people who are engaged in it find it utterly absorbing.

No, their brains didn't come out with the baby. Yes, they still have other interests, but those interests are pallid to the level of total inconsequence with the problems of parenthood in a hostile country.

I never had kids, so I do understand what you're going through. You feel as though you've lost friends because you have no way of sharing their consuming interest.

Don't worry. They'll be back by the time the kids start school.

[yvr girl]

21. I think being a mother, a parent is a tremendously important job

I don't think it should be taken lightly. Don't do it unless you plan on doing it right. But I find that a lot of women just seem to lose themselves in the process. Their world becomes small.

I have one friend, who I admire greatly, who is proof that it doesn't have to be that way. She has three boys under 8. Her husband travels a lot for work, he's gone 3 weeks out of 4 at least. I fully understand why Cheryl is exhausted - I'm exhausted after a visit, but she still manages to have a life beyond her children.

And she is an amazing mom too, she works hard to create memories for her kids. We had a great discussion at 2 am in her yard while she was making a skating rink!

[Karenina]

32. WOW! You know

SUPERMOM!!! Dada-dada-dada-dada... yadda-yadda-yadda. You can "plan" all you want on "doing it right." Life is what happens while you're making plans. Take a picture of your friend who has 3 boys (the MOST unstable combination imho) under 8 TODAY! Quick! Times a-wasting!!! Take another 3 years from now. Then get back to us moms.

[yvr girl]

42. My point isn't that women need to be SUPERMOM

Perfection ain't in the cards either, not unless you know of some perfect people - I don't.

By doing it right, I mean being a good parent. After I graduated from high school, my parents took in foster children. Some of their stories would break your heart. We had one boy living with us who was in foster care because his mom held him over a fire to dry him off. He was scarred for life and not just physically. That's an extreme example, I know, but I've seen some horrendous parenting.

If you chose to become a parent, that involves a lot of other choices. You need to provide the basics, food, shelter and love and a whole lot more. There are plenty of people out there who have no business being parents and that crosses all economic boundaries.

[One_of_8]

44. Hmmm, could it be because it is so demanding/fascinating?

But I find that a lot of women just seem to lose themselves in the process. Their world becomes small.

I'm one of those women of whom you might say "lost" myself in the process. When I had my son, I discovered that my life had changed utterly and completely. Suddenly, I needed to figure out how to care for this helpless little being, 24/7. You bet I got a little lost in the process of learning how to care for and nurture him.

But my world didn't become small, although my focus did narrow. What I found instead was that my life pre-motherhood seemed pale in comparison. I really was living moment to moment, the scent of my newborn's neck, his tiny feet, the sworls on his scalp foretelling of numerous cowlicks once his hair began growing in. Those moments are still vivid in my memory today, and my son is now 7 years old.

I understand it's not very interesting to someone who either doesn't have children, or whose children are grown. But I willingly let most of my former outside interests go by the wayside, albeit temporarily, to indulge in my fascination for this new person in my life. I have no regrets, and would do it the same in a heartbeat.

[DemExpat]

56. Fascinating and incredibly sensuous....the little ones.....

I also savored these moments in these years like nothing else I have experienced in my life.

There is plenty of time when the kids get older to open up to all the rest if one wants to again!

Being a Mom taught me to be "lazy", to put my agenda on the back burner for a while - just hanging out and being there for them, thinking up things to do with them to enrich their days...

it was lovely.

DemEx

[Igel]

59. I admire her greatly. One kid's doing me in. n/t

[Hardrada]

112. They'll be back, maybe,

When the children graduate from high school. But by then you might have moved along elsewhere.

[bread_and_roses]

167. oh, HURRAY! for that response! Thank you!

And particularly impressive coming from a non-parent/child-free person! Loving and caring for infants and small children is so demanding that it as natural for parents to be utterly absorbed in it as it is natural for an artist to think of nothing but his/her work while creating.

And it is indeed the work of the human race - work all too undervalued. Not to mention that the structure of family we have chosen in this society is so debilitating in its' isolation that to expect those engaged in the demanding work of caring for the young to also be productive or even much interested in other arenas is unreasonable. It is very challenging just to keep up with what the children need.

I speak as someone who went back to a job when my infant was 6 weeks old - and this back in the early '80's when it was less common than today - and have never regretted it as a choice. But there is no doubt in my mind that in a sane world isolated mostly mothers in a nuclear family would not be expected to both be primary nurturers of the next generation AND work/sustain community involvement/be sex symbols/etc etc etc. If you are going to be all those things, you need a little more help in the child rearing - preferably (to my mind) communal not nuclear arrangements. And at the very least one needs more societal support than this society provides in terms of jobs, day care, health care, transportation. Just coping with the logistics of having children to care for can take all one's energy and resouces - leaving nothing much for public affairs.

[LeftyMom]

15. Yeah, it's not like parenting is important or life changing or anything.

:eyes:

Besides, children are boring, let's discuss something interesting, like American Idol.

[yvr girl]

23. Parenting is important

I don't watch American Idol, so I'll have to pass.

[ultraist]

16. And cease to be anything? wow...

Being a mother is not being "nothing." Why such disrespect for motherhood, one of the most important and noble jobs one can do in life?

I find that comment really offensive and underpinned with misogyny. Mothers, despite the patriarchal sexist paradigm, are not inferior.

I was a stay at home mother when my children were small, although I also did a lot of volunteer work during that time, and I would not change it for the world.

I went back to work when my youngest started kindergarten and there have been times I regretted working, rather than spending that time with my children. Missing out on school events, not having as much patience with homework because I had work items to complete, pawning them off on the tv to make a deadline. It's not easy balancing work and children and sacrificing your child's good will to make money is not honorable.

Now that we have our own business, we have been able to integrate family life and work much more smoothly. Much of the reason we chose to have our own business was so we could have an alternative lifestyle that allowed our children to be part of our lives, rather than a compartmentalized from our lives. We now have the flexibility to put our children's needs first and not have some boss dictate what is important in our family. Not all parents have this opportunity.

I will never look back and say, damn, I should have worked more and spent less time with my children while they were growing up.

But, I suppose for people who are not parents, it's difficult to understand that the most important aspect in most parents lives, are their children. It's also difficult for some to step outside of themselves and think about how fast 18 years fly by and how you can never go back.

If we can teach our children to be socially responsible, loving adults, then we have done much for the world. If we don't teach them, who will?

I have a lot of respect for parents (male or female) who choose to spend quality time with their children, rather than work long hours to earn a few extra bucks.

[Scout]

45. motherhood, one of the most important and noble jobs one can do in life

If motherhood was really such a great job, men would have it.

(putting on asbestos suit now)

[ultraist]

55. I referred to motherhood because the OP attacked motherhood

Being a mother or a father is one of the most important and noble jobs.

I think I alluded to parenthood in my post, but it was motherhood that was under attack here.

[yvr girl]

64. I did not attack motherhood

[ultraist]

71. really? "some women who become mothers and cease to be anything"

"Mothers cease to be anything"...hmmm...let's break this down. Since they cease to be anything, then being a mother means to "be nothing. " See the attack now?

Read the posts again from parents. ;)

[yvr girl]

72. Subject line was not long enough

if you read the message you would have seen the whole sentance, "cease to be anything else" Else is a key word.

I'm not a mother, and maybe I'm being unrealistic, but I don't want to stop being what I am when I have children. I want to add a role, not subtract a bunch.

Do I expect my time to be spent differently, you betcha.

See the lack of attack now?

[ultraist]

89. That's not what you said in your OP

"cease to be anything else." So, being JUST a mother is not good enough for you. BUT, you don't have children. Okey dokey.

If you are attempting to expand on that, fine.

You WILL have to subtract some things from your life unless you have a full time nanny, until your kids are older. Raising children is extremely time consuming.

Women who have children earn on average, 1Million dollars less in their lifetimes because they have less time to devote to their career.

Each woman finds her own balance. For me, it's being able to have a 3/4 time career and spend time with my kids (now that my kids are in school). For other mothers, it's staying at home full time with no career outside of the home.

There is no one right or wrong way.

[yvr girl]

94. I don't get it

I made a plea to broaden the discussion topics. That was my original post.

I accept that my friends have less time to visit with me. Maybe I see them 2 hours a month. I play with their kids and listen to their stories and admire their pictures.

Is it too much to ask for 10 minutes of discussion that doesn't focus on junior. How about our upcoming provincial election. How about current events. How about a worldview. Heck, I'd even settle for the weather.

I don't buy the fact that you have to lose all outside interests when you have kids. You might have to limit your participation, but they don't take away your brain when they hand you a baby. (Good thing too, because kids would definitely take advantage of that.)

[bettyellen]

107. "some mothers" not motherhood. some moms are boring.... and this is

true, i have heard a lot of husbands say they are shut out, and bored. and they work long hours. but that's some dads, and some mothers.
that's all it is. jeeze.

[Lorien]

202. Anything ELSE

is what she wrote. "In addition to" is what she meant, no doubt. The best parents I've ever known involved their children in all kinds of activities because the parents had multiple interests themselves. The children-now college students-have 4.5 GPAs and dozens of good friends. They are interesting young adults because of their interesting parents.

[gollygee]

18. Cease to be anything else?

What? Stop being women? What are you talking about?

Moms are concerned about our kids. If we stop being concerened, we'll raise "brats" and have a bunch of posts about how moms don't pay enough attention to their children and need to act like parents.

[senseandsensibility]

19. Generally

I don't respond to this type of post because it is difficult to respond to something so poorly communicated in the first place. Are you talking about all mothers? Then obviously, you are mistaken and or purposely smearing a whole group of people. Are you talking about a particular group of mothere you know? How are we supposed to know?

The vast majority of mothers I know are so exhausted from working full time and raising their children that I give them a total pass on being au courant with politics, fashion, or anything else. Some don't need a pass; they know more than me about everything.

Yes, I do know one mother who has no interests or life outside her children. She's a conservative fundie who defers to her husband about everything, and isn't allowed by him to have any opinions of her own. She would probably be this way even if she wasn't a mother.

[yvr girl]

26. My initial post had a bit too much of a rant in it

I'll give you that.

Most of my friends who are mothers are lucky enough to have the choice to stay home. They've chosen that option. It seems to me that their whole world has become their children. I'm afraid that they'll wake up one day, when their kids are older and find themselves at a loss.

[Ilsa]

51. I doubt it. I bet they'll be finding other interests

as their children enter different developmental stages. Young children and their mothers are naturally tied a little closer to one another for awhile because they do need one another. There is more that ties a mother to her child than just an umbilical cord, and there is much that child needs to learn from the mom, such as trust and love.

Yes, it does seem as if the world revolves around my children. I didn't take as much of an interest in politics until I had one. Now their futures and well-being is critical to me.

