I invite anyone who thinks teachers are paid well or that it's easy to go

[Bouncy Ball]

do it.

Seriously. Here in Texas you need only have a degree, no certification. Most states are pretty hard up. They give you three years to get emergency certification. So you'll attend classes at night, but only for a while.

I am totally sincere in this. Even if you think they are compensated fairly, but not overpaid, go for it. If you think the vacations are luxurious, go for it. Do it for a whole year, then tell me what you think.

I haven't met a person yet who has gone into teaching who didn't emerge at the end of the first year a different person with very different views on what it is to teach. Just because you have SEEN someone teach, or you once went to school doesn't mean you have a clue.

And quite frankly, it's insulting when politicians and citizens assume they know exactly what it's like. I used to want a camera crew to follow me around for about a week and make a new reality show. Then people would start to get an idea of what it's really like. And this is coming from someone who LOVES to teach.

Just go find out for yourself. There will be things you will have to deal with that you never even counted on, never even thought of. You will have many moments, sitting in faculty meetings, finding out the latest thing you must ALSO do when you'll think "they cannot add another single thing to my day, I will explode." You won't believe the number of hours you put in per week. Oh and the work is never-ending. You could always be writing lesson plans, finding materials, making copies, working on student files, making phone calls, etc. The list is longer than your leg.

Don't forget to make sure they all pass the high stakes tests!!! And teach the entire curriculum! In many different, modified ways for different learners. And for your CMC and resource kids! And don't forget ESL! And team meetings, department meetings, faculty meetings, curriculum meetings, required staff development, inservice, ARDs, parent meetings, Meet the Teacher Night, Open House, CIC meetings, PTA meetings (teachers are required to go in a lot of schools), Awards Night, etc.

(Did I forget to mention grading and lesson planning?) Your lesson plans are due each Monday. No drill-n-kill! Student-centered instruction! Cooperative group work! Thematically-based units, remember! Interdisciplinary units (get together with the social studies/history, science and math teachers and make your stuff coordinate!).

185 kids in five class periods. Fifty five minutes per period. Four minute passing periods. Five-step disciplinary plan, keep track of it in a binder with a file for each kid. One fifty-five minute planning period. You must walk your lunch class to the cafeteria and pick them up and walk them back, even though they are in the eighth grade, because this is the post-Columbine era. Which means you have 20 minutes for lunch. If you hurry, you can pee, wash your hands and gulp down a heated up Lean Cuisine and check your inbox and email before you have to pick them up again.

Two preps (I'm being kind, aren't I, teachers?). Which means two different sets of lesson plans.

Work with an outdated text (older than the kids by several years), copies of which are in short supply and held together with tape and staples. Struggle to find material from other sources and violate copyright law constantly.

The copy machine breaks down three times a week in a good week. Your school runs out of copy paper in February and can't get anymore (district rules). Go buy your own copy paper. Ditto ink cartridges for printers.

Spend $500-$1500 a year on supplies. Deal with backstabbing/bitter and just waiting for retirement/gossipy/horrible fellow teachers, inept administration and the like.

Tutor kids before and after school. Act enthusiastic when your principal holds little teacher pep rallies after school to try out the latest fad managerial technique. We're swimming!!! We're fish! :puke:

The computer lab isn't up and running. The resources in the library are somewhat inadequate. There are big garbage cans in the hallway when it rains. The boys' toilets overflowed into your hallway AGAIN. Your room is 87 degrees in May and 57 degrees in January. Enter the teacher betting pool to see when and where this year's electrical fire will break out (2004: Mrs. Spencer's room, ceiling, sixth grade hallway, I lost the bet).

When fights break out, watch them just long enough that you know all involved will go to AEP, then break it up. Sayanora.

Grade 157 term papers over Christmas break. Take three "mandatory" staff development courses over the summer or teach summer school (if you can get a spot, highly competitive) to make ends meet.

Funny, I've hardly mentioned the kids, have I?

Go for it.

[redqueen]

1. I sincerely want to, BB.

But I don't have a degree. I plan to get one, though... and being a teacher is what I've wanted to do since I was little. I hope to join you soon. :)

[Bouncy Ball]

Boy I sure made it sound attractive didn't I?

LOL. Those were all things I have personally experience and I know I left a lot out.

For those who really love it, though, it's good. I am now teaching teachers, so it's different and I have to say, I miss my eighth grade buggers. :cry:

Good luck!!!

[redqueen]

7. Thanks!

It doesn't matter how it sounds, BB... it's what I've wanted to do from the time I was 5... since the first time my parents asked me what I wanted to do.

Maybe I'll be in your class. ;)

[China_cat]

13. Come to South Carolina

It isn't really teaching but you can be a substitute with only a high school diploma and you can work every day of the year (yes, including summers) without any of the bullshit.

You won't get to know the kids, they won't get to know you and if you're good you might teach them something. But you'll be in the school system without those bothersome things called credentials.

[Bouncy Ball]

14. There are advantages to subbing, but

you get no benefits and you are always on someone else's "turf."

Still, it's a super flexible job. I've done it.

[redqueen]

16. Thanks, CC!

I'll keep that in mind. :)

It'd be hard to leave Texas... I've wanted to, but something keeps me here. (I think it's the food. ;))

[Egalitariat]

2. Most jobs that are worth having (and pay more than min. wage) are hard****

nm

[Bouncy Ball]

3. Ha!

And? Are you willing to teach?

I've worked in the private sector, too, and lemme tell you, I made the same amount as a technical writer that I did as a teacher and the level of stress, work and difficulty CANNOT be compared.

As a technical writer, I wasn't responsible for monitoring anyone's behavior but my own. I got to chat when I wanted to, blow off steam when I wanted to. I worked, I wrote computer manuals, I went to meetings.

I could take an hour for lunch and actually go out to eat. The worst part about that job was my scary editor and she was nothing compared to the worst parts of teaching.

So I encourage you to try it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. I'll bet you got to go to the bathroom anytime

you needed to also!

[Maestro]

4. Dreaded dupe message

Deleted

[Bouncy Ball]

8. We sure do, I hear ya.

Last state pay raise we had was in 1999 and that was just to get us up to minimum levels.

My district tried to give us a raise for this year, but it was a no go. And our health insurance and dental insurance went WAY up.

[Bouncy Ball]

10. This is in reply to Maestro's message below.

[Maestro]

5. Been a teacher for 14 years

10 of which in the Texas public school system. It is draining, rewarding, frustrating and exhilarating all at the same time. I echo your comments on watchdog groups, parents and politicians who think they can easily step in and do my job. Ridiculous! We are psychologists, therapists, anthropologists just as much as we are teachers. Here is Texas the pay is exceptionally poor so you really must be dedicated. We are still rated in the lower half for pay yet we have borne the brunt of this asinine testing craze longer than any other state. I just heard on the news where the Texas House is wanting to increase funding for education by $3 billion, yet this does not include a pay raise to at least get us to the upper half of pay nationwide. My district has been incapable of providing a raise for three years of the past four. Last year I received a 3% raise yet this was eaten up by a huge increase in my health insurance with the district. We need financial help here in Texas.

[whistle]

6. How do American teaching position salaries compare to other...

...developed nations? I'm betting that teacher pay scales are well below those of other countries, take our closest and richest neighbor to the north Canada, pay scales are well above those found almost anywhere in the U.S. and when benefits are added to those wages, Canadian teachers come out well ahead of the U.S. Of course, they don't have to teach Creationism in Canada, just the basics like maths, sciences, language skills and other not so useful subject matter.

[Be Brave]

9. Teaching is hard work, period.

And for many, it is a thankless job.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

11. PA teaching jobs are hard to get...so I hear

I've been told that PA teachers are paid very well and, as a consequence to young Masters educated teachers, they can't get jobs in the public schools. At least in the suburbs...maybe the inner city schools have more openings. But all-in-all, PA grads often move to other states or get paid a lot less at Catholic schools.

Forgot to mention: I really respect teachers...it's a damn hard job.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. Good for PA.

Means they have more competition for the teaching jobs, more teachers with master's degrees, thus probably a higher quality of education.

[China_cat]

15. Until they get to their senior year.

(My niece graduated from a PA school and my nephew is in his senior year.)

It's really a teach to the test year. If they don't pass the standardized test, they don't graduate. No matter what their grades. And other grades are predicated on a 'senior project' that is more like a post-grad thesis in that it has to be approved by advisors, has to take the full year to do and must be incredibly detailed. Not to mention expensive.

[Bouncy Ball]

18. Well here we have high stakes testing

every year from third grade on. And multiple benchmarks and field testing all year. Between all that and the test prep teachers feel pressured to do, it's a wonder any bit of the curriculum gets taught.

Sounds like overall, you still have a better system in PA.

[alcuno]

17. I've worked in 2 "right to work" states and am much happier in Illinois.

I almost fell over when I heard what my initial pay here would be. Housing is more expensive, but quality of life is greater. That said, teaching is a ton of work.

I teach mathematics and don't have the paperwork that others have. However, the sheer act of instructing 6 classes per day and working with students who need help at lunch or after school is exhausting.

[Bouncy Ball]

19. I once told my husband

it's like having to be "on" all day long. On stage, on fire, etc.

It's mentally exhausting. Thinking on your feet all day long with hardly a break at all.

