Gannongate Wrinkles Part 5

[EFerrari]

I hope this doesn't discombobulate anyone, but I really need to ask some questions after my digging today. These are the first four threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3144209

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3155132

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3161296

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3196579&mesg_id=3196579&page=

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Uh.. no they're not.

try clicking them

[hiley]

2. just the 4th

is working right now . hmm!

[understandinglife]

3. Links for #s 1-4:

# 4:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3196579&mesg_id=3196579&page=

#3:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3161296

#2:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3155132&mesg_id=3155132

#1:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3144209&mesg_id=3144209

[libertypirate]

4. First three are dead links please repair

[EFerrari]

5. Okay, I need help with those. I'm not that kind of geek. But

have pressing questions. Anyone?

[understandinglife]

7. I've just posted the links for you, see comment # 3. I'll PM them to you.

...so you can cut and paste them into your original thread.

When copying a link from another DU post, if you see a series of "...." at the end of the link you are then only seeing a portion of the link. If you just cut/paste that, then the link, being incomplete, will generate an 'page not found' error.

You should have the PM in a few moments.

Peace.

[seemslikeadream]

8. you must go to the original link and copy it

:hi:

[starroute]

13. Or right-click and use "copy link location"

That's in Firefox -- I think the IE equivalent is "copy shortcut."

[seemslikeadream]

24. Thanks starroute

I didn't know that, sure makes it easier.

[EFerrari]

29. Thanks. Lifelong learner. n/t

[libertypirate]

9. Yeah

Are there any more people that look connected to this?

Who does * have dirt on?

[troubleinwinter]

11. What questions?!

[libertypirate]

6. Must See -- Conspiracy Of Silence

Conspiracy Of Silence


http://www.rense.com/general61/appallingconspiracyof.htm

[merh]

12. You wanted image of jimmy-jeff with a smile.

Noreen

[EFerrari]

19. johnnygosch is taking a long time to load just now. fwiw

[Donailin]

31. I just scrutinized these pics along with the ones that were superimposed

in thread four and all I can say is: Holy. Cow.

Think about it: if Jeff IS Johnny, what would that IMPLY? The implications are enormous, huge, astronmical. really. I see now way how they could lie out of it to save the nameless one, or themselves. It would be the total ruin of the octopus. what agency would NOT be affected?

[merh]

I'm not saying jimmy-jeff and johnny are the same people ---

But, the facial similarities is freaking uncanny! (BTW the more recent photo of Gannon, does that look like a gap in his front teeth?)

[EFerrari]

46. Uncanny is right. Even without all the other stuff. n/t

[EFerrari]

20. Sure. Really painful, isn't it? That's why I'm looking for the words n/

[EFerrari]

10. Sorry for clumsiness. I think the links are working now.

I worked on this today and wanted to share this:

I'm trying to hunt down words written under Jim/Jeff's name. So I can compare them, analyse them in the same way TIA does it with numbers.

I really need the words. If you have any of Gannon's posts or articles, please email them: [e-mail]. (Don't ask :) )

And, from my initial study, it sure looks like the person who wrote JG's posts to FR also wrote Bob Eberle's posts. The grammar, the vocab, the tics, I'm not sure but it sure reads like the same person.

And, I'm going down this road with all of the "articles" and comparing with the postings to JDG's website.

Anyone have a clue, lay it on me. Thanks.

[troubleinwinter]

15. Seems that so much of what was written

by "Gannon" on Talon was just ripped-off plagiarized stuff anyway.

A blogger here on DU did extensive research on the plagiarism (sorry, I forgot blogger's name!). I'm sure you have seen his posts here, or someone will surely know. I think Americablog, maybe Bradblog credited him. Anyway, he must have a big stash of Gannon's writings.

I aggree... Eberle's posts on FR are similar to Gannon's in style.. short, smug.

[EFerrari]

16. troubleinwinter, the painter in my hands already has a conclusion

I'm trying to balance that out.

(For example, today this thought: what if this person has taken on multiple idenities, i.e. even that of the little boy with whom he relates?)

But, my gut doesn't say that.

People have been great about sending me his/someone's words. With my training, it's almost as good as a fingerprint. So.

[troubleinwinter]

23. Found the links! Gannon's plagiarism...

http://whyareweback.blogspot.com/2005/02/how-to-write-like-jeff-gannon-example.html

http://whyareweback.blogspot.com/2003/09/grand-old-plagiarism-usa-archive.html

http://mediamatters.org/items/200501280001

[EFerrari]

26. Thanks! The idea is to find his words/ words published under

his name.

[EFerrari]

27. When was the last time anyone say or spoke to JDG? n/t

[troubleinwinter]

32. I think the last interview with him was

Campbell Brown's? Last weekend? Since then I think he has only been online.

When I hear him speak, he does not seem at all well spoken. His answers in interviews seem very short, scripted and rehearsed. He is coached.

His questions in WH press conferences were written for him, I'm sure.

When HE actually writes blurbs about himself, the writing is clumsy and poorly done.

His 'news' articles seem much more polished (because he plagiarizes them!).

His posts on FR seem like the usual freep shit... and boastful, completely full of himself. Immature.

It is obvious that he has "a handler" somewhere, feeding him his "scoops". He is too stupid to dig up scoops on his own. I'd like to know WHO was down at the Public Records office digging up the property tax info on Dashle... it surely wasn't Gannon who was smart enough to figure out to dig there.

It would be interesting to hear a tape of his radio show. Or maybe not.


:puke:

[intheflow]

38. Thanks, tiw.

I was wondering when he had last been seen, too. Last weekend... that's already 4 or 5 days. I hate to think he's been disappeared or suicided.

[troubleinwinter]

41. He adds his smart-aleck remarks on his site each day.

Just a snotty line or two with links to others' articles. He certainly loves the limelight. So if he has been 'disappeared', some other fake reporter is filling in.

[EFerrari]

44. Maybe, But do we know who is writing those?

That's what got me active in the first place.

The writing on his site and the writing on the FR posts I read looked really different. So, I'm fishing.

[intheflow]

47. I agree with sfexpat2000.

Just because someone is posting over there doesn't mean it's our boy. I think it's strange he hasn't mentioned the Gosch thing. Wouldn't that be the perfect story to slam the left with? I can't believe the rumors of the connection haven't gotten to him yet. And it does sound pretty outrageous if you haven't followed along here.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

50. I just look at the words. How they're arranged, the grammar,

the little flubs, stuff like that adds up.

The Gannon/ Eberle posts to FR at first glance look like they're by the same hand. Same with the articles by both -- but I need a larger sample of both before I can really draw reasonable conclusions.

You guys have been great about getting those to me. Beth

[EFerrari]

42. We all seem to be thinking/feeling the same thought

I mailed him and tried as carefully as possible to encourage him to be careful. Hope it's not read as a threat :(

[understandinglife]

17. You might want to get some of $hrub's 'opening comments' from ...

...some of his (few) press conferences and run the same analysis (as well as his SOTU speeches!!) :evilgrin:

Peace.


BE THE BU$H OPPOSITION;24/7

[EFerrari]

18. So much bulleria, so little time. Exactly right! n/t

[libertypirate]

127. Hey if you are still looking for his work

I have converted it to text files... :)
I will pass it along

[e-mail]

Anyone else?

[EFerrari]

14. And there's another thing I found today.

"Gannon's" articles were scrubbed, right, from Talon. But not from hawaiireporter.com

Who is that? I looked and the site had several Talon-type "reporters" posting. Anyone have clue? Why is that site so out of the loop? Why Hawaii?!

On edit: forget about my questions if they're boring. And just go for it.

[EFerrari]

22. Put another way, do any of you see a difference between

the Gannon on FR, and the Gannon of the new site?

I just wondered if his website isn't serving more than one function. Maybe signalling to multiple players.

:tinfoilhat:

[mordarlar]

21. The word is getting out.

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Number=293395703

[EFerrari]

25. Exactly. And there are variations as well as safety concerns

If this man is in danger -- or his family is -- how to proceed?

Stumped. Not good at getting people in harm's way.

[mordarlar]

28. That link has a another link to a fantastic interview with Noreen.

She said her and DeCamp have interviewed a prisoner thatmay know something about people involved. Someone needs to find out if there is any credible link between Gannon and Aquino.

[EFerrari]

30. A net friend says that Jon Stewart will do a piece on this tonight. n/t

[libertypirate]

35. Hey try this link

I took a couple of wild guesses but I figured it out...

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/list.aspx?s=jeff+gannon

there is a search feature built into that web page.

s=param

lp

[EFerrari]

39. Thanks. Why hasn't this outlet scrubbed this material? nt

[libertypirate]

43. Don't know...

I ran a bot crawler on the site...

I pulled all the

Gannon and Eberle stories

I also have done the same to the conservativeguy site...

I can zip and email later tonight if you want?

[understandinglife]

48. Good for you! I was just about to start gathering all the stuff as...

...its likely to be scrubbed.

Peace.


TBO;24/7

[EFerrari]

49. Thanks, but keep it simple as I'm tech challenged. : )

[libertypirate]

45. Don't know...

I ran a bot crawler on the site...

I pulled all the

Gannon and Eberle stories

I also have done the same to the conservativeguy site...

I can zip and email later tonight if you want?

[Maine-ah]

33. thats some frigged up shit.

:wow:

[elehhhhna]

37. What's up with Noreen's interiew tonight? Where is it?

[Kire]

34. Update on the Gannon College Years.

For back story, go to thread, "Jeff Gannon attended my Alma Mater" by Kire in the Pennsylvania forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=175x3641

---

I got into contact with the faculty advisor for the College Democrats, who is also a History professor who loves to do research about the town and the school (and is running for Mayor now, BTW).

He sent me this reply yesterday:

"Regarding Gannon, by now you probably know that his real name is J. D. Guckert. I cehcked the relevant yearbook and found that he graduated from WCU in 1980, was involved in TKE fraterity, was a resident assistant for two years, played soccer one year and was the sports editor of the Quad. He's from Conneaut Lake PA, wherever that is."

I replied to him with some gentle prodding about finding the sports stories that he wrote in the Quad (the student newspaper, if you couldn't guess), and I got this today:

"The Library has the Quad on microfilm from those years, and as Sports Editor, he probably shows up in most of them. It's worth a look, but I probably won't get to it any time soon (my eyes are really bad as well, so reding microfilm is probably impossible).

While I was in the library yesterday, I met a freelance journalist who was researching the subject. I told him about the Quad on microfilm, so maybe he'll have a look. He said he was composing an article for Vanity Fair."

So, woo hoo! Vanity Fair is on the case!

Warm regards,

Erik Anderson

[intheflow]

58. Thanks, Kire.

Finding a photo of Guckert in college will go a long way in squashing or justifying the rumor mill. I, for one, would feel better if I could lose the nagging Gosch/Guckert/Gannon freakiness from my psyche.

[Blue Gardener]

251. Even if he isn't Gosch

The connection with male prostitutes in both Bush White Houses is just too bizarre. There has to be something going on here, and Gannon/Guckert is right in the middle of it.

[Frederik]

61. Good work

But is that a JAMES D Guckert?

[Kire]

76. via a post on daily kos

guckert told the marines his middle initial was D

this post also mention Guckert's "frat buddies were speculating that he may be CIA, NSA"

Also, on Wikipedia and post #32 in this thread on Arrianna Online, his birth year is 1958, which would make him 22 when JD Guckert graduated from WCU in 1980. This conflicts with the story that he was the 6 yo boy kidnapped in Ohio in 1982 or whatever, but I think that's bunk.

