Are we at DU prone to a little too much hero worship?

[burythehatchet]

I know I'm not.

It seems that there have been a string of people who show up here and tell a story that makes so many of us simply fawn over them. The most obvious example was that of a so-called expert in electronic voting. What qualified her to be that expert is a mystery to me. Why no one was suspicious when she was sabotaging the work of a lot of people was also rather curious. There are other examples, as you know.

Without naming names there have been others that tell a story which doesn't ring true with me. But as progressives we are inclined to lend our support. Sometimes, the support is not justified. I guess my point is that we have a good thing here. There are people who mean to destroy it because it is a threat to them. Or they will use you for their own selfish wants and purposes.

I hope you don't become as cynical as I have in my old age, but please be careful in whom you invest so much financially and emotionally.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

1. Nice post, nominated...

[burythehatchet]

3. thanks man...

:)

[Walt Starr]

2. I think people on the whole are too prone to hero worship

There are no heroes, only myths.

A hero is a person who does some thing that generates the growth of a mythology surrounding the act making the person larger than life.

[Nimrod]

42. Well said!

People think in extremes. That's why it can be so hard to find a good debate sometimes.

[Tigress DEM]

44. Myths begin with real people sometimes, William Pitt is my hero.

I see so much of the media just hunkering down and taking the easy way out and then here is someone with real courage going out and getting the job done so we can know the truth....

I get all choked up and think isn't is sad that most reporters used to have this ethic and we took them for granted?

Freedom of the press has become the myth and if it takes heroic measures to get it back to REAL I guess I support heroic effort on the part of anyone willing to pick that bad ass pen and run with it.

[Just Me]

48. I don't see any problem in acknowledging acts of heroism.

I also don't see much "hero worship" here. :shrug:

I certainly have my "heroes", people whom I want to model my life after because they have proven themselves exceptional.

Obviously, that is not the "hero worship" which is being examined in this thread,...I hope.

[Tigress DEM]

59. You have the heart of it, acknowledging "ACTS" of heroism....

is healthy and simply the truth. Those who focus on seeing people as basically good and approving their heroic deeds while not casting them in stone and refusing to allow them any moment of weakness aren't worshiping someone as a hero.

Let me give you proof of hero worship here on the board with it's opposite. Bashing.

Kerry was supposed to be the one. In the movies, the one always gets it right. He didn't. He's now a fallen hero. Are we setting Dean up in the same manner?

[Tigress DEM]

62. Anyone have some REAL Journalists to add to a thread I put up?

I'm getting into a FIGHT BIG MEDIA group and I want to have some really good examples of hard hitting reporting like is posted on TruthOut and various other places, and I'd like to be as inclusive as possible.

I'm working from a comparisson/contrast theme and mainstream media is the FAUX News compared with REAL News that uses fact and investigation instead of spin and intimidation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1624693

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Actually many of us who have been around a long time were

suspicious when she (voting diva) began. Back when the old DU was online, she once posted a thread in the lounge where she listed in graph format the names of posters and personal info she had gleaned about them and it set off our radar.

When we challenged her, we were shouted down.

I'll always honor the hard work of people, and sometimes enemies can make strange bedfellows for progress...but many of us were well aware that she was a ripoff from the moment she conned DU'ers into researching and writing her book for her through a series of threads all the while hiding and lying about her true intentions.

And many of us were VERY aware that she had sold Clinton Cigars in the 90's.

Don't underestimate some of us. We do our homework.

[burythehatchet]

10. That's the first I've heard about Clinton cigars

I don't even want to know. Jeez. Great post on that thread you started BTW. I felt the same.

[Walt Starr]

15. She stopped making money on thagt gig

and moved on the BBV.

[Tigress DEM]

47. Still whatever she reported that we perceived as good...

Would still be good IF it were truthfully done by an honest DUer.

So when it turns out that a person is a FRAUD, but what they promoted got a great response, isn't it more a case of simply finding a way to keep the flame alive on the issue even if the FRAUD crashes and burns?

[CatWoman]

5. so now you don't want me to worship you????

}(

[burythehatchet]

9. don't worship me just buy me a beer tonight

:)

[CatWoman]

14. !

:D

[EFerrari]

6. Why do you ask, Oh Great One? :)

[Bluebear]

7. Fawning is right

This is a general comment but people can be so easily manipulated on the internets. I was on another forum (non-poilitcal) and a poster concocted a heartbreaking story, and everyone's "heart went out to them" and they started fund drives and sent flowers and it was all bullshit.

