Could we PLEASE lift the stupid sanctions on Cuba?!?!?!?!?!

[simcha_6]

[mermaid]

1. Not As Long As Fidel Lives

we won't. It's fucking stupid, but that is just the way it is. Until Fidel kicks the bucket, expect to see those sanctions still in place.

[LostInAnomie]

3. When Fidel dies...

... the capitalist vultures are going to swarm that place like you wouldn't believe. The standard of living is going to go right into the toilet as the ex-pats move back to exploit.

[elehhhhna]

18. Don't the foreign hotel co.s own amost of the beachfront already?

[Egalitariat]

21. Define standard of living. How many people drown trying to

get out of that place every year?

[rhite5]

7. Agree! Castro led a REVOLUTION (gasp!) that was successful

Corporate America cannot allow such a success to stand and be respected. They have been determined ever since then to stop all other revolutionary movements by whatever subversive means all over Central and South Åmerica and the Carribean. The list is long and disgraceful.

Nevermind that Castro has done an amazing thing and has earned international respect for what he has accomplished in Education and Medicine in spite of the strangling sanctions.

[Ironpost]

8. Fidel is the only thing that keeps them independent

when he passes we will over run Cuba. trust me

[cire4]

2. I agree....They're outdated and stupid

I read now that Bush has begun a propaganda campaign in Europe in order to discourage foreign tourism to the country. The US is hell-bent on making sure that the entire island suffocates to death in order to force one man out of power.

Oh...and the embargo has nothing to do with human rights abuses. It is just retaliation for what Castro did 40 years ago (nationalize all US corporate owned property).

[simcha_6]

13. I'm doing a paper on that

Do you have a good source I could cite for that?

[Warpy]

4. It would make entirely too much sense

and both parties are terrified of the Miami Cubans, a group which did figure in the assassination of JFK in nearly every theory out there but the Warren Commission whitewash.

Castro will have to die, or the last Batista Cuban will have to die, before we do the sensible thing and lift sanctions.

[Stop_the_War]

5. I agree. The sanctions are wrong.

[Colorado Blue]

6. I hope so!!!

[Cleita]

9. Of course we could, but we won't until we truly

have a real democracy. Then we would fix a lot that is wrong with our country and our world. People think it's impossible and it's going to be very hard to do, but people like you foot by foot will do it. Don't give up.

[chlamor]

10. The Sanctions Will Remain

but Life finds a way. Go to www.communitysolution.org to see how the Cubans are teaching us all how to live in a low energy world. Life after oil. The Transformation will carry on even after Castro passes.

[two gun sid]

11. As long as the Cuban community in Miami.....

votes republican the sanctions will never be lifted. Clinton was working on some kind of normalization when Elian Gonzales became a cause for the RW fucks. Clinton took a beating and so did Gore in 2000 because of the incident.

[Cuban_Liberal]

20. Most of "the Cuban community in Miami" opposes the sanctions.

The vast majority of 'average Joe' Cuban-Americans oppose the sanctions. Don't assume that the loudmouths you see palling it up with the Republicans speak for the average Cuban-American, because they don't.

[two gun sid]

23. Good Deal. But, average Joe's aren't the ones driving the....

Voting Pattern bus. The Los Historico's turnout in large numbers and vote republican. Those loudmouths you speak of support the sanctions but they also deliver the votes to the GOP. In the end that is what keeps the sanctions in place.

As the older Cubanos die out it would appear that these loudmouths will lose their power to control US policy towards Castro. That was the only point I was trying to make. It was not an attack on Miami or Cuban-Americans.


On Edit: Go 'Canes

[Cuban_Liberal]

26. Actualy, they're no longer a solid Republican bloc, like they were once

As the older generaton dies off, Cuban-Americans as a bloc are trending more moderate. Cuban-Americans in the Miami/Metro Dade area are now largely 'ticket splitters', voting for both Repubs and Dems.

[two gun sid]

27. That is what I understand.

If you live near Calle Ocho please have a cafe con leche for me. I always loved having breakfast in Little Havana.

[porkrind]

12. It's stupid, but it won't go away.

Go to Noam Chomsky's website (chomsky.info), he explains it very well. Basically, Cuba is dangerous to the american establishment, because they are an example of successful rebellion against american imperialism. We can't have any bad examples, or the rest of the world might get ideas.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. What? And have Miami threatened by commies in '54 Packards?

Threatening America with Universal Health Care and free education for all? Not to mention that the beloved Dolphins would all have to give up steroids, grow beards, and smoke cigars.

[Stop_the_War]

15. Before Fidel Castro, Cuba was ruled by a fascist dictator named Batista

Batista was a pro-U.S. capitalist who illegally staged a coup d'etat in Cuba to become President. He was ousted out of power when Cubans led a revolution against him.