[Kire]

173. professsor mentioned above is running for mayor (story)

Professor at WCU is running for mayor.

It turns out that the current Republican mayor of West Chester was a professor, too, for 38 years. In fact, he was a football coach and Director of Athletics for a time. Now, I don't know when that was exactly, but he was definitely on campus when JD Guckert was the Sports Editor for the school newspaper.

I don't even know why I'm posting this now, because it might jeopardize me getting some of that reward. Oh well. I'll probably just lose it at the track or something.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

281. J.D. Guckert a Big Brother????

http://www.tkema.com/Alumni_Big_Brother_Program.htm

[grumpy old fart]

300. Vanity Fair is on it? Excellent.....eom

[Minstrel Boy]

36. A reminder, Noreen Gosch is interviewed tonight on the Web.

The show airs 7 to 10 Mountain Time, and can be streamed here:

http://www.mysteriesofthemind.com/

If you can't listen live, there's an archive.

[EFerrari]

40. Thanks. Can't say more. Thanks. n/t

[Liberal In Texas]

70. Everyone should know it's a re-run of an interview from last year...

...June 17, '04.

[Minstrel Boy]

75. oh oh - thanks

I haven't been able to connect.

[Liberal In Texas]

87. I'm listening. Interesting, but nothing new.

So far, a rehash of what happened to her son and the stone wall the cops put up in front of the investigation.

[Liberal In Texas]

51. There is one way to prove his identity > DNA

It would take a professional investigator.

He would have to see if Gosch's mother still has any of his old clothing around. Say a sweater or jacket with strands of hair.

Then, somehow, some of Gannon/Guckert's DNA would have to be collected, probably clandestinely. Almost anything would do, fingernail clippings, hair clippings, etc.

[Frederik]

53. They could as well use the mother's DNA.

[Liberal In Texas]

56. That's true.

And welcome to DU, Fredrik.

[Frederik]

62. Thanks!

[Catherine Vincent]

65. Any volunteers to collect Gannon's DNA?

:-)

[nonny]

66. LOL

[Swamp Rat]

68. Ack!

:puke:

[Andy_Stephenson]

115. Ummm err if someone...

pays the fee...I might be convinced to do it...

Tell me I didn't just say that!

:hi:

[elehhhhna]

259. JD's DNA is available for $1,200. per weekend

[Coloradan4Truth]

52. NBC - Story tonight about sexual predators of children

Did anyone else notice the short story on NBC nightly news "Feds crack down on sexual predators" about how 5000 sexual predators of children have been arrested in 20 months, many deported. I found it interesting that one comment was "these predators come from all walks of life" they listed policemen, teachers... but not politicians.

I just found the timing odd.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7080579/

[intheflow]

57. I likewise found the "Porter Goss complains of hard job" timing odd.

"This job is hard," says Goss. "I didn't know the CIA was into so many illegal activities!" :eyes:

/sarcasm

Really, though, if a story about sexual predators rings bells, then so too must a story about a CIA director who publicly breaks a sweat. And then Bush "reassuring" the CIA today--to cheers--away from reporters. Everything sounds ominous within the world of this thread.

*edited for clarity.

[elehhhhna]

261. Don't forget that Tenet announced his book is "on hold", just yesterday

[starroute]

54. Has anyone checked into the Minnehaha Young Republicans?

This has to do with the Gannon/Thune connection. I posted about it last weekend on a thread called "RAWSTORY: "Reporting’ by ‘Jeff Gannon’ was entered into Congressional..." " but as far as I know, nobody who's up on the South Dakota end of things has checked it out.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3185176#3188445

The short version is that Raw Story reported that a Gannon article claiming that Tom Daschle had supported partial privatization of the Federal Aviation] Administration had been read into the Congressional Record by Senator Craig Thomas of Wyoming.

I went Googling and found that the same article had also been reprinted at a site called "Inside South Dakota" which included many anti-Daschle articles:
http://www.sdakotagop.com/newsdetail.asp?iNewsID=202

I then got curious about why a site that claimed not to be affiliated with the Republican Party should have the URL www.sdakotagop.com, so I looked further and found this:
http://www.southdakotaelections.com/Story.cfm?Type=Election&ID=1822

South Dakota Republican Party Chairman Randy Frederick was concerned because the Web site’s name is similar to the party’s official Web site and because Tapio, who is listed as treasurer of the Young Republicans, might run for office. Frederick said Tapio was blurring the lines of a candidacy and its connection with the Republican Party, whose Web site is www.southdakotagop.com . The Young Republicans’ site – sdakotagop.com – espouses the Ronald Reagan philosophy of limited government and family values. The group also has purchased advertisements critical of Daschle, a South Dakota Democrat who is up for re-election in 2004.

And I further found this:
http://www.soundbitten.com/archives/week_2005_02_20.html

Editor & Publisher features a new piece on the man called Bulldog today. In it, Guckert/Gannon offers an explanation for his sudden interest in the South Dakota senatorial race between Democratic incumbent Tom Daschle and Republican challenger John Thune. "But Guckert said no one in the Republican Party or Thune's campaign directed him to cover the campaigns. 'I looked at the Senate races, and that was going to be the most interesting,' Guckert said. 'When I looked at the background, I started looking at the Argus Leader, and it didn't look right.'"

Right...

On June 3rd, 2003, Neal Tapio, former treasurer of the Minnehaha County Republicans and a temporary Republican candidate for Senator in the South Dakota race, issues a press release that criticizes the Argus Leader's coverage of Daschle. On June 5th, 2003, Guckert/Gannon writes his first piece about Daschle. It specifically mentions Tapio's press release, and it focuses exclusively on the Argus Leader's coverage of Daschle.

One person responded to my posts by saying they thought they'd previously seen that last quote at The Nashua Advocate. But that quote only mentions Tapio and not the sdakotagop.com site. So I'm still really curious about the site -- especially since when I looked at it last Sunday, almost all the pages had been modified that same day.

What is the connection of the Minnehaha Young Republicans to the Gannon saga and to the unresolved question of how Gannon got drafted to be a resident expert on the Daschle/Thune campaign?

[EFerrari]

55. Really GOOD question. PM Nashua Advocate. He'll want to know.

I've got to go feed folks & will be back.

[nonny]

59. More photos Gannon/Gosch

Opacity set at 100% 80% 65% 50% 30% 15% 0%
1st picture from flyer http://www.childsearch.org/john_gosch.html
Last picture is smiling Gannon -- flipped

>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Catherine Vincent]

63. Woh! That one is even more believable than your previous one.

[Donailin]

64. oh holy crap.

:::goosebumps:::

why on earth can't noreen just confirm or deny for crying out loud? Andy spoke with her, no? This shit is too unreal. . .

[intheflow]

82. Unbelievable.

:wow: I am almost officially living in a tin foil house now. This is freaking me out.

Can't wait for Noreen's interview. Am impatient for Kire's research about Guckert's college photos.

[Donailin]

83. I can't gain access to the show.

Please, if you hear it post what she said!

Thank you kindly!

[intheflow]

89. It's a re-run.

See Post #70 in this thread. :(

[Liberal In Texas]

90. check my posts 70, 87. n/t

[Old and In the Way]

102. I was totally skeptical on the connection.

But these photos are most interesting....a most incredible coincidence if it doesn't pan out.

[mordarlar]

110. Thank you nonny.

[Catherine Vincent]

60. Thanks SF for starting a new thread.

I saw where you were begging for a new one to start. But you didn't have to ask.

We got to keep this going.

[Swamp Rat]

69. Thank YOU cat_girl25!

:hug:

[Donailin]

67. ALRIGHT! Who knows the name of the guy from NASA who scrutinized

the wire on Bush's back during the debates??

Can he or someone like him scrutinize these stunning photos of Gannon Gosch from post #59?? We obviously need a professional right quick. We need to know for sure one way or the other so we can move forward with this or stop barking up the wrong tree.

[Donailin]

71. OK, I just looked it up

it is one Dr. Robert Nelson from NASA who scrutinized the president and came out with his pronouncement in Slate that he was wired. He's a photo anaylst. I just sent an email based on the address of his webpage and it came back mailerdaemon.


http://www-691.gsfc.nasa.gov/personnel/bnelson/bnelson.html
who can help here??

[SoCalDemGrrl]

72. JPL/NASA Scientist Robert M. Nelson (see link)

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/11/10_407.html

[Donailin]

77. I need a valid email address

dang. or should we ask David Lindorph of Mother Jones?

[SoCalDemGrrl]

73. He's in Pasadena - remember reading that he contacted the LA Times

regarding Bush's bulge since he lives in So Cal.

[Donailin]

78. are you sure?

http://www-691.gsfc.nasa.gov/personnel/bnelson/bnelson.html


according to this link, he lives like ten miles from me in Greenbelt, MD.

Or do I have the wrong guy? I am so outta my field here. I should be cleaning the kitchen but I can't drop this, it's KILLING ME!

[Donailin]

79. Im wrong, your right. It's Robert M, not N

ok brb.

[Donailin]

81. OK, here it is

[e-mail]

I sent him an email, it was succinct and to the point, didn't give too much info lest I come across as whacko. I figure there's a 1 in 100 chance he won't delete the mail.

I suck at this shit. I hope someone else will email him also.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

84. Great! Hope he answers.. it would be good to know whether to pursue this

further. However the photoshopped images are giving me the creeps too. The eyes and the cleft in the chin are SO similar.

[merh]

153. Check out Johnny's father's photo in post 141 below!

Include that one too. The eyes....

[SoCalDemGrrl]

80. Here's his email - check the info below

For full consideration, the application package should be submitted by August 1 to the DPS Chair, Dr. Robert M. Nelson, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, MS 183-501, Pasadena, CA 91109, USA, or the materials can be sent by e-mail to [e-mail]. Notification of grants to those meeting the above deadline will be well before the abstract deadline, for those who may wish to receive notification before submitting an abstract. Late applications for travel support may be considered if funds are available.


http://www.aas.org/~dps/MAIL_ARCHIVE/dpsm.00-13

[elehhhhna]

263. could be Pasadea, TX, near NASA

[troubleinwinter]

88. I doubt you want the NASA guy

I think you want a forensics photo analyst... those people that measure peoples' faces. The NASA guy is more an expert on the features of Mars!

[seventythree]

100. think you are right

[Donailin]

101. now ya tell me.

look, I have a day job and I aint quittin!

[SoCalDemGrrl]

104. Donailin, I agree with your instincts,the JPL guy could be valuable

and he obviously is interested in seeing the Bush fraud unveiled.. so it's a good idea to at least give it a try.

[roseBudd]

74. Here is J. D. Guckert at work at his former job painting trucks

http://www.karmakinc.com/

Reference USA lists JD Guckert as a manager with a corporate location of 5-9 employees, a small ad (probably Yellow Pages) in 2000

and look at that bald headed guy below



POSTAL ADDRESS:
511 South Bolmar Street
West Chester, Pennsylvania
19382



PHONE NUMBER:
610.918.3752



FAX NUMBER:
610.918.3759

[Donailin]

85. can you post the direct link?

the one provided is the main page. I'd like to see that pic enlarged

[roseBudd]

97. It is that size on the web site. I can tell it was scanned from a print

piece. That is the aboutus page on that site.