Your cynicism is just a cautionary tale. For those in true need omy heart and wallet is always open but hero-worship can be a dengerous thing.

[Mr_Spock]

8. I wouldn't have it any other way myself

Perhaps being a city kid I just don't trust anyone... Some people change over time, others never had good intentions - definitely doesn't hurt to have a healthy dose of skepticism from time to time...

[Boredtodeath]

11. Yes, sadly.

And when someone dares to ask the hard questions of this new "hero" too many rush to their defense allowing them to escape proving their allegations.

Then the allegations get repeated as fact without an iota of proof having been offered.

I believe we MUST all become more cynical. Ask the hard questions and require proof; don't accept allegations as fact.

In addition, we all need to follow a simple rule:
Stop looking for a hero and become one.

[Bluebear]

12. "Stop looking for a hero and become one."

Holy mackerel what a GREAT line!! :toast:

[burythehatchet]

13. Agreed. That is the philosophy of the day

or maybe of all time

"Be the change you envision" - Gandhi (?)

[nostamj]

21. along with....

DON'T JUST PREACH TO THE CHOIR,
MAKE THE CHOIR BIGGER!

[bear425]

25. Read my sig line. n/t

[Ladyhawk]

28. That's a great line. Thanks for that!

[Tigress DEM]

45. But then we all need role models....

But I do love that line! Can I quote you, Bluebear?

[Mr_Spock]

16. LOL - let's all be hero's!

What's kinda funny is I sometimes see links to crazy conspiracy theory web sites, and some are just too good to pass up. I forward the links to a few people I know. They are like "do you really believe what written in that article", I'm like, "no, I just think it's hilarious and I like what it says and how it's written". It's a way to introduce new thought patterns into people I know who are kinda on the fence WRT the Shrub/Iraq/Fundamentalism. It's funny not telling someone what you think of the article before sending it to them - then gauging their response after they read it.

[bush_is_wacko]

19. It's even funnier when they are so concerned about what you send them

they start researching for themselves and realize the conspiracy theory really isn't all that nutty! I never pooh pooh any theories until they are clearly unproven. Not very many of them are ever PROVED to be false. Not many of them are ever PROVED to be true either but there are some. The idea is to make people think outside the lines!

[Mr_Spock]

22. Exactly! The one guy I send them to feels a need to be informed

I end up getting even better/more articles that frequently add even more damaging information to the theory. Sometimes I get back a good refutal (apparenlty "refutal" this isn't a word - too bad) of the theory which is good because then I won't even share it with anyone else. I do have a sniff test for what I forward actually - it has to at least make sense based on the person(s) involved (personalities, etc...). I like using this person for this because they hate both Bush and Kerry.

[bush_is_wacko]

29. My guy doesn't like either of them much either, but he is a thuglican

through and through. I am testing his views though, I can see it in his responses. I actually think he is being sexually "brainwashed" by his repulsive "petroleum industry" fundie girlfriend. For Christ sake the guy went without for around ten years and as a woman I am well aware of how manipulative "sex" can be. She spouts her fundie beliefs off at me constantly by email (yes, she has infiltrated his email!) I can always tell when it is her or him sending the email from it's content but anyway, it seems rather hypocritical to me for her to spout her fundie crap at me when she is the one living in sin with a man. I have been married to the same man for 20 years and he says he was a virgin when we met. I have to admit I wasn't even at 17, but he has been my only sexual partner for well over twenty years now. We lived together for four years before we got married. It is just so odd how these people can't see that what they say doesn't jive with what they DO! And this woman is SERIOUSLY threatened by the awakening of her sexual slave apparently! BTW, The guy is my dad's age so I have no designs on him in that way and I am very committed to the husband I have. I could never handle an affair so I really can't figure out what she finds so threatening from me! she can hardly even bring herself to look me in the face most of the time though!

[Misunderestimator]

17. That's the spirit... guilty until proven innocent...

Not to belittle your point, which is a good one, the majority of people here (and that is a HUGE majority... being every one but ONE poster, one up from yesterday) that I have trusted and supported have proven to deserve that trust. I think it would be a mistake to approach everyone with suspicion because of one (or a few) rotten apple(s).