Now Cuba has the one of the world's greatest healthcare systems because of Castro, and its citizens are living long lives. Education is free at all levels, including university. The sanctions are really bad for Cuba and need to be lifted.

[simcha_6]

30. Of course, things aren't as rosy as that

While you get health care and education, I hear lots of Cubans live on 15$ a month, and there are chronic shortages of materials (Cuba Diaries or Havana Diaries, a book, said that, I think). Sanctions would help a lot. But then, so too might economic reform.

I don't care for Castro, or even Chavez (I have friends in Colombia, so I dislike FARC) but I have nothing exceptional against them, so I think we need to engage those countries we dislike as a nation (Cuba) and stop being so stubborn.

"Castro is an old man who can't admit that he made a mistake."

From that book above, Havana Diaries(?)

[Stop_the_War]

31. I don't think that book is accurate at all

[simcha_6]

48. Been there?

What do you think its like. Shortages were chronic in USSR. How do you know that Cuba is diferent?

[K-W]

51. Why would you assume they are the same?

They are two extremely different nations.

[simcha_6]

56. Here's why

Cuba built its economy Soviet style, so I assume problems in one are a reflection of problems in the other.

Cuba has always had a homogenous economy based mostly on cultivation of sugar and tobacco, and in Soviet days citrus fruits. It took everything else from the Soviet bloc in their uber-comparative advantage trade scheme.

There industry, when it existed, was owned by foreigners. When it was nationalized, the people familiar with the industry left, and the people who replaced them weren't always efficient or familiar with the equipment, so production kind of slumped in some areas.

Cuba operates under peacetime wartime protocol; Rations of all things. I don't know why'd they ration if there wasn't a shortage.

It's foolish to talk about Cuba as a paradise. High education levels are nice and universal health care is great, but it can only go so far in a country where most of the population lives on fifteen dollars a month. Also, if it were wonderful, why would so many people leave?

Finally, I have been given no reason to distrust the account of life in Cuba. Give me evidence proving the situation is different. I made my claim, and above is why I have that claim. Do you have a counter argument.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

[simcha_6]

58. Sorry, let me rephrase that

Ending the sanctions would help a lot.

[DaCheat]

16. No

That would make far too much sense for Republicans, have we learned nothing over the past 8 years.

[mitchtv]

17. Time also to repeal the Cuban Re adjustment act

wet foot dry foot- treat'm like we treat all the other immigrants. No more free greencards

[aneerkoinos]

19. No you can't

US has all the reasons in world to be very very very afraid of Cuba. For the simple reason that Cubans system is far superior to US, and that truth must under no circumstances allowed to realize it's full potential and to be learned by peoples under US hegemonic boot.

[Cuban_Liberal]

22. That's the biggest pile of steaming caca I've ever read at DU.

Have you ever BEEN to Cuba? Do you have family who lives under the Cuban system? I can already answer my own question, because if you had or did, you wouldn't make such a patanetly absurd statement.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

25. Oh, I shall make an argument.

Cuba has one of the worst human-rights records in the Western Hemisphere, if Amnesty International is to be believed (and I, for one, believe them). Care to take another swing at the ball?

[aneerkoinos]

29. Cut the bull

I don't think you have read any AI reports, otherwise you wouldn't make such claims.

Sure there are things to criticize, but to say that it's one of the worst records shows total lack of sense of proportion. Most importantly, to which AI does not pay attention to because of its strict apolitical impartiality, most causes of criticism against Cuba are directly linked to the continuous destabilation efforts by the big bad neighbour. That does not justify the possible overreactions by Cuban governement, but makes them understandable.

There is no comparison between Cuba and those US puppet regimes where paramilitaries are allowed (and encouradged by US) to run their murdorous amok in the interests of corporate oligarchy.

On the other hand, in the area of social rights Cuba beats most if not all countries in the Western Hemisphere, if Human Development Index is to be believed.

[Cuban_Liberal]

32. Oh, I've read plenty, my friend.

Cuba is not the 'socialist worker's paradise' so many naive leftists believe it is.

[Cuban_Liberal]

36. Amnesty International links

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/july2002/Cuba

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250291997

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/cub-summary-eng

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ENG-AMR250172003

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250401997

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/July2003/Cuba

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250271999

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250281997

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250022001

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250022002

The other 15 reports are here: http://www.amnesty.org/ . Just put 'Cuba' in the search box.

[aneerkoinos]

37. Dude

I can google, have googled, and actually read some of the stuff.

[Cuban_Liberal]

40. Then you should read it again.

If you read it, then you obviously didn't understand what it said, because Cuba is not some paradise.