[New Earth]

112. i don't think that is him

he might be bald, but that guy is too short and pudgy-like to be Gannon - and his face is too wide, rather than long, as Gannon's is.

[roseBudd]

253. Gannon is only 5'8", his escort photos are from 1999

and there is no way to tell from such a small photo. The way to find out is to visit Karmak Inc. in Westr Chester, and ask the employees. It is a lot more likely that Reference USA listing J D Guckert as an employee of Karmak Inc. truck painters is Gannon, than that Gannon is Gosch. Gosch is probably dead.

[roseBudd]

254. Plus Gannon's aol profile said Where I work: wepainttrucks.com

same line of work. J D Guckert attended West Chester University.

[micromicro]

86. It looks like Guckert is not Gosch!

From post 34

"Regarding Gannon, by now you probably know that his real
name is J. D. Guckert. I cehcked the relevant yearbook and
found that he graduated from WCU in 1980, was involved in TKE
fraterity, was a resident assistant for two years, played
soccer one year and was the sports editor of the Quad. He's
from Conneaut Lake PA, wherever that is."

From a post on Kos on Feb 19

Classmates.com (none / 0)

Just for fun I did a search on Classmates.com.  A Jim Guckert
graduated from Conneaut Lake High School in Conneaut Lake, PA
in 1975.  Conneaut Lake is in western PA, near Ohio.  Not sure
it means anything, but hadn't seen this before.  Also, a quick
search of his classmates reveals a Randy Rhodes.  A
coincidence (and spelled differently) but still a funny one.

by sharkbite on Sat Feb 19th, 2005 at 21:14:09 PST

This must be Gannon/Guckert - we know for a fact that he is a
member of the TKE fraternity.  The timelines match up for a 47
year old Guckert.

[intheflow]

91. Timeline may match, but has anyone seen him?

Have any people who knew him back then come forward? We know he uses aliases. How do we know he hasn't "borrowed" an identity?

Even if he's not Gosch--and I admit it really unlikely--we still don't have any kind of photographic proof. One small photo from a web site within the last 5 years could be an attempt to give him a "legitimate" identity by establishing a (shallow) history.

[Donailin]

93. If you check out the original post, it seesm that Vanity Fair is on the

case. I'm at least glad to know that an actual reporter is doing what they're supposed to: a month after the fact. sheesh.

[intheflow]

96. I know!

The referencing of blogs who report rumors from other blogs makes my inner research librarian scream. :argh:

[Gelliebeans]

223. you know that got me thinking so

If he assumed an identity by taking the name of a deceased person.

I went to the social security death index and I pulled up a James Guckert
I copied and pasted this straight from the index (I blocked out the ss number) but I have it FWIW

name:JAMES GUCKERT

born:12 Jan 1922

died:Nov 1983

last residence:(not specified)

last benefit address: 99701 (Fairbanks, Fairbanks North Star, AK)

social security number: XXX-XX-XXXX

state issued:Ohio
BTW I also looked up various names including JD Guckert, Johnny Gosch,Jeffrey Gannon

[intheflow]

229. Interesting.

If he is Gosch, then this Guckert's death and social security would be available for some future Gannon/Guckert to use.

On the other hand, it says nothing about the West Chester, PA college Guckert who is/would be 47 years old, the person Gannon claims to be.

:shrug:

[loritooker]

290. This Guckert died the same year Johnny Gosch was abducted?? nt

[roseBudd]

268. Actually Karmak Inc. had a Yellow Pages ad in 2000 and they listed...

J D Guckert as the manager and J D Guckert put he paints trucks on his aol home page. This is not the CIA.

[Donailin]

92. welcome to DU MicroMicro

and thatnks for pointing out the obvious (to everyone but me)

and my kitchen is a mess at 10:08.

I'm gonna throw the damn computer out the window now.

[micromicro]

95. Me too!

I have been following this and it has kept me from doing real work. I hope we can put this aspect of the Gannon saga to rest.

[Catherine Vincent]

98. "I hope we can put this aspect of the Gannon saga to rest."

You wish!

[The Magistrate]

99. There Is No Evidence Whatever, Ma'am

Connecting the abducted boy to Guckert. None.

"The greatest of follies is passionate belief in the palpably untrue. It is the chief occupation of mankind."

[Catherine Vincent]

105. Look, if it turns out that these two are not related then I will be

satisfied. But it has come to a point that I would have to hear it from Gannon or Ms. Gosch. So no matter how many times you come in here and tell us there is no evidence, it won't work.

I don't know why Gannon won't just admit on his website that he isn't Gosch and end it.

[The Magistrate]

113. Since, Ma'am, There Is No Serious Allegation He Is

Why on earth would he bother to comment on it at all?

Besides, if he denied it, it would not be accepted by the promotors of this: it would be taken as proof he was still controlled by his Masters in the Dark Order....

[Catherine Vincent]

119. If Gannon can assert that a writer wants his sex then he can comment

on this topic. If he accuses a writer of being a drunk on the sly, then he can comment on this topic. And if it is denied by him and some here want more proof, then there's is no controlling that. You and Gannon will have to accept it.

Were you a moderator during the first wrinkle thread? I remember when it was locked the first mod said it has served it's usefulness or something like that. Then the second mod came on and said it's okay to start another one. I'm guessing you were the first mod.

[New Earth]

120. holy cow!

:o thanks, i was gonna say that once but i didn't have the guts :hi:

oh, and catgirl, it was 'this discussion has run it's course'...

yup, sure has! 4 threads later......

(waits for 'deleted message, name removed') :scared:

[Catherine Vincent]

135. Thanks Faye!

Hopefully we'll find out the truth.

[The Magistrate]

122. What Connection Is There Between The Three Things, Ma'am?

Many men of the right are quite convinced that an "uppity woman" only needs a bit of tumesence to calm her back to docility, and allegations a journalist is a drunk are as old the trade itself. Denying you were kidnapped at age twelve, used as a sex slave by prominent Republicans as part of a government agency's production of mind-control slaves at the behest of The Illuminati is something else again.

The other point was a mild address of the standard of "proof" in matters such as this. If you might satisfy my idle curiousity, Ma'am, what would you accept as proof there was no identity between the two individuals you seem to believe are in fact one and the same?

Finally, Ma'am, why are joining me to this Guckert creature, in a statement that "You and Gannon will have to accept it"...?

"For the Snark was a Boojam, you see...."

[Must_B_Free]

205. are you denying this

"part of a government agency's production of mind-control slaves"

Are you denying that the government has tried to produce mind control slaves?

[The Magistrate]

208. Again, Sir

Show me proof the government has operated for at least the last quarter century a program of kidnapping children to be subjected to sexual abuse by Republican big-wigs, such abuse being the means by which they are made into mind-controlled slaves to be provided later to the Republican Party as low-grade political tricksters. That is the claim at issue here, and no other claim has any particular bearing on it.

[Must_B_Free]

236. Be careful to notice that

I am not going as far as to make the assertion you are attempting to entice me to support.

My suggestion is that we have tangible evidence of activities have been conducted by the government that:
1. display similar disregard for the well-being of the subjects on whom the experiments were perpetrated
2. have similar goals to that which you are attempting to steer readers from through the use of ridicule.

[The Magistrate]

240. The Assertion, Sir

Is the one made by the promotors of the identity of the unfortunate young Mr. Gosch, and the unsavory creature Guckert. My only interest in the matter is to oppose that. If you feel some need to convince me governments often act with disregard for individual persons in pursuit of what they consider more important ends, that work has already been done for you long ago, possibly even before you were born, as your age is unknown to me. But that has no bearing whatever on the allegations being made in this matter, which are fairly described in my summary. If that strikes you as the use of ridicule, that is unfortunate, and nothing to do with me.

[Must_B_Free]

246. Lets break down the language of your assertion

1. the government
2. has operated for at least the last quarter century
3. a program of kidnapping children
4. to be subjected to sexual abuse
5. by Republican big-wigs,
6. such abuse being the means by which they are made into mind-controlled slaves
7. to be provided later to the Republican Party
8. as low-grade political tricksters.

1. "The government" is a nebulous term in ways, it is about as specific as the ominous "they" or "them". As far as I am aware, the proposed hypothesis is that it is a criminal organization that has some form of presence among the government.
2. The suggestion that this is a continual operation or effectively a "yearly crop" that is seeded, is your own.
3. certainly we know that criminal organizations or individuals have been and are kidnapping children, evidenced by statistics.
4. Sexual abuse is an induced trauma.
5. "Republican Big Wigs" is similarly nebulous as "the government".
6. "Mind controlled slaves" is a less plausible way to describe spies or operatives.
7. Again attribution of a smaller ring of conspiracy to a large body, thereby making it implausible.
8. "Low-grade" and "trickster" are words that support an intent of derision of anyone investigating these views. Is Karl Rove a "High-grade" "trickster" then?

Asto the plausibility of the hypothesis - certainly, with the established intents of spying and political manipulation, blackmailing, etc., one does not have to make a huge stretch to estimate the usefulness of operatives for assignments involving sex for the purposes of payment, blackmail, or establishing dependency.

In summary, I am proposing that the semantics of your prose are suggestive of your intent. For example, it would be derisional of me to accuse people of believing in "little green men from mars" as opposed to "the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe".

[The Magistrate]

248. By All Means, Sir

Differentiate for me between a criminal gang with some form of presence among the government from the government itself, when the allegations extend to claims that local and federal officials are involved at every level, and that a President of the United States is involved in the activity. You would be well advised, Sir, to actually read the claims made on the sites linked to in promotion of this specualtion as demonstrating its factual nature.

Any activity which in a specific alleged instance commences in the early eighties of the last century and bears an identifiable fruit today can only be described as on-going program. If it were a successful one, it would hardly be confined to a single instance.

We certainly do not know from statistics that there is any organized kidnapping of children. There are certainly individual instances of it. In the greatest proportion of these unfortunate occurances, the child is quickly killed after sexual gratification is achieved by the predator. There have been several instances come to light over the years where a kidnapper, usually of a very young child, has kept it alive for years, always in conditions of great social isolation.

You may provide yourself some indication what signifigance attaches to the formulation "sexual abuse is an induced trauma." Other than sounding vaguely clinical, it conveys no particular import to me.

The whole body of allegations contained in the sites cited in support of these speculations include claims that Republican Party political figures ranging up to a then-Vice President of the United States were involved in the sexual abuse of children provided by and to them in this manner, and for that purpose.

The allegations specifically state mind-control slaves; it is not my coinage. If you do not like it, your quarrel is not with me. The claim is that these persons are incapable of doing anything but what they are directed to do by their handlers. As a practical matter, of course, that would be pretty unwieldy, but again, that is not my problem, but the problem of those making the claims my summary fairly characterizes.

Guckert certainly is a Republican Party operative, and if he is really the unfortunate youth from Iowa emerged from the alleged program, than how else would you characterize the state of affairs besides that he was supplieds by this program to the Republican Party as an operative?

What else would you describe his activities as other than low grade tricks? He pretends to be a reporter; he may have been trolling for black-mail opportunities. That, Sir, is pretty low grade work, and work done by tricksters. Real agents manage the people who do things like that.

After this tedious exercise, Sir, you may forgive me for prefering my own formulation of the matter: it has fewer syllables, offends none of Mr. Twain's strictures in his famous Veterinary College lecture on good prose style, and is over-all much the preferable form. You will find me sticking to it, or close variants thereof, in any future engagements on this line it may please me to indulge in.

