BTK 'suspect' serial killer: 4 years USAF ('65-69) then he started KILLING

[diamond14]

Except for a four-year tour of duty in the Air Force from 1965 to 1969, he spent his entire life in the Wichita area, and has lived in Park City since 1971.

-------------------
"I don't believe the gentleman was well liked at all," said Mike Tavares, a former co-worker at ADT, where Rader worked from 1974 to 1989, when most of BTK's victims were killed.

-------------------
On his reunion questionnaire, Rader wrote that he attended Kansas Wesleyan and Butler County Community College before WSU. He also recalled his four years in the Air Force, including tours in Korea, Turkey, Greece and Okinawa.


http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/special_packages/btk/11004728.htm


Dennis Rader's booking photo at the Sedgwick County Jail.

[JanMichael]

1. Oh no! Not *all* Vets are golly gee whiz neato guys!

I don't know why I said that, maybe it's something in the water?

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Given that his USAF stint ended 36 years ago...

...and didn't include a tour of duty in Vietnam, I doubt his military service is relevent to his murder spree, IMO.

[diamond14]

3. wonder what he did in the USAF?.......it might lend some insights...

maybe he was one of those 'special' people that extracted information from Vietnam 'detainees' (POWs)....that scene was not much different from Iraq...same pogroms....same techniques used on innocent Vietnamese prisoners of war....







http://www.vvaw.org/commentary/?id=404

Vietnam Veterans Say Torture Policy Not an Aberration - Dates Back To Vietnam War
By VVAW National Office


Vietnam Veterans Say Torture Policy Not an Aberration - Dates Back To Vietnam War

Former Military Intelligence Officer available for interviews

For Immediate Release
May 26, 2004
More Information,please call:
DaveCurry 314-516-5042
Barry Romo 773-276-4189

-snips-


As the scandal of abuse and torture of Iraqi prisoners continues to intensify, the national organization Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) calls on policy makers to hold the real decision makers responsible for these crimes rather than scapegoating the individual GI's.

VVAW has documented the torture and abuse of prisoners dating back to the Vietnam War and has seen how the military is constructed to confuse and instruct individual soldiers to conduct these horrendous actions.

While many have expressed surprise at these recent revelations of torture, VVAW members have witnessed the American military's systematic pattern of prisoner mistreatment since the Vietnam War. Of the 109 Vietnam Veterans who testified at the Winter Soldier Investigations in January 1971, more than a third (39) testified to observing and having first-hand knowledge of the mistreatment of prisoners of war. Incidents described in detail included beating of prisoners, throwing prisoners from helicopters, requiring POW's to kneel beside piles of dead comrades sometimes for hours, attaching electric wires to body parts, interrogation with attack dogs, interrogation with snakes, water torture, and burning skin with heated pieces of medal. Even back then some graphic evidence was available in photos and slides of specific incidents.

The accused enlisted personnel at Abu Ghraib say that their actions were directed by Military Intelligence (MI) agents. While GI's were able to identify the MI agents in selected photographs of abuses in Abu Ghraib, the accused enlisted personnel may not be able to identify agents efficiently enough to build their legal cases. GI's were often unable to report whether the MI agents guiding them were military personnel or private contractors. VVAW members know that the vagueness in the identity of the MI agents is intentional.

VVAW National Staff member and former military intelligence officer Dave Curry says, "Military intelligence practice in the field involves layers of illusion and deceit. Ostensibly the layers of identity protect intelligence operations from the enemy. At the same time, these levels of identity fool ordinary GI's and make it difficult for them to know who has done what or who has asked them to do what. GI's may assume that they are working with a Military Intelligence civilian when they are in fact dealing with a regular army officer or enlisted man or woman. Such a set up can leave the GI with all of the blame and no evidence who these MI contractors were."

[Blue Wally]

4. Prithee tell

How many of the enemy the Air Farce would ever come to capture or detain? Most EPW interrogators are Army and they are a very small part of the Army. The likelihood that this guy worked in anything other than aircraft maintenance or admin/logistics support is pretty damn small.