[Tigress DEM]

58. Trust is a good thing and a person must know how to follow before...

they can lead, but maybe there are really two points to this post.

A) Don't let someone else's fraudulant behavior make you feel less than as a person for trusting them.

B) Find the leadership capacity within yourself, even if you choose to follow.

[wildflower]

18. I agree, unless...

you're fawning over ME! :)

Kidding of course....What I believe is that every person has equal worth. No one is better or more deserving than anyone else. I try to help all people whenever I can.

And incidentally, this is, to me, the essence of liberal philosophy.

We care about people - all people. Not only rich people, or only those of a certain country, or religion, or gender, or race, or physical status.

(This might lead one to ask how I feel about conservatives. I completely disagree with them and have emotional reactions to the things they say and do. But I've had conservative loved ones in my life. And so I try to see what events in their lives and physiological makeup has led them to feel and act the way they do. Which isn't to say it's not hard sometimes.)

At any rate, I do my best not to denigrate any living being's value. And conversely, not to put one person, or a few people, above everyone else.

But I think I've digressed from your point. I don't think you're cynical. I think it's just common sense: be open to helping others, but be practical too.

-wildflower

[Solly Mack]

20. I only worship Pookie and Moby..and Moby's dead.

well, ok...I worship Stewie too.

[Nay]

23. I am as cynical as anybody, so no one gets my money or time

unless I do the legwork to find out if they are legitimate. That's why I did not know the 'voting expert' was a fraud, but it is also why I do not care that she was. She was someone posting on an anonymous board, for Chrissakes -- NOBODY should give any credence to any of us! We're just yakking, and this is not a physical neighborhood! Everyone needs to save their money and time (and most of their emotional energy, too) for the real-life people in front of them. Not typists on the internet.

The people who have been on here in the past who REALLY aroused my suspicions were the ones who pleaded dire poverty, they're getting thrown out of their shabby apts., can't afford food or a vehicle, help, help. . .and a month later they let slip that they were watching their satellite TV that night. . .BZZZZT! Wrong thing to say! Especially to someone like me, who was truly poor as a child and young adult. Once I was even jumped on for finally accosting such a person and pointing out that he/she was hardly poor,if he/she had satellite. . . and I was quite surprised that so many people were willing to defend persons who had JUST revealed that they were lying.

Along with the nice folks on DU, there are crooks, scammers, Repub operatives, Agent Mike, serial killers, Nigerian-letter writers, pedophiles, check kiters, the mentally ill, fantasy-prone adolescents, abusive spouses, and cat ladies with frozen cat corpses in their freezers. In other words, I don't know you and you don't know me. Unless we meet regularly and become friends and confidantes, I will NEVER know you and you will NEVER know me.

So let that be a lesson to all of us!

[H2O Man]

26. But, but, but ....

them froozen cat corpses are gonna thaw out, 'cause my electric got shut off, and it's freezing out, and if you could just loan me a few thousand dollars .... Sorry. Lost control for a second.

[Nay]

34. LOL H2O!!

[Riding this Donkey]

49. IMHO, I would never ask

anyone on a blog, or chat room for money because I would be afraid of what they would think of me. For example, they might think I was a sheister or a con. Because most of the time when I see it being done, I have those thoughts myself, like can I trust them. I don't buy the products either, especially if they are pushing it hard.

Like one girl on a blog I use to visit, kept posting about a scrap book she made and she would send to anybody, but could you send $15 to cover her costs. And she posted and posted and posted it, some people tried to shut her down, but others came to her defense. I really don't know if she was making a real contribution or not, and I guess some people thought it was great, but for me I couldn't tell and it made me uncomfortable so I stayed away from it..

Some people bought it and others were offended by her trying to sell that stuff on a blog.

I guess different strokes for different folks, right?

I always try to just trust my gut instinct, and that's the best advice I can give.

[Tigress DEM]

60. I agree, personally and if someone wants money...

shouldn't we be more into directing them to resources they can go to where we can give our money and know there will be at least a process where it is determined that these people are following legitimate means toward their goals?

I want to support the Fraud Buster Four in Ohio for instance and I'm thinking of going through BlackBoxVoting.org to do it because I'm convinced they are legitimate and will get my money to the intended place for the intended purpose.

[Padraig18]

24. Indeed we are.

It makes me want to gag, some times.