[GreenPoet64]

20. Here is what I am facing working on my credential:

I live in California and am a single mom:

Upon graduating with a B.A. in Psychology and Creative Writing, I have not yet paid off my school loans and must enter a credential program.

The credentialing program that I am in costs $1200 a month. (10 months)

Upon completing the program I must do student teaching full-time (no pay) for four months. In total $1200 a month (for 14 months) and of those 14 months--4 months I will have no income.

I must be finger printed at every school district to which I apply to work at a cost of $89 per prints.

In order to substitute teach at $100 a day I need a substitute teaching permit $55 (and another set of fingerprints taken $69.)

In order to apply for an internship I need an internship credential ($75) and prints taken for the CCTC ($89).

In order to teach I need to pass the CSET ($250). If I fail I must pay to take it again.

In order to substitute teach I need to pass the CBEST. If I remember correctly that costs about $100.

I must have a TB test, and a physical $90

I must provide each school district to which I apply transcripts from each of my universities (2-3 jobs applied can cost $45-55)

I must take an all day US constitution class $70.

I must get my final credential $55.

In total I will have spent $18,000 above and beyond my B.A. degree just to get my teaching credential.

Anyone who thinks it is easy to become a teacher and some sort of free ride is TOTALLY out of their MIND!

[Bouncy Ball]

22. YIKES.

Wow. That's way worse than here.

[Maestro]

24. That is crazy

Even in nutball Texas for those that want to teach and already have degress there are alternative programs that allow to teach while taking the classes you need for certification. Thus you avoid the student teaching time that is unpaid and other expenses. I wish you the best though. Hey come to Texas. I am a Texan through and through and even though my state is nut crazy right now, you can teach here if you want to.

[LWolf]

37. Sounds about right.

I turn 45 this spring. I will finally have paid off all my student loans by next December. I'm transferring out of state, and will have some other credential requirements in the new state.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

53. Wow.. that sucks that you're university makes pay for transcripts.

That's such a rip off. I'm glad my school doesn't do that.

[GreenPoet64]

133. The transcript is usually only $6 --but most employers

want a sealed transcript mailed within 48-72 hours following an interview or else you risk not getting the job. It's the overnight mailing charges that add up!

Now, the only reason I went this route is that I plan to get my masters degree--teachers who have a masters degree are paid much more than those with a bachelors degree in California.

But Arnold wants to change all of that in a special election.

If he does, I will not finish the masters program as I won't be able to pay back the loans. Interesting eh? He wants to switch to merit pay to hold teachers accountable so that we have better teachers here and no one--NO ONE will want to continue with their education.

Interesting eh?

[tjdee]

71. That's why I stopped.

A few personal issues too, but mainly it was the money and the hoops to jump through (understandably).

I figured I should start doing something in the meantime. Turns out, I like having a lunch to myself and not having to worry about more than my kid (single mom here too).

Course, I cry when I think about the summer vacation I won't have (sounds like teachers don't even have the summer vacation I think they have), and the teacher's salary I don't have.

Ya can't win, LOL. If I were a teacher I'd be complaining about something else.

[Nite Owl]

21. Teaching is not easy by any means.

Both my husband and myself were teachers. We worked at it constantly, in early and staying late. Most people think that there is some compensation for the 'summers off' but since you are on contract there is no such thing as unemployment and summers often went to going to classes. In NY you need to be certified and when you graduate you have 3 yrs to get permanent certs, a grad degree. When we were teaching you had 5yrs.

[Rowdyboy]

23. My better half is in his 29th year in the classroom...One more and out!

His situation sounds remarkably like what you describe. When he taught middle-school, they caught a 13 year old underneath one of the classroom trailers, trying to disconnect the gas line so he could blow it up....All in a day's work in the public school system.

Thankfully, he teaches high school now...

[Bouncy Ball]

25. Oh the stories he and I could tell, eh?

Let's see, I found a student of mine trying to give herself an abortion in the bathroom. We called 911 and seven months later she gave birth to a brain damaged baby girl. Then the former student of mine committed suicide. She was pregnant by her stepfather, btw.

Just one of many gems.

I used to just drive home crying.

[Rowdyboy]

26. Or so tied up in knots inside that you don't even feel like talking

about it. Parent-Teacher Conference is always the same: the good kids parents come, the kids who aren't learning or won't participate have parents who wouldn't be caught dead there.

[Rowdyboy]

29. Thats why they pay you the big bucks, right?

:eyes:

[Bouncy Ball]

32. Yep, got my summer home on Cape Cod.

Where do you and your partner summer?

[Rowdyboy]

46. Either Hyannisport, St Moritz, the Berkshires or

maybe gambling in the casinos down in Biloxi.....Most likely, Biloxi.

[loudestchick]

27. 15 yrs ago I had the worst student teaching experience. I had a pregnant

eighth grader, two girls who dissappeared for 4 days (it took the parents 2 days to realize they were gone) and returned w/ gang tatoos having been gang raped while they were missing. I had an 8th grade boy arrested from my class for sexual assault on a sixth grade student. I was hit from behind w/ a book...4 students were behind me in the classroom...no one was talking. 7th graders who came to school high and hungry. I withdrew from my student teaching, at 21 I wasn't ready. Now, at 36 I'm back in school to get my certification. I won't be run off as easily now and I won't hesitate to get the support I'll need.

[Bouncy Ball]

28. yeah teaching in that kind of situation is hard.

I left teaching when I was 24, swearing I'd never be back, but four years later, I missed the kids, the creativity of it too much and went back. This time I wasn't run off, LOL!

Good for you and good luck! I had a kid brandish scissors at me when I was nine months pregnant and offer to give me a homemade C-section. It was all I could do to remain calm and get him to hand me the scissors.

[ChairOne]

30. Teaching *is* hard. They should have to be actually *well-educated*...

... therefore... at least at the middle school+ level...

Garbage in, garbage out...

[Bouncy Ball]

31. I didn't understand that post, but were you saying

that teachers aren't well-educated and that we're garbage???

[ChairOne]

33. Hm. Sorry, it's a very old phrase, and doesn't imply that anyone...

is garbage. Apologies for pulling random, little-known, never-heard phrases outta my ass... Did you say you were a teacher?

But taken as a whole, yes: out of degree-holders, people with education degrees are among the most ill-educated of all.

I don't see how one can expect to end up with smart kids when the teachers themselves (taken as a whole) are among the dimmest graduates that our university system has to offer. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Bouncy Ball]

34. Wow you're really nice,

and passive-aggressive, too! Bonus!

I've heard the phrase garbage in, garbage out, but instead of jumping to the conclusion that you were being insulting to teachers, I thought ask to see if you really were. You really were!

Well, my degree is in English, does that mean I don't have to be lumped into your "dim" category of teacher? In fact, most secondary teachers hold a degree in their subject area, not education.

Do you even know what you're talking about?

You're one to talk about smarts: "I don't see how one can expect to end up with smart kids when the teachers themselves (taken as a whole) are among the dimmest graduates that our university system has to offer."

I have nothing to do with whether the child is SMART or not, but I do help to educate them. There's a difference.

So tell us, Grand Poobah, are you a teacher? This was not about the intelligence level of teachers, but rather what their job is like.

I'm going to assume you once dated a teacher and they dumped you. Or you've know about two teachers in your adult life.

[ChairOne]

36. Dunno bout English.... haven't looked up descriptive stats for them...

I suspect they're - as a group - only slightly above Ed.

But in any case, if you're ok with the education and intelligence level of America's teachers, rock on. And watch kids continue to get stupider and stupider.

(btw - I'm not currently teaching, but I have 5-6 years classroom teaching experience)

I understood on concern of this thread to impart an appreciation for the difficulty of teaching. I agree with that wholeheartedly, and am drawwing a consequence: because it's so difficult, we should have our best and brightest doing it - not the rest.

Is that not topical?

[Bouncy Ball]

38. Well what do you suggest then?

Seeing as a lot of states are currently experiencing a lack of teachers. What is your Grand Plan for getting all the idiots out of teaching?

You will attract the best and the brightest, btw, when you improve the pay and working conditions. It's not rocket science. And that STARTS with people realizing how hard it truly is.

And people going around saying teachers are idiots doesn't exactly help. If anything that will lower the respect level people have for the profession. If that's possible.

Oh but thanks for putting me just above education majors. Why does your writing style strike me as familiar?

[ChairOne]

40. Double the pay, Require Master's degrees in academic field. /eom

[Bouncy Ball]

42. Well I agree with that.

And we could have gotten here quite nicely without all the insults. I happen to know plenty of very intelligent elementary school teachers. Sorry you only ran into dimwits.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yupster]

55. He is right though

that students majoring in education are among the lowest scoring on SAT's of any majors.

Here's a write-up about the problem.

From my own college days (I taught nine years in public schools), I remember an awful lot of football players in my education classes. No offense to the football players, but I think they dragged our average down a bit.

http://www.mackinac.org/print.asp?ID=3121

[fishwax]

179. That's a pretty bullshit statistic

First, it's one state. Second, it's people who say they intend to major in Education. It doesn't specify people who are majoring in education. Hell, I knew people in high school who took the SAT and wound up not going to college at all, let alone getting a degree in what they considered their most likely major as a high school junior or senior. Third, the SAT isn't really an indicator of intelligence or ability to learn or teach. It's an indicator of how well one takes standardized tests.