[diamond14]

7. we should wait to find out what this guy did in the USAF, not leap

to unfounded conclusions....

at this point in the BTK serial killer arrest and booking....there are ONLY little bits coming out about his military service (1965-69)....the suspect wrote that he was stationed in a LOT of overseas places, and we have NO IDEA if the suspect was telling the TRUTH or living in a LIE.....


more will come out....but for now, I am just posted what has been revealed about this 'suspects' life....

[rzemanfl]

6. Right. It was his need to try out all the knots he learned in the

Scouts.

[diamond14]

9. the 'suspect' was on the list for years because of a POEM he learned

during a local University class, which was also where one of the murders took place...so don't ignore any probable connection to anything that a serial killer does or thinks...

it would be more likely that this 'suspect' learned to tie knots on a farm, or in the military, BEFORE he started teaching boy scouts about knots....

and since the 'suspect' was a BIND, TORTURE and KILL guy....the KNOTS were certainly of interest to investigators....the same KNOTS will likely be found all over, on his boat, in his work on PARKs, in teaching boy scouts, etc.....KNOTS are a very important link here...

[ultraist]

22. In the profile, prior to his arrest, they highlighted probable military

I read a profile written years ago about him that noted he likely had military experience due to the torture techniques he used on his victims.

This is not to say, his military experience made him into a serial killer, the guy is a sociopath, but that it did have an influence on him. This may have been the first place he acted out his sicko fantasies.

EDIT TO ADD:

SOCIOPATHY IS GENETIC. IT IS NOT A CONDITION CREATED BY ENVIRONMENT.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. Isn't eveybody that joins the military

except for medical people who aren't allowed to carry arms, taught how to kill?

[tx_dem41]

12. And, thus obviously a serial killer just waiting to strike.

:eyes:

[diamond14]

15. yes...that's the purpose of OUR military....they KILL in our name...

while MOST Americans just watch the KILLING on TV....OUR military is American KILLING-by-proxy....


but when those military people get HOME to America...just like Vietnam....you'll find that they still react to problems in the SAME WAY they were trained....to KILL....be it their spouses on military bases, going POSTAL in post offices all over America, SNIPING at civilians in the DC Metro Area....BLOWING UP a Federal Building in Oklahoma City....


it's all the same...the military is TRAINED to use VIOLENCE to solve problems...KILLING is what they know....

[tx_dem41]

16. Do you people really know anyone in the military?

Just asking.

[diamond14]

23. My nephew is in Iraq right now, my cousin was KILLED in Vietnam...

my Father and most of my uncles served in WWII, my younger uncle served TWO tours in Korea......

kind of a nasty suggestion that DUers don't KNOW any military people...and BTW, living one miles away and working at the pentagoon....


it's well KNOWN that OUR Military KILLS people...that's the whole purpose....

[tx_dem41]

26. Since you have that military background, you must realize

then that most military don't really train for combat, but are involved in support, maintenance, surveillance, etc.

[diamond14]

34. what I realize: the KILLING machine would end, if 'support' stopped

those who 'support' the KILLING machine by 'maintenance, surveilance, etc.' cannot ever wash the "blood of innocents" off their dirty hands....


"The bombs in Vietnam explode at home; they destroy the hopes and possibilities for a decent America." Martin Luther King, 1967

[tx_dem41]

36. Funny, I know some friends that never had any idea that

what they've been doing for 20 years (patrolling the coast of the East U.S.) is killing.

BTW, unless you're a tax dodger, you're hands are awash in blood.

[ultraist]

27. NO! LOL! I don't.

:hi:

But obviously MOST military people are NOT sociopaths. Sociopaths are born that way, they are not created by their environment. It's genetic and has been proven to be. They have examined the brains of many sociopaths and found distinct differences.

The discussion of the adverse effects the military training and combat experience can have, is a totally different one than discussing a sociopath.

These two issues shouldn't be confounded.

[GreenArrow]

46. irrelevant

.

[tx_dem41]

49. Quite relevant when you are discussing their training....

I guess a better question on my part could have been "Do you know anything about military training"?

[GreenArrow]

57. better question,

yes.

