Why ARE they so insistent on pushing privatization of social security?

[cornermouse]

I'm sure there's more than one reason, but I'm starting to wonder whether its about bringing in more money through sale of stocks or whether its more about not losing money. Are they just going to print up new paper stocks or are they going to sell their stocks to us, pull their money out, and invest it somewhere else? For that matter, why do they insist on putting it into the stock market?

If you believe everyone is going to win and no one is going to lose, I want to tell you about a bridge that I have for sale.

:eyes:

[warrior1]

1. to steal it

like they did with our surplus. Basically what bush and his cronies did is shift this to his friends.

[Pepperbelly]

11. We have a winner ....

Do you want the Teddy Bear or the SquareBob for your marksmanship?

Hell, take both of them.

[Canuckistanian]

43. Squarebob? He's with the enemy....

[spanone]

20. Yep, follow the money.

Remember the missing $9,000,000,000.00 Nine Billion?

[Just Me]

28. Never forget the misplaced $2.3 TRILLION down the DoD black hole. n/t

[China_cat]

45. I think it's too late already

They've already taken the money and are now trying to cover it up.

[sarcasmo]

2. So they don't have to pay all the money back they borrowed from SS for the

recent WARS.

[bpilgrim]

5. and to inject a steady stream of cash into WALL STREET

where all their buds hang

peace

[ClassWarrior]

3. Corporations over people. It's that simple.

NGU.

[rzemanfl]

4. Why do you question our leader? God told him to smite Social

Security and he will. Why do you hate freedom?

[Coastie for Truth]

6. Political Fundamentalism of the GOP Flavor

--FDR is their anti-Christ and Devil Incarnate, and they want to exorcise all remnants of the New Deal from the Body Politic.

It is not about economics, it is only secondarily about a gift to the Financial Services industry. It is all about purging all remnants of the New Deal from the Body Politic.

[Redneck Socialist]

9. There ya go

its all about destroying social security and dismantling the remnants of the New Deal.

Don't worry the market place will take care of everything. Fundamentalism, be it economic or religious, is all about faith. Piratizing Social Security is faith based economics.

[illflem]

16. LOL

nothing like a good smiting to get the ball rolling

[Fovea]

7. To make their brokers/donors fabulously rich

to attempt to heal their damage to the economy, prop up the dollar against global greenback dumping, and fund additional resource/ideology wars on the backs of the Vietnam war generation.


Any questions?

[sandnsea]

8. To destroy FDR social programs

The socialist domino theory, topple SS and the rest will follow. They're working on others as well, the BPA in the northwest for example.

[Mr_Spock]

10. They are willing to create civil unrest just to prove a point?

Just to "undo" Democratic initiatives is not a good reason to destroy the fabric of our country. Do they want to have a civil war on their hands?

[sandnsea]

29. They don't think it will

They launched a war based on lies. I never thought they'd get away with that, but they did. SS ought to be easy in comparison. They've been after SS since the day it was enacted, if they don't win now, they'll just try again a few years down the road.

Did you not read this memo?

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_01_02.php

"The memo bluntly states Social Security "will be one of the most important conservative undertakings of modern times." Further, that there "is going to be a monumental clash of ideas" and that "At the end of the day, we want to promote both an ownership society and advance the idea of limited government." Finally, for anybody who has followed the Republican fight against social security, it is clear dismantling the program is what they mean when they say "For the first time in six decades, the Social Security battle is one we can win -- and in doing so, we can help transform the political and philosophical landscape of the country."

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=371

[Mr_Spock]

41. "Ownership society" = death and destruction during economic downturn

...which is bound to happen the way these nit-wits are bankrupting our country. Why are they trying to destroy our country?

[Lexingtonian]

12. The average small investor is either timid or foolish

The timid ones will simply provide massive market capital to buffet the effects of the big boys slashing money out of companies. The foolish ones will provide profits.

Forcing ~100 million more people to throw their money into unsafer stocks dealings, that's the net result.

It's crude, it's stupid, it's Third World-ish. But they have all kinds of people who live in mental and material Third World conditions and defensive of them, under some sort of silly notion of virtue accruing by being uncreative and conformist and thieving...it's time to take advantage of them.

The Republicans' historical job is to break and exploit everything of the WW2/Cold War/Industrial Age arrangements of the United States that isn't sound. Burn the quaint and dreary and dysfunctional/obsolete and segregated village down to its foundations. The Democrats' historical job is to make sure the foundations are left standing- and to build something better on top of them.

[alfredo]

13. Wall Street is a casino

The house always wins.

[Fescue4u]

23. Yup..

except when you do own stocks you are the house.