[Yupster]

182. Here's a few more links

Pick them apart too, but in the end it doesn't change the fact that college education majors are about the lowest scoring students we have on campuses nation-wide.

http://www.reformk12.com/archives/000094.nclk

http://www.brainstages.net/aaas.htm

http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20030202training0202p2.asp

Just to add my own nine years of teaching experiences, when I was in college, I would go from history classes to education classes. The difference in the quality of the students was noticable to me.

Also, at the school I taught there were always a few history teachers teaching at any one time who were completely unqualified for their jobs due to lack of knowledge about the subject they taught.

One particular woman is still a good friend of mine 20 years later. She was an english teacher, but her students did very poorly on the end of the year testing year after year. Finally the decision was made. She would be moved to history because they didn't have an end of the year test in that subject. Now there was a second problem though. In addition to being a poor teacher, she now also had no (and I mean no) knowledge or interest in the subject she was teaching. She retired this past year after teaching history badly for over 15 years.

One more example is a person I grew up with, She was always a very poor student with no interest in academics at all growing up. She dropped out of college, but after having kids, found herself, and through much hard work eventually graduated with an education degree. When I heard she taught special ed, I was happy for her because I thought that was a place she could do herself and many other people some good. Last time I saw her, she told me she was now teaching classroom high school history. I was shocked and asked her how she could teach history since she didn't know any herself. "I'm learning," she said sheepishly.I was embarrassed, but she took me by surprise. I never thought for a minute that this person could teach a subject in high school that she has absolutely no knowledge in.

[fishwax]

184. Well, once again those statistics don't show what you claim

all those sites reference students who are planning to major in education. So they don't really tell us anything about students who DO major in education, or students who complete a major in education, or students who then take their education major into the classroom. So they really don't tell us anything about the sentiment you first agreed with (that education degreeholders are the most ill-educated of all) or the first claim that you made (that education majors don't perform well on the SAT) or the "fact that college education majors are about the lowest scoring students we have on campuses nation-wide."

Potential grad students taking the GRE intending an Education Major score roughly around the level of potential grad students in business. (Of course, this doesn't necessarily reflect their undergraduate major, but ...) Those approaching grad school with an intent to get education degrees are not the highest performers on the GRE, and it would be nice to see those scores raised.

But then, it shouldn't surprise anyone, given the relative income and prestige, that students who average in the 700s on the Quantitative score are applying to Engineering Schools rather than Education schools. (Of course, differences in the undergraduate major also effect the GRE scores, even if intelligence is accounted for. If one identical twin majors in history and another in engineering, the engineering major will probably score higher on teh quantitative due to the rigors of undergraduate instruction.)

FWIW, I agree that increasing the quality of teachers can only improve the system and benefit students overall, but we won't get teachers who are brilliant in their fields until there is a sea change in our approach to education overall.

And when I was an undergrad I had several different majors (two undergrad degrees) as well as minors. The place where i always noticed a steep drop off in the quality of student was in Business classes. But I don't conclude from that that business students are stupid.

[Star]

39. Thanks, ChairOne

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

I completed a BS in Biology, then completed an MS in Oceanography, then took 2 years of education classes so I could learn the ins and outs of teaching itself. Next, I took 2 years to (almost) complete an MA in Education. Altogether, I've completed over 100 semester hours of GRADUATE course study. And, I completed all of this as a single parent working full time.

Finally, in order to continue teaching, I am required to continuously take "professional development" courses.

What education have you had?

[ChairOne]

41. More than you. But this isn't a big-dick contest...

And there should be a distinction between graduate study in *education*, and graduate study in an *academic* field.

[Star]

43. Oops, sorry

Oceanography is an "academic" field.

[ChairOne]

44. Um, did I ever say, suggest, or imply that it wasn't?

Not following your point on oceanography...

[Bouncy Ball]

52. Maybe you should read their posts a bit more carefully.

[ChairOne]

54. [shrug] I just don't recall saying that oceanography......

.... wasn't an academic field... Maybe I did, I dunno... lol

[Yupster]

56. Agree with you about the master's

I got a Master's in Curriculum and Instruction and it was a worthless waste of my time and the taxpayers' money.

Someone else in the thread said their C+I degree required a statistics class. My wife and I each got ours and we sure didn't do any rigorous amount of anything.

Just my own local experience of course, but our C+I degrees were a scam. The rofessors let us out an hour early, knew we were there after a long day and only were there for the stipend, and treated the class that way. The taxpayers got stuck with the bill because the degree gave us each an extra $ 100 per month.

Of course other people's experiences could be far different.

[ChairOne]

59. lol - on the statistics issue....

I would totally dig getting into a conversation about the measure-theoretic fine points of the differences between, say, convergence in probability, and convergence in distribution.

I just don't see having that conversation with an Ed. person. At least not as they currently exist. I'm open to pleasant surprises tho...

[Bouncy Ball]

65. I doubt many people with social skills or emotional

maturity would want to discuss anything with you, given your elitist attitude and lack of manners.

[ChairOne]

75. Mebbe - had an excellent dynamic programming discussion...

... the other day tho...

But it's troo - there *are* certain sorts of people that I have trouble talking to. Those who think that insisting on teachers being genuinely well-educated is "elitist", for example.

[Bouncy Ball]

87. LOL, you actually think that's all you said here?

Again, you are confusing intelligence and education. You originally said that graduates with a degree in education are DIM, that they are unintelligent; in fact, garbage.

Now you are saying you insist on them being "genuinely well-educated?" Well you've strayed from your original assertion, haven't you? Cleaned it up a bit.

I am sorely questioning the level of your education if you cannot even follow your own thoughts.

[ChairOne]

101. That's right.... keep repeating the "garbage" lie... lol

And I'll keep telling the truth: I did not call anyone garbage.

I don't see the "straying" of which you speak. Rephrasing, elaborating, elucidating perhaps, but not straying. OTOH, this may be the nominal smelly rose issue.

[Bouncy Ball]

104. In one post you are talking about intelligence levels

and in another in the SAME context you talk about education levels.

If you can't see where you are messing up when the words are all right in front of you, you are beyond help....

Garbage, according to you = dim elementary school teachers

garbage in, garbage out = dim kids

Go back and look at it.

[ChairOne]

112. lol - I didn't call anyone garbage. /eom

[Bouncy Ball]

114. ...

"I don't see how one can expect to end up with smart kids when the teachers themselves (taken as a whole) are among the dimmest graduates that our university system has to offer. Garbage in, garbage out."

[ChairOne]

116. Very nice - I also didn't call anyone "dim" - LOL /eom

[Bouncy Ball]

125. Do I have to bring the whole thing down here to you?

"...some of the dimmest graduates...."

[ChairOne]

134. Ah.... I recognize the educator by the print of his paw....

Illustrative example1:

In room with Einstein, Godel, Hawking, Penrose, and Feynman, Penrose is generally considered the dimmest. But Penrose isn't dim.


Illustrative example2 (doesn't rely on edumacatedness):

In a set of numbers containing .001, .0001, and .00001, .001 is the largest. But .001 isn't a large number.


Illustrative comment:

Look up the word "comparative" in a dictionary.

[Lindacooks]

158. Can't you read? Or are you really this obstinate?

Yes, you DID call people 'garbage' and you DID say that most teachers are dim. There's nothing worse than trying to discuss a point with someone who denies what he just said.

And what IS your education, anyway? I notice that you can't spell basic words: it's 'true', not 'troo' and 'though' not 'tho'.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lindacooks]

186. No, I'm not an educator.

And I'm also not smug and self-congratulatory. Now you're on ignore.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

76. Did anyone ever tell you that

you're an academic snob? You certainly seem that way based on the messages you've been posting in this thread. I'd say worse, but I'm just too nice for that.

[ChairOne]

81. Can't recall for sure...... mebbe.... it's certainly possible....

But boy, just think how awful the country would be if there were philosophy Ph.D.s running around unleashed. And if folks with MS degrees in mathematics were a dime-a-dozen. And if the streets were teeming with microbiologists, historians, and opera singers.

What an awful elitist, country full of academic snobs that would be. I see your point. What a fucked up country THAT would be.

Sigh. As long as you guys are happy being deltas, I suppose, and don't want anything better... rock on.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

86. There's nothing wrong with being educated...

but you seem to phrase your posts as if you were trying to prove to everyone here how intellectually superior you are because you have some particular degree that perhaps other people here may not have (or they may very well have the same degree). Anyhow, I just would like to point out that I find that kind of attitude irritating, and I'm sure other people do as well. You can keep on having that attitude if you want. I just thought I'd point it out to you in case you weren't aware of how condescending you seem (toward education majors in particular).

[Bouncy Ball]

90. I'd say condescending is an understatement.

And I find people hyped up on their own self-inflated sense of importance incredibly boring, which is why any conversation with ChairOne is going to have a mighty short shelf life for me.

[ChairOne]

92. Um no - it's actually others here - NOT me...

... who want to get into a show-me-your-credentials contest... I sweartagod the textual record is clear on that - for anyone who cares to read it....

In any case, given that I would be perfectly happy to have education eliminated as a university degree program, there's just no way for me to "come off well" to folks like you.

I'm sorry if I want more for American kids than half-literate, C-minus earning (in real terms - grade inflation makes the nominal grade vary), lowest quartile GRE scoring "teachers". But I do. I want substantially more than that.

And all of the jillion *other* problems in education need to be addressed too - but you all (ed. folks) give them enough press, and don't need my help.