[Ladyhawk]

27. I am always questioning the motives of others.

Unfortunately, I didn't find out about the nasty nature of the "so-called expert in electronic voting" until after this election. But when DUers I respected started giving me information, I had no trouble accepting the facts.

I guess I've learned to be suspicious. After learning your fundy parents were wrong about pretty much everything, I think that's a pretty natural development. :)

I've had the recently-tombstoned person on "ignore" for the past couple of months after she started harassing me about a certain personal decision. Quite frankly, this person's interest smacked of fundamentalism--not the liberal Christianity that others here espouse, but dogmatic, "do it my way or you're screwed" theological ramblings. It had no effect on me because I am not religious. Even though I had this person on "ignore," I got a PM that I never bothered to read...how can you stop ignored persons from sending you PM's? I looked through options once, but my head was hurting at the time. Stupid migraines. :)

[Tigress DEM]

61. I don't "always" question the motives....

but then their motives and sincerity don't always mean that my money has to go there. I have to feel comfortable that the process is set up securely and efficiently so that I'm not wasting my money on some good idea that's mismanaged.

[Igel]

30. Very, very much so.

Bev, Arnebeck, Kerry, and many others have been various folks' "heroes"; people assume their hero's agenda is identical to their own, when it seldom is. The hero doesn't perform up to spec, and suddently he (or she) is dirt, scum, a loser. They're angels or devils, freedom loving patriotic progressives or Hitlerian Stalinists.

Cynicism isn't the answer, either. "Skepticism" is better, but still a bit wrong--because usually the problem is we don't take what they say in context. What's required isn't hero-worship or cynicism or even skepticism, just a realization that the people have their own agendas, and you can support them on the points you agree with and not on others.

[w13rd0]

37. That's something I've noticed...

...the "saint become a sinner" syndrome. Idolize someone, then when they step off the path someone has envisioned for them, they are pilloried. I'll cite no examples, but there are plenty of politicians that fit into that category. Love what Byrd said about the Iraq war, but the dude is an unrepentant homophobe. I'll applaud him for his stance on Iraq, but I'm not going to idolize him. Makes it easier to find politicians you CAN support if you don't give in to the desire to put them on a pedestal.

[starroute]

31. Trouble is so many of us are shy, geeky, introverts

(At least that was what came out in a recent "what were you like in high school" thread.)

We're great at playing around with ideas, but not so good at actually doing anything about them. And I think this is why we're so easily swept off our feet by the activist, can-do types who occasionally show up and propose to actually do something with our ideas.

It's the same reason that musicians get victimized by their managers, and that inventors tend to get squeezed out of their own companies once the enterpreneurs they called into help take over.

I don't have a good answer to this, but it goes a lot deeper than fawning over the occasional crooked "expert."

[Tigress DEM]

51. Well if the world can move a geek like Gates up....

Then we can take ourselves up the ladder in the DU too.

I think I'm a NEO Geek myself. Married a real Geek and it's geek by association I guess.

Wound up on a level one tech support help desk and I'm going by instinct mostly, not because I spent years thinking about or reading about computers.

I was a loner type, but not really a true loner either. I guess they sometimes call someone like me a social butterfly. I went from group to group and liked he different people for their uniqueness.

I sort of felt I should settle down and be in one group, but I never felt up to the politics of that.

I've always hated politics - and yet I love being a DEM. Is that bizarre?

[kiraboo]

32. Not me. I can't think of anybody I'd label as a hero these days.

And in fact it makes me nervous when somebody does.

[Tigress DEM]

53. There is the problem of putting people up on pedestals...

They tend to fall - even if they are well intentioned.

Most people wouldn't consider themselves heros, even when what they are doing is heroic, because it can get in the way of getting the job done.

Maybe the focus DOES need to be more on the deeds being done and not the person as being so much MORE than everyone else, just being willing to step up to the plate and get the job done.

[hippiechick]

33. YES. Waaaaaay too much hero worship.

In my more cyinical moments I actually believe DU has become the same type of "cult of personality" that exists on the other side of the aisle; ego-trippers, groupies, fawns, and wannabe's included.

The power is OURS.
There is no 'I' in DEMOCRACY.
It belongs to all of us, equally.

We all have unique and special talents that we bring not only to DU, but to our local organizing work as well.

We can't wait for a Messiah - we ARE the Messiah, each and every one of us.