[tx_dem41]

5. Is there a point to this post? n/t

[Padraig18]

8. And probably ate at McDonald's, too.

Are we suposed to conclude that there's some sort of a connection there, too?

:wtf::eyes::tinfoilhat:

[diamond14]

13. actually, the 'suspect' worked in the IGA Meat Department......and

probably learned some techniques there, and mcDonalds wasn't even there during this guy's childhood, unlike all you young people here...ignoring all the OBVIOUS factors, will lead you to Kansas...where people are SHOCKED and claiming that this was just a NORMAL GUY....keep your eyes CLOSED and pray...that'll make it all better.....VIOLENCE from our military is well-documented, that's what they are trained for...


http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/special_packages/btk/11004728.htm

-snips-

"Rader worked in the meat department for Leeker's IGA in Park City and was an assembler at Coleman Co. from 1971 to 1973."


He was very bright, good in school, nice to everybody, nice smile, a great person. I just can't believe it."


He is married, has two children, is active in the Boy Scouts and is president of the church council at Christ Lutheran Church near Heights High.


He is efficient, nice, friendly, a regular guy, others said.

[Padraig18]

19. What a total crock of horseshit.

The tens of millions of veterans who are NOT serial killers or violent people in their day-to-day lives would disagree with your gratuitous generalization that "...VIOLENCE from our military is well-documented, that's what they are trained for....".

:eyes:

[SmartBomb]

10. I think this thread is running the wrong way as fast as it can. n/t

[Stirk]

14. C'mon- our military is enormous. Half the people I know are vets.

And this guy was in the freaking Air Force, for crying out loud. That's hardly the Rambo Training Center.

[diamond14]

18. my Father KILLED in WWII, US Army Air Corp...he never got over it

the VIOLENCE is very extreme from the Air Force, DROPPING BOMBS ON WOMEN, CHILDREN, OLD MEN...incinerating them....pulverizing them...it's HUGE VIOLENCE from the air...


my Father never got over it...he was a young man, drafted into WWII, and he piloted a large bombing airplane....he had NIGHTMARES and heard the screams of those he killed for all the rest of his life...he went to church all the time, gave 10% of his income to the church, pleaded to God to forgive him for all the VIOLENCE, for all the KILLING....

[Stirk]

21. Could you possibly be a little more maudlin?

I have several family members in the Air Force, and I was in myself. Odds are that this guy was some kind of aircraft mechanic or a typist. Besides- he wasn't even in the service during Vietnam.

This is nothing but silly, conspiratorial hysterics.

[diamond14]

29. at least my Father had a conscience...and felt guilt over KILLING

some people who KILL in the military, dropping BOMBS on innocents, never feel any guilt at all....and the community around them cheers the KILLING with monuments, awards, medals....and refuses to look at the VIOLENCE...


sOOOOO...just KILL them...no Weapons of Mass Destruction, but KILL KILL KILL...over 100,000 civilians (old men, women, children) have been massacred in Iraq...many by Air Force BOMBS from the air...they can't even defend themselves because they have no air force....shame

[Stirk]

51. I'll take that as a "yes".

[tx_dem41]

17. This is turning into an "anti-troops" post, that the majority of DUers...

have spent the last 24 hours claiming never exists.

[diamond14]

20. I disagree. you'll never stop VIOLENCE by turning your eyes away

and pretending it doesn't exist....


I come from a BIG Military Family...my Father in WWII and 4 of my uncles, my Uncle in Korea, my cousin was KILLED in Vietnam, my nephew is serving in the Marines in Iraq....


there is NOTHING ant-troop about these posts...it is only realistic to look at the 'suspects' military service, which certainly affected his life, just like any other Veteran's service....


seems like a 'vetwife' slam to me.....

[tx_dem41]

24. Nice personal attack....

McCarthy would be proud.

Notice I said "turning into", I wasn't even addressing your OP.

But, feel free to read out of context and sling mud some more.

[benburch]

33. Not a vetwife slam...

But you are providing ALL the aid and comfort the Freepers need to believe her.

I think you seriously need to consider your own motives.

[benburch]

25. Ahem...

I think this has ZERO relevance to the case at hand.