[ultraist]

58. Too bad, so sad, their kids come before you do...

What horrible people they are, to put their kids first.

Since you seem to lack insight into this issue, I'll fill you in. As children become older and have more lives of their own, most parents use that time, they once did not have, to pursue their own interests as well.

Do you have any clue as to how time consuming small children are? Haven't you heard the jokes about parents not even having time for sex?

[Skittles]

68. you do not get what she is saying, not at ALL

she is talking about obsessions, not priorities. Perhaps her mistake was over-generalizing but I know what she means.

[ultraist]

74. Her point was: "some mothers cease to be ANYTHING."

The very few mothers I know that focus on their children, more than most parents, have not 'ceased to be anything." They are MOTHERS, that's an honorable something to be even if they aren't PERFECT mothers.

[yvr girl]

78. That was not my point. Anything ELSE.

Just because someone becomes a mother doesn't mean they should stop being a woman, a spouse, a child, a friend, a dweller on the planet.

I would think that the state of the world would become more important, not less.

Does their daily schedule change? Yes. Being a mother is a huge job, I get that.

[ultraist]

90. For some people, being a mother is enough, who are you to judge?

Live and let live. If that's not how you think you'd do it, IF you had kids, fine. It's easy to sit in judgment when you are not in that position, isn't it?

Obviously, you have little value for motherhood nor do you understand the implications of what it means to be a mother.

Again, there is NO ONE RIGHT OR WRONG WAY. You are free to make your own choices, let them make their's.

BTW, raising children in a loving environment to be caring, socially responsible citizens, is considering the state of the world.

[bettyellen]

163. great, just don't kid yourself that it's facinating to anyone else.

[ultraist]

168. Really? I know a lot of parents who find parenting fascinating

[Lorien]

201. It seems like the ones on this board pointing a finger and calling

her "judgemental" are doing exactly what she is being accused of. Just because someone longs for a conversation about something other than diaper rash and sippy cups DOES NOT mean that they have disdain for motherhood. That's a huge leap. There's even greater disdain against women in this country who choose NOT to add more children to the more than six billion miracles that are already inhabiting the planet, and even disdain for those who simply can't have children. For those who are lucky enough to have a child to love and nurture, good for you! But don't be upset with the rest of us who simply can't relate because we either can't have them or don't wish to add another life to a planet that is already overburdened.

[Skittles]

81. she did make a mistake generalizing

but I know plenty of moms like she talks about - it's hard to have a normal conversation with them.

[yvr girl]

80. Thank you. I did over-generalize. And I will be more cautious

about what is left out of subject lines in the future, but you get what I meant.

[seabeyond]

86. skittles so what. so wHAt. so what if some moms

a few moms want to be obsessed with her kids and she has no other life but her children. isnt it her choice. why, oh WHY is anyone deciding this person needs to be otherwise

havent we had it with the world, all the little cliches in this world telling the others how they are suppose to be,.

so what if there are some women that get lost in their kids, and in another perception, another persons view, that person has no life
what business is it of anyONE

[ultraist]

92. exactly, what's up with the harsh judgemental attitude from a non parent?

"cease to be anything else." That says it all. It's just not good enough in some eyes to "just be a mother."

Personally, I've never met a mom that had NO OTHER interests aside from her children, but apparently this person has.

[BigMcLargehuge]

234. DING DING DING!!!!

best response yet. It's all about the time it takes to take care of a little one, it's easy at first as all they do is eat, sleep, and poop. But after the first six weeks or so, when they are up for hours at a time, it gets harder though they are still mostly passive. Once they start crawling though it's all attention all day, everyday, until they go to school.

Mom McLargehuge (AKA Mrs. McLargehuge) is still well informed about current events as we are avid radio listeners (NPR mostly) and read the newspaper. However, her primary concern and primary interactions throughout the day are with little children. They are her focus.

Is she any LESS of a woman? Nope.

[seabeyond]

24. lets define people in as small of a box as possible

you might want to check the 100's, possibly 1000's of posts i made. only a small percentage on children. and never about sippy cups, mostly about the world we are creating for them. then again, a portion of those posts on children, are going to be on the intolerance of children so many on this board have for them

[yvr girl]

28. The very fact that you are posting on this board proves that you

have an interest in the world around you. More than an interest, a desire to contribute to the discourse.

[seabeyond]

34. i find most all women i interact with has interest outside of children

when the kids start growing. if you are talking all the way to the sippy cup stage, newborn to four/five then the fact is it literally is a 24/7 job. that is about all the world is filled with. and personally i see that the way it should be. to bring a child into world and give up the first four years, for a lifetime of foundation and stability for the child is not too much to ask of a parent. but when a child is 2, about all they see is themselves, their needs wants and desire they are the only one in their world. behavioral appropriateness. hopefully during that time putting all the effort and nurturing in the child they will be able to move beyond that about 4.

so i really dont see the point of this thread, except you arent a parent yet and dont yet realize the all comsuming nature of a little child

[Beer Snob-50]

25. I think what was meant by this post was to discuss women

who, once they have children, that is all they discuss. At parties, at work, at the restaurant. Yes, it is a very big part and very important part of our lives, but we must also try to keep in touch with the rest of what we were sometimes. and that would include staying political active.

[yvr girl]

27. That's exactly what I meant

You said it much better than I.

[12345]

35. It didn't sound like it, but

give them a chance. They probably need time to breath before they can be politically active. Most people I know get back into the swing of things after things settle down. Granted, that may take a few years..

[yvr girl]

38. Note to self. Don't post when you're frustrated.

Take a breath first.

[seabeyond]

39. did you get a little too much of sippy cup talk, lol lol today n/t

[Skittles]

67. I get what you mean

pay no attention to people who claim we are "attacking" them for "putting their children first". Sheesh.

[SmokingJacket]

29. It's temporary.

That monomanical obsession with parenting that some people go through, I mean. My youngest just started school, my friends' kids are about the same age, and now when we get together, we talk about getting our lives back, restarting our careers, AS WELL AS what our children are doing. No more long annoying conversations about immunizations and breastfeeding, phew.

Have you ever talked to old people? It's arthritis, arthritis, arthritis!

Men in their 20s? Sports, sports, sports! People in their 40? Real estate, 24-7!! ;-)

Take the long view...

[yvr girl]

31. You make a good point

My friends all have young children.

[Phentex]

224. This is it exactly....

focus is focus. I think it's a temporary thing as well.

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. Yeah, what's up with that?

It really does go downhill with the female friendships once kids come into the picture. Unless your single girl friend ends up loving your kids as much as you do chances are, you'll drift apart; unless you're lucky to find another non-competitive mother, chances are, you'll eventually fight, and drift apart; unless you're in the same social bracket chances are, you'll drift apart (I actually heard a mom say she drifted away from an old friend because the old friend didn't have enough money to keep up with the social itinerary.) And then, there's the ridiculous, American style socializing, which isn't socializing at all. You get invited to a tupperware party, or Longerberger party, or Gourmet kitchen or partylites or Creative something or other, and you have to pull out an already thin checkbook out and be supportive, but you never hear from the bitch again until the next party.

Women friends. Who really needs them?

[NashVegas]

113. *Some* Truth to That

While it became harder to retain my closeness to my female friends as they married and had kids, it became easier to become friends with women who were already married and had families when I met them.

Making friends with people who already have a family, you have to accept that family as part of the package up front. With friends from singlehood, there's a huge adjustment to be made once they have a family. Hence the saying, "you leave your best friend at the altar."

[Binka]

33. What A Load Of Pants

If the women you know can't talk about anything but their children I would guess they are in their twenties. It is a conflicting age and a difficult age to be a parent. They might be clinging to the lives of their children to compensate for the loss they feel about their own lives.

But to shove all mothers into this paradigm that consists of sippy cups and teething is absurd.

I am a mother of four children ages 23, 21, 18, and 3. I never was a sippy cup talker because I am a critical thinker and always had more to talk about but please dear sister do not paint us with such a broad and negative brush.

What if these women just want to talk about what is important to them? If it is sippy cups and teething so be it. It is where they are.

Do you mind if I ask do you have any children?

[yvr girl]

47. I don't even have plants

My friends are in their 30's. They all had careers prior to having children. They're all staying home with their kids.

Women I work with are different. Granted, most of our interaction is naturally work related. But still, other topics come up.

I do have friends who have children who are not all consumed by their kids, just not enough of them.

I also try and be considerate of the demands they have on their time. It's easier for me to go to their place, because I can just get in the car and go. I don't need to coordinate my schedule with anyone. I've spent time visiting my friends while they ran errands, did laundry or held birthday parties. Sometimes we even manage to squeeze in a trip to Starbucks.

I don't have children, and frankly it looks like the scariest, most demanding job one could ever take on. I do miss my friends though.

[seabeyond]

228. i love this post yvr

i have a friend 7 hours away in denver. she comes down here to visit much more than i. i did make a trip once, two kids, out of their elements, and just easier for her to make the trip, all around. though we are going up this summer. if it was dependent on me getting babies ready for out of the house excursion, probably wouldnt happen

you really are so balanced in what you are talking. your op didnt show this. sorry for all the unnecessary grief. sometimes our posts should be just a tad larger, and expressive for better reception and understanding

moms, wives are dumped on all the time, by every fragment of society. it is just a knee jerk reaction to defend. the single more exciting. sittin at home eating bon bons. the cause of all evil

but though scary........(for me at first), not that scary, especially with support of a good man. and the best. one of the first doctors told me, dont listen to everyone else, you know your baby best. tis true. if you ever chose to have babies, you like most all of us, will be just fine

[dddem]

258. I'd like to offer my view, if I may

I have 2 daughters, age 14 and 10. When my oldest was born I was 31. I had a good job, lots of friends, a house and a pretty fulfilling life. When my daughter was born, I distinctly remember an overwhelming feeling of AHA (you know, when you finally figure out something that seemed so complex, but turned out to be so simple). I thought, "so this is why I'm here".
In addition to this instant enlightenment, there was the experience that first time mothers go through - every milestone in your child's life is also a milestone in your life. Every "first" that your child experiences, is also a first for you as a mother. Every success your child earns, you have a stake in. When they take that first step, it's a big step for you too. You are responsible for this life taking shape. It's a big deal.
Please understand that I speak only for myself. I certainly don't think every mother goes through exactly what I went through, but I'm guessing a lot of us do at least to an extent. I'm only trying to answer your post, which I'm guessing comes a little from frustration, and maybe a fear of losing commonality with your friends. I went through that in the opposite way; my friends all had their kids way before me, and were sick of the crying infants, and boisterous toddlers by the time I had mine. They were all going back to work by the time I had time to spend with them. We all formed separate relationships that fit with our lifestyles, but we remained close in our hearts, and have since caught up.
All I can say is that your friends are acting as they should, and there's nothing wrong with how you feel about it. It's a new chapter is all.
Hope I've helped.