[ngant17]

50. I know an ex-Marielito who went back to live in Cuba

When I visited Havana last year, I met a Cuban friend who told me of his time in USA. He took the opportunity to get out of Cuba for free via the Mariel boatlift when he was a young man back in 1980. He wasn't a criminal, just your basic opportunist who saw a easy way out. Well, he ended up working all over, in New Jersey and in Florida I think, but in the end he didn't find any streets that were paved with gold or even silver. He wisely came back to Cuba, I asked him if the Cuban gov. gave him a hard time for that, he said it was a little bit of a problem but now all that is over and he prefers the security in Cuba of having a roof over his head, yes he has the meager ration-card to live on, he can work for a little money, but he thinks it was the best decision for him personally.

I really laughed and enjoyed to hear his story because you don't hear about these kinds of things in the mass-media because all they want to do is project how terrible the living conditions are in Cuba. Well, all I can say is that the US had a chance to prove the wonders of its capitalist paridise to my Cuban friend Daniel but he has wised up about the real deal in this country of haves and have-nots. He's really a great guy to talk to, his English isn't too bad, really, and I stay in touch with all my Cuban friends as much as I can via internet, so no one can pull the wool over my eyes about the reality of the Cubans in their country.

[American Tragedy]

35. Yeah, locking up and executing protesters is nothing to worry about

Organizations like Amnesty International should just shut up about these 'oppressed political dissidents' and 'show trials' and 'fake elections'. How dare they talk about these inconvenient facts!

Seriously, I do think that the embargo should be lifted. It has absolutely no purpose and it gives the Cuban regime a constant excuse to continue operating as they do.

[Cuban_Liberal]

38. The loony left never let facts get in the way of ideological stances

Castro is anti-American, so he must therefore be good. See the logic (sic)?

[Mika]

44. Why has Mr Castro been trying to establish relations w/the US for 45+ yrs?

"Castro is anti-American, so he must therefore be good. See the logic (sic)?"



Doesn't make sense.. Mr Castro has been trying to establish relations w/the US for 45+ yrs. The Cuban government has been calling for the American government to lift the travel ban placed on Americans for decades so that Americans can travel and tour Cuba to see the place for themselves. These things aren't anti American.

In my experience, most Cubans (including Mr Castro) don't really regard the US's system of representational government as the best overall.. but, that doesn't make them anti American.


What is anti American is the repeated violations of the US Neutrality Act perpetrated by the Bushcrime Inc anti Cuba terra operators in Miami and Washington (with a wink and a nod and some $$ from the CIA etc).

Cuba has never attacked the US, but the US has attacked Cuba - directly and by proxy. That might tend to have Cubans (including Mr Castro) casting a cautious eye on the US government.

But still, Cubans (including Mr Castro) welcome Americans with open arms, and want Americans to be able to come and go to Cuba - freely.

-


click the pic

[aneerkoinos]

39. Hint

Google for "strawman argument" and "stupid".

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. Google 'reality' instead.

Cuba is not some worker's paradise. It is a toalitarian, Communist dictatorship.

:eyes:

[aneerkoinos]

42. yadda yadda

it's not paradise, it's not totalitarian, it's not communist, it's not dictatorship.

It's socialist (good), and it's authoritarian (bad).

[American Tragedy]

43. It's not a dictatorship?

Oh, hell, I'm a civil libertarian, I wouldn't understand. Nevermind.

[ngant17]

28. I beg to differ with cuban_liberal

I can call cuban-liberal's bluff.

I've visited Havana 2 times in the last 2 years, I am a WASP gringo who lives in central Florida with no family connections to Cuba. I do have leftwing Cuban-American friends who have family in Cuba and they would also seriously disagree with your statements.

My appreciation of Cuban socialism was not significantly altered when I visited, it was more or less exactly as I expected and I did come away with a greater appreciation of the Cuban people who have built one of the finest revolutions ever envisioned by anyone, and they are creating one of the most advanced and humane societies in human history, bar none, despite constant terrorist attacks from the superpower to the north.

my Cuba-related website for those interested is:

<http://www.geocities.com/ngant17>

I continue to maintain contacts with Cuban people in the gov. who want Americans to help them with perferred kinds of investments and business opportunities, but we know the problem isn't coming from any restrictive business regulations in Havana. It's all because of OFAC and Trading with Enemy laws and especially the rightwing fascist terrorist cells like CANF.

"US has all the reasons in world to be very very very afraid of Cuba. For the simple reason that Cubans system is far superior to US, and that truth must under no circumstances allowed to realize it's full potential and to be learned by peoples under US hegemonic boot."

I think this poster has hit the nail on the head. You don't have to travel to Cuba to know this, it just takes a little objectivity and common sense to figure that one out. And to quit reading the lies in the US corporate press which would help to clear up the brainwashing and psy-ops propaganda, too.

BTW I just say the new movie "The Motorcycle Dairies" and I loved it!