[wildflower]

41. "There is no 'I' in democracy"...I like that. n/t

[w13rd0]

35. I steer clear of hero worship...

...maybe it's being a complete loser myself, but having run into enough "big names" Forest Gump style. Maybe it's being a "city kid". Maybe I'm just paranoid. But it extends across the board. Family, friends, celebrities, politicians. I try to stay realistic and pragmatic. Even in my advocacy for certain primary candidates, I always tried to stay discerning and recognize the humanity and the inevitable flaws of that condition, in myself and others.

Being skeptical isn't a bad thing. I've been told it's "lonely and sad", but I was skeptical of that analysis. ;)

[Tigress DEM]

54. If one WORSHIPS that is reserved for a higher power beyond man's feeble...

Scope of ability.

Worship is "reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object" and humans are human.

Still "to regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion" isn't always a bad thing.

I just think one needs to keep it in perspective and allow that the people we regard so highly are putting foot to pavement one in front of the other in the same manner as the rest of us. Mayhap they get up and DO this more often than most so their results are bound to be more visible.

[Corgigal]

36. I always thought this board

and it's people are just nice and give people the benefit of the doubt. However I don't part with my money or my time because I really don't know anyone here. I think its wonderful that so many people here do trust. It's so easy not to trust and also being a former NYC girl I find it very hard to trust anyone on line but I always find it refreshing that others can. So you can make a fool of yourself once in awhile, no biggie. You live and learn.

[Tigress DEM]

57. Hucksters will always pass among us....

It's good to be somewhat cautious and to think more of putting ourselves into this battle in some means than in throwing money at the few and the proud.

However, if someone lies to us and we believe the lie, it's still more of a shame for the liar than us. Being good, honest people ourselves we tend to start from that premise with others and that isn't a bad thing.

We're here because we want the world to be a better place enough to spend our time and even our money figuring out how best to get that accomplished. If sometimes we get screwed along the way, oh well.

Keeping alive our truth inspite of the lies is more important than feeling foolish once in awhile. Believing in the basic goodness of humankind and working to hold them accountable to living up to it is a higher goal and being a fool once in awhile is just collateral damage that we have to be willing to take for the team effort.

[Guaranteed]

38. LOL hardly. We don't get behind people enough, even.

At least the right people.

[troubleinwinter]

39. My hero!

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

40. That's not cynicism...

...that's skepticism. There's a big difference.

The people that you described who tell stories to suck people in are the cynical ones. Those that hold off from committing their precious time, brain-cycles, emotions and money until seeing corroborating evidence are merely skeptical... and that's a good thing.

I hate to cite this quote, but even he* is familiar with this:

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — {crickets} — shame on you. {crickets} Fool me — {crickets} — you can't get fooled again."
~ George W. Bush*, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. No, I think we can be quite the opposite at times. This is the

first year I've donated to any offshoot causes of the Dem Party, and I keep even those simple. Blue bracelets, DU of course etc... You're last line makes me smile. This election year I was very careful with my money. I sent all of it to the DFA while working for Kerry. Kerry wasn't worthy of my money,because I was not sure of him, but I did give him all my campaigning energy. :hi:

[janx]

46. I did the same thing!

LOL! :hi:

[Radical Activist]

50. Yes. Just post something less than glowing about Dean or Clark

and you will see plenty of evidence of hero worship.

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. Nope. Dean supporter....but he's not worthy of worship. Only MrG is

worthy of my worship. Nice post though. :eyes:

[Radical Activist]

55. Well, it's true

A lot of political figures develop a cult of personality, but Dean and Clark are the two most common on DU. The uniformity of what is said in defense for either person is what makes it that more odd. How many times do I get to see Clark's resume repeated over and over again?

[ScreamingMeemie]

56. In your mind perhaps. Not mine. Sorry. No pass in my book. I'll go

back to being "crazy" now. Did you know, that even though I support the DFA, my screen saver is not Howard Dean? Wow. The fear of this man is unbelievable here.

[Runcible Spoon]

63. oh hell no, at least not me!

I haven't been enthusiastic about about any political movement since Moveon...I'm very jaded now with all this selfish infighting...at this point I will put whatevet resources I have into getting the * Junta out and then maybe I will find a "hero" to worship. But I doubt it. I've gotten so used to "lesser of two evils" argument that I can't find a candidate to get excited about. And the controversy about these certain people you mention definitely doesn't help.