[hippiechick]

50. Of course she doesn't have children ...

Didn't you see her thread last week where she was revelling in being a young female who gets 'favors' from men simply because she's a she ??

Obviously young and uhh ... well, I'll stop there. :puke:

[yvr girl]

70. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (like I did last time) that you did

not see any of my numerous clarifications.

First, I made no claim to be young, you're making assumptions. If you're curious, I'm 38. I was not 'reveling' and if you'd read my other posts in the thread, you'd know that. As for the 'favors' comment, I won't even dignify that with a response.

I was venting in my original post. I've edited it to make it a little less sweeping. It was not my intention to attack motherhood. If I offended you, I sincerely apologies.

Let me be clear about my beliefs on the subject:

1. Choosing to become a parent, in particular a mother, is the most important role anyone can take on.

2. From what I can see, it is the toughest job in the world. If it was a job that people did for money, you'd have to pay them a fortune to take on the job description. You might not find any takers.

3. If you chose to become a parent, you chose to have awesome responsibilities. There will be demands upon your time, energy, finances and your own personal wants and desires.

4. It changes all your relationships, your spouse, parents, friends etc. You have new priorities and restrictions.

5. Babies are pretty all consuming and demanding. I don't expect anything from a new mother. If they have time for a five minute chat, or an email I'm overjoyed.


I certainly did not mean to attack motherhood or mothers. Who am I to judge. I don't have children and more importantly I think they do a noble thing. It amazes me the sacrifices that people make for their children. It is the picture of love.

But am I not allowed to question or comment? I know woman who have children, who are great mothers who stay plugged into the world around them. Do they have a lot of time to give? No. Do they stay current and form opinions? Yes.

Then I know some people who just seem to lose their identity, and I'm not talking about new mothers. Their worlds also seem to become small. I have a niece and I care about the world she's going to inherit. Damn straight my sister-in-law cares about the world my niece is going to inherit.

Am I partially being selfish. Yes. I miss my friends and I feel the disconnect. Perhaps the children were just the catalyst for the disconnect - maybe it was inevitable.

I just know that I do have some very dear friends who are mothers where that disconnect has not occurred. Do I see them as much as I did before. No. Has the time we spend together changed. Yes. I accept those changes. I love their kids.

[Bettie]

129. Being a SAHM is very isolating, sometimes you do lose a bit of "self"

When I talk to other moms, I talk about kids. It is the part of our lives that we have in common, so that's what we talk about.

When I see my best friend who has no children, I tell her about my kids, she tells me about her work and then we move on to bashing W, general bitching about republicans and neo-cons, and then its on to historical reenactments and/or gaming.

When I spend time with a group of my single friends, we talk about my kids, their jobs, and a lot of other topics.

The fact is, if I see someone during the day, while I am embroiled in my daily tasks of childcare and putting out domestic fires, it really is all that is on my mind. When I want to take off my mommy cap, I go away from my children and spend time with adults, because it is really hard to concentrate on "adult" topics while fishing sippy cups out of the dog's water, keeping one from hitting/picking on/looking at the other, making sure that the kitty is not being cornered by the two year old and a million other things at the same time.

Being a mom is important, it is rewarding, but is is also exhausting and really difficult to disengage from in the middle of the day.

Staying at home is also isolating. I live in a neighborhood in a small Iowa town where I am the only mom at home on a daily basis. I need to travel half an hour to even interact with other moms.

Cut your friends some slack, they'll find themselves again when their kids don't need so much time and attention. Or, try to arrange time to get together with them when they don't have to haul the kids along because their attention and their conversation will be on the kids.

I don't think you were bashing moms, but I also don't think you quite get how hard it is to disengage from mommy brain sometimes!

A few days ago, I found myself cutting up my husband's food into bite size pieces so he wouldn't choke! :-)

[seabeyond]

162. cutting up my husband's food

oh that is so funny. been there done that.

[youthere]

194. Cutting up hubbies food.LOL

I do that too!

[American Tragedy]

260. LOL

When I have dinner with my mom, who is a fantastic cook, she does the same damn thing. It's bizarrely cute. I'll catch her carefully cutting my portion of chicken into little pieces. "Uh, Mom, you know I'm 21, right?"

[bettyellen]

79. boy you misread that thread last week.......

along with every other woman who needs to be suspicous of every man's motives. I feel sorry for the bunch of you.

[bunny planet]

200. Bingo Binka, the best response I've seen in this thread yet to the

original post. Exactly my sentiments, even when my kids were small I couldn't stand talking about sippy cups, and the various colors and consistencies of their poop. For some it's great conversation, to each his own. Mothering styles are as varied as the mother's themselves, and no, unless you have one and have experienced it up close and personal, you can not predict how you will behave when your world is rocked by an infant in your midst. Sorry, you just can't.

[newportdadde]

40. My wife stays at home with our 1 year old and she is my personal hero.

Does she talk about our son a lot? Yes, same way I talk about work a lot. Its human nature to want to share with others what your doing throughout your day.

We talk politics etc, articles I read on this site, watch some KO and our local political shows occassionally, we are really together on our politics and pumped each other up to go vote, her first and only my second as I didn't vote in 2000(damn).

Also... you obviously don't appreciate the value of a sippy cup.

[ultraist]

60. That's sweet and reminds me of my husband...

Enjoy while it lasts! Before you know it, you will be taking your child to kindergarten, then middle school, then to get their drivers license...*gasp*

[yvr girl]

75. I don't mind talking about their kids, just not to the exclusion of

everything else.

I'm glad you appreciate your wife - you should.

You might be right about the sippy cup. I have hardwood floors, so I'm not so worried about spills.

[ultraist]

95. You're not worried about your furniture or your clothes?

LMAO! Even our best leather furniture got trashed from toddler drinks. Have fun teaching your FUTURE possible kids that food and drinks stay in the kitchen. You are in for a BIG eye opener.

[yvr girl]

136. I was trying for a bit of levity

I guess you didn't laugh.

[China_cat]

41. Sorry, honey,

if you don't adore their kids the way they do...fall down and worship them, admit they can do no wrong, love their baby shit finger painting on the restaurant walls...then you HATE kids and would like to see them all dead.

[earth mom]

43. All good moms put their kids first

Simple as that. It is a sacrifice to have kids but the love we moms are given in return makes it all worth it. Being a mom is amazing, but it ain't easy and more often than not, all consuming. But that doesn't mean that we moms still don't have our own lives or interests, it's just that those things take a back seat to our children, which by necessity, must be number one.

I found that once I became a mom, most of my friendships with women who were childless (there were several) changed and sort of faded; some even completely and totally gone forever. It's a dividing line to be sure. Sure, I was resentful and hurt at first by the disinterest and obvious boredom these so called friends displayed regarding my new life; but it was a no brainer for me. My child or the so called friend? Not a difficult choice at all.

[ultraist]

48. I found that to be true as well

I have also found that some people who don't have kids are extremely self absorbed and shallow. They have never experienced putting themselves second to someone else's needs.

[Skittles]

49. I absolutely agree

I also get tired of looking at a stack of 50 pictures of a baby with the same expression

[ultraist]

61. Then why do you do it?

Why do you find it repulsive that a parent adores their child? It's it a bad thing to put your children first?

[Skittles]

66. lol - did I say that?

maybe 3 or 4 pictures would be enough? I'm not talking about good friends - just people I work with and barely know. Enough already.

[ultraist]

96. Hmmm.. I've never had a stranger show me 50 photos of their kids

Does that happen to you frequently? :eyes:

[applegrove]

54. Freeper!! Bait & get your freeper friends to see that Democrats are

AGAINST MOTHERHOOD! They believe anything else!!

[Igel]

62. My wife works full time, plus some. She wants tenure.

I want my dissertation done. We have a 13-month-old kid (who is currently pulling the hair off my arm trying to climb into my lap ... there, that's better). He takes naps, but still it's hard to get the diss. research done.

When I was a full-time grad student, I talked about my research, eventive deverbal nouns, fine-grained structure of IP, and aspectual nodes. When research slumped and I added playing classical guitar to the mix for sanity, barres, Sor, Sarenko, and artificial harmonics were what I talked about. I started to make a couple of guitars, because I couldn't afford a good one, so bracing patterns, French polishing, and the comparative virtues of Honduran mahogany vs. pau ferro vs. cocobolo bored my wife to tears (not to mention redwood vs. cedar vs. Englemann spruce vs. Carpathian spruce).

Now I'm a full time "Mr. Mom", and I talk about sippy cups. Or, as the case actually is, straw cups. (When I can, I still play guitar ... and work on research ... in that order.)

He recently got a new tooth, his seventh. And did I mention the perils of spoon-training?

And I don't know if you have kids, but kid and others' will undoubtedly being paying into social security after you've retired and providing all the services you and I won't be able to do.

[jdj]

63. I think it's the same thing with men who become soldiers and

cease to be anything else.

[agitpropagent9]

65. evil procreators!

give me "sippy cups and junior's teething" talk any time over these brain-dead "free spirited" women who can't wait to dump their kids off with the closest warm body so they can go out to da club.

i admire every woman who takes seriously her role as a mother, and takes the time to love and raise her kids in a nurturing environment.

[Blue_In_AK]

69. Being a mom is "hard work"...

...Now when I watch my two grandkids for a couple of hours, I think "How the hell did I do this through three kids?" Some things about getting old are really cool. Being able to give the little ones back to their mother is priceless.

"Grumpy Old Grandma"

[Geek_Girl]

73. I'm a mother of a two year old

and I also have a career as well as hobbies and interests. But having a child and being a mother is the most rewarding, wondrous thing in my entire life. Until you experience motherhood or fatherhood first hand, you won't be able to understand why mothers and fathers talk endlessly about the wonderful experiences of parenthood.

[yvr girl]

99. I don't doubt it, but you said it yourself

you have a career as well as hobbies and interests.

I see my friends who have children and sometimes I'm grateful I don't have them and sometimes I'm wistful.

To maintain a career or not, hopefully that's a choice a woman can make, and she can do what she wants. I can see hobbies taking a hit, especially when the kids are really young. I don't get why anyone would lose all other interests.

[Vinca]

76. Maybe that's why we seem to be going to hell in a hand basket . . .

or whatever that expression is. Maybe too much is expected of women. Back in the dark ages of the 1950's, my mother was "just a mom" who was always there when I came home from school, always baked stuff that filled the house with great smells and always made me feel safe. Times have changed, one income families are rare and we shouldn't rag on women, whatever their choices. The fact is, they are - for the most part - the ones rearing the next generation and they need help, not ridicule.