[Bouncy Ball]

98. Oh it's not that your concerns aren't valid.

And it's not that you don't have any ideas.

It's that your approach, your tone, is just downright rude. No one can see past your insulting words.

It might behoove you to learn how to say what you are saying without resorting to childish sarcasm and insults. Then you won't put people on the defensive.

[ChairOne]

103. There's no real way around it, I don't think...

I'm basically saying that an entire institution sucks. I don't think it's even notionally possible that the members of that institution take anything I say in any but a defensive manner.

[Bouncy Ball]

106. LOL

Never took a course on Rhetoric, or Speech Communication? Were those courses just below you? Because you would have benefitted from them.

Yes, there are plenty of ways to say what you are saying without coming off as an ass.

For whatever reason, you choose not to, then disingenuously claim it's impossible.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

107. I was never an education major...

so I could careless if the degree program existed. I just take offense to your tone and the way you bad mouth education majors.

You don't have to apologize for wanting educated children. I think most people here want the same thing. The point is that undereducated teachers is not a reason why our education system is failing. You are placing a lot of blame on the teachers, when the problem really is lack of funding. The teachers are really the only ones out there that are trying to do something to make the system work. They are overworked tremendously and it really sucks when people trash on their credentials on top of all the other bullshit they have to deal with when it comes to their jobs.

[ChairOne]

115. Ok, I'll say it again....

There are many problems with the educational system. Educators do a bang of job of bringing many of them to the public's attention. Because I do not, in one particular conversation, focus on those things, does not in any way mean that I am unaware of their existence.

There are other problems which, imo, educators do less well at addressing. So from time to time I like to spend a little bit of time discussing them.

Unlike you, I suppose, I do not believe in "the problem" with the educational system. I believe there are many. A great many educators think as you do tho. Chalk up another point of disagreement, I guess.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

124. No, it really is the lack of money

and also lack of parental involvement. Those are the big reasons. You could reduce that down into a lot of little reasons if you like.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

143. People with MBA's are fucking it up quite nicely, thanks :)

One of the best and brightest teachers I know, who is having STAGGERING successes with kids that were pushed out of public schools is a friend who runs a non-profit school. She also happened to drop out of a PHD program, NOT because of the heat in the kitchen, but largely because she REFUSED to believe inner-city kids should be written off by a bunch of pointy headed academics with statistical studies demonstrating they were doomed to failure.

She's getting the last laugh. Her kids were NOT ONLY former drop outs, they are now performing a GRADE AHEAD of where they should be and the jr and sr year kids are getting a college level education.

Sometimes bucking academia and what they think they know has its merits.

But what do I know? I am just a lowly juris doctor.

[Bouncy Ball]

146. You have a JD?

I didn't know that!

Cool.

[Bouncy Ball]

88. Pssst

I've found that people who feel the need to let everyone else know how smart they are are often anything but.

As in "who are you trying so hard to convince, me or you?"

LOL.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

93. I have found the same to be true too..

but I'm not going to assume anything beyond what is posted here.

[ChairOne]

105. Ok "rigourous statistics" dude.... /eom

[fishwax]

181. I know if someone can't discuss convergence in probability/distribution

I sure as hell don't want him teaching my 8 year old!

[Bouncy Ball]

50. Thanks for saying all that.

I am working on an M.Ed. in Curriculum and Instruction and it's hardly for dimwits. The first course is a rigorous statistics and research methods course.

Please note ChairOne refused to pony up the academic credentials and you did.

Ahem.

[ChairOne]

57. That you think a big-dick contest is relevant only illustrates...

... my whole point... lol

OTOH, at least you have the good sense not to use GRE scores as the metric... lol...

OTOOH, I hear they've dumbed it down lately, eliminating the Analytic section, which had been a common bugaboo for many people in certain sorts of majors.

[Bouncy Ball]

63. I knew I thought your writing style was familiar for a reason.

That's right, keeeep talking.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChairOne]

94. [shrug] You're the one who introduced your "rigourous" statisitics

coursework into the conversation... Not me.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChairOne]

110. It's a stats class in an ed. program - nuff said

Yah, it's *possible*, I suppose, that there exist an ed. program *somewhere* whose stats class is serious. I don't think there's anything formally inconsistent with the notion, at least...

I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting to find one tho.

I also have no way of *knowing* that there isn't, somewhere out there, a pig with wings - so? Much of life is based on inferences, which can be better or worse. This one is on the better side.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChairOne]

127. LOL - why on earth would you think that the way I talk to adults...

... in any way resembles the way I talk to kids? lol - that's absolutely bizarre...

My problem? Stupid people are running and ruining my country. They're creating a younger generation of stupid people, who are practically guaranteed to do no better.

America is no longer the "go to" place for education. China, India, and Japan, for example, have schools that are intellectual competitors to our best. Apparently the SAT is not available to Chinese highschoolers. So they take the GRE for their college entrance. They routinely do better than American college grads.

Education is among the most least socially-valued commodities. Even on DU, people who want teachers to be the cream-of-the-crop are called "elitist" and "snob". I want something of a Copernican Revolution wrt the way in which educated-ness is thought of. In the country I'm looking for, for example, people wouldn't think it "elitist", or "snobby" to require that teachers be among the best and the brightest.

(At some point, please mentally insert my "there are many problems, not just one" blurb. It seems to be required in every post in this thread.)

[Bouncy Ball]

131. AGAIN

it's NOT what you say, but HOW you say it. Just read through your posts on this thread. Your VERY first post was insulting. Then when I asked for clarification, you got all passive-aggressive and insulting directly to me. Nice. That doesn't exactly pave the way for open discourse and understanding, get where I'm coming from?

Until you can get that little fact of life crammed into your brain, you will continue to be frustrated in your attempts to get your points across.

[ChairOne]

135. I'm not frustrated in the least.... /eom

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

138. I did not call you an academic snob because you

want teachers to be well educated. I said that because you were implying that your degree (whatever it maybe) is somehow superior to the degrees other people/teachers in this thread have received. You talk as if you are somehow a better person because you know a lot about statistics. I just think that is snobbery. You are twisting my comments about your tone to mean that I think you are a snob because you want teachers to be highly educated, when that is not the case at all.

[ChairOne]

140. lol - stats isn't actually my field.... but wutever...

And whatever snobbery you think you see re: stats, attribute it to the person who brought it up in the first place - it certainly wasn't me.

Anyhoo...

I certainly think that an education degree is one of the more worthless items in existence. So I suppose consistency requires that I hold my degrees in higher esteem, since they are in fields other than education. But that comparison was never of importance to me - lol - that would be setting the bar rather low, by my lights. Woohoo - I'm also a better person that Idi Amin (sp?)! lol

All I want smart and well-educated teachers to be the norm. As things stand now, they are the exception - by a long shot (I know you disagree with me on that - cest la vie).

I think it's too bad that teachers think that they're plenty smart & educated already. I think it's too bad that kids routinely graduate from high school not knowing how to add fractions (for fuck's sake). Abstractly, I think there's a connection.



(Mandatory disclaimer: I think there are many problems with the educational system. I focus on one here only because it doesn't get discussed to the degree I think it deserves. There are many other important problems with the educational system. They receive a great deal more press, and hence I do not focus on them here.)

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

145. OK...

You never said what your field was, you only talked of stats. I think it was rather snobby of you to assume that woman's stats class was not difficult, as if you knew anything about that class. I happen to be good at math too, but I don't talk like an ass and demean other people's achievements because I happen to to have some skills in math. There are other fields and subjects that are just as important that require different skills. Other people have different talents, and they are not necessarily any more or less intelligent than you because they chose a different major or a different field in college.

Smart, well educated teachers are the norm. I don't know why you think this is not the case.

The kids get plenty of opportunities to learn fractions. I went over it a million times with different approaches (swear to God) in the short period of time I worked as a teacher, and they still didn't get it. Yes, it is sad, but the administrators won't let you fail everyone, even if they all deserve it. Apparently, if the kids come to you unprepared (meaning math skills of a a 6th grader or less) and unwilling to learn, it is your fault as a teacher. Oh, yeah, and half of them speak a different language (French, Spanish, Vietnamese) but there are no interpreters. How did I fail to mention this in my previous posts? Oh yeah, and the majority of the kids are are mainstreamed learning disabled and/or emotional handicapped too. Anyhow, if most of your class is failing, it's because you are a bad teacher. This is the kind of stuff the administration would say. So, you have to pass them, even though they didn't learn fractions. Messed up, isn't it?

[Bouncy Ball]

147. This person

hasn't been in the classroom in years, as stated above (I can't see their posts anymore, but I recall them saying so). So I'd take anything they say about education with a shakerful of salt. It was insulting, you're right, but that point is obviously totally lost on this person.

[ChairOne]

149. It's been exactly 2 years since I left academia - and that means?

I'm curious about what appear to be your marvellous powers of inference.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

150. Yeah..I'm done for the night anyhow.

I've got to go make my husband (who is a teacher and only has a lousy B.S. degree :)) lunch for work tomorrow. I wouldn't want him to go hungry. :)

[ChairOne]

152. 'Smart, well educated teachers are the norm."

I guess this may be one of those perspectival things - a lot rides on just what one considers *smart*, etc.

Certainly objective measures are in complete agreement with me. Of course that's no help in this discussion because no educator would allow objective metrics to be brought in as evidence. Rather, they would claim that those metrics are "meaningless", and "not good indicators of anything important".