If you joined the Air Force when he did, you usually did so because you were trying to avoid ground combat in Vietnam.

[benburch]

28. And also...

This is a not-too-subtle attempt to paint all military people as murderers.

I think we had somebody here have a major blowup over this issue very recently, and you are just feeding into that misperception of DU, and I cannot think innocently.

Do you know that ALL people now in the service have had their service dates extended to 2030? It is SLAVERY now. Some of the people now deployed to Iraq had been out of the service and in civilian retirement for YEARS. Their service obligations were done, until The Grinning Killer in the White House decided to change the rules and kidnap them to avoid a politically unpopular draft in an election year. America's Military are Dubya's victims every bit as much as the Iraqis are, and some are starting to realize this. I firmly believe we will see an insurrection in the ranks in coming months.

[benburch]

30. Additionally...

My *father* was USAF in the Korean War years. He was a jet engine mechanic on F-86s. I think he spent a total of a week in rifle drills. This hardly made him a "trained killer."

[diamond14]

58. hello, benburch...did you realize that you are replying to yourself?

there is something strange about responding to YOURSELF....ever wonder about that? Usually, others respond to your post, but rarely do people talk to themselves.....

[ultraist]

32. Sociopathy is genetic & physiological but environment does play a role

He was born a sociopath, but environmental influences, such as military experience have affected this guy.

Regardless, he would have killed had he been in the military or not. He may have sought out the military so he could have a theatre to kill in and/or he may have learn some tricks there, but the military DID NOT MAKE HIM INTO A SOCIOPATH.

http://www.bbsonline.org/Preprints/OldArchive/bbs.mealey.html
THE SOCIOBIOLOGY OF SOCIOPATHY: AN INTEGRATED EVOLUTIONARY MODEL
Linda Mealey
Department of Psychology
College of St. Benedict
St. Joseph, MN 56374

Abstract
Sociopaths are "outstanding" members of society in two senses: politically, they command attention because of the inordinate amount of crime they commit, and psychologically, they elicit fascination because most of us cannot fathom the cold, detached way they repeatedly harm and manipulate others. Proximate explanations from behavior genetics, child development, personality theory, learning theory, and social psychology describe a complex interaction of genetic and physiological risk factors with demographic and micro-environmental variables that predispose a portion of the population to chronic antisocial behavior. Recent evolutionary and game theoretic models have tried to present an ultimate explanation of sociopathy as the expression of a frequency-dependent life history strategy which is selected, in dynamic equilibrium, in response to certain varying environmental circumstances. This target article tries to integrate the proximate, developmental models with the ultimate, evolutionary ones. Two developmentally different etiologies of sociopathy emerge from two different evolutionary mechanisms. Social strategies for minimizing the incidence of sociopathic behavior in modern society should consider the two different etiologies and the factors which contribute to them.

Sociopaths, who comprise only 3-4% of the male population and less than 1% of the female population (Strauss & Lahey 1984, Davison and Neale 1994, Robins, Tipp & Przybeck 1991), are thought to account for approximately 20% of the United States' prison population (Hare 1993) and between 33% and 80% of the population of chronic criminal offenders (Mednick, Kirkegaard-Sorensen, Hutchings, Knop, Rosenberg & Schulsinger 1977, Hare 1980, Harpending & Sobus 1987). Furthermore, whereas the "typical" U.S. burglar is estimated to have committed a median five crimes per year before being apprehended, chronic offenders- those most likely to be sociopaths- report committing upward of fifty crimes per annum and sometimes as many as two or three hundred (Blumstein & Cohen 1987). Collectively, these individuals are thought to account for over 50% of all crimes in the U.S. (Loeber 1982; Mednick, Gabrielli & Hutchings 1987, Hare 1993).