[ultraist]

85. Thank you!

We are criticized for not spending enough time with our children when we work and we are criticized for focusing on our children too much when we don't work. Go figure. :eyes:

Funny, how those who don't have kids are the first to pipe up and define what the PERFECT balance for a mother is. IMO, there is no one perfect balance. If a mother chooses to focus primarily on her children, I respect her choice.

[kiraboo]

77. I think the girl has a point! I'm 41, have three kids, and stay at home

mostly. I cook virtually everything from scratch, clean my own large home, do the laundry, & love, comfort and coach my children. AND I find it incredibly boring when all women talk about is their kids. Yes, I'm a mom and proud of it. But does that mean I discard the other facets of my identity? I hope not. Alas, it strikes me that a lot of women do however. So many moms I know have great difficulty discussing anything other than their darlings and it's really dull. I'm all for exchanging the latest, but I don't want a two-hour monologue on how well, or poorly, little Johnny has been fitting in at his new school. Especially as this preoccupation tends to be associated with a complete lack of interest in me or my kids. I once met a woman through the local playgroup. I saw her at least once weekly in an intimate setting for FOUR YEARS before I discovered she had been in the Peace Corps. For Gawd's sake, I knew her children's shoe sizes, when each was immunized and the consistency of the little one's most recent bowel movement. The funniest thing about all this? I am the most beloved Mom in town. Seems other kids like people to act like people and not just like Mommies. I think YVR likes the same thing.

[bettyellen]

83. yes, i've heard too much about the bowel movements.....

now c'mon mommies who d'ya think gives a shit?
LOL!

[yvr girl]

84. That was very punny.

[bettyellen]

100. good for you, moms like you are too rare. when i went to my high school

reunion, and 97% of us went on to college, everywoman except one was "kids, house wherever, husband does blah blah blah." not terribly interesting, you have to admit.

[Lorien]

207. I wish I knew more moms like you!

I did years ago, but don't know many now. I also work as a professional artist, and find the same problem in the artistic community; some people put a label on THEMSELVES, and then never deviate from that. Believe me, hearing about someone's experiences with their agent or the new illustration board they bought or how they are pricing their paintings gets every bit as boring as sippy cups and dirty diapers (when it's ALL they ever talk about). It's terrible when your friends choose to identify themselves as a "what" instead of as a "who".

[bettyellen]

82. I know what you mean, I went out with a dear friend of mine

last week, she claimed she needed to get away from the baby, but i got to hear the damned cookie story four times. Not a good story the first time, really.
She lost a bit of her mind when she had the baby, she's the first to admit it and it is coming back, just not fast enough!
This is why they have to hang out with other Mom's it's an unspoken agreement to listen to this boring shit.
Don't get me wrong, I adore the kid, spending time w/ him is 10X better than any story.

[Sugar Smack]

87. HELLO! Sticking up for yvr girl...

I have read this entire thread and when I look at the OM, I see a small and frustrated outburst, probably borne of some recent incident or other. When I see the excitability of some of the responses (she ATTACKED mothers!!) I question whether you are listening to her side at all. She has stated that she knows other women who can have babies and have conversations that don't include their babies exclusively. She apologized for sounding a little too combative or general in her statement (I saw the word "some"; I did not see the word "all"). I'm seeing a battle of linguistics and yvr girl trying to explain herself (very articulately, I might add) and have the very parents she is NOT describing jump down her throat.

I know how she feels because occasionally I feel this way myself. I don't have a child,and I have some really good friendships with my friends who are mothers. Some, though, seem to have dropped the idea of having childless friends. I have one that was once extremely diverse in her interests, very funny and smart and engaging. Now she has the world carved into two categories: "cute" and "not cute". Maybe yvr girl recently had the same sort of conversation. The woman I'm talking about now has conversations with me that sound like shopping lists. "I went to Target and I bought this cute pair of overalls, pink socks to match, oh, I forgot to tell you, I bought her the cutest hat with a snail embroidered on it. We're going to go get her portrait done." Now, this can go on and on-without so much as a single "And how are you doing?" When she was the one who made the call.

Flame away, but just don't slap me with my post count. That's just not nice.

;-)

[yvr girl]

91. Thanks Sugar Smack

I appreciate your support. I really appreciate the fact that you read the whole thread.

I will cop to crass. I changed the message to be less offensive. I also admit to making a generalization. I could have named a handful of specific friends, but I didn't.

You were spot on when you said that the very parents I was NOT describing jumped down my throat. The very fact that they have DU as an interest (and maybe I'm making a general assumption here) and politics as an interest would take them out of the group I was describing.

I am constantly amazed how judgmental it can be on DU and not just when the barbs are headed my way. I thought we were the rational ones.

[ultraist]

101. How ironic!

LOL! Your post was judging "certain" mothers and you don't even have kids. HELLOOOO...

[yvr girl]

105. see bunny picture

[Sugar Smack]

116. If she was "judging"

Certain mothers, it was not a call on their attitudes (I love my children). That attitude is wonderful, earnest and heartfelt. She is speaking to their behavior in their relationships with childless adults. She's suggesting that there is more to talk about other than the minutae of a child's rearing. And before you get all het up about the word "minutae", let me just qualify that by saying that I know (I love children too-they're tiny, fascinating people with so much potential and love)what it's like to appreciate children.

But I also know what it's like to be on the other side of that adult behavior- not attitude -behavior. This is about behavior to another adult, not about one's attitude toward one's children.

[Lorien]

204. Well put, Sugar Smack

:thumbsup:

[RetroLounge]

155. How Ironic!

I know what she means and agree with her and I have 2 kids.

Do you have a point? Or did someone hit too close to home?

RL

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

188. I'm not sure what you are defending here?

But do rant on, it is interesting...

RL

[Sugar Smack]

125. Hey! I'm glad to be here!

Thanks-yours, apparently, was a very unpopular post, but it's a rant I've heard over and over again. So YOU are not alone. One thing I like about your posts is your ability to listen to the other side of the argument and consider your own argument. I like the way you've responded, and I like the way you will defend yourself in a theme which seems to be "black-and-white". Tell me- what inspired this post, anyway?

[yvr girl]

134. The phone call that broke the camels back

I was just frustrated by a conversation or lack thereof.

I think very few issues are black and white. I was completely surprised by the response, because I was not attacking anyone.

[Sugar Smack]

181. Please, what happened?

I'd love to kmow. It might clarify the emotion you feel. Come ooonnnnnn!

[Lorien]

206. Parents vs. the childless threads

aside from vegan vs. meat eater threads, there are few that are quite so vicious and heated on DU. It's always been this way. Suddenly, it becomes "us against them" and no one is listening to anyone. There was no attack against parenthood in your post, that certainly seems clear enough to me. The cruelest elements of these threads is the "since you aren't a parent, you simply can't understand" and "parenting is the most important job on earth" messages that so many put out there. How do they think it makes other DUers how can never have children feel? I have no husband, and I fear that global warming will kill us all in 20-50 years, so I can't have children for either and both of those reasons. That doesn't mean that I don't long for motherhood and a child to love. Yet still, some would call me "selfish" for not adding to the population anyway.Those of us who are childless can never win.

[Riding this Donkey]

98. People need to get a grip!

For goodness sakes!

People have got to realize that people grow up, have babies, get husbands, get jobs, get a house, and move on!

People have different experiences and therefore may grow apart.

There is nothing wrong with either person. But you may not be the most important in that persons life any longer. So get a grip!

You are now an adult with different experiences.

To put down others because they don't want to talk about what you want to talk about anymore is ridiculous!

[leftofthedial]

88. obsessive compulsive mothers are the bane of anyone who

works with their kids (teachers, coaches, fathers . . .)

The kidsusually suffer for it too.

[bettyellen]

93. a lot of my teacher friends bitch about that.. except the inner city high

school teacher- she has only latch keys, annd rarely ever hears from parents.
boy it's hard to strike the right balance in this country, huh?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

97. I'll let my wife know what you think of her....

...I'll let you know what she thinks of you after she finishes LOL at such an idiotic comment.

If you have children at some point in your life, let us know what you think then.

If you already have children, I hope you have someone taking care of them that really cares about them.

[ultraist]

102. I agree, I hope she can afford a full time nanny, IF she ever has kids

Interesting how people who don't have kids can be so judgemental of involved mothers. hmmm...

[Sugar Smack]

109. Nope. I think she was just expressing frustration

at an incident. I think that your wife may never have engaged in an actual conversation with yvr girl (nor have I. And thanks for the response, yvr girl!)so you and she can not know what she's thinking. Again, she said "some women", not "all women". From what I have read, yvr girl does appreciate children and mothers. She's not a monster. Is this knee-jerk response typical of us Dems? No. We're Dems because we process what people say and work it into our own experience without going the "you're with me or you're against me" route.

[sparky_in_ma]

104. Reading the OP completely

a discussion about what kind of world we're leaving todays children is not a bad idea. It would be nice to work toward leaving them a future.

[ultraist]

111. You read the edited version

Most of us had already commented before she edited the OP.

She devoted an entire thread to judging mothers that SHE FEELS focus too much on their children, even though she is 38 and does not have children.

I have never met a mother who had NO INTERESTS beyond her children. In fact, we had a lot of mothers volunteering at the KE HQ, because they were so concerned about the future of their children and other children.

But to take this out of her personal judgement of "certain" mothers, the real problem in our society is not too much focus on children, but not enough. Too many children go hungry, go without proper medical care, proper educational instruction and are generally neglected by our society.

[sparky_in_ma]

118. You made good points

can't disagree with what you said about mothers caring about their children. I've edited for clarity before, because the first words I wrote were incomplete. In that case I should have waited until my point was fully developed before I reacted on impulse. Mistakes get made.

After reading through the posts and the OP's responses, it would appear that a few particular instances sparked the post. From what I've read I'm not getting the impression that all mothers are being bashed. That's the problem with discussion boards, the written word doesn't convey tonal inflection, nor facial expression. Were all of us to meet in person, I think we'd all probably get along fine. We all want a better future for all of us, mothers, fathers, and children.

:)

[yvr girl]

122. I made the edits pretty early on

If you check the timestamp you will see that my second edit occurred about post 29

The first edit was to change from bowel movement to teething and that was done really early. It doesn't change the message at all, I just thought people would find it less offensive.

The second edit was to add the word 'some' in the subject line. It didn't change the meaning, I was just striving for clarity. I never said or meant all.

I by no means dedicated a whole thread to judging mothers who I feel focus too much on their children. I ranted about a few mothers who seem to cut themselves off from the rest of the world.

Would it have made a difference if I had called them Freeper mothers? Would the response have been more rational then?

[ultraist]

133. You started a thread to judge women who YOU feel focus too much on kids

Your OP was clear, WHY do "some mothers cease to be anything else."