"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightening and a lightening bug."

[earth mom]

204. Thank you! :) I was wondering at the purpose of his post! eom

[The Magistrate]

209. And What Is The Purpose Of My Comments, Ma'am?

[New Earth]

108. there is a lot you don't know, sir

:) :hi:

[The Magistrate]

114. If You Say So, Ma'am

Lord knows my ignorance is legend in these parts....

"There were only three men who ever understood the whole of that affair: one is dead, another gone mad, and myself, I have quite forgot the details."

[New Earth]

103. absolutely not

not gonna do it :hi:

sorry, one post on a Kos blog doesn't put an end to the whole thing.

[blue northern]

94. that doesn't quite settle it for me

I'm getting a little freaked by the larger tangential things i've read about in this thread.....even if g/g isn't gosch
and i'm not convinced by your post he isn't
my mind's been :nuke:
part of me wishes i never found this thread and the rest can't stop reading

[elehhhhna]

264. Same here. Do I bust out the Reynolds Wrap or turn off the computer...?

[SoCalDemGrrl]

106. I don't buy it- Guckert certainly doesn't look 47 ys old, it's possible

he assumed the identity of this Guckert fellow from PA. Until we can see a photo from the 1980 yearbook and it's a match with JG/JG, we should pursue the Gosch angle.

[lies and propaganda]

157. i disagree

if he is a gay man, which i believe him to be, he would be a dime a dozen. Older, attractive, fit, bald guy, I totally see him being 47. but i suppose it is all relative to ones experiences.

[blogslut]

185. What does 47 look like?

I'm 45. I stayed out of the sun and used a good moisturizer. I don't have any discernable wrinkles, jowls or eye bags...yet.

I once had a carnie guess my age. He got it wrong. I won a picture of a unicorn.

[elehhhhna]

265. Maybe he does my old trick --tell 'em you're older than you are, so

people tell you how FANTASTIC you look. Works every time. I did this until I really turned 45. There's a limit, after all.

[Liberal In Texas]

273. I agree, this "looking" like one's age is deceiving.

I, too, fooled a barker at the fair on an age guessing thing. I was in my late 40's, probably around 48 or 49. He guessed I was 35, I had to show him my drivers license, he was totally amazed.

So, I don't take much stock in what his age may be from photographs. I've seen people in their late 30's that looked late 50's. It depends on genetics, how hard a life one has put their body through, and even perhaps plastic surgery.

Also in this thread, there has been mention that there is no proof that Goesch wasn't killed right after his kidnapping. Actually there is. It is testimony taken by the committee investigating the Franklin Cover-Up from witnesses who saw Johnny being used by the child sex-ring. Without going into detail, I'll just refer back to John DeCamp's book.

(DeCamp is a Republican from Nebraska, attorney, and former state senator.)

Everybody who is reading this thread who curious about the facts, should find the book and read it. I found mine at a used book store (even signed, ironically enough, by Ted Gunderson!), it still available through Amazon as well.

That said, it's a fascinating background of the abuse of power, money, and the sex trade in Nebraska, Chicago, and D.C. 15 to 25 years ago. But is there a connection to today? Did it all end back then? If it didn't, there is a deep dark fetid underbelly to our government that needs to be uncovered.

Possibly the connection is Gosch morphing into Gannon. Perhaps he was used in all the intervening years as a lure and a reward to entrap public officials for purposes of blackmail. Perhaps he turns up as a shill in the press room in a vainglorious attempt to assure softball questions would be asked allowing the President to answer with a prepared agenda.

I can imagine it now, one of the top advisors or somebody ordering a staffer to, "Get one of our good looking boys and turn him into a reporter. Someone who will do exactly what we tell him to do."

So far, there is no hard scientific evidence that Gosch/Gannon are the same. Without DNA comparison, they're may never be. However, indictments and convictions in courts of law have been made by circumstantial evidence alone.

Finally, if this can be all tied back to the Franklin affair, I don't see how the main stream press can ignore it.

[troubleinwinter]

280. "Did it all end back then?"

One bit of proof that it did not ALL end back then is the recent arrest of George Paul Bishop for possession and sale of child pornography.

Noreen Gosch positively identified his photo as the same Paul Bishop who posed (or was) the CIA/FBI agent who sat in her kitchen over a period of a year 'assisting' with the Johnny case and accompanied her during her congressional testimony on the case.

[Liberal In Texas]

282. My question "did it all end back then?" does not refer to

the on-going problem of child pornography, but rather the involvement of government officials in that and the sex trade; especially when it involves children. Franklin gives us a glimpse that there were government officials in high positions involved, identified by witnesses.

Is that still ongoing? That's what the question is.

[troubleinwinter]

298. My question about Bishop is:

WAS (IS) he actually CIA / FBI, as he claimed to be. He DID escort Noreen into the congressional hearing, sat next to her and vouched for her to the congress.

Perhaps Andy may have a 'take' on this.

????

[Andy_Stephenson]

299. She gave a positive ID on him from

the recent story in regards to his arrest. Here is what she sent me...

Below is a brief outline of how I came to meet George Paul Bishop and what took place between 1983 and the fall of 1984. I thought it might be helpful for you to have this information. I took this from a chapter in my book which explains it all. I have this written in a time line of how the events transpired.



There is reference to a man named Paul Bonacci also in this accounting. He confessed to his part in Johnny's kidnapping in 1988 and also named Sam Soda as explained in this material.



Regards... Noreen



__________________________________________





April 1983, six months after the kidnapping of my son, a young man identifying himself as George Paul Bishop contacted me by phone. He told me an international kidnapping/pornography ring had taken my son. I asked, “how do you know that to be true, can you prove it!” He replied, “ I work for a government agency which is investigating pedophile organizations. And there are indicators in your case that suggests your son was taken by such an organization. We feel he is being used for pornography and prostitution.” All clues were pointing to the kidnapping being organized and not that of a “lone criminal”. I found it difficult to believe and accept that my son could have been targeted by such an organization. It was only in later years, I was to learn the possible reason Johnny was selected.



THE SECOND KIDNAPPING

I received a phone call from Sam Soda, local private investigator. He claimed to have valuable information for me and wanted to meet as soon as possible. We arranged to meet at his office the evening June 13, 1984. This was another of the tons of calls from people trying to help, I had no idea if his information was something I could use or not. Many of the leads turned out to be nothing. But I accepted the meeting with him.



I brought a tape recorder along and placed it on the table. Sam raised no objection to being taped. During this meeting, he disclosed information about a “second kidnapping in Des Moines”. He claimed this came from an informant. The kidnapping was to occur on the second weekend in August, on the South Side of Des Moines and that it would be another paperboy. I thought it strange that he would be telling me this and not the police. When I questioned him on this point, he claimed that I should be the one to take the information to the Des Moines Police, as it would be their jurisdiction. I thanked him for the information and left. I thought that if this information were on the level… it would be a chance to prevent another kidnapping. I believed him but still questioned why he told me and not the police.

I went the very next day to the Des Moines Police Dept., asking if I could play the tape of the meeting with Mr. Soda for them. The uniformed officer at the front desk would not allow me to talk to a Detective, he insisted, “If they felt my information was of importance they would call me”. Repeatedly, I told him that I had a tape recording and in a couple of months, there would be another paperboy kidnapped. They treated me as though I had lost my mind and didn’t want to be bothered with me. I was shocked, my son was kidnapped and they were rejecting information to prevent another crime.

When I left the Police Dept., I contacted WHO, WOI & KCCI TV station program managers. I did speak to each of them and relayed the information, telling them I also had a tape recording of this conversation. I was shocked to find out that even though they listened to me, no one wanted to listen to the tape. I was very uneasy about the whole situation and felt that Mr. Soda had given me important information. Someone needed to take it seriously. I contacted Frank Santiago, Des Moines Register reporter, who had been assigned to Johnny’s story since the beginning. He was the only one who really listened to the information. He asked if I had been to the police. I told him “yes and to the TV stations”. He showed concern and then thanked me for the information.



Paul Bishop, CIA Asset made a short trip to Des Moines, July 31, 1984. It was at this time, he reported the name of the man who was the “spotter”…. Sam Soda in Johnny’s kidnapping. Paul explained that a spotter is the person who secures a photo of a victim prior to a kidnapping. Years later in 1991, I learned from Private Investigator Roy Stephens, that Paul Bonacci, (who participated in Johnny’s kidnapping) positively identified a photo of Sam Soda as the man, who brought photos of Johnny to the kidnappers, who stayed in a motel room in West Des Moines, on September 4, 1982, the night before the kidnapping.



When Paul spoke his name, I said, “Paul, you need to listen to this tape.” I played recording of my meeting with Sam Soda. He listened…I then told him of my attempts to share the information with the police department and media. Paul was not shocked at what he heard on the tape and paid a visit to Sam Soda, questioning him concerning the source of the information on a second kidnapping. Sam was not too cooperative, became annoyed with Bishop, asking him to leave his office. There is indication today that these two individuals knew each other prior to this time.

Before Paul left Des Moines, he created a very intricate map of the Johnny’s crime scene, indicating time sequence of each aspect of the kidnapping. Paul dated and initialed the map using GPB (George Paul Bishop)

After Paul flew back to Washington, I began to hear from Sam Soda on a regular basis. He wanted to be the investigator for Johnny’s case. He asked for a bank account to be set up for him to draw upon for a salary. I explained to him, we already had a private investigator and could not afford another. He continued to attempt to be involved in any way he could on the case.

I think this suggests how intricate are the manipulations of those involved in the kidnapping and exploitation of children like Johnny. Eventually, I had reports from not only Paul Bishop but also Paul Bonacci (See Bonacci chapter) implicating Sam. What better way for them to keep track of my progress in this case than to plant someone in our very midst? To this very day no police agency has ever conducted a thorough investigation of Sam Soda’s alleged participation in Johnny’s case.

During this time, I had also been working with Senator Grassley from Iowa, he had been particularly helpful in facilitating with the FBI. Many times Paul Bishop would call me from Senator Grassley’s office, when finished speaking with me, he would hand the phone to one of Grassley’s aides who I was familiar with…That convinced me Paul was an accepted visitor on the hill in Washington. A short time later, I received my invitation to testify in Washington D.C. before Senator Arlan Specter’s Hearing on Organized Crime and its Relationship to Kidnapping. Senator Grassley’s office made all of my arrangements

I was instructed by Senator Grassley’s office to Federal Express a copy of my testimony and to carry a copy on the plane when I flew to Washington D.C. In testifying before Congress or State Legislature, you are required to prepare a written presentation of your testimony. Paul Bishop met the plane and escorted me to the hotel. I checked in and then he took me on a tour of Washington, followed by showing me some of the blighted places in D.C., where children as young as ten years old, hang out on the streets late at night. Today those blighted areas include places like the White House Mall at night. Even Congressmen are not safe on the steps of the Capitol.

Later that evening, Paul and I spent time going over every word of my testimony. I wanted to be sure that when I presented my information the following morning that it was clear to the committee, “an Organized Pedophile Group” took my son. Again and again, I have met with denial on the part of individuals and organizations that any such groups could exist in this country. For my protection, two men, dressed in suits were posted outside of my hotel room door all night. A major disturbance occurred downstairs in the lobby during the night, the police were called and arrested the man causing the problem. I have no idea if it was related to me.