Oh well.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

153. Whatever, buddy.

You are right and everyone else here is wrong. You win!:bounce:
Is that what you want to hear?

[ChairOne]

154. LOL /eom

[RevCheesehead]

123. If this is a "big dick" contest,

I concede the race. No contest at all.

[ChairOne]

166. Ow stop it. Ow stop it. Ow stop it. lol /eom

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

64. Most of the people I met that were teachers were not

education majors. My husband is a teacher and I was a teacher and we both have computer engineering degrees. Several of the math teachers I knew were engineering majors or mathematics majors (is that academic enough for ya?).

Anyhow, if the kids aren't at the appropriate level they need to be at to learn the concepts, it really doesn't matter how skilled or smart their teacher is. They won't learn anything because they aren't ready for it. I had a lot of trouble with this. I really wanted to be able to teach somebody something, but all the kids they gave me were at a 6th grade level or worse (I worked at a high school). They certainly weren't ready to learn Algebra or Geometry. They couldn't even remember basic definitions. It was that pathetic. My students also behaved like overgrown toddlers too.

The problem with the school district in my area is that they are so overwhelmed with kids that they just keep passing them along. Overcrowding is a tremendous problem, and one of the ways they keep the schools from overcrowding is by not holding anyone back (or at least not nearly as many as need to be held back). This buys the district some more time before they are forced to build new schools again. Of course, just passing the kids along also degrades the quality of education the kids receive, but we all know that dollars are more important than people.

If people want smart kids, then perhaps the parents should do more to insure their kids are getting a good education. That's the only way it's going to happen with our current system. Smart parents produce smart kids.

[ChairOne]

73. I agree there are *lots* of problems...

I said as much somewhere around here. I in no way believe in a "magic bullet" theory of improving the American education system.

I just think that uneducated teachers is *one* of the problems, and one that never gets any play (for a variety of straightforward reasons).

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

82. I only worked at a high school level,

I can't say what goes on at the elementary level. I really do wonder what happens to the kids before they get to high school because a lot of them are sure messed up by the time they get there. Anyhow, I don't think any of my co-workers or any of my husband's co-workers were undereducated for their jobs. Most of them were overeducated, if anything.

[ChairOne]

97. [shrug] Depends on your standards, I suppose - ymmv... /eom

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

121. You don't need a PhD in Mathematics to teach

a high school kid Algebra, or even Calculus. A B.S. or B.A. is plenty enough, trust me.

What on earth does "ymmv" mean?

[ChairOne]

132. ymmv = Your Mileage May Vary...

As an experienced consumer and producer of mathematical education, I won't trust you on your claim. In fact, I think it's completely false.

Given a choice between a Ph.D. and a B.S. teaching calculus, and all else is equal, the Ph.D. is chosen everytime. Hands down. I think it's a sad statement about American low/nonexistent standards that people think such things don't matter.

Hell, I'd be shocked if the B.S. could even come up with an intuitive statement of the Mean Value Theorem. Let alone prove it. An American B.S., that is.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

142. PhD is not worth it for the pay.

You get very little pay raise for the amount of money/time that goes into a PhD.

I had to work my ass off for my B.S. in computer engineering, btw.

Thanks for the insult.

I distinctly remember the Mean Value Theorem. That's very basic Calculus. I could certainly teach that to a group of high school kids. Of course I'd have to think about how I would teach it for a little while first. It's been many years since I've done a damn thing with Calculus. I don't use Calculus too much as a stay-at-home mom of a two year old.

[ChairOne]

148. Not for you mebbe... I think education is worth more than $

That's the way it goes I suppose - we all value what we value. For me, education is highly and intrinsically valuable. I also happen to think that the entire country would be oodles better off would its inhabitants seek and value education.

Others feel differently, that, say, the value of an education is to be measured in immediate monetary terms. wuddryagonnado?

Of course MVT is basic calculus - I certainly didn't imagine that you'd be teaching kids how to integrate 2-forms or anything - lol. Nevertheless, MVT is arguably the most important theorem in basic calculus, and oftentimes is pedagogically the most difficult to impart a good understanding of.

[Lindacooks]

156. What the hell are you talking about??

That is one of the rudest messages I have ever seen posted on this board. Have any facts to back up those claims? Links? Research?? ANYTHING??

No? I didn't think so.

[ChairOne]

157. Is that to me? Hard to tell... thread got large... /eom

[Lindacooks]

159. Yes it's to you.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

58. sort of a one-trick pony on this issue, aren't you?

:eyes:

[ChairOne]

60. But it's such a *good* trick [grin]

Education is among the nearest and dearest things to my heart, and I think it's close to a panacea for America's problems.

There are lots of *other* problems that are pointed out/whined about on a routine basis. I think this is one that doesn't get whined about enuff.

EDIT: All I want is for teachers to be from the TOP of the barrel, and not the bottom. I realize that steps on current teachers' toes - lol, competition always makes things hard - but the long-term national virtues of the idea seem to FAR outweigh the vices to me. YMMV tho, I suppose...

[ulysses]

74. you need to consider more barrels. it'd be a better trick

if you understood the profession. Content knowledge is important, but I've known a lot of very well-educated folks who couldn't teach a hungry dog to eat.

I have a friend who, in addition to graduating from St. John's College with the same double major in philosophy and math that I have, attended the Santa Fe Institute and studied higher math. I have a class of ten inner-city learning disabled kids. The one could not teach the ten how to multiply 2- x 3-digit numbers if his life depended on it, because he doesn't understand how children learn or how to tap into their curiosity. Add to that the behavior issues I deal with every day, and, top of the barrel though he is, my friend wouldn't last 30 minutes in my classroom.

"Top of the barrel"? Pay teachers competitively, or at least enough to attract a few more of your content area whiz kids into the field long enough to learn how to teach.

[ChairOne]

77. Content knowledge is a sine qua non.....

I at no point said (ever) that it was *sufficient* for being a good teacher.

Never said it. Never suggested it. Never implied it. Ever.

[ulysses]

84. no, you didn't.

In fact, any idiot can teach multiplication tables, can't they?

[Bouncy Ball]

95. Well that was an interesting thread.

Too bad what this person ChairOne has to say will always and forever be obscured by their very rude and insulting way of saying it. Oh well.

[ChairOne]

96. IIRC, I amended that statement almost immediately...

... to refer to "the multiplication algorithm", as the example was a bit more involved.

[ulysses]

100. ok, any idiot can teach the multiplication algorithm.

Wank. When was the last time you tried?

[Bouncy Ball]

108. Left teaching years ago, apparently.

Never said what they taught. Or why they left.

I guess it was too hard.

[ulysses]

117. it's always easier to snipe from the sidelines. n/t

[ChairOne]

119. Oops - sorry - lost track of this branch......

... last time tried doing what?

[ulysses]

120. never mind, your eminence.

:eyes:

[Bouncy Ball]

129. I'd like to say nevermind to ChairOne, as well.

I just read through all this person's posts on the Education board. That's more than enough for me. I had this horrible vision as I was reading it: THAT is exactly how some rightwingers see us. Insufferable arrogant insulting snobs. That's too damn bad, since most liberals AREN'T insufferable arrogant insulting snobs. If I find out ChairOne is a university professor in a blue state, that'll just nail the whole image. Fortunately I know most of them are not like him/her. Thank God. (I'm glad I don't engage in such broad swipes and generalizations as this person does.)

A person who values book smarts over effectively getting their point across (over anything, it seems). A person who makes all kinds of assumptions about someone's intelligence and educational level just from knowing they teach. Ready to pounce at any moment on teachers. And certainly not above being totally insulting from the very first post.

That's ok. Congratulations, ChairOne. First person on my ignore list.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

130. LOL n/t

[ChairOne]

136. Tree got big, fast - lol /eom

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

128. Yes, this is so true.

I was trying to make this very same point too, but I think you said it much better. :)

[ChairOne]

137. Aack - confused - lol - thought you were against all I said? lol /eom

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

139. I was replying to ulysses.

Maybe I replied to the wrong one.

[ChairOne]

141. Gotcha - phew! - lol

[KaliTracy]

67. It's a double-edged sword that well-educated stuff -- for lots of us who

really enjoyed teaching, and have two or more degrees (mine is English Lit and Masters of Arts in Education) found that it was still expected that you put children in neatly labeled boxes -- even though we all know that children don't all learn the same, nor do the labels adequately define them.

I quit after 5 years. (I should say, when I was getting my English Lit. degree I was not going to be a teacher -- the institution did NOT treat me well as a learner.)

Ohio started High Stakes Testing *before* No Child Left Behind, and I am adamantly against having children, especially elementary children, evaluated on the basis of one test score. I couldn't rectify this rift in myself -- and the fact that districts, as well as teachers were "rated" on the basis of these test scores. Put any one of those "excellent" teachers on one side of a district into a building with "satisfactory" or "marginal" teachers and put those "satisfactory" or "marginal" teachers in the "excellent" teacher slot, and you will find, 9 times out of 10 that the ratings don't travel with the teacher. And the teachers who are working their butts off in those hard areas that are only seen as marginal are never recognized. That's wrong.

Governor Taft recently visited the school districts in this area of Ohio one of which happens to have been rated "excellent" 3 years in a row... but did he go to buildings in the city of Cincinnati where teachers and students have tried against all odds to increase their "scores"? No, because they haven't become "excellent" yet.