What else was this thread about? I didn't see any other topic mentioned in your OP.

[yvr girl]

138. This was the heart of my post, in my mind. (the quote contained within)

Can we please discuss something besides sippy cups and junior's teething. How about the world we're leaving for them?

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

179. excuse me?

Do you have any education on sexism and misogyny?

You obviously didn't read the posts from the other parents here.

BTW, what do you do? I happen to have a very lucrative and interesting job. ;) It's also so lucrative that I have time to do volunteer work.

What is it you do?

[RetroLounge]

187. Yawn.

:eyes:

RL

[dddem]

259. between you and me...

I've worked with women all my life, had them as bosses and underlings, as well as co-workers, plus most of my friends are women! And I can tell you (but don't tell anyone, I don't want to start trouble) - we are our own worst enemies. We criticize when we should support. We make fun of when we should help. We berate when we should praise. Sometimes I don't get us. But in the end, we're all the same, and we're all better than the boys. So there.;)

[arKansasJHawk]

106. An illuminating article

I'm a little surprised no one's mentioned the Newsweek article from last week that bears greatly on this topic (if someone did, and I'm an idiot for missing it, apologies)

(snip)

Once my daughters began school, I was surrounded, it seemed, by women who had surrendered their better selves—and their sanity—to motherhood. Women who pulled all-nighters hand-painting paper plates for a class party. Who obsessed over the most minute details of playground politics. Who—like myself—appeared to be sleep-walking through life in a state of quiet panic.

(snip)

Instead of blaming society, moms today tend to blame themselves. They say they've chosen poorly. And so they take on the Herculean task of being absolutely everything to their children, simply because no one else is doing anything at all to help them. Because if they don't perform magical acts of perfect Mommy ministrations, their kids might fall through the cracks and end up as losers in our hard-driving winner-take-all society.
This has to change.

Newsweeks Mommy Madness

[Riding this Donkey]

110. As a mother I can tell you that is horse shit!

We do what we do for our children because we love them more than anything else in the entire universe.

When you love something as much as your child, you don't have to wonder why:

you worry about them,

you think about them,

you talk about them,

you do anything for them.

They are now the most important part of your life, they are not seperate from you!

And I know I do it all out of love for them. I love them more than I love myself!

[NashVegas]

117. Read The Article Before You Get Upset

We now have a situation where well-off women can choose how to live their lives—either outsourcing child care at a sufficiently high level of quality to permit them to work with relative peace of mind or staying at home. But no one else, really, has anything. Many, many women would like to stay home with their children and can't afford to do so. Many, many others would like to be able to work part-time but can't afford or find the way to do so.

[Riding this Donkey]

120. The fact is that once you have a child, you are the one

responsible for it in every way.

Sure there are societal impediments to this, but to insinuate that woman who talk about their children, or put everything they have into their children is something that is wrong or to be ashamed of is wrong.

Woman who give their lives to their children are not doing it for themselves. They do it for their children.

I believe that people who do not have children cannot understand that you could possibly love something more than you love yourself!

And to say that women with children only want to talk about sippy cups and teething to their friend with no children is boring, well I say this:

Maybe it is the person that has no children who are boring the hell out of the person who has more important things to do rather than discuss that persons day at work, where they ate, what they bought, their boyfriend, etc.

A relationship can change and it is not the person who had the childs' fault. Nor do I believe it is the non parents fault either, i believe people have different importances and interests because of their lives!

[ultraist]

128. Demonization of mothers is a fundie paradigm

It's rooted in the Bible by the "fatherGod" image and all of the misogynist scripture. It's perpetuted by judgemental hostility towards mothers to maintain the sexist, socially violent culture towards women.

From the witch hunts to the evil pagan "godess", women and mothers have been the target of those who claim a moral highground.

Freud certainly didn't help matters either with his is extremely sexist Oedipal theories that blamed mothers for everything dominated the field of psychiatry for decades.

Mothers have been blamed for autism, homosexuality, and everthing under the sun.

The over involved mother as described in the OP is an old meme we've seen time and time again.

Here's some over the top examples of the demonization of mothers in pop culture:

Mommie Dearest

Ma Barker in Bloody Mama and an absolute she-demon of a domineering mother in Wild In The Streets (interestingly, her son doesn't turn gay, but goes on to lead a revolution of doped-up, sex-crazed teenagers).

- Frances Fisher for Titanic. But Frances as Kate's social climbing mom is the real repellent force keeping our true-lovers apart for the first hour-fifteen or so.

- Anne Bancroft for The Graduate. The rictus grimace of hate on her face as Dustin runs off with Katherine Ross is a screen image that still haunts me. Demonic? He keeps her at bay by swinging a crucifix, for cryin' out loud.

- Angela Lansbury in The Manchurian Candidate. A mom so manipulative, she can finagle a political assassination.

- Piper Laurie in Carrie. Jesus wept.

- Anne Ramsay in Throw Momma From The Train. She made matricide fun.

- Meryl Streep in Kramer Vs. Kramer. She leaves her husband and kid to "find herself" -- unwittingly turning Dustin into the best dad in the world -- and then returns to rip everything to shreds.

- Maureen O'Sullivan as John Candy's mom in Only The Lonely, cattily picking apart the love of his life (Ally Sheedy).

- The Queen alien in Aliens. One big, nasty mother.

List from:
http://www.canoe.ca/MothersDay/movies.html

[Riding this Donkey]

132. You are absolutely right, it is!!!!!!!!! n/t

[bunny planet]

212. They are separate from you. That's the hardest part of raising them .

Watching them grow, and letting them go.

Here's some Kahil Gibran for everyone.

Children

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of
Children."

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit,
not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you
with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that
is stable.

-- Kahlil Gibran

[seabeyond]

226. i love this

thanks for sharing. read it a couple years ago

[NashVegas]

108. I Used to Feel Sorry For Stay-at-Home Moms

Then, I met a wonderful couple, both ex-Air Force.

She left medical school when she became pregnant with their first and stayed home until their third was 9, some 15-16 years later. He got a job as an engineer.

I felt sorry for her when I met them. Her husband had the fun gig, albeit with plenty of overtime, while she had the diapers and the homework, the supervising, the take-em-to-the-pool, teach-em-how-to-throw-overhand, and general full-time nurturing role.

The children have mostly grown up now, and they are, collectively, the most caring and giving kids I've ever known in my life. When I realized what this woman accomplished, I couldn't believe my own stupidity for ever pitying her. I didn't know who I envied more: her, or the kids.

It made me glad I don't have children, because I would never have been able to give them as much as she had, as I was bent on career.

It also put me firmly in the belief that a kid with an at-home parent (regardless of whether it's the mother or the father) has a HUGE leg up on those who don't. As long as there's not an abusive situation, anyone who tells you different is living in denial.

The woman I'm speaking of is now back on the career track and making more $$ in two years of that than her husband, who's been working all along. We joke around she'll be Mayor within 8 years.

[seabeyond]

124. i had children old, knew i would go back to work

there was no way i could do it and let someone else raise my son. for the first couple years i had all the pity crap gonna on with me as another baby came along. babies are hard for me. so tired all the time

now at 7 and 9, we are all so blessed. have an enviroment of security and safety and strength and peace. i wouldnt trade it for anything in the world

i now feel sorry for husband having to get up and go to work everyday and not getting to experience life with the kids the same as i

some moms cant/wont do that. and they make it work their way.

i feel we just have gotta know, we are all uniquely made, making our choices, creating our world. we dont need to be such harsh judges. and i am not refering judgement to your post. just made me remember how i saw the world differently before i had a child

[shrike]

Sure wasn't a leg up for me

Or a lot of people I know, for that matter.

I think the kids will have a leg up if Mom ENJOYS what she's doing. If she's not, life is not too much fun.

An awful lot of women (my mom included) had kids and stayed home because both were expected of them. I'm sure if my mother had it to do over again, she wouldn't have had kids, or at least darn fewer than she had.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

114. I agree some get BORING.

Some of them probably fall into it being surrounded by what you said but others probably think they have to pretend they're interested in jr's teething. It's boring as hell.

[Riding this Donkey]

115. Maybe they think what you have to say is now boring to them! n/t

[Proud2BAmurkin]

123. That's probably true nt

nt

[independentchristian]

121. Everyone has different goals in life

There is no job more important than being a good parent.

She may not be aspiring to be "President," but if she raises her child well maybe (s)he will grow up to be the President that you have dreamed of all of your life.

So, people criticize the "religious right" by saying that they want everyone on the planet to be like them, but then the same people turn around and criticize women who want to stay home and raise their children just because it's not something that they want to do? Ain't it ironic?

[Sugar Smack]

135. She's not criticizing those who want to stay home-

Did you read her posts and find even one comment bashing people who decide to stay at home? I didn't. Her point is that she would lke her friends to meet up with her on what were once similar issues but have disintegrated into mindless escapades of burping issues or bathroom issues. I love babies. I love stay-at-home mothers. I don't think I'm a monster. But I'd like that friend of mine to please come back! She's got a lot to say! What she's criticising is, I repeat, not the attitude but the bahavior!

[ultraist]

145. wiping asses and burping babies is a dirty job, somebody's gotta do it

Those selfish bitches should do their job, "the mindless escapades" of wiping asses and burping babies and not talk about what they do during the day. How dare they not talk about things "I" think are important. 'I don't have kids, but I am such a better mother. '

"Disintegrated into mindless escapades." That pretty much says it.

[Sugar Smack]

159. Comeonnnnn, Ultraist!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm talking about talking about something. We're on the same side, darlin'. Don't get all pissed off. G'night.

[seabeyond]

147. maybe then, instead of judging said friend

one would understand, seeing it is a valued friend, that her friends focus has been taken away from world events to the living breathing human she is totally responsible for. and maybe it is time she go out and about and find some friends that are more in tuned to what she is looking for in life, than judging said friend, and other mothers on the job/role/life we have chosen

i dont ever see the thread.,

oh those awful single people

but i have seen thread after thread on the out of control children, dont raise a tone to a child or you abuse, to the mother that does too much

again. why not just allow whomever to make their own choices in life and let it go

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sugar Smack]

141. Nope, I'm a Democrat who doesn't agree

with some of the posts I've seen. How does that make me a troll? Please explain.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

127. I know that parenting is an important job, etc., but

I have run across people who become incapable of talking about anything but their kids once they have them. I've also had former friends who have no time for me once they have kids--until they want a free babysitter.

It's boring as hell, and being the focus of so much intense attention can't be good for the kids, either. I sure hated it as a child (and even more so as a teenager) when Mom got into her "micromanage Lydia's life" mode, as she often did when she was depressed.