Lets not confuse stealing social security with the stock market.

Investing wisely, diversely and overtime has never in history been a losing proposition.

Now if you want to talk about options, derivitivs junk bonds, penney stocks and day trading then yup...thats definitely a casino.

[alfredo]

32. We don't know what bush will do to the regulation of

Wall Street if his scheme passes. With deregulation and tort reform, investors wouldn't stand a chance against the Ken Lay's.

As it is now, you do have control over where your money goes, and you have the ability to dump your stock if you lose confidence in a stock. I did that with Lucent and Monsanto.
Under bush's plan will you be able to single out a stock to buy or sell?

Let's face it, a company that has been generous to bush and the GOP is going to stand a better chance to be part of this guaranteed revenue stream. Do you think they will want Apple or Costco taking part in this?

[Fescue4u]

33. My concerns are different

There have always been Ken Lays and I suspect that there always will be.

But that is where diversification comes into play and protects you from the occasional corrupt investment.

My concern is that the feds will now effectively nationalize many if not most companys.

You asked "Do you think they will want Apple or Costco taking part in this?"

My answer is absolutely.

Once the feds control via stock ownership a large portion, of Apple or Costco, they have effectively nationalized those companys.

Then apple or costco do the bidding of the Federal goverment, and by extension those who control the federal government.

While its SORT of true that individual S.S. investors own those shares, I seriously doubt that individuals will control the voting power of those shares...that will be reserved for those in power.

Taken to its extreme, and (possibly inevitable) end, the government will eventually nationalize all US corporations.

That didnt work out to well for Communist Russia, and it won't work for us either.

[alfredo]

39. That's it. they can use inclusion into the funds and the

steady stream of revenue as a tool of control. You gave money to Tom DeLay's opponent last cycle, you will not be included in our C fund.

[Kber]

52. That's a really interesting take.

I'm going to have to chew on that a bit.

Maybe you should start a thread with that theme?

[China_cat]

48. All that would be good advice...

Investing wisely, diversely and overtime has never in history been a losing proposition.

This is true...IF YOU ARE ALLOWED TO TAKE CONTROL of your own account.

But the plan is NOT to allow the person whose name and SS# goes with the account any access at all. BUSH APPOINTEES will invest the money and control what happens. This is why they are so insistent on the name change from 'private' to PERSONAL. You aren't going to be allowed to have anything to do with 'your' account.

And this is something we need to keep reminding people of.

[Fescue4u]

54. absolutely agree

In fact I wrote a post above that echo much of what you wrote.

Above I was just addressing the wallstreet=casino line of thought alone.

I fear that having SS funds directed to wallstreet will effectively nationalize wallstreet and the companys that are traded on it.

[applegrove]

14. To make sure the government is totally bankrupt - then the corporations

are 50 of the biggest economies in the World and nobody (like USA government) is big enough or strong enough to take them on.

[GreenArrow]

15. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

To take it from you, and give it to themselves. To keep you in debt and helpless, with the wolf always just outside the door.

"Pay no attention to that yoke around your neck."

[Fescue4u]

17. Im not against choice in retirement

Frankly I don't trust Bush with my retirement money.

But I cant support that plan that Bush has proposed either.

Essentially we are screwed....Either we trust Bush with our money, or we trust the alternatives that Bush gives us with out money.

[Cleita]

18. It's a big fat chunk of payroll taxes that they haven't got their

greedy hands on yet. They are so greedy, they can't wait for the old people to spend it back into the economy. So they have to figure out a way to steal it before the workers paying into it retire.

[Trillo]

19. The U.S. is nearly bankrupt? nt

[proud patriot]

21. Because they have bankrupted our Treasury

and Social Security is about that's left to plunder ...

country club conservative prirates are just building
their booty .

[CrispyQ]

22. Check out stage 9 in this article

http://fixco1.com/bushplan.html

[Toucano]

24. Piratization is about profit.

The broker fees represent enormous income potential for the financial sector.

Wall Street is salivating at the prospect of collecting these fees from every worker and retiree in the US.

[B Calm]

25. Seriously! They’re salivating over the possibilities

of the millions of desperate old people to exploit for cheap labor.

[Itsthetruth]

26. Perhaps This?

Perhaps to soften us up to accept price indexing or some other "reform" attack as an acceptable "compromise" to "protect" social security?

[EVDebs]

27. Desparately seeking a legacy for the 'base' beyond Quagmire

in Iraq...? Possibly ? Q.E.D.

[Just Me]

30. Corporacrats HATE a government "for the people".

The corporacrats want a government all to themselves,...with the people serving the corporacrats' interests.