I support and applaud the teachers who can give children what they need within all of the obstacles that occur each and every day. I just can't work within the institution.

I tutor -- but I do not "teach to the test" or "prepare students" for the proficiency tests -- I try to help them see the strengths they already have, get them to believe in themselves as learners, help them see the power of reading and writing. And I believe the Majority of teachers out there in the field try to do this as well.

I didn't find Susan Ohanian ( http://www.susanohanian.org/ ) or Alfie Kohn ( http://www.alfiekohn.org/ ) until many years after I quit but I read them now, and resurrected, recreated, and deepened a website against High Stakes Tests that was originally started by a couple of Ohio Moms (though it needs a bit of refresh).

http://stophighstakestests.org

or

http://authenticassessmentnow.org

(same site, just a different way to get there).

The teachers that are out there in the field need our support. It's important to know that they "decline" in education is a fabrication that the Right Wing Business Roundtable corporations want the public to believe. Don't be sucked into the RW agenda.

See: Why is Corporate America Bashing Our Schools? by Kathy Emery and Susan Ohanian -- (they Name Names!)
http://www.susanohanian.org/books/

edited:typo

[ChairOne]

72. I think the decline is real - at least in the sense that...

... kids are getting stupider and stupider. I saw it while teaching. I see it on a daily basis. And because of it, *adults* are getting stupider and stupider. Next thing you know, we're attacking countries that don't pose a threat to us, and-so-on-and-so-forth...

[KaliTracy]

83. no -- not getting stupider. I refuse to believe that. It's the SYSTEM

that is not well -- that doesn't allow for critical thinking (true critical thinking -- not worksheets developed in order to "teach" critical thinking skills), for creative exploration, for questioning and discovering. They are given the answers, expected to memorize the answers, and then, behold, on the test, regurgitate the answers.

This is learning?

Get any 10 of those students you think are "stupid" and work with them on a project for their neighborhood or their community -- make them come up with ways to fund it, to develop it, to determine what is needed and how they will provide it -- and my guess is that you will have students vested in a project that includes a whole lot of learning, and who will be engaged, and challenged, and will succeed.

Traditional schools don't have "time" for this, which is sad.

[ChairOne]

89. I'm not saying the kids are *intrinsically* stupid......

... rather, I'm saying they *end up* stupid.

It's just an emprical fact - I've taught approximately jillions of college freshmen. They literally get dumber and dumber every year.

And again - I agree there are a large number of problems contributing to the overall products-of-American-education-are-stupid problem. I'm just pointing out one that doesn't IMO get enough play.

I completely understand why teachers wouldn't be especially eager to talk about this particular problem...

[KaliTracy]

118. They end up "stupid" because of the system -- they do what is expected

of them -- and then only that.

I taught in College too -- Freshman English and a study skills class for Psychology 101 students. Sure, many of the students were blown away by having to actually take control of their learning.

I have to admit I am biased and have my son who is 5 in alternative education (Montessori) -- and I am also interested in Sudbury ( http://www.sudval.org/ )and other democratic schools, though something like that would never fly here in Cincinnati. Students have to be vested in what they are learning. When they think it's all for a grade, and just work as hard as they think they need to in order to get it -- they don't challenge themselves at all. Alfie Kohn has much research on this factor.

Teachers can (and do) buck the system and engage children, and get them fired up -- but the ones who do are the ones who get in trouble for not following the textbook, for taking "too many" teachable moments outside of the curriculum, for arguing against the use of test scores for determining a child's learning ability. They are not recognized as professionals, and are belittled for going "outside" the teacher's manual. The good ones suck up the reprimand and still do what they are born to do.

It's the system that makes the teachers teach with "teacherproof" materials and administrators who punish teachers who don't follow these materials. It's the system who thinks that every student is like an automobile going down an assembly line and that the same amount of material should be sufficient for every child, and that anything "extra" needed must mean that the child is deficient in some way.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

155. Maybe they do talk about it, just not with people who call them stupid

For the record, if you are so interested in people being in the field that are UP TO your educational level, then why did you leave?

If it isn't about the money and we should all "fuggedaboudit"..what are you doing now?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

161. I'm very curious about this too. n/t

[ChairOne]

167. dunno where all the interest in my personal specifics comes from....

... but wutever...

(a) I would be happiest if people in the field surpassed my educational level. More generally, my desiderata for teachers makes no reference to, nor comparisons with me. You folks are the only ones who think my personal stats are interesting.

(b) I left academia mostly because I wanted to do something more practical, applied, make a product, that sorta thing.

(c) I'm in financial analysis.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

168. Actually, your outright slam of teachers throughout this thread makes

loads of self referential comments wherein you seem to lord over your capabilities while slamming that of others.

And please don't tell me you quit to pursue other interests when in fact, the field you chose is far more lucrative.

I, too, would be happy if teachers surpassed your level of academics and mine. The political reality is that it isn't worth it and for a teacher starting out in the field, it doesn't make sense.

That said, it says MORE about our society than about the people in the vocation that a higher level of academic achievement is not required.

While you raised what you considered to be a "pet issue" in this thread. You raised it in the most demeaning manner possible to those in the field.

[ChairOne]

170. Help plz: where was I the *first* to mention any of my "capabilities"?

LOL - I've never once chosen a position/activity based upon $ (aside from a baseline of paying for rent & food at least). Interest and challenge are pretty much my only considerations. You're welcome to believe me, or not, as you will.

Deameaning? There aren't a lotta noble ways to point out to a room full of education majors that, e.g., ed. majors average 300 on the SAT. (yah, I made that number up, but the true number isn't a whole lot better...)

Such people demean themselves - I'm just pointing it out.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

171. DO you have any proof to back up that statement?

ed. majors average 300 on the SAT. (yah, I made that number up, but the true number isn't a whole lot better...)

Otherwise, why should I grant you any credibility based on conjecture.

Anyway..more about ME..it's late..I am going to bed...we can worship YOU in the morning

[ChairOne]

172. Of course not - that's what "made up" means - lol

EDIT: Hell, I don't even know for a fact that a score of 300 is *possible* - lol

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. Well if the kids really are getting stupider and stupider

I guess it's not the fault of their parents who don't read to them or the amount of TV they watch or the video games they play?

No, it must be those teachers with the low SAT scores. Yeah, riiiight.

[ChairOne]

122. For the 8th time....

... there are many problems. I'm only at the moment focussing on one. That should be taken as implicitly claiming there are no other problems. I don't believe there exists "THE problem" with education. I believe there are many problems with the educational system.

sheesh. Is there something especially difficult about that concept? I'll happily rephrase it, if someone can suggest a more helpful way of rendering the idea...

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. But coming on here and

trashing teachers isn't a very productive way to solve the problem(s), now is it?

If you read this thread, you can see we admit there are problems. And I think I can speak for my fellow educators and say that we want to be part of the solution. We are all STILL teaching. We haven't quit.

[ChairOne]

151. "you can see we admit there are problems"

Not with yourselves you don't.



No more do doctors admit their contribution to the medmal problem (ie, preventable medical errors), and no more do cops admit their contributions to the police brutality/blue wall of silence problems.

In all three cases, which are abstractly rather similar, fingers are pointed in every direction but one. I'm plugging that hole for the moment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. You just don't get it

Even if you removed every bad teacher from every school, even if you removed all those with low SAT scores, and replaced them with only the brightest and most capable teachers, that still wouldn't solve the problems.

That wouldn't make the kids smarter, or more well behaved. It wouldn't force parents to learn how to raise kids who want to learn. It wouldn't make parents foster a love of reading in their children. It wouldn't improve the curriculum. It wouldn't make lacking materials suddenly appear in classrooms. It wouldn't make teaching to a test go away.

Do you get it now? Our problems are a lot bigger than bad teachers. You are using a teaspoon to drain a lake.

[ChairOne]

165. 9th time....

I agree there are many problems with the educational system. If I am right here and now only focussing on one of them, it is because it is a problem that gets close to no press. There are many other challenging problems with the educational system, which are routinely and ably pointed out. I am only discussing one among many, and that only to ensure it receives a voice.

There are many problems with the educational system

I am at the moment only talking about one of them

Obviously we disagree on the magnitude of the problem I've been discussing. Assuming that you're an educator, that disagreement isn't surprising.

[proud2BlibKansan]

189. This is a problem that gets no press?

What press are you reading? 

[Bouncy Ball]

102. KIDS are getting stupider and stupider?

Ok now I know you aren't for real. You just verified it. If you actually could see past your own opinion of yourself, you'd see how untrue that is. And you haven't been in the classroom for how long? And I'm curious why you left? Did you lose your contract for not being able to get along with your fellow teachers?

Kids are not getting stupider and stupider. How does that work, exactly? Something in the DNA is breaking down? Artificial growth hormones in beef?

LOL

[BikeWriter]

35. Ack! Will you accept a plea bargain for three to five in TDC? :-(

[Skittles]

47. it kills me

I'm in the IT industry and plenty of people say in reference to outsourcing WELL I GUESS I CAN ALWAYS BE A TEACHER. They don't seem to understand that teaching is a CALLING. You cannot just decide to BE one.

That said, get back to me when you work a 12 hour shift and then get paged 13 times before you go back to work. Not many of us have it "easy".

[Bouncy Ball]

51. Who said people outside of teaching have it easy?

I was just pointing out it isn't the freaking picnic some people seem to think it is.