One of my earliest Japanese friends married an American and moved to the States. She was disgusted at how many of the women in her neighborhood seemed to talk exclusively about their children. Sure, Japanese mothers can be world-class over-protectors and coddlers, but it would be the odd mother who didn't have some other sort of interest, especially if the children were in school.

[Riding this Donkey]

137. "I know that being single is an important job, etc., but"

I have run across people who become incapable of talking about anything but their jobs, boyfriend, weight, etc. I've also had former friends who want to occupy all of my time, without an understanding for what I may be going through and expect me to go out with them, when I can't even afford a baby sitter.

They are boring as hell, and being the focus of oneself with such intensity can't be good for themselves, either. I sure hated it when my mother paid absolutely not attention to me, because her job and friends were more important than me. She ignored me even more when I was a teenager when she was busy reliving her own youth.

One of my earliest friends was disgusted at how many of the women in my neighborhood seemed to talk exclusively about themselves. Sure, mothers can have somethings to themselves, but it would be the odd mother who paid attention their children.

Get the drift?!?!?

[ultraist]

139. oh yes, those meddling horrible mothers, what selfish bitches they are

I mean, like, you know, why don't they just butt out of their kids lives? Like, really...if we want to do drugs and have unprotected sex, it's none of their fucking business.

And ya, I had a friend who told me American mothers are the worst, the most meddling. Like, let's ignore the fact that Japanese children have the highest suicide rates.

:eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

152. What brought this on? Why is everybody so touchy?

Did I say I hated all mothers?

Geez, I would have liked to have been one myself.

I'm not talking about ignoring kids instead of taking care of them. I'm talking about overprotection, the kind of parent who won't let their kids ride a bike because they might fall over, and micromanaging, the kind of parent who won't let their kid just draw a picture but have to guide them in drawing it or draw it for them. I've seen both.

If the shoe fits, wear it, if not, ignore it.

By the way: the suicide rate of Japanese youth is more than matched by the murder rate of American youth.

[AlCzervik]

131. i was lucky enough to be able to stay home for the 1st 4 years of my

daughters life and i don't regret a minute of it, the sippy cups, the worries and the joys. When i see a mom or dad of little ones i always feel connected to them in a little small way.

[bloom]

140. ...mothers who cease to be anything...

And what exactly have you accomplished? (Any Nobel prizes?)


Besides getting quite a few people riled up, that is.....

[ultraist]

142. who knows but I bet IF she ever becomes a mother, she will be PERFECT

Let's trash women some more, it's oh so fun to engage in sexist bashings.

This has pretty much been covered on this thread: Obssessed, boring, mindless, meddling mothers whose job as a mother has no value. What else can we say to insult women?

I'll start. I think that Hillary Clinton is really homely and her daughter, OMG, she is just hideous. I bet Chelsea is neurotic from having a mom who had a career. It's just so unhealthy for a mother to not focus enough on her children.

[bunny planet]

213. Gawd, would you give it a rest.

Your over the top judgemental reaction and unduely harsh comments are so much more offensive than anything the original poster said. She didn't say anything to merit the amount of vitriol I have seen aimed at her on this thread.

[ultraist]

219. "Gawd, would you give it a rest?"

Your over the top judgemental reaction and unduely harsh comments of me are so much more offensive than anything than I said. I didn't say anything to merit the amount of vitriol I have seen aimed from you.

:eyes:

[bunny planet]

227. How mature, when you don't have an answer just parrot what the other

person has said. Your comments to anyone who disagreed with you here were self-righteous, preachy, and downright nasty. Several people have responded to you in the same way I did. I posted a poem earlier in the thread, not vitriol, and only made one comment in response to you.

You can dish it out, but apparently, you can't take it.

Congrats, you are now officially on my snooze list.

[jeanarrett]

244. Agreed!

Simmer down. . .

[RetroLounge]

161. anything ELSE

did you read beyond the title?

RL

[ultraist]

166. so, it's NOT ok to be just a mom?

Interesting, that the nearly all of the people here trashing moms are people who do not have children.

As an experienced parent, with lots of experienced parent friends and having read quite a lot of scholarly research on the difficulties mothers face and various ways they deal with the incredibly demanding job, I'm not really interested in hearing childless people make presumptious and arrogant comments about mothers, as if they would be PERFECT IF they had kids.

It sounds like someone is being immature, feeling left out and jealous because the mother is very involved with her children. It's natural and good for a parent to feel this way about their young children, why demonize mothers this way?

It's sexist to debase mothers this way, calling them: "mindless" "boring" "meddling" "obsessive" etc

ANYONE who is the least bit educated on misogyny and how it manifests, would not be engaging in this mother bashing.

[RetroLounge]

171. I don't think it's POSSIBLE to be just a mom.

So making it OK is beside the point. I have not read her original post, but she edited it, and you still seem to be in a rage from the original.

again, why do you rage on for three paragraphs bashing the OP in a response to me?

Methinks you protest too much, had a nerve touched, a bit close to the bone, etc. Maybe getting in touch with your anger might help.

We have 2 kids, and my wife somehow manages to work fulltime running a retail business, work with me to keep the house clean, cook, shop, be an engaged mother, be active with their school, and talk about much much more outside of the kids.

But I also know women who seem to have had their brains rewired in such a way that any conversation at all somehow leads to talking about their kids.

And your last sentence is amazingly condescending, not to mention a pile of steaming toddler shit...

RL

[bloom]

169. there really wasn't

much beyond the title.

And if she wants to not offend people - she has a ways to go. A person could raise the topic without insulting people to begin with. I think the thread should have been locked as flamebait.

Why are you defending her?

[RetroLounge]

174. I am not defending her.

I don't think she needs defending. Many on here knew what she meant, and were smart enough not to go into a rage which says more about them than the OP.

I think she made edits and tried to explain, but the "Mothers Against All Others(tm)" have their panties in a bunch over it. Personally, as a father of two with an extensive network of friends, families and neighbors with and without kids, and having seen woman who meet her criteria, I find the whole thing rather hilarious.

An attack on one is an attack on all motherhood!

By the way, Apple Pie sucks ass too...

and if I choose to defend her, well, deal with it...

RL

[bloom]

180. What is it with some dads who get on the computer & cease to do anything

else?


Sounds like you can't decide if you're going to defend her or not.

[RetroLounge]

183. Yawn

No point...

B'Bye

RL

[bloom]

186. exactly

just as there is no valid or good point to this thread - unless people want to look for reasons to insult people.

Of course, maybe....

[RetroLounge]

189. No point to this thread

but you found reason to post here.

Of course, maybe....

RL

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

192. No, not really

:hi:

RL

[Bettie]

143. Just an idea

But you need to bring up other topics because it is hard sometimes to switch gears, especially for those of us who spend large amounts of time with pre-verbal children.

Another suggestion would be finding a time to visit with your friends when they can be out without the kids.

I try not to talk about my kids, but the fact is that they are my life right now as a SAHM. I talk about politics, games, history, and sundry other topics, but my kids are the center of my life right now.

I've not ceased to be a lot of the things I once was, but I have put some aspects of my life on hold for now. Its just the way it has to be sometimes.

[ultraist]

146. If she was a real friend, she'd offer to babysit and give mom a break

[seabeyond]

148. i never asked a friend to babysit, nor family for that matter

never. wouldnt want to be called one of those selfish people that talk nothing but kids but to pawn them off on a friend to babysit, kinda gal, lol lol

[yvr girl]

150. Hey, I have done that

You're making assumptions again.

[seabeyond]

157. hey and yvr........

really with a friend without kids, and going thru my kids experience i wouldnt sit and talk kids with you. also if in a group of women, and all of us were mothers, but one childless adult, again i would make a strong effort to keep conversation away from kids so you would equally get to be a part of conversation too. i wouldnt be so thoughtless to my friends that dont have kids, or friends that dont want to talk about the kids

[Karenina]

199. Hey, yvr girl

Sorry I popped off at you. A pain button got pressed. KNEEJERK!

I remember feeling the loss of my girlfriends once they had kids. I NEVER thought I'd have any, nor did any of my friends. MUSIC! ENVRONMENT! POLITICS! FIGHT THE POWER!!! OM HARI OOOOMMM! I figured out real quick though, that what I initially processed as the loss of my girlfriend was the gain of a new friend (rather friends. My oldest extended twin kids are 35). I stopped talking to mom and started talking to the kids. They're space cadets. (For a hot minute I knew ALL the good games). Now they're adults. You get a WHOLE DIFFERENT ball o' wax when you AIN'T Mutti! Done adopted me a new batch in Yurp.

After I had my 1st, I had to call an old buddy whose daughter did overnights with me when he had to travel. She was a WENCH to him, angel with me. I apologized for the hard time I'd given him when I grokked WHY he behaved as he did...

Put my horn in its case and it stayed there untouched for 4 years after the 2nd. Diagnosed autistic... Sorry, I was mono subject and sought out others who were similarly afflicted. Had to dump a friend when she tried to claim my Sunday FOOTBALL time. Dad was home and kids knew to ask HIM about any of their concerns while Mom was watching the game. Yvr girl, I was SO TIRED, ALL THE TIME. I was unable to maintain relationships that were not in sync with the kid thing.

The thing about 'em is imho, their trip is it's ALL ABOUT THEM. We're ALL trying to figure out what that means! ;-)

[shrike]

154. Now I know what I've been missing all these years

Whenever I see a friend or acquaintance, I try hard to ask them about their lives, what they are doing, what's bugging them, what's making them happy, etc ...

From the sounds of these posts, I shouldn't be talking about them. I should be talking about ... ME!

[bettyellen]

158. apparently they think you are if you aren't breeding.

that seems to be the assumption here.

[seabeyond]

164. breeding.

breeding. like that isnt meant to be derogatory. why would you say it like that if you arent looking to put someone down. you didnt see a thread started about people who dont have kids. it is a thread always attacking the parent, or the child. and then when a parent syas hey wait......we are breeders and putting you down.

have you seen any thread started challenging people who decide not to have children. i have utmost respect for your ability to decide for yourself if you want to be a parent or not. totally your choice. not judgement either way.

it is the parent and child that these threads continually focus on

[bettyellen]

176. oh calm down. i just back from babysitting for a self described proud

breeder. i am the daughter of a serious breeder myself.
there are trade offs, if you are going to be intensely focused on one thing like that or on anything obviously....
but i guess it's a phenomenon when you see a woman you know well change so intensely. part of them can submerge, and i don't know if it all comes back.
In RL, we are all polite and pretend we care about the cookie story and the poo poo, you do that for freinds and try to ride it out.
I'm not faking it here. LOL.
i think it sucks that even in the most enlightened couples i know, it's still a much bigger burden timewise on the mom. that pisses me and my friends off a lot more than the word breeder does, i tell ya. .
but, i'm sorry if you find the word offensive. we use it in jest where i am from.