Whether criminal or not, sociopaths typically exhibit what is generally considered to be irresponsible and unreliable behavior; their attributes include egocentrism, an inability to form lasting personal commitments and a marked degree of impulsivity. Underlying a superficial veneer of sociability and charm, sociopaths are characterized by a deficit of the social emotions (love, shame, guilt, empathy, and remorse). On the other hand, they are not intellectually handicapped, and are often able to deceive and manipulate others through elaborate scams and ruses including fraud, bigamy, embezzlement, and other crimes which rely on the trust and cooperation of others. The sociopath is "aware of the discrepancy between his behavior and societal expectations, but he seems to be neither guided by the possibility of such a discrepancy, nor disturbed by its occurrence" (Widom 1976a, p 614). This cold- hearted and selfish approach to human interaction at one time garnered for sociopathy the moniker "moral insanity" (McCord 1983, Davison & Neale 1990).

[benburch]

40. But have you ever had USAF Basic described to you?

It does not turn you into a soldier!

Most Air Force personnel would be more dangerous to themselves with a weapon than to their targets.

[Astrochimp]

31. well, we KNOW.........

ALL ex-air force are serial killers.............

IF you had a point,other than sounding like an idiot,. screw it, in honor of Johnny X, I bring the Poe

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow-
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

[ultraist]

35. "Is but a dream within a dream."

One of may favorite poems!


But a dream within a dream

[diamond14]

39. true....and here's poem for you too....bring on Carl Sandburg, 1916

"READY TO KILL"

TEN minutes now, I have been looking at this.
I have gone by here before and wondered about it.
This is a bronze memorial of a famous general
Riding horseback with a flag and a sword and a revolver on him.

I want to smash the whole thing into a pile of junk
to be hauled to the scrap yard.
I put it straight to you.
After the farmer, the miner, the shop man, the factory hand,
the fireman and the teamster,
Have all been remembered with bronze memorials,
Shaping them on the job of getting all of us
Something to eat and something to wear,

When they stack a few silhouettes
Against the sky
Here in the park,
And show the real huskies that are doing the work of the world,
and feeding people instead of BUTCHERING THEM,
Then maybe I will stand here
And look easy at this general of the army
holding a flag in the air,
And riding like hell on horseback
READY TO KILL ANYONE WHO GETS IN HIS WAY,
READY TO RUN THE RED BLOOD AND SLUSH THE BOWELS OF MEN
ALL OVER THE SWEET NEW GRASS OF THE PRAIRIE.

Carl Sandburg, 1916


Fallujah, after the USAF pulverized it....

[tx_dem41]

42. Never let anyone ever say again, that there has never been an

"anti-troop" post on DU. Thanks for clearing that up, Diamond14.

[diamond14]

50. keep your eyes SHUT, serial KILLING in Fallujah by the USAF

with 'support' from LOTS of United States bomb manufacturing assembly line people, transport people, loading people, logistics people, American taxpayers, etc. etc. etc.......

serial KILLING....some Air Force people (like my Father, who bombed Germany in WWII as a pilot for the U.S. Army Air Corp) never get over this carnage....some feel no guilt, psychopaths....some help the carnage and claim they were NOT involved....some sit on their couches and vicariously enjoy it on their TVs, never getting up to PROTEST the carnage, complicit in their silence....



a LOT of USAF people and their 'SUPPORT' people got awards, medals, recognition for this SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENTS.....however, I believe, that like my Father, a few will have a conscience and be ashamed of this....

[tx_dem41]

52. We are sooo far afield from your original post which implied that ...

membership in the military lead to serial killing. I'm glad you're finally on a topic that actually matters and is based on some fact. Glad to see you back from the brink.

[diamond14]

55. implied? nothing in my original post implied 'military lead to serial

KILLING'.....go read my original post again....and I wonder WHY delude yourself?


perhaps something is creating the DELUSION for you.....?


something that causes attacks upon MILITARY FAMILY members, like me?


some reason to keep your eyes CLOSED about VIOLENCE?

[tx_dem41]

59. I would say your title implied that....and I'm not the only one on this..

thread that has felt that. And, you aren't the only military family on DU, so please spare me the self-righteous anger.

If you want to be productive and use your energy on speaking out against actual, proven military violence such as that in Fallujah, I will proudly stand by your side. Why you want to waste such potential energy on this case, I have no idea.

[benburch]

45. War is ugly, brutal, and base.

No question.

But would you rather we had no military when the thugs next door (no I don't literally mean next door) decide they want to kill us and take our land for themselves?