[Cuban_Liberal]

33. I don't believe the corporate press, I believe my family.

I have family in Cuba--- not dilletante tourist gadflies who fly in and the fly out. My family lives under this repressive regime every day of the world.

[ngant17]

45. not a dillante tourist gadfly either

First, you imply that North Americans who haven't been to Cuba are ignorant of the reality, then failing that, you imply that those yankee gringos who do manage to go there are simply 'tourist gadflys' who don't understand the reality of Cuba.

Prior to traveling to Havana twice, I also spend 3 weeks with in East Europe (Prague and Budapest) with a working class family. They are not as critical of the previous communist systems as you might imagine. I can discuss this in another topic but it's not relevant here. The point is that I do not consider myself a 'dilantee traveler'.

I do not know your specific situation, or that of your family, but there are 11 million people who have chosen to remain in Cuba and the vast majority do in fact support the Revolution and will defend it to their last drop of blood. You can make your contribution to Cuba and there is nothing stopping you from living there. Don't ever think that Cuba is going to imitate the society here in the US because no one is that stupid in Cuba.

[The Straight Story]

53. So are people taking boats TO cuba

or are mexicans trying to get in there as much as they are the US?

Just wondering, not much news of such things from the MSM here.

[ngant17]

61. in Cuba, the allocation of resources are more stricter

When you live on a self-contained system that is an island, there are much more restrictive conditions that you have to face to survive.

It wouldn't take much to wreck the ecology of Cuba under a market capitalist system. It's really fortunate that there a rational minds in charge of the Cuban economy and they aren't going to destroy the environment on the island to make a few people wealthy.

Emigration into Cuba is not practical or possible except under exceptional circumstances. No one really wants an influx of migration into Cuba because it isn't big enough to handle a hugh increase in the human population on the island.

[ryan_cats]

34. I never understood it

Why are the sanctions even in place? We do/did business with a lot of questionable countries but not Cuba? Trade with Saddam's Iraq, no problem. If we traded with them, tourism alone would increase the average Cuban's lifestyle, hell, they're driving 50's model cars still.
I think they're afraid trade would make Cuba's economy work.

[Mika]

46. There is limited US trade w/Cuba. Mostly big agribiz. Cuba must pay cash

All trade w/Cuba must be approved by the Treasury Dept O.F.A.C..

It is the smaller businesses and Joe/Jane average American who are banned by the US gov jackboots from freely visiting Cuba and/or trading with Cuban businesses.

Most Americans are under the mistaken impression (thanks to the US MSM) that the only cars in Cuba are the old American gas guzzlers - not so. Cuba's roads are growing ever more crowded with small & efficient French, Italian and Asian cars.

Tourists from all over the world (except US gov travel banned Americans) can rent these small cars and travel all over the island without reservations. There are thousands of private small hotels and Bed & Breakfasts all over the island. Tourists in Cuba who do travel without an itinerary can see the real Cuba, not just the tourist resort disneyland ritual.

Travellers can see that Cuba's economy does work (it is a socialist model, with resources directed to health care and education first and foremost). Granted, Cuba is poor. With US tourism dollars, Cuba's economy would be doing better, but nonetheless, it is working.

[K-W]

52. Because we think the america's belong to us

We continue to have sanctions because we dont tolerate nations on our continent not allowing us to control them.

[Catchawave]

47. I don't understand why we still trade with countries

that have far worse human rights violations? Viet Nam, China ? Not to mention countries that run the sweat shops whose products are stocked on Wal-Mart racks?

[Mika]

54. Maybe because Cuba doesn't run sweatshops.

Cuba is a signatory of the ILO and doesn't run sweatshops. All professions are represented by unions in Cuba.

China is not a signatory of the ILO and does run sweatshops. No professions are represented by unions in China.


www.ilo.org/


(Neolibs/neocons hate labor rights, legal labor representation and legal collective bargaining.)

[Catchawave]

59. Thanks Mika....

....you do know that Joe-Six-Pack America is not paying attention to ILO's. Just that Castro is EVIL. I think outsourcing and sweatshops are eviller, but that's just my opinion.

::::scratching head::::so MSM's won't 'splain this to Amerika's Lucys, hmmmmm....like ME. Again thanks.

[Melynn]

49. We trade with communist China

Why not trade with a country that is just 90 miles off our shore line?

[Canadian Socialist]

55. Sanctions?

We don't need not stinkin' sanctions. Cuban rum and cigars are the best! Plus their food is delish! Speaking as someone who has spent many a winter time in lovely Cuba.

[simcha_6]

57. I agree

What's it like there, anyway. School travel to Cuba isn't allowed, so I can't go until I'm taking trips independent of the university or until sanctions are lifted.

[DawgHouse]

60. I agree, the sanctions need to be lifted! n/t