[El Fuego]

165. I think yvr girl is exactly right.

Women with young children become mothers, and nothing else. It's true. It's not a bad thing, it's just the way it is and the way it has to be.

It's just frustrating for the childless to try to have any meaningful communication with someone whose whole world is their kid.

[NicoleM]

172. It is NOT true.

I am not nothing else. I'm all kinds of things. I'm still a wife and a friend and a daughter and a granddaughter and an employee and a Democrat. AND a mother.

[El Fuego]

177. OK it's not true for you!

:hi:

I take it back and add the following disclaimer: except for those women are wonderful and brilliant enough to be DEMOCRATS!!!!

On edit: I didn't mean my original post in an insulting way. I know women who build their lives around their children, and I think it is an awesome, beautiful thing, like artists with their life's work.

[seabeyond]

182. hey take it back, i am a democrat

and i wasnt so wonderful and brilliant the first 6 months of kids. afterwards, sure........bah hahaahah

[seabeyond]

178. i wasnt that good. when mine were babies

the best i did, the most i did, was take care of all in love. anything else fell to the way side. i had little expectation of myself, and my husband was kind enough to do the same for me. so in that time, there was no rushing about trying to do, when i was too tired to do, and we had a peaceful house

that is the thing with threads like these. and why people are so passionate in them. we are all different, make different choices, live different. we are all uniquely great just as we are. we dont want all of us to be the same, how boring

i did have a friend, babies same age as me, she was all over the place, doing all kinds of things. i didnt even kinda have that kinda energy. thought was nifty for her, and totally loved how i lived.

i am one that was pretty much just a mom, and wife sometimes, as the poster said, and i was doing just great

[superconnected]

173. I like to think there are a lot more faucets to women and they don't

Just become nothing, because they are a mother.

My nieces who are mothers are also figure skaters, protesters, and many more things. Most mcjobs don't define anyone. You can be a complete person without one.

I know, I have a mcjob and believe me, it does not define me.

[Ilsa]

184. Shit. It seems like we can't do anything toplease anyone. We're

damned if we don't care enough; criticized if we're too interested in our kids, and someone finds fault with everything in between if it doesn't suit their agenda.

[bloom]

190. Don't forget - some people don't like kids in restaurants...

(although the ones I noticed the other day were perfectly fine).

But that was another flamewar or two or three.....

[seabeyond]

193. since that thread, oh lordy

has my perception changed looking at the outside world. tucking children under arm when we go out into the world, with all those people my kids irritated. looking in peoples eyes now as my kids walk past them to see if they cringe. bah hahahaha

i was surprised by that thread, truly was

[ultraist]

205. LMAO!!! I took 6 kids to a restaurant this weekend! LOL!

I let the set of two year old twin boys come with me up to the buffet bar! I told them NOT to touch the food though because it was "hot." They didn't either and all of the kids sat very nicely in their seats throughout the dinner.

[Pithlet]

198. Welcome to parenthood.

Never have I been so judged in my life. It truly shocked me. I kind of get used to it, but it still gets me every once in awhile, especially when I see it here. Don't ever go to some of the child free sites on the web. It will truly make you never want to go out in public again. Despite all of the good, one of the unfortunate effects of the internet on me is it has shown me all the different kinds of hate I didn't even know existed.

[put out]

185. I'm not going to pile on you here.

I have been on both sides. When I did not have a child, I wondered how my vibrant attractive friends could stand to live in such a messy environment with the baby right at the center of all of it.

Then I had one. I am not (very often) sorry, but I would want to grab adults by their lapels and say "talk to me talk to me talk to me please" when my world was engulfed by the needs of a little human. I was a living chef and educator and cartoon. I didn't even bother to put on a shirt; I just draped it on the front door in case anyone came to call.

I can understand your frustration. It is a daunting responsibility to raise a child. It is consuming and people can be both delighted and overwhelmed. For now, your friends have to do it; they just gut it out. Your friendships might be O.K. It takes a while. Babies don't do so well without a whole lot of attention and they've got to have it and it doesn't matter whether you feel like it or not or whether you are ill or well or whether you have slept or been awake or if your head hurts or if you have had an argument with a loved one or how much money you have. Your friends may envy you your freedom.

Parents can be both bored with their roles, and fascinated by the growing child, and so very tired. I know I was. Try to be patient.

Take it easy.

[ElaineinIN]

196. ROFL... didn't put on a shirt

how many days did you just not find the time to shower....I can't count the number.


Tell you what, I'll get some interests in between work, laundry, school projects, homework, choir, dance lessons, making lunch, making dinner, brushing teeth, extracting legos from my feet, gluing Barbie's leg back on, going to school meetings....and hell, I only have one.

[Pithlet]

197. You did not mean to generalize.

But, it doesn't matter. The child haters will be out in full force, and then the parents defending themselves, and all flames will break loose.

Just like yestereday. One asshole parent keeps his kid at a restaurant puking, and one other person defends that, and the whole lounge turns into parent bash fest 2005. We are all lumped in with the bad parents here. It's how it goes.

[Sheets of Easter]

203. Motherhood and housewivery is legalized slavery.

Nothing less.

[Scout]

222. that's why I always say....

If motherhood was really such a great job, men would have it.

[wildeyed]

208. Don't worry,

we think you're boring, too.

[Bouncy Ball]

209. It took a while to read all this.

If mothers want their whole world to be about their kids, so what?

It's no skin off your nose, right?

And if they are boring you to death with only talking about kid stuff, put some distance between you and them or find a way to tactfully tell them how you feel.

There's no crime in being single-minded and it usually is a passing thing, anyway.

Before I was a mother, I had a friend who had two kids under the age of four and was going through a divorce. ALL she could talk about and I mean ALL she could talk about was the divorce, her bastard soon to be ex husband and her two kids.

Subjects which, after the first fifty verbal dissertations on them, I quite frankly lost any interest in.

So I started lining up babysitters she could interview and use and we started going to movies, restaurants, girls nights out. She loved it! And she started talking about other things!

I'm not saying you should necessarily do that. When I had my daughter I was pretty obsessed at first. But then they get older and you expand your world again.

No biggie.

[No Exit]

210. They will pay (evil cackle)... they will pay

for being a starry-eyed bore!

Ah, yes, they will pay! Look at the baby, so adorable, and she's SMILING that adorable toothless smile! Look at the precious little 3-year-old who is "washing the car".

Give it 12 years. BOOOAAHAHAHA! Just 12 years.

They will see things in a whole different light. (cackle)

(Okay, maybe having to live for years with a hormonally-imbalanced lunatic is too great a punishment for just having been a bore who talked about sippy cups all the time... oh, well, too late!)

[seabeyond]

211. BOOOAAHAHAHA! Just 12 years.

that is so funny and eery, i can just hear your boooooaahahahaha. lol lol

i have a 12 year old girl living in my house. she has been here a month. driving my younger boys mad. the tone she uses on them all the time. pulled her into room tonight to talk to her. all nice i ask a question. she used the tone on ME.

lol lol lol

oh lordy did i explode. dont you dare take that tone with me.

husband heard all the way in the kitchen. scared him. i am thinkin reminded him of his mama. went in and kitchen was cleaned, i lmao.

so, must be 12 huh. lordy, all i am learning. wow, really hits them then

[No Exit]

215. My favorite book title on this subject is

"Get Out of My Life! But First Could You Take Cheryl And Me To The Mall?"

[bunny planet]

216. I love that book.

[No Exit]

217. I never read it... but I probably should have!

[bunny planet]

218. It's a very helpful book with two teenagers in the house and

another one fast approaching that age.

Guess it's safe to discuss teenagers in this thread at this time of the morning.(At least we are not discussing teething and baby poop, that would be so boring).

[seabeyond]

221. whatevAH................

lol lol lol

it was the whatever that initially brought her to my room

[bunny planet]

231. Does she say, talk to the hand cause the face ain't listening.

I used to love that one.

[seabeyond]

235. god didnt give me no daughter, lol lol he knew better

as jade knows better than to say THAT to me, bah hahah., ya right like that will happen. i just want to be aunt again, another month to go. but has been interesting to watch, see what i will go thru with boys in years to come, lol and for them to see my low tolerance of mouthing.

girls........

[No Exit]

240. I would be very happy if I never heard the word "DOH" again!

The Simpsons have hijacked our entire household!

[No Exit]

239. So... do you think the driving age should be 18 (or maybe 30)?

And what's with this crap about only wearing clothes with certain labels?? How pathetic is THAT??

What do you find to be the most effective anti-acne medicines?

LOL, there! Think that's boring enough to counteract those people talking about toilet training and stroller brands?

[seabeyond]

241. 16

i loved the freedom. i survived. most do. some dont

from day of birth didnt do the label thing though i could afford, wont at teenage, dont believe in it, what the kid does with earned money is their business. what we put on our body is not our worth. comfort our priority

soap and water, geed eating habit and exercise. i dont believe in all the "stuff". again, waste of money, lol lol this is fun


on edit: how did i do. did i pass, wink. not having teens

[No Exit]

242. SIXTEEN?? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T EVEN KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COLLISION AND LIABILITY! (pant pant) THEY DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FICA AND WITHHOLDING! BETWEEN MORTGAGOR AND MORTGAGEE! BETWEEN LDL CHOLESTEROL AND HDL CHOLESTEROL!

How can they possibly be expected to drive somewhere over all those hills and around all those curves??

If we could just get all those other cars to get off the road for an hour or so!... "Excuse me, all of you, but could you drive home and stay there for about an hour... my 16-year-old son is going to drive somewhere and I need the roads clear for him... yeah, just until he pulls into the parking space... thanks!"

There: that's the fun I had when I realized I was gonna HAVE to let them actually drive the car, eventually. Shrieeeeek!

16? Yeah, seems fine to me!:headbang:

[bunny planet]

246. Driving age, oh maybe 50 would be good.

:-)

[seabeyond]

247. bah ha, you want to drive them around to 50 huh, lol

just a mama not gonna let go. lol lol.

[No Exit]

257. LOL! Now you're talkin'!

Related subject: "Why do old people always drive so slowly?"

This question comes up sometimes when we're behind an elderly driver. The kids are driven crazy by this situation. After some thought, I did some thinking out loud. "Do those people drive slowly b/c they're old--or did they live long enough to get old BECAUSE they are slow drivers?" That one got them thinking (for about 5 seconds.)

[EastWind]

214. Really?

It's terribly exciting, and they want to share all the thrills. They should keep those little private stories within the family. A new mother should take on a project such as keeping a baby book-diary. That might help her to be less of a pain to the uninitiated friends.

But have patience, it wears off, believe me.

[CWebster]

223. What could be more important than raising children?

Yet, like caring for our elderly, as women's work, it is relegated to the level of sweat-shop slavery.