The following morning, Paul Bishop, accompanied by two men arrived at the hotel to drive me to the Capitol for the Hearing. The bodyguards accompanied us always a few steps behind us. They were dressed well but business causal rather than suits. Paul looked very polished wearing a dark brown suit. As I entered the room, I noted there were reporters everywhere from ABC, NBC, CBS television, radio, newspaper and magazine. I recognized Special Agent Kenneth Lanning, a member of the Behavioral Science Unit of the FBI Training Division at Quantico, VA, I walked towards him, saying, “Hello, I am Noreen Gosch”, extending my hand to shake his. He pulled back and said, “We know who you are”. With that statement there was a definite chill in the air. It was as though the FBI resented me being asked to testify.

Paul sat beside me at the table, the two bodyguards blended into the background, as I testified to my knowledge of the slave auctions in the U.S. During my testimony, Senator Specter asked a number of questions about my son’s kidnapping and the investigation. I explained, the FBI refused to enter the case, because they wanted me to prove my son’s life was in danger. The lack of response from the local authorities created the need for private investigators.

At this hearing were books made available by the FBI showing children in a mail order type catalog, and offering them for sale. How much more needed to be proven about the existence of organizations national and international that

Before Paul left Des Moines, he created a very intricate map of the Johnny’s crime scene, indicating time sequence of each aspect of the kidnapping. Paul dated and initialed the map using GPB (George Paul Bishop)



My schedule was so tight, I flew immediately back to Des Moines to meet with the crew from ABC 20/20. The following day, Karen Burnes and the film crew from 20/20 arrived in town. It was a beautiful Saturday and the second weekend in August. They filmed locations around Des Moines and West Des Moines, including the site where Johnny was kidnapped. Later when we arrived back at our home. I decided to share the information regarding a second kidnapping, supposed to occur the following day. I played the Sam Soda tape recording for Karen and shared how I had been to the Des Moines Police Dept., telling her of the reaction I received. I had hoped they would at least patrol the paper drop areas on the South Side of Des Moines. I also told Karen, I had given the information to the News Directors at the local TV stations. She showed great interest in the information.



After we finished filming for the day, the crew went to the airport and flew back to New York. Karen remained in Des Moines and stayed at the Marriott hotel. The next morning began with the shock of the phone ringing very early. It was a reporter at the local ABC TV station, telling me “the second kidnapping had just taken place”. He kept saying, “ It happened just as you said it would Mrs. Gosch”.

I asked the reporter, how he knew what I had reported, as I only talked with his manager. He replied “they spread it around the news room …everyone thought you were nuts!” He informed me the police were calling it a kidnapping immediately and the FBI were bringing in twenty-two agents from Quantico, VA to assist in the investigation and search. The young boy kidnapped was Eugene Martin, a newspaper carrier, preparing to deliver his papers on the South Side of Des Moines.

In Johnny’s case, the FBI refused to enter the case, the reason they verbally gave me in my home was that “they had no crime and it was my responsibility to prove my son’s life was in danger”. Why now with Eugene Martin’s kidnapping under identical circumstances was the FBI coming forward with a bevy of FBI agents. Could it be that somewhere during the months of Johnny’s kidnapping ……the law enforcement here learned something?



Based on this phone call alone, I called Karen at the hotel and told her the “second kidnapping had just happened”, exactly as Sam Soda had told me on June 13, 1984. She immediately swung into action contacting her network and arranging for a film crew to come back to Des Moines, when the crew arrived, they went directly to the Des Moines police department.

The police department was in a state of confusion; Karen placed, put, shoved a microphone in the police chief’s face and demanded the answers to the following questions. Are you bringing in FBI Agents for this case? They didn’t for Johnny Gosch! Are you going to use canine search teams? They didn’t for Johnny Gosch! Will you do an aerial search? They wouldn’t for Johnny Gosch! The Police Chief had no comment about the Johnny Gosch case and stated the department would do everything in their power to solve the Martin kidnapping. The police went all out using FBI, SWAT Teams, Canine Searches, and Aerial searches but like Johnny, Eugene Martin was probably quickly taken out of the immediate search area. This case appeared to be a duplicate of Johnny’s kidnapping.



I expected the Des Moines Police Dept, to contact me and want to discuss the information I received from Sam Soda. Despite the fact that my information proved to be valid, the police never asked to listen to the tape. Sam Soda knew another boy was going to be kidnapped. Shouldn’t the police have asked how did Sam Soda know? Who did Sam Soda know? Did Sam Soda also have the information that would have solved or prevented this crime?



Sam Soda, began to contact the Des Moines Police telling them that Paul Bishop (my CIA contact) had been in Des Moines a short time before the Martin kidnapping and was somehow involved. Sam must have bent the ear of some influential people because shortly afterward a Federal Grand Jury Hearing was scheduled; Paul Bishop was subpoenaed to testify.

He returned one more time to Des Moines. Following the hearing, Paul took a taxi to my home. He had been questioned about Eugene Martin, what he was doing in Des Moines, who he talked to in Des Moines for over six hours. While he was sharing the details of the hearing; the phone rang a number of times. It was Sam Soda each time wanting to know if Paul Bishop was there. He became very agitated, when I told him Paul was not there. He claimed, he needed to talk with Paul and could not find him. We felt it best for Paul to change his travel plans, I made arrangements with friends for Paul to stay the night at their home. He flew back to Washington D.C. a couple of days later, under different name. I received two more phone calls from Paul in the following week that was to be the last time I saw or spoke with Paul. The phone number to call Paul at Langley Air Force Base was no longer working.

Shortly after that visit, Paul Bishop or Robert LaVeck vanished without a trace. What happened to Paul Bishop, we have never been able to discover. Paul used to call me “Mom.” He was a young person in his twenties and I sometimes wonder, had he been used in some manner by the very element that took my son? Was he sent here to share with me the threads of truth, which would unfold later? It was years before the CIA was revealed as a part of this problem of missing children in our country and the world.

[sojourner]

245. I agree totally

The similarities are too intriguing to let the possibility go without some REAL evidence.

In science, one TESTS one's hypotheses, to see whether they can be PROVEN false.

All we need is a college yearbook photo of Mr. Guckert. If it is as good a match for Jeff Gannon as young Mr. Gosch's photo, then I'll be convinced that there was an amazing coincidence and let go of the Gosch-Guckert-Gannon hypothesis. Until then everything else is nothing more than conjecture and hearsay.

While I'm at it....Noreen Gosch would no more say whether this was true than I would if I were her. If the connection's real, then his life is truly in danger and more so if the connection's proven.

[Kire]

177. cool, thanks

Kire (author of post #94)

[Kire]

211. why didn't I realize, the Gosch story started on Rense!

dKosopedia writes about the History of the Pseudonym:
*2005-Feb-28: Sherman Skolnick alleges that James Guckert is "most likely" Johnny Gosch in an article entitled Gannon Cannon.

Check the URL to Gannon Cannon: http://www.rense.com/general63/gad.htm

I thought there used to be a website called RenseWatch that discredited Jeff Rense and the cockamamie stories that come out of his web service, but I can't find it at all now. Was this a figment of my imagination?

I remember posting a very sensational story somewhere about the hurricanes in Florida, and I got shot down because it was alarming people to no end. Maybe the mods who moderate LBN know something about this.

I found this two hour interview that Jeff Rense did with Lyndon LaRouche, he introduces him saying: "His economic forecasts have proven more accurate than anybody else's."

What does that tell you?

Anyway, I'm beat. I'll catch up tomorrow.

[Ferry Fey]

252. Take Rense with a pound of salt -- or ipecac?

"why didn't I realize, the Gosch story started on Rense!" -- Kire

Rense was actually somewhat late to the story, and even at that point Skolnick's article he reposted had some elementary errors, as I recall.

Rense is only useful if you have good powers of discernment and a well-calibrated BS meter. In many cases he (or is it his webmaster who digs these articles up?) is one of the first sources of breaking news, so it can actually be worth stopping in there regularly. He often reposts articles from generally respected mainstream sources. But he seems never to have had a paranoid rant submitted to him that he didn't like.

The tone of his website (I don't listen to his program) has shifted in recent years. What once was a steady diet of anti-Israel articles amonst the paranormal offerings has morphed into inclusion of outright racist and anti-Semitic material. He claims it's ostensibly for educational value, but never posts any material that counters the vile viewpoints. His advertisers pugnaciously support him if challenged. Posters on white supremacist and neo-Nazi bulletin boards praise him, so that should tell you something.

[seemslikeadream]

258. DU started talking about Gosch/Guckert Feb 19 before Rense

[DemonFighterLives]

107. I've been following along quietly

These threads are great. From the Gannon site "Fear and Loathing in the press room". What an ass after Hunters death.
I also listened to the Noreen interview which I hear was a repeat.
It was very interesting that her husband John Sr. was running around with an imposter of Noreen. Sighted by many. Rusty Nelson was taking photos of the rich and inflamed that were to be used to blackmail them.
Banacci said that he had a gun to his head when he first started abusing Johnny. He would occasionally "jump" into another personality.
There was a fella named Gary Carredorie (spelling? that's what it sounded like) who flew to meet Lefty Nelson and got all the information and pix. His plane exploded over Illinois. A farmer who started picking up photos was stopped by fbi and the debris were hauled to a military base.
Quite an interesting story though.

[ClayZ]

109. I listened too.

I am buying cell phones for all my grandkids tomorrow!

YUCK!


That was recorded a year ago!

[DemonFighterLives]

111. Sure reminds ya that there are Sickos out there

Coordinated ones at that!

[nonny]

116. Yet another Jim Guckert

Moves in brief;
Euroweek 07-25-2003

Moves in brief

ISSN: 09527036
Publication Date: 07-25-2003
Page: 1
Section: Trading Places
Type: Periodical
Language: English


Jim Guckert will become sole head of Merrill's US portfolio trading business. Guckert joined the bank in February from Goldman Sachs.

[Andy_Stephenson]

117. I want to encourage Mr "G" to come clean...

For his own safety he should now come forward for the good of everyone involved.

Truth is truly stranger than fiction.

[The Magistrate]

118. What Danger Is He In, Mr. Stephenson?

Have the difficulties blocking your treatment been sorted out favorably, Sir? You have my best wishes for a good outcome to the crisis.

[Andy_Stephenson]

121. Well Sir...if he is Gosch he is in danger..grave danger.

and I am still in the sort out mode of my treatment. But it looks good as far as I can tell. Thanks for the good wishes.

[The Magistrate]

123. Glad To Hear That It Looks Good, Sir

And since he is certainly not Gosch, you may put your mind at rest concerning that Guckert wretch's safety, as well....

[New Earth]

124. why do you keep saying that?

if you don't believe any of this and think it is bologney, why do you waste your time posting in this thread?

[The Magistrate]

129. Because It Is True, Ma'am

My time is my own, to spend as seems most pleasant to me. Do you imagine people who do not accept your beliefs are forbidden to comment here?

"There is no man so lonely as a dissenter at a Non-Conformists' Convention."

[New Earth]

131. what proof do you have that it ISN'T him?

hmmm?

oh, and i don't care who believes what i believe or not, i just thought mods were supposed to try to stay out of threads like this :shrug: no?

[The Magistrate]

140. At This Point, Ma'am, None Is Needed

That is the default position, as it were. You are pressing the claim that they are identical, and must prove that claim, and do so with proofs that sober and skeptical persons can accept as determinative. You have no proof the young kidnap victim lived; you have no proof that he lived under a regimen of sexual abuse by prominent Republicans as part of a program to produce mind-control slaves by a governmant agency; you have no proof he was later activated to become this Guckert creature. You might as well attempt to secure my belief in the proposition alien lizards direct events in this world, or that the Bush family is aiming at a One World government to prepare the way for the Anti-Christ.

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs."

[flyarm]

162. TRY LISTENING TO HIS MOTHER!!

you can read her all you want , i listened to her live in june, and the replay tonight...listen to her and tell us she is lying!!
not a chance!!
thats a mom who has lost what we all have nightmares of!

fly

[The Magistrate]

165. There Is A Difference, Ma'am

Between a lie, and a deeply held defensive belief that is nonetheless false to fact....

[flyarm]

192. i would figure you as a man would believe that..

this mother knows better!!

[The Magistrate]

193. Honestly, Ma'am

Do you think males are impervious to such mental anguish, and coping mechanisms?

[flyarm]

197. no you don't have the same instincts!! n/t

[The Magistrate]

203. Me Particularly, Ma'am? Or Males In General?

"If your mother says she loves you, check it out."

[Must_B_Free]

200. Mr Mag

Do we have proof that the government ran a program to produce mind-control slaves?

[The Magistrate]

207. Do You, Sir

Have proof the government operates, and has operated for at least the last quarter century, a program of kidnapping children to serve as sex slaves for Tepublican big-wigs, such abuse being the means by which they turned into mind-controlled slaves for future use by the Republican Party as political operatives?

You see, Sir, that is the claim, and proving that some other thing took place, such as experiments with psycho-active drugs as an aid to interrogation, does not in the slightest degree advance the proof of the proposition claimed here concerning Guckert. Proving my kitchen floor is covered in linoleum tile does not prove your living room floor is similarly sheathed: the two things bear no real relation to one another.

[Must_B_Free]

210. Actually

I find it interesting that you choose to characterize the expiraments with psychoactive drugs as "aids to interrogation", when the following statements suggest otherwise...

"The experiments were even exported to Canada, when the CIA recruited Albany, New York doctor Ewan Cameron, author of the psychic driving concept which the CIA found particularly interesting. In it he described his theory on correcting madness, which consisted of erasing existing memories and rebuilding the psyche completely."


"In the summer of 1975, congressional hearings and the Rockefeller Commission report revealed to the public for the first time that the CIA and the DOD had conducted experiments on both cognizant and unwitting human subjects as part of an extensive program to influence and control human behavior through the use of psychoactive drugs"

Is erasing existing memories a good technique to "aid interrogation"?

[flyarm]

214. sounds more like nazi tactics to me! n/t

[The Magistrate]

216. Influencing And Controlling Human Behavior, Sir

Is the essence of interrogation. These programs have been widely reported, over a great length of time and there is no particular point to cherry picking occassional paragraphs out of occassional reports of them. There was, before the drugs got into wide circulation, some promising research being conducted in the use of psychedelics to treat mental illness; in some instances they had an oddly calming effect. Most psychotherapy works through a process that could be, albeit melodramatically, refered to as destroying existing memories and rebuilding the psyche completely. It is generally descibed in milder terms, as unlearning destructive patterns of thought and behavior, and learning new ones that work better in the world that actually surrounds the patient. It is true that tremendous degrees of stress can greatly alter personality, and even destroy it, but the unfortunates that result are of little use to anyone, in the latter class they are generally catatonic, and not much success had been in rebuilding persons broken by such things.

[Must_B_Free]

224. "Influencing And Controlling Human Behavior, Sir "

"Is the essence of interrogation"
But that does not prove that the goal of MKUltra was interogation, does it? Proving my kitchen floor is covered in linoleum tile does not prove my living room floor is similarly sheathed.

"These programs have been widely reported" really?
I'm guilty of cherry picking because I cite references, but your statements are to be taken at full veracity on the basis of what?

I am finding little to support your characterization of the program, sir, I am sorry to report.

[The Magistrate]

226. You Are Certainly Free To Hold Any View You Choose, Sir

Nor does it discommode me in the slightest to leave the choice as to which of us is to be most credited in our dispute to others looking on....

[Must_B_Free]

234. Here are 17 goals of the program

One of which, #13, supports your assertion, sixteen of which contradict your assertion.

I find #14 particularly interesting.


5 May 1955

A portion of the Research and Development Program of TSS/Chemical Division is devoted to the discovery of the following materials and methods:

1. Substances which will promote illogical thinking and impulsiveness to the point where the recipient would be discredited in public.

2. Substances which increase the efficiency of mentation and perception.

3. Materials which will prevent or counteract the intoxicating effect of alcohol.

4. Materials which will promote the intoxicating effect of alcohol.

5. Materials which will produce the signs and symptoms of recognized diseases in a reversible way so that they may be used for malingering, etc.

6. Materials which will render the indication of hypnosis easier or otherwise enhance its usefulness.

7. Substances which will enhance the ability of individuals to withstand privation, torture and coercion during interrogation and so-called "brainwashing".

8. Materials and physical methods which will produce amnesia for events preceding and during their use.

9. Physical methods of producing shock and confusion over extended periods of time and capable of surreptitious use.

10. Substances which produce physical disablement such as paralysis of the legs, acute anemia, etc.



-2-

11. Substances which will produce "pure" euphoria with no subsequent let-down.

12. Substances which alter personality structure in such a way that the tendency of the recipient to become dependent upon another person is enhanced.

13. A material which will cause mental confusion of such a type that the individual under its influence will find it difficult to maintain a fabrication under questioning.

14. Substances which will lower the ambition and general working efficiency of men when administered in undetectable amounts.

15. Substances which will promote weakness or distortion of the eyesight or hearing faculties, preferably without permanent effects.

16. A knockout pill which can surreptitiously be administered in drinks, food, cigarettes, as an aerosol, etc., which will be safe to use, provide a maximum of amnesia, and be suitable for use by agent types on an ad hoc basis.

17. A material which can be surreptitiously administered by the above routes and which in very small amounts will make it impossible for a man to perform any physical activity whatever.

reference
http://www.parascope.com/ds/mkultra7.htm

[The Magistrate]

237. None Of Which, Sir, Seems To Justify Much Heavy Breathing, Does It?

These are all perfectly normal and unremarkable goals for an intelligence agency. None of them could, without considerable hyperbole, be described as production of mind-control slaves, or the complete breaking down and rebuilding of a psyche. Several bear directly on conducting and withstanding interrogations, the rest are mostly a search for poisons of various effect, and an antidote or two.

Nor has there yet emerged from accounts of the program any particular reason to believe there was any great success attending the efforts. The state of the art in such matters half a century ago was not too well developed.

[Must_B_Free]

243. Upon first introduction to the MKUltra material

it was presented in the setting of post World War II paranoia. With Russia as our new mortal enemies, the US feared that their enemy may develop the ability to produce the ultimate spy - a spy that didn't know he was a spy. I find that items 2, 3, 7 and 8 all would further this goal.

So in that sense what you characterize as a "slave" may be more realistically be characterized as a spy or operative. Clearly your use of the word slave is intended for ridicule rather than accuracy.

Second, we are not debating the success or failures of said program, we are debating whether the theme of a government would actually engage in perpetrating harmful crimes against individuals. Be they massive doses of LSD and shock treatment, or induced trauma through sexual torture, these may be different methods to the same goal - to destroy identity and allow a rebuilding of it.

Third, I find that the commonality of all of the goals listed seems to be their useful for spies in a ruthless battle for geopolitical dominance, as was suggested as the instigation for the program at the beginning of my post.

[The Magistrate]

247. Then , Sir

What relevance does it have to the allegation that the wretch Guckert is actually the unfortunate young Mr. Gosch, abducted some twenty years ago into a life of sexual slavery serving Republican big-wigs, which was the means of turning him into a mind-controlled slave to be activated later as an operative of the Republican Party? For those are the allegations made, Sir. It has been my weary business to examine all the various sites cited by promotors of this matter as demonstrating the identity of those two, and that is the general import they convey to anyone who bothers to read them.

You are yourself, Sir, even seemingly opening a back door to such a position, with your suggestion of "induced trauma through sexual torture" being among "different methods to the same goal - to destroy identity and allow a rebuilding of it." Note that the goal of "destroying identity" and "rebuilding" it appears nowhere in your own official de-classified list. Note that sexual torture is not a listed item there either. Know further that there is no reason to suppose that is a particularly effective means of achieving such a goal, even if one were aiming at it. Simple isolation, Sir, works much better at breaking down personality than almost anything, and that has long been known.

And indeed, Sir, whether or not the program was successful does have some bearing on the matter at hand, for if persons are going to cite it as somehow proving that this was done to the unfortunate young Mr. Gosch, then there has to be some reason to believe that there is a connection between what came out of that program and what it is alleged he was subjected to. Otherwise, the thing could have no bearing at all. You might as well say that because the moon orbits the earth, so does the sun; they are, after all, both bright circular objects seen to move across the sky.

[Must_B_Free]

249. Sir, with all due respect, I think your expectations are too great

The point is that were are hypothesizing. You seem to be expecting some proof of ideas that are merely in formative stages.

Certainly the MkUltra was brought up to suggest a pattern; to be an example of the unthinkable, or rather what one wishes to not have to think.

"Note that the goal of "destroying identity" and "rebuilding" it appears nowhere in your own official de-classified list."

In 1955 no, however we know the program was long and diverse, we also know most of the documentation was successfully destroyed. Who is to say what directions the program may have taken in later stages.

It is my suggestion that when engaged in the act of thinking, do not box yourself in. Sometimes an answer is hiding where one would not expect to find it.

"You might as well say that because the moon orbits the earth, so does the sun; they are, after all, both bright circular objects seen to move across the sky." And yet, at a time we had to contemplate those possibilities, didn't we?

[The Magistrate]

250. Well, Sir

You have my heartfelt thanks for the instruction in the art of thinking; rest assured it will be put to suitable use....

My own experience with finding things is that they are usually in the very last place you look....

"In war, only what is simple can succeed."

[Ferry Fey]

256. Poor pitiful phrase, abandoned by its creator

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs." -- quoted by The Magistrate

That phrase, often attributed to Carl Sagan, was originally coined by Marcello Truzzi, a founder of the skeptic's group CSICOP.

Truzzi's friend Jerome Clark states, "In recent years Marcello had come to conclude that the phrase was a non sequitur, meaningless and question-begging, and he intended to write a debunking of his own words. Sad to say, he never got around to it."

http://www.anomalist.com/milestones/truzzi.html

There is a thoughtful essay by Truzzi on "REFLECTIONS ON THE RECEPTION OF UNCONVENTIONAL CLAIMS IN SCIENCE" that might have some relevance to thinking about what claims should bear further examination in the Gannon case, which is already showing signs of high strangeness.

http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/truzzi.html

Some examples of how the mania for extraordinary proofs is often abused by scientists who want to "move the goal posts" can be found in this commentary by Patrick Huyghe:

http://www.anomalist.com/commentaries/claim.html

We now return you to discussions about people whose initials are JG. :)

[slaveplanet]

257. Certainly, sir

You being the self appointed judge and jury around these parts. Would take Into account the weight of the sworn testimony(under oath no less) of the victims own mother, That the information she was receiving from an informant in the trial , was admitted on the stand, on the record, that the informant was none other than her son John Gosch (given name). This testimony was given only when the question was posed "Had she ever been visited by her son since the kidnapping". Her answer was entered against her sons wishes, that said information of his return visit ever be exposed to anyone.

You have no proof the young kidnap victim lived- Yes , we do, sworn testimony

What sir, is your evidence to the contrary?

[ClayZ]

132. I put that in the wrong spot. SORRY!

The unconvinced, the convinced, and the wondering, all here together!

[Catherine Vincent]

139. Do you know Jeff Gannon?

Spill it!

[ClayZ]

142. That would be the only PROOF POSITIVE.

Anything less would be speculation.


NO?

[The Magistrate]

144. Do You Imagine, Ma'am, That Constitiutes A Useful Tactic Of Debate?

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[ClayZ]

149. De Bait has been swallowed, Sir!

De hook was Gannon in the Whitehouse!

[The Magistrate]

154. Your Meaning Is Unclear, Sir

Do, please, expound....

[ClayZ]

168. Gannon, or someone posting as Gannon,

came on DU and said "I am hiding in plain sight"!

Five Gannon-Wrinkle-Threads later here we are, Sir.


P.S. I am a Grandmother.

[The Magistrate]

175. Proving What, Ma'am?

People say all sorts of things, here, and other places in this electronic attic we amuse ourselves in. Do you believe them all?

"I could tell you tales of cobbler's wax, Sir, that would disgust you with human nature!"

[ClayZ]

182. At this point, Sir, I am quite enough disgusted, Thank you!

In fact in my 55 years on the planet, I have never been so
disgusted as I am with mess bu$h has made of the world.

Tell me no Tales, I will tell you no lies!

*
Grandma ClayZ

[The Magistrate]

187. The Criminals Of The '00 Coup, Ma'am

Have certainly made a major mess, and one that anyone with political knowledge could have predicted five years ago. Those who pushed the line in 2000 that "there isn't a dime's worth of difference" between the candidates bear a heavy burden indeed....

[imaginary girl]

196. In fact, many did predict it. But what we do now is the more pressing

issue, I think.

[The Magistrate]

202. That Is True, Ma'am

How to minimize the damage, and reverse the situation, are the most important things. It is regretable so much energy is spent on this gaudy distraction, because all of it is a waste in terms of actual opposition to the current regime and its policies. No candidate will ever go to the country, or to the state or the Congressional district, crying up the claim Guckert and young Mr. Gosch are one and the same as the chosen means of defeating a Republican foe....

[ClayZ]

206. Righting a wrong, such as this, might be just

the ticket to wake up the koolaid drinkers.

I beg to differ!

Can you imagine the press actually doing thier job with a story like this.

Michael Jackson might have to take second place!

[The Magistrate]

212. If, Ma'am, The Press Did Its Job In This Matter

It would hammer on the existance of a White House program to manipulate press coverage through shills and ringers. It would ask damned embarrassing questions about how a man who publicly offered his services as a "top-man" for homosexual sado-masochistic practices gained access to the White House press room, and what he was doing as an operative of the "party of family values" in the first place. It would try and track closely how he came to be hired by the Party auxiliary for which he worked, and look into the likelihood he first came into the fold, so to speak, through the patronage of one of his clients as a sadistic homosexual prostitute.

It would not waste an instant on the proposition he had been kidnapped as a child as a part of a government program to supply youthful sex-slaves to Republican Party big-wigs, such abuse being the means by which these unfortunates were turned into mind-controlled slaves to be activated later for use by the Republican Party as low-grade tricksters....

[ClayZ]

222. So, we should just quit trying, roll over, and wait for JESUS!

I think the job these people have done uncovering Mr. Gannon has been amazing. This "attic" you refer to, has been the only source of hope
in a 5 year battle with the DARK SIDE!

Casting doubt among truthseekers, is like beating up peacemarchers!

You need to go re-read Mark Twain's "The war Prayer" or something.

[The Magistrate]

225. What 'Uncovering' Of Guckert Has Been Done Here, Ma'am?

[ClayZ]

227. MORE uncovering than the press has!

That is what!

[Must_B_Free]

228. What is your explanation for the relative ignoring of this story by the

press?

Aaron Brown poo-pooed it. "Why are they looking into his personal life"...

The story is certainly more incriminating than Monica Lewinsky, for example in that case the sex was consentual. In this case it appears that someone given some background check was actually engaged in illegal activity.

[The Magistrate]

231. My Guess, Sir

Would be a certain laziness, combined with a degree of fear of offending a political organization able to take petty but uncomfortable vengeances, and spiced by a preference among many of the bosses of the combines owning the news-rooms for Republican rule.

What is your explaination, Sir?

[Must_B_Free]

239. Laziness would certainly not be the first part of my explanation, Sir

As far as your speculation that the offended or damaged parties might exact revenge, I have to say, I find it interesting that you are willing to engage in certain themes of speculation, but not others. So to speak, you'll entertain some conspiracies, but not others.

However, that being said, you are certainly free to find some suggestive explanations plausible and others implausible.

[The Magistrate]

242. Laziness, Sir

Will be the first part of my suggested explaination for damned near anything, particularly anything involving inaction, since laziness is the guiding principle of life, of which humanity, and journalists, are merely one small portion. No living thing does anything it can avoid, unless enticed to it by active pleasure.

Political organizations have done harm to newsmen so long as the two have co-existed. Sources and access can be shut off, bosses can be approached, rivals can be fed the scoops instead: there is nothing particularly deep or deadly about the thing. Some political machines are better at it than others, but that does not alter the universality of the practice, or render it particularly dire.

Still, Sir, you have not satisfied my curiousity concerning your suggestions for an explaination of the matter....

[EFerrari]

233. Forgive me for inserting myself into this conversation

Magistrate, but why is this construct so hilarious when you say it?

lol

[The Magistrate]

235. No Apology Necessay, Ma'am

It is a public forum, after all, where anyone may address or reply to any other. But it is impossible for me to answer your question....

"On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."

[EFerrari]

238. Wasn't that Cleveland?

When, I'll leave you to keep order here. I've nearly placed Gannon on the grassy knoll with G. Gordon Liddy.

[The Magistrate]

241. Cleveland, Ma'am

Is the city of light, the city of passion, where the Cuyahoga River flows flaming to the sea, in the excellent song by Mr. Neuman. To the best of my recollection, at least, Mr. Fields claimed a preference for Philadelphia....

"Any man who hates dogs and loves whiskey can't be all bad."

[imaginary girl]

218. Which is, perhaps, why the public feels the need to step in and

do it for them (at least some of the public). Unless, of course, there is reason to believe that such a move might be dangerous for the main players.

[The Magistrate]

221. This Sort Of Baseless Speculation, Ma'am

Is no danger at all to the persons currently holding political and economic power in out country. If it has any effect at all, it is rather to buttress their position a trifle, by making it easy to discredit opposition to them....

[elehhhhna]

266. I find your cynical attitude about this to be appropriate,

but could ya quit talking like Vincent Price? Thanks. ;^)

[Andy_Stephenson]

126. How is it you are so sure?

I would really like to know.

[ClayZ]

Me Too!

:eyes:

[Must_B_Free]

134. He sure looks like Gosch

perhaps James Guckert is some re-identity that he was given? Witness Protection?

The age seems about right...

The Guckert in the "We paint trucks" pic doesn't look like Gannon to me... too stocky/burley.

I guess we'll know eventually...

The weird thing is that there aren't more people coming out who knew him... 1 college professor? Being Gosch would explain who there is no info on him.

My roommate was speculating that perhaps he took steroids and looks older than he is.

[The Magistrate]

148. Why Should Anyone Come Forward, Sir?

It is not as if there is any real controversy, or any reason to expect a useful sum of money for stories told....

[The Magistrate]

137. Having Read Through All The 'Proofs' Offered Here, Sir

There is nothing that would persuade me to spend a penny wagering on the proposition Guckert is Gosch is true. For that matter, there is nothing that leads me to believe the unfortunate young Mr. Gosch lived more than a few hours after his disappearance. His mother does not strike me as too reliable: a statement not meant as any disparagement of her, but made as a parent who can empathize with the terrible burden of grief and uncertainty placed upon her by an unspeakable event.

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs."

[Andy_Stephenson]

138. Well sir...after spending many hours on the phone with her...

I can assure you she is reliable. John Walsh will vouch for as well...he in fact already has. She was stalled at every turn to find her son...there is much there...perhaps you should order and read the Franklin Coverup by John DeCamp.

[The Magistrate]

143. We Will Doubtless Continue, Sir

To have some differences in matters of assessing reliabilty: you have in the past considered reliable persons who strike me distinctly otherwise....

[kk897]

279. Magistrate, that is a VERY LOW BLOW

Magistrate said this to Andy:

"To have some differences in matters of assessing reliabilty: you have in the past considered reliable persons who strike me distinctly otherwise...."

Assumably Mr. Magistrate, the arbiter of the truth, is referring to Ms. Harris of BBV. Verrrry low blow, sir.

[imaginary girl]

160. Sorry for interrupting, Sir, but I just wanted to point out

that none of the posts on these threads have been claimed as "proof": all is speculation and easily identified as such.

[The Magistrate]

170. And As Speculation, Ma'am

Worthless entire in any proceeding requiring evidence. Nonetheless, though you have forthrightly acknowledged this to be a mere tissue of speculation, it is pretty clear from the commentary, particularly when put to the proof of a mildly expressed challenge, that some here are certainly treating these speculations as if they were facts, and facts that none ought dare express disbelief towards, to boot.

[imaginary girl]

183. How do you know when things are being called by their right names ...

And when they are not, unless you question them from time to time?

[The Magistrate]

190. What On Earth, Ma'am

Leads you to imagine me an unquestioning sort...?

"An optimist thinks this is the best possible world. A pessimist knows it."

[imaginary girl]

201. Ah, but Sir, that was a generic you. I am quite sure

(specific) you are a questioning type. Suppose, for example, you played along with us ... what questions would you ask?



"How do you cope when readers don't believe in your characters and stories? You plug the gaps where belief leaks out."

[The Magistrate]

219. My Questions In This Matter, Ma'am

Would be directed more towards why some people are so eager to believe incredible things, and why some people find the idea of an all embracing conspiracy driving the events of this chaotic and whimsical world so attractive.

[The Magistrate]

220. The Machine Hiccoughed Somehow

[Donailin]

255. There are extraordinary proofs

Setting aside Gannon, The Gosch story has been stifled at every turn as far as MSM is concerned. Everything is documented and the last four threads have given more than ample links to such. That you have an opinion that Gosch is dead and his mom is incredible is dissappointing to hear. The state court system itself believes the story, but you would know that if you were informed, which you seem not to be -- I'll be sure to keep this fact in mind in the future when encountering your posts.

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/gunderson_report.htm

[DemonFighterLives]

294. Very interesting report

I'm doing a little catch up with the Franklin thingy.

I don't really care if Gannon is Gosch, but there is intrique in the whole story. Why would his past not be easier to reveal?
What gets me is that Caradori's plane exploded which fits the MO of many nasty things that have happened in America since the 60's.

[imaginary girl]

125. Hey, best wishes from me as well. Did you ever post the photo ...

you mentioned last night?

[Andy_Stephenson]

128. No I have not been able to do it...

I have no server space and the one I signed up for won't let me in.

[New Earth]

130. there are many you can use

did you try that miamihost.net link i gave you? you can also try photobucket.com

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

260. Photobucket is excellent and takes all of a minute to sign-up with. n/t

[nonny]

133. Andy, have you read your PMs?

[imaginary girl]

136. Nonny, thanks again for your photo work. The second one was quite amazing

[merh]

146. Yes nonny - incredible imagery.

Thanks for putting that together for us. I am very impressed.

And a warm welcome to DU! :hi:

[Pastiche423]

147. Andy, email it to me and I'll post it

[nonny]

141. Andy's photo of John Gosch senior

The next 2 photos I made grayscale and removed the distracting background of the one from www.jeffgannon.com

[ClayZ]

145. Those EYES!

:wow:

[Must_B_Free]

172. same jaw and chin too

[ClayZ]

178. Amazing! His mother must know!

What is up with that?

[merh]

150. Damn!!!!!!!!!!! The eyes!

Holy molly. Again thank you for helping Andy out with the photos.

Damn Andy! :wow:

[The Magistrate]

152. Clearly, Ma'am

Mr. Gosch Sr. could stand safe as mother's milk in a line-up where a suspect in a crime committed by this Guckert creature were sought. There is no resemblance at all.

[merh]

159. Clearly sir, your opinion is your own and of no import to me.

BTW: You may want to check the presciption for your glasses and if you don't wear any, maybe you should start.

[The Magistrate]

163. Well, Sir, That Certainly Elevates The Tone

Which of us is rubber, and which glue, do you suppose?

[Catherine Vincent]

167. So you do know Jeff Gannon..

:-)

[The Magistrate]

179. Again, Ma'am, Do You Feel This Is An Effective Tactic In Debate?

[Catherine Vincent]

180. No sir.

Just having a little fun....at your expense.:-)

[The Magistrate]

184. If You Find It Enjoyable, Ma'am, Carry On, By All Means

It does not bother me, and certainly costs me nothing....

[Andy_Stephenson]

188. Do you think a mother would know her own son?

Yes or no please.

[imaginary girl]

194. Not every mother; not every son; not every situation

But definitely possible.

[The Magistrate]

195. Not Necessarily, Mr. Stephenson

People are as prone to see what they hope to see as they are to not see what they hope not to see. The mind is a most malleable thing, and not wholly under the control of its ostensible operator....

[Must_B_Free]

198. Mr Mag

do you believe in MKUltra?

[The Magistrate]

230. 'Believe In', Sir?

That usage suggests we are treating matters of faith and dogma, not of fact.

That a program with that name was comducted is a fact; it would seem from our exchanges elsewhere we take different views of its signifigance and aims and scope; many of these things are not matters of narrow fact but of the theoretical frameworks by which the facts are organized to yield meaning.

[intheflow]

285. Andy, are you saying that in your conversations with Noreen

she also thought Gannon/Guckert bore a resemblence to Johnny Gosch?

[Andy_Stephenson]

287. In a word...

yes

[intheflow]

291. Thanks!

:hi:

You're on much earlier today than I've seen you before. I hope that means you're feeling a bit more chipper. I'm sending healing thoughts your way, Friend! :hug:

[Roland99]

272. I must agree with your assessment of the lack of resemblance.

[mordarlar]

155. could you place Noreen's photo near these as well?

[merh]

271. see post 270 for the 3 images n/t

[mordarlar]

274. Thanks : )

[Minstrel Boy]

156. When Bonacci met Gosch Sr: "the eyes"

From The Franklin Cover Up:

"John Gosch, Sr walked into the prison in Lincoln, Nebraska to meet Paul Bonacci for the first time, unannounced. Sitting across from him, Gosch asked Bonacci, 'Do you know who I am?' Bonacci replied, 'You look like - it can't be - the eyes, you look like Johnny Gosch.'"

[Catherine Vincent]

158. Thanks, Nonny, for posting the pic for Andy.

I see some similarities. The ears, chin, facial structure. In the middle picture, is that Gosch? Do we have a closeup of that one anywhere on the net?

[nonny]

186. The middle pic is Gannon from www.jeffgannon.com

Top left corner of website www.jeffgannon.com
I took out the background so that it wouldn't distract the eye.
Made both Gosch senior and gannon/guckert/gosch jr. grayscale.
When the tone is similar in the 2 photos, it is easier to see the similarities or differences of the details.

[intheflow]

191. I think the middle picture refers to the wanted flyer

Johnny's father is holding.

[Sparkle]

289. I think catgirl meant the middle pic on the wanted flyer.

Is that the little boy Gosch?

[Must_B_Free]

169. Noreen said the father was in on it

on the repeat of skolniks show from a year ago... She said her husband got a "wrong number" call every night, but the night before the kid was nabbed, he talked to the caller... That it was some type of signal to let the kid go on the route alone...

Did I hear that correctly?

[ClayZ]

171. Yes! That is what I heard in it too!

BAD DAD!

[Must_B_Free]

181. We need to sort out the herrings from the tuna

So far we have
* Gannon at TKE for sure, more recently

* we have a claim that people "called his mother" - well if bloggers called his mother, how did they know who she was? Did this claim come from the right to punish the bloggers? (herring?)

* We have a claim that a professor recognizes him. (herring?)

* The pics of ganguk and Gosch are startling to say the least. More alike than Jose Padilla/John Doe #2 scam that the freepers tried to pull on us.

The names really mean little - there are multiple Jeff Gannons and James Guckerts.

* The We-paint-trucks pic doesn't look like Gannon to me. COUld that be the/a real James Guckert?

I am wanting to believe he is Gosch and that explains his prostitution, changed identity, photo similarity, lack of history. The prob the college record which would make him too old to be Gosch.

[mordarlar]

217. I wonder if we had a picture from Guckert's collage days if it might ....

resemble the truck photo more than a Gannon photo. Also interesting if that is Guckert in the truck photo as the Gannon we know is bald. As far as i know there is no identification of the men in the truck photo.

[merh]

267. That is my question too!

"* The We-paint-trucks pic doesn't look like Gannon to me. COUld that be the/a real James Guckert?"

Do we really know jimmy-jeff was TKE or do we know that Guckert was TKE?

[imaginary girl]

174. Could this be why the police kept insisting there "was no crime?"

[ClayZ]

189. She said the Police had been told to STAND DOWN!

Argh!

[flyarm]

199. yes you did and rusty told her about it as well n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

262. OMG! The eyes look identical! n/t

[merh]

270. The 3 images

[mordarlar]

275. Mom's nose and undereye bone structure, dad's lips and eyes? Anyone else?

Last post before 1000. : )

[merh]

276. I agree - post back to get to 1000!

congrats on the milestone! :thumbsup:

[mordarlar]

277. Woo hoo! LOL Thanks

:party:

[Andy_Stephenson]

278. This discussion must be some kind of Record

I don't think there has ever been a serious discussion that reached 1000 posts here at DU. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

And to think we have barely scratched the surface.

[mordarlar]

283. Oh, we were speaking of my personal count. I just posted my 1000th.

But i agree with you. This is an incredible thread. And VERY important. Shedding light in dark corners is LONG overdue.

[merh]

284. Actually the Plame threads (over 9 if I recall)

were well over 1000. The problem was, folks became anxious that their research was taken serious and then in fighting and personal attacks started to ocur all too frequently.

We must keep in mind that folks will not always agree. Those who try to dissuade the discourse may be well intentioned but if they become annoying, ignoring them is the best way to deal with them.

[Andy_Stephenson]

286. Huh? What did you say? Sorry I wasn't listening.

:hi:

[merh]

292. Does anyone have an icon of a smiley with its tounge sticking out

giving the raspberry to someone??? If you do, please share it with me so I can respond to Mr. Smarty Pants!

ppppppplllllllllllllllllllllllbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

Your posts are chipper, I hope that is a reflection of your well being improving! :hi:

[Andy_Stephenson]

293. I have my best energy burst in the morning...

around noon it falls off and I need a 3 hour nap. I am feeling good this morning...not so depressed and dour.

[DemonFighterLives]

296. Morning Andy

So when does the rest of the story come out? :donut:

[Andy_Stephenson]

297. Well

I would imagine when the time is right. It is not up to me now. If it were it would have been out at the beginning of the week.

[intheflow]

288. I can see Noreen's nose.

Other than that, no resemblance to her. But that's not unusual--my son looks just like his father, very little of my features in him at all. Gannon/Guckert's resemblance in the eyes, chin, and lips to Gosch, Sr. is pretty incredible.

It does seem like an unspannable stretch of the imagination to connect the Gosch kidnapping to Gannon/Guckert, but these photo comparisons are really compelling.

[imaginary girl]

151. Anybody game?

Remember this post from the last wrinkle thread? Anybody belong to this group and want to try to find out if the past locals ever heard of a John/James Guckert? I'd join to do it, but I'm the absolute most ignorant person when it comes to prof. sports, so it just feels wrong!

"WTF? I just caught a blurb flipping through the channels and by the time I digested what I heard I couldn't get flipped back in time to get the last words of the report - what are they talking about? Is somebody claiming that Jeff Gannon is Johnny Gosch? Or is Gannon claiming he is Gosch? Or, that he knows something about his disappearance? Or what?"

http://iowa.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=811&tid=49388948&sid=&style=2

[understandinglife]

161. Scroll down that thread;

KMKHawk

user profile
KCMO
HR MVP
Post #938 Re: Jeff Gannon = Johnny Gosch? Reply

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sambud:
He lived a block from me at the time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[intheflow]

215. I took this to mean the poster lived a block from Johnny Gosch,

not Jeff Gannon.

[imaginary girl]

232. Actually it seemed many of them lived nearby ...

The point of asking about Guckert was to see if that name was "visible" to Gosch as he was growing up. Since "Jeff Gannon" was a familiar name, it would make sense that "John/James Guckert", if another alias, would be too.

[understandinglife]

269. Correct. (nt)

TBO;24/7

[Catherine Vincent]

164. I started a thread on the Iowa state board here on DU to ask

a DUer to register/login to get info on this but no takers yet. I did get scorn from one DUer though. He/she said this Gannon/Guckert/Gosch thing is a waste of time.

[imaginary girl]

166. Could I guess who that DUer was? n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

176. Sure.

I hope I didn't peak his curiosity to come on this thread.

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

244. Check Media Matters article on lifting RNC talking points

http://mediamatters.org/items/200501280001

This is their claim: "Talon News Washington bureau chief and White House correspondent Jeff Gannon, who accused his colleagues in the press corps of "work off of the talking points" provided by Democrats, has used Bush administration and Republican National Committee (RNC) documents and releases in his Talon "news reports" verbatim and without attribution."

I disagree with them. When I read the two columns of text they provide, I don't see plagiarism so much as revision. Unskilled writers who plagiarize are never this good at it. 1) Notice how smooth the sentences are in "Gannon's" version, and 2) how devoid of personal tics the second column is.

Either Jimmy/Jeff was also writing for the RNC or absent some major training in very controlled writing, he didn't plagiarize this stuff, just put his name to it.

Which doesn't get me very far but at least something with which to compare his FR posts and his website posts.

[troubleinwinter]

295. Interesting, SF.

Did you check out the other plagiarism links I posted... the "Why are we back in Iraq" blog?

Judging from his personal entries about himself, as on The Conservative Guy, he does not seem like he can write worth a damned. His 'news' articles are better.

Keep up your annalysis & keep us posted.