[BoristheBewildered]

31. Defunding us, paying back contributors, Kenny needs new pair of shoes

They've been chomping at the bit for decades now. W was predicted SS's bankruptcy in the 80's when first dabbled in politics. The low hanging fruit....our money!

[Payback Time]

36. The Republican's Secret Sinister Plan sounds like fiction

but truth is even stranger. I don't think they will get that much farther along this path though. People are foolish but not necessarily stupid. As far as the wise invester averaging 10% or so over the long term:

1) the average American will not know enough to watch their stocks
2) with so many more Americans in the stock market, there will be even bigger panicky sell offs when the economy or world situation gets insecure and a lot of people will get hurt.

Like many during the .com bubble, I thought the stock market was an easy way to make money; that it would gradually continue going up. Well, I made a little and lost a little, but I mostly got out in time and many of those who were left in the market took bad losses. When your stocks drop, who knows if they will ever go up again?

Bush says the government will offer index funds, which are diversified, managed, and considered safe but, still, major money can be lost.

We live in precarious times, America has huge deficits and a falling dollar. I really don't think the long-term, 10% rule applies right now and wouldn't want to be the ginea pig (sp?) who finds out. Imho, you really have to be sharp to know how to play the market and you have to have the reserves (cash, real estate) to hold on during the bad times. What average American will be able to do that?

[ChairOne]

34. because SS is a device for economic upward mobility...

... which, by definition, republicans must oppose.

[Just Me]

37. Exactly!!!! SPOT ON!

I have to tuck that one away!!!

[Old and In the Way]

35. Some Democrat should attach a bill reforming Congressional pensions.

Put their retirement on the same system.

The real question is why there is a cap on SS taxes. Why should someone making $180,000 a year pay 1/2 the SS tax someone who makes $90K. Reduce SS by 2% and tax all income, regardless of amount. That'll more than fix the problem.

[napi21]

38. The excuse I've heard iss that SS is a self financed program.

and if you removed the cap, the weathy individuals would NEVER be able to live long enough to recover what they paid in. Doing that would make it a welfare program.

I haven't taken the time to figure out just how much a person would pay into the SS system if he paid the max, at the different cap stages, during his entire career. Would someone like that usually recover what they paid in, even under the current rules?

I don't necessarily believe the cap should be removed entirely, but we've raised it many times in the past, and now seems like a goot time to do it again. Maybe to $110,000 or $120,000.

[Old and In the Way]

51. Seems to me that a cap works as welfare for the rich.

Why should there be any caps on the income that is taxed for SS? And why should there be a cap on the payouts? If the actuarial tables are calculated correctly, there should be no effect to the average pay-in/payout tables irregardless of income....except that there'd be no question about the solvency of the program.

[Fescue4u]

44. Because their is a cap on monthy benefits

Why should someone who makes 180k get only half the benefits of someone who makes 90k?

Besides, the caps are going up every year.

[Old and In the Way]

50. OK, so double the benefits.

They should be entitled to the same rates of payout that everyone else gets in the system. And there should be no cap on income.

[Fescue4u]

53. sounds good to me.

I wouldnt oppose a cap on the "input" side if there is no cap on the "output" side.

[Mr Rabble]

40. nothing more than the destruction of SSI

I would have more respect for these maggots if they would just come out and say it.

[Disturbed]

42. This is the basic RW Agenda.

The Right Wing Agenda

Abolish

Social Security
Medicare
Employer supplied health insurance
Unemployment Benefits
Welfare
Abortion Rights
Collective Bargaining
EPA
Public Education
Public Housing
IRS

[Ouabache]

46. Stock Market crashes after the last fool shows up with his money.

-old quote I read somewhere. Whose nobody's fool?

[peacetalksforall]

47. It's for big profit now (with a set-up financed by taxpayers) and a big

theft down the road when cashing-in time comes. Oops...so sorry we lost that money for you. Get in the line.

How can anyone think that the immorality of many corporations is going to go away knowing what we know about all the corporations that screwed the country, including the accounting firm corporations that guided the thefts? How stupid can we expect to be?

Ever wonder why they ridiculed Gore and his lock-box messages? Those who ridiculed probably didn't ever understand what it was all about it in the detail they know now, but they keep on shilling for the corporations and their political party and maybe a little payola.

Short term or long term - the objectives are not honorable.

[Lisabtrucking]

49. because that is going to help the corporations get more money too

screw us. I really believe that is the only reason they want to push this so bad.

People would have to invest to have their social security grow. get it. If they didn't invest they would lose, a no win solution for us the people.

If they can't get you too invest, they are going to make you.

That I believe is the true reason.