It is unfortunate that the Right has claimed "family values" as the rigid domain of the male dominated patriarchy. The Europeans understand and appreciate the value of family.

[Scout]

225. What could be more important than raising children?

curing cancer, solving world hunger, curing diseases that kill children...

[CWebster]

229. It isn't that those jobs aren't important

It is that raising children is.

[Scout]

248. no one said raising children is UNimportant...

I just don't think it's the MOST important job that any/every person can do.

[bloom]

236. well

even the disease curers had someone who raised them and who probably talked about the experience of raising them to someone.

Nobody is successful all by themselves.

[Scout]

249. yes, and if the Disease Curers

are otherwise busy raising MORE children, then who will cure the diseases???

the world has far, far too many ordinary average (and below average) citizens ... do we really need more??

[seabeyond]

250. (and below average) citizens ... do we really need more??

maybe that below average citizen because of his/her struggles are hugely more capable of love, than the intellectaully above average person that cant get out of their brain

wow what a statement, i am sure to incite, but the arrogance

lets look at hitlers doctors experiments with exactly that concept. hm..............

i totally embrace the below average citzen here and now, more than i have in the past, that is for sure

you dont think of spirit much do you. the spirit that we are, equal to all.......none more grand, more special

[Scout]

255. you missed part

the world has far, far too many ordinary average (and below average) citizens ... do we really need more??


it's not just the below average ... we don't need any more average citizens either ... how many problems would be solved or at least not as bad if we didn't have so damn many people of ANY kind???

I'm not gonna breed, 'cuz I am just average ... I don't need to go making more people to drain our already limited resources.

The OP is not saying motherhood should not be valued, she was saying that some women get so absorbed in their own experience that they can't/won't talk about anything else, and that she was sick of having to listen to the stories about the kids.

Some people on this board have pretty bad reading comprehension, and big chips on their shoulders.

[bloom]

253. I don't think the disease curer

is any more important than the person who raised the disease curer.



The "world" isn't always a good judge of who is making a special contribution while they are alive, anyway. Vincent Van Gogh, Emily Dickenson, for example.

And your post is just one example of how unappreciated motherhood is.

People should choose in what ways they wish to contribute - but I don't think it does the "world" any favors to not appreciate the people who bring new life into the world and give their time and love over to the endeavor of helping those lives to become functioning, contributing people.

[Telly Savalas]

230. Discussing the latest nuance of Gannongate.

Duh.

[No Exit]

243. Even better: discussing the latest nuance of Gannongate with

the children.

..."and, kids, see, in addition to not really being a reporter, the man was a male hooker."

"Hooker?"

"Yeah... you know, someone who rents/sells his body."

"Whoa... you shittin' me? You mean a whore?"

"Yes."

"Well, maybe they should call it the Whore House instead of the White House!"

"Very good, my son. Go to the head of the class!"

[rbnyc]

232. After my son was born...

...for a few months I really had no interest in anything besides him. I wasn't interested in my husband, family, cats, friends, guitar, computer. Even a teddy bear that I've slept with for 20 years (yeah, I know) I put away because I just didn't want it around. It was like I just couldn't divide my love.

After a while, I was able to find love in my heart again for my husband, cats, family, friends...and even my teddy bear. But it was a very strange experience.

But beyond that, I think parents talk about their kids for a few reasons. One is that they are so much more important than just about anything in their lives up to that point, no matter how full their lives were of important, valuable things. The other is that kids require such an enormous amount of attention. It is all consuming.

But I don't think that parents are less likely than non-parents to make choices that are good for the environment, or to be progressive or politically active, or to care about the world. I think it just might be harder for some people to see behind the sippy cups and teething rings.

[Silverhair]

233. Are you a parent yet?

I doubt that you are - yet. I hope that joy finds you some day. Then you will understand - I hope.

BTW - If you think that's bad, wait until you meet a new grandparent.

[HarmonyB]

237. Good point

but men can be just as bad.

Visionaries point the way, the "great" implement them.

The rest of humanity just breeds, no better than livestock.

No point to getting upset, arguing with them is like arguing with a cow, it's just a silly thing to do.

And alot of the replies, well they are just fooling themselves, they are Republicans, they sold out, they became what they hated to give their lives some meaning. They serve as warnings to real progressives on how slippery the slope really is.

[CornField]

238. Hmmm... Interesting. I've found non-mother friends to be boring

They normally have very little interest in anything which isn't self-serving.

[trudyco]

245. Such a loaded question

Well, I am probably an obsessive personality. When it was work it was work. When the twins were born 3 months early it was baby development, prematurity, fretting over every illness, therapies.

Having come from a large family and done lots of babysitting I loved kids. I thought I knew all about kids. But it is completely different when it is your own. They look so darn fragile. They do the stupidest things (how do ANY of them survive childhood? Particularly little boys?). From 1.5 years to 4 is the hardest because they are mobile yet ignore/don't understand "Stop. Stay here. Don't move. That will burn you. You do that the cat will scratch you. Don't eat that. You can not fly." etc. A very few parents can let them be, figuring the odds are they will survive. Most of us are just paranoid. Maybe its the BOwling for Columbine factor.

From 4 to 7 you want the best for them. Everything you had that was great. Everything you didn't have that was great. You want them smart, charming, well rounded, open minded (maybe not NEOCOns), well behaved. Otherwise you are a sh*tty parent. Everybody seems to be judging you. Do you spank? Eww. bad parent. Is your child spoiled because you don't spank? Eww. bad parent. Do you vaccinate? Eww, filling your kids with mercury and god knows what else. Don't vaccinate? Eww. Exposing your kids to fatal diseases and other kids too. Some parents can just ignore it. The rest of us are paranoid.

Around 7 you start realizing the slate isn't blank anymore. For better or worse their personalities are emerging. They aren't going to be everything. And you aren't the worst parent in the world. Also, they start paying more attention to their friends. Most go to school for a good chunk of the day and then don't want to tell you about it when they get home. They become part of the establishment. You let go a little, enough to get back into the workforce. Enough to have conversations. Take up a hobby. Clean the house. Something.

Some of us decide to homeschool. This does extend the incessant kid talk. Some go back to work early and go through the process quickly.

None of it completely goes away. After all, even the best spouses don't usually compare to the hugs, kisses and hand made get well cards you can get from your kids. How can you NOT put that special relationship above all others?

And then there are special needs kids. That is a whole nother ball game.

Here's to your future yvr. I hope you get to experience the poop infested, spit up, sippy cup world I lived in (minus the 3 month prematurity part). There is no experience like it in the world.

[bloom]

252. When my son was 2 or 3

I took him to a mother's day out sort of thing - while I went off to volunteer with a peace group working on the Nuclear Freeze (it was in the 80's).

While I was there trying to do something for peace, my son was learning from the other boys about aggressiveness and power struggles. I could see how it was going to be - even then - what kids learn from their peers.


(As far as most things that were going on in society with music, etc. - I was pretty clueless and to this day - the 80's remains pretty much of a blur.)

[Ellen Forradalom]

251. Pardon the pun, but it's a mother of a job

Having been a mother for five years now (during which time I learned to play a little banjo and ukulele as well as some music theory, trained a dog, took classes in Judaism and Hebrew, etc., lest you think I stopped being human) I can tell you it's a real bitch of a job.
You're in charge of an autonomous being with its own agenda, unpredictable, ever changing. You can imagine that supplies plenty of conversation fodder. If these mothers you encounter aren't good conversationalists, well, that's a different problem.

[SarahB]

254. Because sometimes nothing else is their life...

is going as planned or as they wanted. Perhaps, they put their career stuff on hold or geared it down to meet the needs of other people they held a responsibility to. Perhaps after they had their children, their spouse just completely emotionally detached from them. Perhaps they didn't have a lot of friends because they didn't fit in much because every time they tried to discuss other things beyond that of children, the people in the "mommy world" didn't get it and the people outside the mommy world didn't want to deal with their children. Perhaps they never had a break or anyone who cared if they did. Perhaps not.

Perhaps they're just airheads like 90+% of people. I don't know. :shrug:

[jeanarrett]

256. I'm just responding. . . not necessarily to the post above mine

Come on, people, we all know that "stay-at-home" mothers are basically a good thing. But this is not the 1950's. I grew up in the 60's and 70's and my parents made me work, work, work and my mom was not doing crafts with me and spending her whole life revolving it around me, driving me to every thing under the sun and making sure I had play dates three days a week. Her life was hard enough. You made your own friends, good or bad, and they didn't referee that either. They worked their asses off too, much like a lot of us do today.

Don't get me wrong, I love my parents and they did the best they could, but we (my four brothers and I) had a life of our own separate from them, and we liked it that way. Remember being able to take off for the whole day (after chores or whatever) and having to be home for lunch, dinner and when the "streetlights came on?" No cartoons! We were out building tree houses and forts and exploring. Probably doing stuff you can't today, trespassing and such. :)

We weren't clinging to ma and pa - we had our own 8, 9, 10, 11 year old lives. Nobody drove us to every activity that ever existed, most of the time we couldn't afford it and if it was less than ten miles away, we rode our bikes if we wanted to participate! I have five kids of my own that I am raising alone and it is not easy, but they are independent; I don't have to be involved in every facet of their lives to make my own life. I know what the poster is talking about. I've had friends that could not talk about or have anything else to say unless it's about one of their kids or one of "hubby's" weird idiosyncrasies. These friends are also the ones who think that if their kid walks or talks before yours, they are absolutely smarter! Give me a break. I lived in the U.P. of Michigan where there is not a whole lot to do but drink, have sex, cook, take care of the hubby and kids (expected to the exclusion of everything else) and go to church. I still found other stuff to occupy my brain because my four little kids DID sometimes drive me nuts! I've been with girlfriends who do nothing but talk about the "cute snail embroidered on their baby's hat" and the four hour shopping trip because hubby wanted barbecued ribs for dinner. Give me a break! My kids, by the way, are independent and get great grades. I don't need to micromanage their lives or use them vicariously for my own lack of one, which is what I think this poster meant by her "subject line."

Just my HO. Flame me.

On edit: I do have a life and work fulltime.

[demnan]

261. This is why women who are single tend to seek out other singles

and couples tend to socialize with other couples. The interests are simply different. Sometimes a friendship can transcend these differences, but I've found in most cases it cannot.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

262. This thread reminds me of those cartoon snowballs, rolling down a mountain

and picking up all the skiers and everyone else, becoming progressively more huge as it rolls down the mountain.

I guess I should actually read the posts sometime! :o

[JNelson6563]

263. First of all this is lounge fodder

second of all if they didn't become strictly identified as their child's mommy they would be something else. We see it often enough here, people who's chosen identity identifies them as someone's wife or a slavish fan to a politician.

It ain't just mommies, look around.

Julie