[Skittles]

109. no one said it was easy

I'm just pointing out that very few of us have it easy

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

48. I can totally relate...

Your experience is almost identical to my teaching experience. I did not have to walk my students to cafeteria because they were high school students, but other than that it was exactly the same.

My experience was very stressful. The kids were horrible! They behaved like animals (seriously). After the first quarter, the administration at my school made the terrible decision to force me to take over for a whole different set of classes (two different subjects from what I had been teaching too) because another teacher had quit. I was in first year of teaching and I had just gotten my first set of 160 kids to finally behave some what in class, and it was at this point that they thought it was necessary to make me go through that hell all over again with an even larger group of kids. The new set of kids were very unruly, worse than my first batch. The other teacher had let them do whatever they wanted. My new set of classes were very overcrowded too. I had to make lesson plans on the fly all the time. I didn't have enough textbooks for the kids. I worked at it for about three months to try and get the situation to work, but it just didn't. It was just way too stressful for me. I quit because I just didn't think the money was worth it. The job was driving me insane, and I didn't think it was fair to my family that I had to neglect them because of my job. The funny thing is I probably would still be working at that school if they had allowed me to stay the whole year with my original set of classes. It really put me over the edge, stress wise, when they forced me to switch classes.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

49. BTW

I think the idea of a reality show about what really happens in schools would be great. Maybe people would care more about our education system if they could see just how messed up it really is.

[Yupster]

61. I taught nine years in Texas

There were times I thought it was the worst job in the world and other times I thought it was the best.

Your post brought back memories. I haven't thought of the broken copy machines in years.

One time I lost a shoe breaking up a fight and later found it in a tree.

On the other hand, some of the things you mention I never dealt with. I was a ninth grade history teacher.

I never spent hundreds of dollars on supplies.

Once I got my lesson plans done, I could pretty much change the dates on the pages from year to year.

After my first two years I learned not to have term papers due before a holiday if you don't want to spend your holiday grading papers. I do remember spending Saturday nights at Steak and Egg Kitchen grading my term papers at 3 am though. One time a drunk guy came in about 2 am. I was usually the only one in the place. He looked at me and said, "you a teacher?" I said yes, and he opined, "well I don't like teachers." I think I answered with my great all-purpose teacher phrase of "gosh," which seemed to settle him down.

I was always lucky enough to have only one prep.

I never had to turn any lesson plans in to anyone. If I remember back I think our department head would do a spot check once or twice a year.

On the positive side, I've never since had a job that had the amount of time off that teachers get or the benefit package. In Texas, which is all I know about the Teacher Retirement System pension formula is incredibly generous. It goes

experience X 2.3 = % average three pays

So if you are 60 and have worked 35 years, and make $ 50,000, your pension would be 35 x 2.3 = 80.5 % of $ 50,000 or $ 40,250 per year. That's pretty incredible.

I almost forgot the reason I quit was we got a new principal, and you could see the callouses on his knuckles that came from him reverting to his normal state and brachiating like a gorilla when no one was watching him.

[Bouncy Ball]

68. Well they've started investing the TRS money

in high-risk funds with almost no disclosure to the teachers.

Or even the state board of education.

So, um, I'm not counting on a hefty retirement payment.

Term papers were due on a certain date by district decree, not by my plan. So I had no choice there. Fortunately I didn't stay in that district.

[Rex]

62. First year teacher here, I'm going to start working on my ATC this summer.

For those that say, "those that can't do teach", I say STFU! I've had at least 10 jobs in my lifetime and this is FAR harder than anything I've ever done. IMO, teaching teens is the ultimate challenge. I teach 10th grade world history (some days I just try to maintain order). I work in an extremely poor district and can't believe some of the stories these kids tell me about their home lives.

I've been in the Army, worked for a big telecommunications company, worked the graveyard shift at a gas station - none of them compare to what I'm doing now. I took over for someone else that couldn't cut it (children were to much for him to handle). I have about 140 students and this entire year has been an uphill battle just to assert myself into their lives. This is very hard, I wouldn't recommend it to 99% of the people I meet. 6 hours of sleep has become the norm. I repeat, this is the HARDEST THING I'VE EVER DONE! So think twice before disrespecting teachers - we put up with far more shit then you folks ever will know or need to know about.

[Yupster]

66. Be brave

My first year, I had a wonderful department head (9th grade history) who was an elderly obese African-American woman with a wonderful laugh and a bad heart.

Anyway, her advice to me as a first year teacher was to not even try to learn from it -- just survive it.

She was right. My second year I came in with a discipline plan and the year went wonderfully. It was completely different.

A warning to new teachers. Forget the crap they teach in ed classes. The only important thing your first year is maintaining discipline in the classroom. If you can do that, the teaching part will come easy. If you can't do that, nothing else will matter.

[Rex]

70. Thanks, and that is exactly what I'm doing - just trying to survive!

This sophomore group is a real nightmare - I stepped into it deep! I've also made the mistake of becoming their 'friend' (stupid stupid stupid). Both my parents retired from teaching, my mom had this group in the 6th grade. She told me that in 30 years of teaching, this is the 3rd worst (discipline wise) group she ever taught. Some days these kids totally eat my lunch - some days I eat theirs. It really is a culture shock to me (don't have any kids of my own). I went over to my parents house after the first day and they told me I looked shell shocked!

[Yupster]

79. The "friend" crap

is what my ed classes taught me. Do mixing activities the first day. That kind of crap.

The worst possible advice they could give. I got so mad at those stupid professors who lived amongst the clouds of academia, so far from the real world. My next year, my first day was just explaining and giving examples of the class discipline system. Then I just couldn't wait for an infraction so I could step on it hard. That year went so much better and the kids were so much happier.

I remember the worst feelings that first year were when things went out of control, the good kids would give you this completely defeated look. It killed me. It was those defeated faces that kept me on top of the discipline system the entire second year, even when I was tired and wanted to ease off.

In not such encouraging news, just in the nine years that I taught (1981-90) there was a serious decline in the behavior of the students. The number of girls pregnant exploded, the number of kids arrested doubled and then doubled again. The teachers would say every year, "boy this is a rough group this year," but after seven years of saying the same thing, it appeared more a trend than a rough year. I'm sure things haven't gotten a lot better since I left.

[Rex]

191. I'm personally shocked at how little respect these kids give to adults.

I was one of the bad kids at my HS, so I kinda thought I knew what bad was. Not even close! These kids run around cursing right in front of us! They have NO respect for authority figures, and everything you said (I have 3, 15 year old girls that just had babies) is how it is today. I get those looks to BTW from the good kids, drives me insane too. Also, their grammar & composition skills are HORRIBLE! Even my GT/pre-AP kids have a hard time with syntax and sentence structure. I make them write until their little hands fall off.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

192. I was totally shocked too.

I still am shocked even though I'm no longer working as a teacher. The kids were very, very disrespectful and rude. Their behavior was absolutely appalling on pretty much a daily basis. I frequently overheard kids discussing their stay at "juvie" with their fellow classmates (how classy!). The administration at the school I worked at was very ineffective at backing up the teachers and disciplining the students appropriately, which made the job that much harder. Parental involvement was very low at the school too. Only 15 families showed up for a big FCAT night event the administration planned. The school had over 3000 students at the time.

Almost all the girls had babies. Some had more than one. They all seemed to think having a child automatically meant they were mature, and they would brag quite loudly about their babies (or the fact that they were pregnant) to just about everyone. Where I went to school the girls were ashamed to be pregnant or a teen mom in high school, but these kids were proud of it. Some of the teen moms were actually the most irresponsible, poorly behaved students I had (the rest of the teen moms were among my best behaved and most motivated students). My son was 10 months old at the time I started working as a teacher. Most of my students' children were older than my son. I remember when the kids found out that I had a baby too, one of the girls asked me (or "axed me" as the kids would say)if I knew who my baby's daddy was. She was being completely serious when she asked that question too.

Their skills were also very poor. I taught math. I was really annoyed that most of my Geometry students didn't know the meaning of the words complementary and supplementary toward the end of the third quarter. I know I went over these terms with them on almost a daily basis, and the teacher who was there before me did the same too (I had to switch classes after the first quarter to fill in for a teacher that quit). This means most of my students never paid attention once in class, and they were too lazy to ever do any homework (lots of cheating and copying took place). They weren't learning anything. They couldn't solve any math problems beyond just doing basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, and even then most of them needed a calculator to do these things. As far as Geometry skills go, most of them really weren't much better than my two year old son. He can identify and name most basic geometric shapes (circle, square, rectangle, triangle, etc.), and that's really about all they could do too. It's utterly pathetic when high school students are preforming just a little bit above the level of preschoolers. Oh, also a lot of my students thought I was Canadian because I told them I was from Maine once too, although that has nothing to do with the subjects I taught.

I graduated high school in 1997. It's hard to comprehend why things could be so different less than 10 years later. I think it's really the location. I grew up and went to school in rural Maine, but I worked as a teacher in an urban area in Florida (inner city school). The social atmosphere was just so different. I felt I like was living and working in some awful alternate reality. Anyhow, I quit working at that school after seven months. I had too many awful, stressful experiences there. If I teach again, it will be in a community similar to the one I grew up in. I really could not relate to my students because the environment that I was raised in was so entirely different. They couldn't relate to me either.