Hitler would have done what he did even if the USA had totally disarmed after WW-I, the only difference would be that he would have succeeded.

Or, would you rather have had the Holocaust completed?

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. First off, how do you know "and then he started killing..." Second off,

what does it matter? He killed. Period.

[bettyellen]

38. he started killing in his late 20's just like most psychopathic men do.

[RetroLounge]

41. This. Post. Is. Bullshit.

:eyes:

RL

[benburch]

43. AMEN. nt

[kk897]

44. some military personnel have become killers. some have committed

suicide. Does anyone know if the figures for such acts are greater in the military than in the general population? I did read somewhere recently that the rash of suicides of troops in Iraq is a little greater than in the general population.

Here in Columbus, the guy who shot up the nightclub, killing four guys and the guitarist "Dimebag" (wasn't a fan, can't remember his whole name) a couple of months ago was in the military. They'd discharged him because of some sort of erratic behavior, undescribed to the press. Turns out he was a paranoid schizophrenic. My concern is that the services aren't really looking after the psycholgical well-being of those in their charge, and that might lead to some grave consequences.

Before Iraq, I went around telling everyone I knew that in a few years we were going to have a generation of young men afflicted with PTSD and that it would be a terrible thing for the entire nation. The other day I read an article saying that the military wasn't prepared to handle that eventuality. Heck, if I thought of it before the war, surely they could have thought of it.

Whether or not being in the military actually causes such harmful behavior, it seems to me that the military isn't doing too good a job at *preventing* such behavior, much less treating psychological problems that are less extreme. Sounds to me that a lot of the troops can't even get the physical care they need. On top of that, the military uses weapons that are harmful to health in the long term, for those handling the weaponry and for those unfortunates on the receiving end. I don't know, but it seems like such conditions might at least exacerbate any underlying emotional problems.

It's so sad. And it always bothers me when the media (or people I know) are suprised by such things as rampant PTSD. What is it people think war does?

Sorry, it's a bit off topic since it's only tangentally related to BTK, but for me, the military connection is somewhat significant.

[benburch]

47. If I were stuck in Iraq now, suicide would be an option I'd consider...

Iraq is an abuse of the US Military. It was not a declared war, nor was it an action we were bound to by treaty, nor was it in rapid response to a real and present danger.

It was quite simply a commercial enterprise for the Grinning Killer in the White House.

He needs to be made to pay for this. I want to see him in an orange jumpsuit cleaning the latrines in Ft. Levenworth for the rest of his days.

[diamond14]

53. the DC sniper was a Gulf War Veteran....drove around KILLING people

as they sat on a bench, walked out to a parking lot after shopping or eating, waiting for a bus, everywhere SHOOTING and KILLING...terrorizing this whole area....the DC sniper learned to be an expert marksman in the U.S MILITARY...that's where he learned how to KILL....


Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing was done by a military explosives expert VETERAN.....


after Vietnam...LOTS of Post Offices in the United States had Vietnam Veterans shooting the place up....and still going on....Denver, Colorado, Royal Oak, Michigan and others happened many years after the Vietnam War ended in 1975, but OUR Veterans still need mental health care that is NON-existant under bush*.....

[tx_dem41]

54. Your point on the lack of mental health care for veterans is...

apt. The implication that only veterans are serial killers is just not based in fact.

[diamond14]

56. more of your "implications"......non-reality based 'implications'.....

there's something DELUSIONAL about your remarks....OR vetwife?

twist my posts just a 'little' bit, and then SCREAM about that I 'IMPLY' and some 'IMPLICATION"....


I deal in REALITY....but most Americans keep your eyes closed about the VIOLENCE in OUR Military....and pray with george....



Fallujah is fine.....go back to sleep...

[tx_dem41]

60. Again with the personal attacks...tsk, tsk.

I think that's a bad thing to do, isn't it?

[Bunny]

48. This is a crock of shit. Others have called it here, and I'm

joining them. Bullshit.

[Mutley]

61. this guy is one sick bastard

sick sick sick

[Moderator]

62. Locking

This thread is flamebait.