[Yupster]

193. In a lighter note,

one day I did a lesson (9th grade history) on the two atom bombs dropped on Japan, and the differences between how the "Little Boy" and the "Fat Man" worked.

After a 45 minute lesson a girl in all seriousness had a question.

Is the little boy still alive today?

A classic line.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. Hey Bouncy

we're FISH at my school too.

Darn! I thought my principal was being so creative :)

Fresh
Ideas
Start
Here

[Arkana]

111. Awesome

Both my parents are teachers--I'm going to make sure they read this. Great rant!

[shugah]

126. i shall decline your invitation

Bouncy Ball - because a) the "teaching" part of teaching probably is relatively easy for the 1/3 or so of teachers who do it because it is the profession they love - that is without the not so easy BS that goes along with being a teacher. if a teacher was free to go into the classroom each day and do what s/he does well, and that was the extent of it - sure! that would be an easy job! but there is all that "other stuff."

and b) PAID WELL???!!!! TEACHERS? PAID WELL??? ROTFLMFAO!!!

i am the offspring of a professional teacher, and that is probably why i would never even consider becoming one myself! i learned too much from an inside source ;-) (plus grew up in poverty.)

just a note - the 1/3 estimate above - based on teacher lore: 1/3 do it because they love the job and are teachers, another 1/3 are the spouses of high(er) wage earners and that makes teaching a great part time job (which in no way precludes that they can be great teachers), and the other 1/3 probably should not be teachers for a variety of reasons but there they are.

[hfojvt]

164. They are paid better than I am

One recently got fired here for sexual misconduct and the paper said he was making about $42,000. I am quite sure I could teach math like he did too.
I did the emergency certification for Missouri and registered at five school districts but never heard from any of them. I do not remember school being as bad as you say. We had few fights, no fires and no leaking roofs. I understand that I might not be able to deal with administrators, parents and students, but that says nothing about the pay. I am sure there are non-monetary rewards as well, that the job is a little bit more satisfying than cleaning a toilet, or running a drill press, or putting nuts on bolts.

[aldian159]

169. The only way I could do it is if I taught AP history, US or Euro

The only thing keeping my US AP History teacher going where the discussions a class like that invokes. However, the pressure from getting 4s and 5s must be hard as well, compounded on everything else.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

174. Who said anyone goes into teaching for the money?

Point that out to me, please.

Maybe people go into it because it's what they want to do, find that the pay compared to the working conditions and responsibilities are WAY out of whack and then say something.

That ok with you? :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

176. This is just "liberal whining"

Schadenfreude is on a hunting expedition at DU....

[Bouncy Ball]

177. Ah, gotcha!

I suspected as much.

[bleedingheart]

175. I spend time volunteering in a schoo and I find it exhausting

to work in the environment that teachers work in. I think they are worth their weight in gold.

[6000eliot]

178. What do you teach, BB?

I teach college, and it's not easy, but I know I don't have it nearly as hard as grade school teachers do.

[IrateCitizen]

180. I'll gladly take you up on this, Bouncy Ball...

Of course, I live in NY where teachers are actually fairly well paid, overall. ;-)

I graduated in 1996 with a degree in civil engineering. Saying that I hate my job and find it to be mind-numbing drudgery would be an understatement. I am the son of two public school teachers and swore up and down that I would never go into teaching. Then, I married a teacher. Now, I'm back in school, pursuing a history degree and teaching certificate.

I also plan to stay on toward a PhD in history for the long run.

Are there personal benefits to teaching? Sure. I want to be able to give my kids the same kind of experience growing up that my parents did -- i.e., being around a lot. I'm not an overly materialistic person, so taking a salary cut isn't that big a deal so long as we still have enough money to live on modestly. But at the least I will be able to feel each day that my job serves a meaningful purpose, even if I have to wade through bureaucratic bullshit each day in order to fulfill this goal.

[Bouncy Ball]

188. Good deal!!!

[GOPBasher]

183. As a teacher, I say, Amen!!!

[LynneSin]

185. I'd rather be a garbage collector or janitor than a teacher

because for the life of god, I don't think I could handle what teachers go through on a daily basis. God Bless all of them (well except that asshole in Brick NJ that threatened a kid for not standing for the pledge).

[Bouncy Ball]

187. My husband once asked me

three days into the school year, why I was so tired. Intead of whacking him, I invited him to go be a teacher.

He said "No way. There'd be bodies piled up in the hallway before lunch. I have zero patience."

LOL!

(BTW, that was years ago, he'd never DARE say "why are you so tired?" at the beginning of the school year now!)

[Spinoza]

190. One of my best (male) friends

is a public high school teacher. Going on 20 years now. While it is true they are not paid very well, the hours simply do not compare to any salaried position today. My buddy has more free time than anyone else I know. I work for myself now, but when I worked for the MAN 50+ hour weeks were standard. You were expected to work during all holidays except July 4, Labor Day, Xmas and New Years. My friends who are NOT teachers still have to put in similar schedules. All the backstabbing, etc you mention is par for the course for ANY job. On the other hand, my teacher pal is home every day by 5:00 p.m., often has to take some work home but at least he is home and not working till 10:00 p.m. in some crappy office like so many have to do; has more holidays then you can shake a stick at, PLUS SUMMERS OFF.
I am sure there is a lot of stress, but that goes with any job nowadays. Give me a break about the hard life of teachers.

[Yupster]

194. There's good and bad, but

the one change I would like to see made is to force teachers back into the social security system. Social security sjould be for all workers, and that should include teachers too.

Currently most teachers in 12 states, including the two biggest ones, California and Texas are not asked to contribute to social security, but have their own much better system instead.

A lot of industries would love that same deal, but they can't get it. Teachers shouldn't be any "specialer" than any other group of workers.

If a kid's dad dies before the kid is 18, we should all gladly pay a little bit toward his upkeep. I don't like the idea that we are all contributing a little bit of our money so he can get a check, except for school teachers. What makes them so special?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

195. Is that an automatic thing?

Do the school district payrolls automatically not take anything out for SS, or do they ask the teachers if they would like to contribute first? I don't remember anyone asking me. I was far too busy to even notice if money for SS was being deducted from my checks, but as far as I remember it was. That would kind of piss me off if nothing was given to SS, because I don't get a pension either...didn't work there long enough. My husband doesn't have a pension plan either. You need to work for 6 years for the state to be vested, and he has no intention of doing that. He's quitting at the end of this year. He has an investment plan for his employer contributions instead. I'll have to check his pay stub tomorrow and see if there are any SS contributions.

[Bouncy Ball]

200. Ha! Yeah TRS is SOOOO wonderful, dude.

They are investing the money in high risk funds right now, with very little transparency even to the BOARD of TRS.

I'm not counting on floating down the Riveria, ok? So don't worry, I won't be richer than you. :eyes:

Besides, any teacher who wants to can have a job on the side or take a sabbatical from teaching and work at a job that DOES pay into SS and thus have that, too. Oh no! Two sources of retirement income!

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

196. I think dealing with adults all day is far easier

than dealing with teens/children. The kids aren't getting paid to be there, but adult co-workers at any other job are.

[Spinoza]

198. YOU COULD BE RIGHT ON THAT POINT.

After all, I have raised 2 kids. Nothing is harder.

[Bouncy Ball]

199. Give you a break, huh?

Give me a break describing the life of some "teacher friend" with all this time off.

My guess is, since you said he's been teaching for 20 years, is that he is simply using the same old tired lesson plans he's been using for years, the same old (probably poorly written) tests he's been using for years and grades papers with the LAR system ("Looks About Right").

So give me a break. Your friend is obviously a slacker teacher. You have those in every profession, too. I know plenty. They do no service to their students.

GOOD teachers constantly work to reflect on their teaching, refine their methods and materials and grade with something a bit more thoughtful than the LAR method, and that takes 60 hours a week plus, AND working (planning, gathering materials and drawing up units) over the breaks. And if he never attends any staff development sessions on his breaks, he's an even crappier teacher, because that definitely means he's using ALL the methods and materials he was first using years and years ago.

The post I wrote to start this thread was what a GOOD teacher does. Not a lazy/crappy/out of date teacher.

[Behind the Aegis]

197. Teaching is EASY!

I am just kidding! :) (ducks for cover). Seems one 'lively' debater is no longer with us...one guess as to who.

BB...you are lucky you are in TX, to some extent. I am just north of you in Okla-Hell-ma. Our teachers can't get out of this state fast enough! We lose some really good people because the pay here is ATROCIOUS! I have always known teachers are underpaid, but when I met a few out here, I was shocked! Some barely make above the poverty level for income!!! Then, to add insult to injury, they are expected to pay for supplies, which become property of the school. And don't dare get sick! In order to save school money, some districts only allow teachers THREE sick days, and anything missed past that...they pay for the sub!

I work in higher education in the administration part and we are shafted too! We are expected to work 40+ hours for salary. The pay is bad, but still better than most teachers.

I really feel for teachers. My mom is one and the problems she has makes me so damn mad. My favorite is how SHE failed them on a test, despite the fact they admit to not studying, but it is my mom's fault! :eyes:

I am sure I don't have to tell you (and the other teachers here}, as bad as it can be, YOU MAKE A DIFFERENCE! Perhaps we will all see the day when entertainers make a teacher's salary, and teacher's make the big bucks many of them deserve!

[fooj]

201. Thanks Bouncy Ball...it's definitely not for the faint of heart!

:pals: