Should cats be required to be kept on its owner's property or on a leash?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

Yes, this is inspired by the Wisconsin hunter thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3233160

Although the focus of that thread was whether free-roaming cats should be considered "fair game," I think what the matter really boils down to is whether or not you think cats should have the same restrictions we put on dogs -- namely, that they are kept on the owner's property or under the owner's control at all times and not be allowed to roam freely.

I say they should.

I believe in the old saying that your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. I should be able to enjoy my property without having to worry about other people's pets urinating and defecating everywhere, destroying my plants, or killing my wildlife.

Dogs present a danger of attack that cats don't present, but anyone who thinks cats can't be considered dangerous should learn about toxoplasmosis and its dangers to pregnant women and immune-compromised individuals (like people with HIV) in particular: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/toxoplasmosis/factsht_toxoplasmosis.htm

Property owners should not have to invest in sprays, water-squirting devices or other technology because of other people's lack of consideration. Parents should not have to check their children's sandbox constantly for cat feces or worry about them finding the dead birds and bunnies killed by neighborhood cats.

Americans see it as their God-given right to own a cat or dog, just like they see it as their right to own a chunk of land they can fill with grass they must water and cut. From an environmental standpoint, cats, though they can be cute and cuddly, are terribly destructive. That "icky" snake a person might kill in his yard actually has a much greater right to be there than a cat, which is invasive and non-native.

If you argue that cats would be unhappy if made to face the same restrictions dogs face, my answer is that you should not own a cat in that case. Tigers are beautiful creatures, but we do not allow them to be kept as pets because it is understood that the average person cannot simultaneously provide a proper and human environment for the animal while at the same time ensuring that the surrounding community is not endangered. If one argues that the same is true of the domestic cat, then it obviously follows that cats should not be kept as pets... correct?

(edited typo)

[benburch]

1. Feral cats own themselves.

And they outnumber domestic cats in most settings.

[Warpy]

6. I tolerate them in my own yard

because they keep the rodents under control. This has been a wet year, and hantaavirus is a real concern.

However, I keep my own cats indoors. It's safer for the cat and easier on the birds.

Should there be a population explosion in feral kitties, I'll get a trap from the city and turn them over to the neuter and release program. That way they can live out their lives without overbreeding.

[BikeWriter]

107. If they are on my property I will control them.

[Scout]

2. yes n/t

[napi21]

3. Well, I have 2 dogs and 2 cats. I ALWAYS clean up after my dogs.

Although they are little guys (under 20 pounds), I still feel it's my responsibility to clean up their poop wherever they leave it. I do not do that for my cats because it really is almost unnoticeable. Why is this causing a problem for you?
edit: I might add that my dogs are never off leash except in my finced yard.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

5. I would have a problem with cat feces in my yard.

Why can't you understand that? And "unnoticeable" or not, it's still a health hazard (did you read the taxoplasmosis link?). If I got pregnant I would have to be careful every time I was out in my garden because my neighbor wants to "own" a cat but doesn't want to accept any responsibility for it.

[Warpy]

10. Wear gloves when you garden

which is something you need to do anyway, pregnant or not. Cats aren't the only animals that defecate in your yard, and they're not the only animals that carry toxoplasmosis.

Caution is fine. Paranoia is unacceptable.

I feel a little sorry for the neighbor's kitty. The world is a pretty tough place for cats. Lots of people have been brought up to despise them and cats are mistreated in every area when they're caught by cat haters.

However, you might consider that the event that allowed the Black Death to reach pandemic status in Europe in the 1300s was the Catholic Church's attempt to slaughter all cats.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

16. I don't hate cats.

We own a cat. An indoor cat. She is declawed (but not by me -- she same from the pound that way). We have had her outside on rare occasions but always under our supervision, like a toddler. She's curious for a while, but she always wants to go back in before too long.

I'm not a cat hater or a dog hater, but I deply resent pet owners who don't shirk their responsibilities -- like people who don't scoop up after their dogs.

[BikeWriter]

109. Excuse me? We have rat poison. We shouldn't have to tolerate cat poop...

...everywhere.

[napi21]

13. So what do you do about rabbits, squirrels, racoons, and such?

You worry way too much about things that are just natural to your surroudings.

I feed the birds and squirrels in my yard too, but I don't go play in their droppings.

You are way too concerned about something that's not a problem.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

20. cats are NOT natural. Squirrels and rabbits and raccoons are.

I believe only cats carry toxoplasmosis.

If a wild rabbit eats my garden, I figure well it was here before I was. A cat is not natural. It is an invasive, non-native species.

[DireStrike]

81. So?

Other than the toxoplasmosis, I don't see anything to that argument. Invasive, non-native - I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone to care, except a small minority (+ cat haters.)

[chimpy the poopthrower]

82. Yes, so far that seems to be the case.

Most of the people arguing that cats should be allowed to roam free DON'T understand or care that cats are invasive and non-native. But they SHOULD care.

Somehow, I thought DUers were more environmentally sophisticated.

[Solon]

83. Your argument would hold more water if...

You were talking about Hawaii or Australia. The fact of the matter is that most wildlife in our country's lower 48 has already been adapted to ground and tree predators of the feline variety. Cars most likely kill more wildlife in this country per year, than cats do. Also, as far as I can tell, most people here aren't talking about feral cats, we want to at the very least, reduce their population, and eventually eliminate them. Ever since the first domestic cat set foot on American soil back in the 1500s they had free reign, how do we put that cat back in the bag(pardon the pun).

[chimpy the poopthrower]

85. It's not my argument. It comes from the National Wildlife Federation.

http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/article.cfm?issueid=61&articleid=768

But I guess they are a just a bunch of cat haters too, as I have been accused of on this thread (not by you, Solon).

[Solon]

88. Problem is working on equitable solutions...

Cats roam the country side freely, and its hard as hell to catch the feral ones as it is. As far as pets and protected species, I would say its the owner's responsibility, one thing the NWF could do is think of practical solutions to the problem, such as cat owner education books, stuff like that. Saying, put cats on leashes means nothing to those who tried, they slip out of harnesses easily enough. Cats can be trained, and one excellent idea is to actually set up training schools like they do for dogs, they require different techniques, but it can be a boon to both wildlife and cats. I do think that no un-neutered cat should be allowed outside, fix em up first, train them, and you can control there behavior to NOT hunt as well as hunt.

It is kinda of funny but I described how my cats are outside, see, we have a mole problem in the back yard, and erosion we are trying to stop, a relatively steep hill makes it worse. Yet our cats do nothing about moles, mice or any other small critter, and we don't even get birds. Cats always like presenting presents you know, for ours its fireflies and moths, talk about disgusting! Of course, at first they were scolded on birds, and we praised them on the insects, its called modifying behavior. They probably think we are strange, and you might as well, but we pretended to eat the insects, and reject the birds. They stopped hunting birds after about 3 months.

Takes patience, but it is possible, besides the odd individual cat of course.

ON EDIT: Modified my atrocious grammar and spelling

[retnavyliberal]

158. I am a cat lover and owner

but I am also an environmentalist, member of the National Audubon Society and avid bird watcher. I know that cats kill many animals and alot of this can be avoided just by keeping your cat indoors.

Here are some stats:

There are over 66 million pet cats in the United States. A recent poll show approximately 35 percent are kept exclusively indoors, leaving more than 40 million owned cats free to kill birds and other wildlife, all or part of the time. In addition, millions of stray and feral cats roam our cities, suburbs, farmlands and natural areas. Abandoned by their owners or lost (stray), or descendants of strays and shunning all human contact (feral), these cats are victims of human irresponsibility through owner abandonment and the failure to spay or neuter pets. No one knows how many homeless cats there are in the U.S., but estimates range from 60 to 100 million. These creatures lead short, miserable lives

<SNIP>

Virginia researchers compared free-roaming domestic pet cats in a rural setting and a more urban one. A total of 27 native species (eight birds, two amphibians, nine reptiles, and eight mammals, including the star-nosed mole, a species of special concern) were captured by a single rural cat. Four urban cats captured 21 native species (six birds, seven reptiles, and eight mammals). Between January and November 1990 each cat caught, on average, 26 native individuals in the urban area, and 83 in the rural area. The study did not count prey killed and completely consumed, prey killed and left elsewhere, or non-native prey. (Mitchell, J. and R.A. Beck. 1992. Free-ranging domestic cat predation on native vertebrates in rural and urban Virginia. Virginia Journal of Science 43:197-206.)

http://www.lcshelter.com/cat%20predation%20on%20birds.htm

There is the link. Lots of good info there. Bottom Line, as tree hugging liberals, lets keep the kitties in the house and on our laps where they belong.

[not fooled]

86. yeah, but raccoons if not squirrels & rabbits carry rabies

[gulfcoastliberal]

90. Friend, science & logic dictate that cats are terrible for the environment

but those who are infuriated about Bush ditching Kyoto and drilling ANWR suddenly say the environment is fucked anyway so cats extincting birds don't matter.

Observation of free-ranging domestic cats shows that some individuals can kill over 1000 wild animals per year <7>, although smaller numbers are more typical. Some of the data on kills suggest that free-ranging cats living in small towns kill an average of 14 wild animals each per year. Rural cats kill many more wild animals than do urban, or suburban cats <8>. Several studies found that up to 90% of free-ranging rural cats' diet was wild animals, and less than 10% of rural cats killed no wild animals <9>. Recent research <10> suggests that rural free-ranging domestic cats in Wisconsin may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year. The most reasonable estimates indicate that 39 million birds are killed in the state each year. Nationwide, rural cats probably kill over a billion small mammals and hundreds of millions of birds each year. Urban and suburban cats add to this toll. Some of these kills are house mice, rats and other species considered pests, but many are native songbirds and mammals
whose populations are already stressed by other factors, such as habitat destruction and pesticide pollution.

Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction. Cats are contributing to the endangerment of populations of birds such as Least Terns, Piping Plovers and Loggerhead Shrikes. In Florida, marsh rabbits in Key West have been threatened by predation from domestic cats <11>. Cats introduced by people living on the barrier islands of Florida's coast have depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats to near extinction <12, 13>.

Not only do cats prey on many small mammals and birds, but they can outnumber and compete with native predators. Domestic cats eat many of the same animals that native predators do. When present in large numbers, cats can reduce the availability of prey for native predators, such as hawks <14> and weasels <15>.

Free-ranging domestic cats may also transmit new diseases to wild animals. Domestic cats have spread feline leukemia virus to mountain lions <16> and may have recently infected the endangered Florida Panther with feline panleukopenia (feline distemper) and an immune deficiency disease <17>. These diseases may pose a serious threat to this rare species. Some free-ranging domestic cats also carry several diseases that are easily transmitted to humans, including rabies and toxoplasmosis <18>.



http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/speaker3.html

[Dave Reynolds]

100. One thing no one ever mentions, though,

are the predators that eat cats.

Around my parents property, the outdoor feral population (my mother feeds them) is kept pretty stable by foxes and coyotes. Raccoons also eat kittens.

There are three bird feeders as well as a birdbath by where the cats have an old doghouse to sleep in, as well as where they are fed.

These cats have been singularly inept at killing birds. They do a fine job with rodents. Squirrels, raccoons, rabbits, and opossums seem to be doing well against the feline onslaught.

This really all just seems so overblown to me.

[Cleita]

22. How would you know if there is cat feces in your yard?

Cats bury their excrement and urine. I think you are blaming cats for other animals pooping in your yard. Cats like loose dirt and don't dig in hard dirt. So if you've been planting beds, it's best to net them in the beginning, not only for cats but other varmints and birds that may be interested in your tender new plants.

[annabanana]

26. there is loose dirt on either side of our

concrete street... The cats seem to like the shelter of our minivan wheel to poop (i.e. right in front of the driver's door)..

There is very little question of "knowing it's there" when you realize you are grinding it into the grooves on the accelerator!

[Cleita]

37. I use chicken wire for a lot of things. If you don't want

the cats using the loose dirt wherever it bothers you. Tack down chicken wire over it or burlap or whatever seems to work for you. The cats don't like it and will go somewhere else. I use chicken wire to discourage gophers from eating my plants. This is how I cope in the country. I use deterrents. My bird feeders are out of reach of predators and I put a barrier of plants in pots with water basins underneath them which discourages them. A little thought goes a long way.

[XemaSab]

142. The point is

that it shouldn't be the responsibility of the property owner to protect her property from other people's cats, it should be the responsibility of the cat owner.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

30. That's the problem.

The feces can't be seen and it gets mixed with the soil and spreads toxoplasmosis. I've never heard of that being carried by any animal other than domestic cats.

This thread is not about my neighbor issues no matter how some posters try to make it out that way. Free-roaming domestic pet cats are an environmental nuisance, a public health hazard, and an infringement on the rights of others. I also believe it is inhumane for the cats.

[meisje]

41. I use a catch-em-alive trap and send them to the shelter

[Scout]

47. how much do those kind of traps cost? n/t

[BikeWriter]

92. You ought to smell my garage!

[KT2000]

106. You have poop from all kinds

of animals in your garden already. If you have cats in the area they are keeping the mouse, mole, rat population down.

If you got pregnant you better be careful in your garden no matter what - are you going to keep a security camera on all the time to see if a cat poops in it? You will likely see many other animals doing just that.

I had a neighbor who killed the neighborhood cats because he though they were digging up his bulbs. Of course it was racoons that were doing it.

[patricia92243]

4. Muddy cat paw-prints on your car can be very annoying-especially when it's

not your cat.

[Toucano]

87. Very annoying? VERY?

The past 4 years has significantly altered my "very annoying" threshold, I guess. ;)

I find the cat prints lightly annoying to inconsequential now.

[donheld]

148. Agreed.

Cat paw prints on my car is one of the least of my worries. Now if it was a lion or tiger i might get disturbed, but until then forget it.

[SmokingJacket]

7. No. Cats should be free to roam around.

Or else we shouldn't have domesticated the damn things in the first place.

Breed them, domesticate them, cut off their claws, spay them, keep them trapped 24/7 in a stinky apartment. Some life.

Cats hurt no one. Leave them alone.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

11. Dogs and horses are domesticated.

We don't let them roam around freely. We require their owners to be responsible for them or not own them.

[TahitiNut]

104. People keep cats, dogs, pigs, ferrets, skunk, birds, fish, gerbils, ...

... hamsters, goats, horses, snakes, and a wide variety of other animals, both 'domesticated' and not, as pets. I enjoy them all. Even snakes. Why is it that only (some) cat-fanciers have this delusion that they have little or no responsibility to keep their pet under control?
Hell, I always thought those were the Republicans! Maybe I've been wrong. Maybe not. :silly:

[murray hill farm]

12. I do let my cats out at night...

but if they became a problem for my neighbors, i would respect that and keep them in at night..and cats really are much safer..and do learn to quickly adapt...so, yes, i would agree, that if cats are a problem, then a person should have the right to legally force a neighbor to keep them in the house.

[QC]

171. Hogs are domesticated.

Shall we just let them roam around free to root around in people's yards?

[MissB]

8. Can someone add their ten foot pole to mine

I don't think mine is quite long enough to touch this one.

[Tess49]

25. I'll loan you mine

[etherealtruth]

9. Cats can shred a garbage bag in a nanosecond...

Takes me forever to pick all the trash up again. Please be responsible for your cats.

[napi21]

17. Put your garbage in a can with a secure lid!

Most of the time, when garbage is shreded, it's racoons, not cats. Who are you going to complain to about them?

[etherealtruth]

21. Whoa...

I guess I don't take this as seriously as you do... If racoons come, I'll mutter swear words softly under my breath as I pick up the trash, just as I do after the cats. Our city sanitation workers notoriously toss trash can lids into the back of the trucks...

[lastknowngood]

14. If you feed the birds you know the answer

n/t

[annabanana]

15. Really depends on the neighborhood...

I love kitties, I really do.. but we have some feral cats in the neighborhood (that a slightly ditsy lady who lives about 4 miles away feeds occasionally)..In mild winters, they breed, in cold winters they freeze and starve to death. In summer they tear each other to shreds and are eaten alive by fleas and ticks, and all year long they get hit by cars and trains. At least twice a year one gets into our backyard when my (otherwise VERY sweet, gentle lab mix) dog is, and gets cruelly shaken to death.

Sadly, many of these poor cats AREN'T really wild cats, just loose. If you really love your cat... keep him safe at home.

[Skip Intro]

18. No. Cats aren't dogs. When does being "native" start?,

if the animal's a nuisance then that's one thing, but if its a feral cat, they'll move on if you make it clear to them that they need to move on (not violently, of course).

No, feral cats are doing all they can just to survive. They don't need another obstacle. They're all about surviving.

Domestic cats are not tigers.

Why would a snake have a better right to be there.

And bunnies shouldn't be left unprotected and unattended.

No leashing/fencing in of cats, for that reason. The happy cat at the edge of the woods on your drive home has earned a right to be there.

[XemaSab]

143. There shouldn't BE feral cats

Period.

They're not wild animals, and the wild animals that currently live in North America co-evolved. This means that they are in balence with one another.

Cats are enormously destructive to wild birds, lizards, and small mammals. Most bird species in North America are in decline, and once they are gone they are gone forever.

Furthermore, how has that cat earned a "right" to be there? Because it's irresponsible owner threw it out of the house to go hang out by the road and risk being hit? What's the difference between that and animal abandonment?

[BikeWriter]

179. A sensible and responsible post, XemaSab!

[Cleita]

19. Another cat hating thread I see.

I also wonder what you claim as your wildlife. Wildlife goes where it wants whether you want it there or not and so do cats. I do my best to confine my cat, for its own protection against predators, but my neighbors' cats often come by for visits and I don't mind. Their chickens and children do too. I guess I have a different attitude toward beasts who aren't able to understand the rules simian species put on them.

I haven't known any of these cats to cause the damage dogs can, yet dogs don't mind being confined to a dog yard. Cats hate to be tied up or confined. Thank God my neighbors are animal owners and lovers themselves. I don't know what I'd do if I lived next to people who built an imaginary fence around what they consider theirs.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

23. I can't protect the wildlife on other people's property.

I try to make my own yard a habitat for wildlife.
http://www.nwf.org/backyardwildlifehabitat/

And domestic cats are not a natural part of any ecological system in the U.S. That is why wildlife experts urge cat owners to keep them indoors and away from the natural wildlife.
http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/article.cfm?issueid=61&articleid=768

But I guess you're just so much more of an animal lover than I am. :eyes:

[Cleita]

28. Bobcats are a part of the habitat in my part of the country.

Bobcats behave very much like tabby except that they might snack on tabby too. And don't do eyes to me. I spent ten years in some of the wildest areas of this country enjoying the solitude and the wildlife. I wonder how much of an animal lover you will be when the deer come by and eat in your garden and bears climb your trees for edibles?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

34. I'm obviously not talking about "native" cats like bobcats.

I clearly said DOMESTIC cats... non-native

[Solon]

38. True, however...

Unless we are talking about Hawaii, most natural animals on the continent are already adapted to ground and tree predators. We do not have ground nesting birds here naturally. In my area, for example, racoons and other wildlife are more likely to get killed by cars than cats, and squirrels, well, cats try to get them in my area, but they fail more often than not. Also, most of our birds, except for smaller ones, fend for themselves quite well, its very rare to see a cardinal killed by a cat in my area, and blue jays are more likely to harrass the cats rather than the other way around.

[XemaSab]

145. Actually,

we have MANY native ground-nesting birds.

Wrens, nightjars, quail, juncos, many sparrows, plovers, sandpipers, meadowlarks, pipits, waterthrushes, and many warblers make ground nests.

On edit: forgot gulls, terns, most seabirds, and ducks.

[Cleita]

42. Yes, but your objection was to the domestic cat's behavior

which is the same as the bobcat's behavior. They can also carry the same diseases. Sorry, you just really don't like other people's cats, admit it. This isn't about your love of wildlife at all. And, speaking of native cats, how do you feel about your friendly neighborhood cougar? Now, that's one big kitty cat. We have one we have spotted around our place not to mention what he's left behind that indicates his presence. Oh, and he's a native.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

48. It's so wonderful how you can read other people's minds.

You just KNOW that I don't really care about wildlife. I just hate cats. You are incredibly perceptive. (sarcasm)

I don't live in an area with bobcats or cougars. I expect when wild animals become a nuisance it is because humans have infringed on their habitat too much or have interfered with the ecological balance in some other ways...but that's an entirely separate issue from what we're discussing here. I think people probably shouldn't own cougars and bobcats as pets, and since this thread is about the behavior of pet owners, I don't see where bobcats and cougars are relevant.

[Cleita]

55. No...wwildlife becomes a nuisance to humans when those

very humans think that the wildlife should be killed or removed because they aren't behaving in the manner Mr. Human thinks they should. By the same token when a species is introduced where it didn't live once and has naturalized like our cats and dogs, then we have to make allowances for their behavior. Jeeze. How hard is that? Besides, have you really ever thought of going and talking to your neighbors about the problem? Maybe that would be a start. You may find out it wasn't their domestic pet at all.

[ultraist]

61. That's not natural to create your own habitat. Do you have bird feeders?

That's intefering with nature. And what about your plants? Do you have plants that are only native to your region? Do you have grass? Were trees cut down to build your house?

Point being, the "not natural" or native argument doesn't stick. NOTHING in our current yard environments is totally natural. Our country has only 3% of it's natural forests.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

67. I do what I can, within reason.

I do try to stick to native plants, especially ones that attract wildlife. My yard was all lawn when we bought it, but I'm trying to change that. I'm not creating my own habitat, I'm attempting to make my yard a more natural habitat, as it must have once been. No trees were cut to build my house because it was farmland first, and I'm not the original owner anyway.

Of course, I could live in a hut and walk around naked, but I don't consider that reasonable. I need to work at a job to support myself, and I need to drive a car to get there. I tried to live close to my job. I do what I can. What's your point?

[ultraist]

73. Your house wasn't built with wood?

My point is, that your "not natural" or "not native" argument doesn't hold up. Do you realize how many plants, animals and insects are not native in our environments?

The only legit concerns I see here are the poop issues and if the animal is not neutered or does some type of damage, such as tearing up your screens. The 'not native' is irrelevant.

[XemaSab]

146. The damage done is mostly to native wildlife

and that's where the "non-native" argument comes in.

"Non-native" is an accepted legal argument for keeping ferrets and gerbils out of California, as well as the lack of protection for starlings and house sparrows. They're not native, they're destuctive, and the fewer the better.

[BikeWriter]

94. Thank you for your caring and logic. :-)

[etherealtruth]

24. On the contrary

The cats that roam here are really the cats that are unprotected and not adequately cared for --- I never mind a visit from a friendly cat. As with my kids, they may be cute, but they're not welcome everywhere.

[Cleita]

29. We have feral cats, but most don't come near people.

They are that wary of humans.

[Solon]

27. If they are trained, then none of that is necessary...

We live in a standard suburb, and trained our cats from a young age to stay in the neighborhood, and mostly they just hang around in the front and back yards. They don't even climb our two bigass trees in the back yard, they go up the trunk about 4 feet and then jump down. Never had a cat before that was afraid of heights, but that's what they do. Cats, like dogs, can be trained for any number of things, such as not crossing the street and other things. The problems people have is that many times, putting cats on leashes isn't practical, you can't use a collar, only a harness will do, and some cats slip out of those easily enough, no matter how small the harnesses are. Keep them fixed, and supervise them when they go outdoors for the first 2 years, teaching them consistant and practical restrictions, and you will have a happy and healthy cat that will live for a long time. Ours are 10 years old, in excellent health, and we keep up with the shots, which is very important, beyond those things, cats are pretty self sufficient.

[Cleita]

31. True.

When my husband and I were traveling in our trailer, we had three cats. We had them trained to stay close to the trailer unless we took them for a walk. It took awhile but they got the idea.

[Solon]

35. That's the thing, be consistant but more important, be patient...

Our common tactic was to call them by their names sharply, and yell NO, they usually freak and run straight to us, then as punishment, they are sent inside. Cats will not roam around if they have two things, one is being well fed, another is a safe quiet place to hang out, that's what are yards serve as. I just get sick of those people that say cats are untrainable, they aren't, they are at least as smart as dogs, the only difference is personality really. They have shorter attention spans, so compensate for that, and you will have a very happy healthy cat.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

39. You really know how to win friends here

:eyes:

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eternalburn]

33. Hmmmm......

Interesting post. It's always good when a post makes you think :)

I have cats. I keep them indoors for their own safety. They aren't declawed though because I know I wouldn't want someone chopping off the end of my finger to get rid of my fingernail so I wouldn't do the same to any other creature. Plus if they ever did get out I would want them to be fully armored to be able to climb or fight if they needed to.

They can do damage over time (you should see my couch) but that is something I can live with. However if I had an outdoor pet that was doing damage to someone elses property or causing them duress I would not expect them to put up with it. Animal lovers sometimes are befuddled by those who don't find animals as wonderful as they do. Your neighbors might not realize how you feel about outside cats.

There are cats in this neighborhood that roam freely. They are obviously pets. Since I have a high tolerance for cat behavior I don't mind them. There's so many animals around this area they just sorta blend in.

The few times our garbage has been torn open it has been a raccoon, (the first time) and a couple of skunks (the two times after that). We have never busted a feline screwing with the garbage on the curb.

Have you talked to your neighbor/neighbors about your concerns?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

43. Other neighbors have asked him to keep the cat indoors.

But like many here, he insists that it is an "outdoor" cat. It's annoying, but it's an inconsiderate world and I think it's one of those neighbor things ya just gotta live with.

People need to become educated about the impact of cats on native wildlife. I haven't always known about it myself. I remember I used to feed stray cats sometimes in college. It's when I started researching how to make my yard wildlife-friendly that I started learning about the toll free-roaming cats take on the environment.

[eternalburn]

68. Ya know.....

...there is stuff that warns away certain animals.

I ran out to the garage so I could see if I was correct and make sure I got the name right :)

When we had our skunk problem we bought this organic stuff "Shake Away". It's a powder made of predator urine. They have specific types for whatever animal you are having problems with.

Ours is for Skunks obviously but on the back of the package they have a formula especially to ward off cats.

You sprinkle it around the perimeter of your yard or garden and the kitties think there is something in your yard that might eat them and they stay away.

It worked extremely well with our marauding skunks.

[bvar22]

36. Bug

[thedailyshow]

40. Cats should be fucking put on a leash

and I'm massively allergic and I hate it when a cat jumps through an open window into my house.

[infusionman]

74. Try putting a cat on a leash...see what happens. N/T

[seabeyond]

44. i get cat poop in my yard, cat owners dont care

and i am not a proponent to shoot the things. i dont like cats. it is something i suck up. i think it is inconsiderate of cat owners, but hey. not a big enough issue for me to hassle anyone over.

[Cleita]

49. How do you know it's cat poop unless you dig for it?

Cats like loose dirt to poop in because they DIG and BURY it. The best thing to do is plant in the areas you don't want dug into. Use ground cover plants that cover those areas. You can also lay chicken wire just under the top layer of dirt. Cat's hate it and seeds will grown through it. This isn't rocket science.

[seabeyond]

60. i can do all this because of someone elses cat

and i can cover sand box and yada yada...........like i say, it is an inconsideration of the cat owner., one i am willing to say live and let live. not something to make a deal over.

i remember threads where people would like children out of restaurants and grocery stores. such a to do.

well, i can suck it up, as can people that dont want kids running around. part of living amongst fellow man. i know cat lovers that have such passion for hteir animals. that i can value over my yuk of cats

plus, about three years ago, we had a cat, that would spend a lot of time in back yard. for whatever reason this cat decided she needed to make friends with our new puppy. kept it company. was the oddest relationship for 6 months. my boys would sit in amazement of this cat

i can always find the good.

[BikeWriter]

93. Cat poop smells like cat poop. I can smell it yards away.

Keep your cats off my property and we will get along famously. :-)

[BensMom]

45. Keep your cats to yourself

I am a nature lover. And I try to keep it organic and natural.

The last 2 years I have been overcome with grasshoppers in a flowerbed. And they are not easy to deal with. Where are all the birds that would usually lunch on them??

Oh what birds - my neighborhood cats scare them away.

[Cleita]

50. Oh, it's all the fault of the cats and not maybe other reasons

the birds have moved on, like their habitat being destroyed by development?

[BikeWriter]

102. Cat owners should confine their animals as common courtesy to others.

We have just as much right to be free from them on our property as you do to have them on yours.

[BikeWriter]

96. Thank you, Ma'am. I agree.

[quinnox]

46. absolutely not

Cats are wonderful creatures, and they deserve to have the freedom to run around.

Too bad for you and others that agree with this, because your proposal will never happen, thankfully.

I am always suspicious of people who don't like cats, they tend to be psychos and cruel people.

Dogs, on the other hand, should be leashed and contained for public safety.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

51. I have a cat.

She is kept safe inside.

[Cleita]

52. Well, also dogs don't mind being confined as long as they

can run a couple of times a day and someone plays with them. They are dangerous if they run loose because they are territorial. They also kill a lot if they are allowed to roam. It's just their nature to chase something, a rabbit, a bird, a squirrel and kill it. Anyone who thinks cats are destructive haven't seen what unrestrained dogs can do. Also, they poop and pee on everything.

[quinnox]

53. I know, dogs can be a menace

They are 1000 times more messy than cats. And they even attack humans sometimes. Dogs can't really help it, they are too dumb, unlike cats.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

57. I don't think that's necesarily true either.

"Well, also dogs don't mind being confined as long as they can run a couple of times a day and someone plays with them."

I think many, many dogs in this country are confined in spaces that are too small and are not permitted the exercise they need. A border collie, for axample, probably needs a farm to work on to be at its happiest. Of course, small companion dogs might be happy and healthy even in an apartment. It really depends on the type of dog.

[Cleita]

71. Of course it does, now you are getting the idea.

You have to work with the animal's nature. I dog sit my neighbor's dog while they are at work. We go for rides, work in the garden and watch TV. Mainly, she just likes the company, although she has a whole pasture she can run free in, she won't go down there unless I am with her. But this dog's nature is having company.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

76. No, that's part of my larger point.

I would not have a border collie even though I admire them. I don't have the space to make one happy. Some people on here seem to be saying that since a border collie needs so much room to roam, a person who owns a border collie should be allowed to let it wander all over the neighborhood. I say if you don't have the room, don't have one. I see no reason a cat can't be kept indoors, but if you insist a cat needs to roam to be happy, don't have a cat.

[Cleita]

77. Some cats are happy indoors, others hate it and can't be

confined. However, they can be trained to stay in their own yard. You really should go talk to your neighbor. I also think that you may have other problems, like racoons and possums that can do damage that people think are cats. Another poster suggested getting cat repellant. It's an idea.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

79. If cats can _really_ be trained to stay in their own yards, that's fine.

My very first post referred to keeping cats on their owner's property or in their owner's control instead of roaming in other people's yards... not to keeping cats indoors at all times, although I don't think it's necessarily cruel to do so.

This isn't really about some issue I have with a neighbor, and I wish I hadn't even mentioned him because it's all anyone wants to focus on. It's the middle of winter so I hadn't even thought about it in months. This thread was prompted by the Wisconsin thread. I do think that property owners' rights is an important issue here, but that doesn't mean I was being disingenuous about the other issues I mentioned -- the wildlife decimation, the toxoplasmosis, the endangerment of the cats themselves, etc.

And as far as cats being non-native and non-natural, my point is this: a lawn chair is unnatural, but I don't think it has a profound effect on wildlife or the environment. Domesticated dogs are unnatural. Lawns are unnatural. I don't know what environmental damage a dog may do on its owner's property, but I don't really have any control over that anyway. I don't see stray dogs on my lawn, so I know they're not wreaking environmental havoc on my property. I do see cats on my property and I've read about the environmental damage they can do. The information comes from environmental orgs that I trust. People objected to the Wisconsin proposal because they didn't like the idea of someone's pet getting shot. I think it's appropriate to give special treatment to dogs and cats that people keep as pets and not simply shoot them the way a rural dweller might shoot a possom or raccoon that was killing chickens. We allow this differentiation on the basis of the special love we feel for our pets. But I think it's wrong to stretch that to the extent that we think that any cat -- even one not owned by anyone -- is somehow "worth more" than a possum or a raccoon. If anything, I think it's arguable that a domestic cat or dog is "worth less" than a native species, from a purely environmental standpoint. Of course, from an environmental standpoint only, the killing of a human being is not something that's going to have a severe negative effect on the environment. That's not to say I advocate killing humans. But some cat owner's want to create this nebulous middle category for cats where we allow them to roam free as though they were wildlife, but want the special protection for them that we grant to other pets. I don't think that's right.

[XemaSab]

149. Word

I've had cats kill birds on my lawn, and it makes me ANGRY. :mad:

Your point about cat people wanting cats to have the impugnity granted wildlife while having special protection given pets is very on target.

I'll add that "free roaming" cat people claim that they're doing it for the sake of the animal, and they're quite willing to brand people who disagree as animal haters. However, they're totally unwilling in most cases to face the fact that feral cats have short and miserable lives, and way too many "owned" cats are killed by cars, coyotes, dogs, and other dangers.

How is a half-starving feral cat happy? How is it kind to a cat to let it roam the neighborhood getting into trouble?

In a certain other infamous thread, someone compared children with cats, and I think the comparison is not a bad one.

We don't let toddlers run around outside doing whatever they want because there's too much danger outside, and if you did so, you'd be jailed for neglect. If you let your teenager run around vandalizing property, being loud at all hours, and killing wildlife, you also wouldn't be a good parent.

Indoor cats live an average of seven years longer than outdoor cats. That's HUGE. I don't know how a so-called "cat lover" can fail to be shocked at that statistic.

And free-roaming cats kill millions, if not billions of birds, lizards, and rodents a year. Many of the cats doing the killing are "owned" cats who do not need to kill to eat, but nevertheless have a hunting instinct that they cannot resist, the same instict that makes a string or ball of paper so appealing for a cat.

Cats should be kept indoors.

[XemaSab]

147. How is it not the nature of cats to chase things and kill them?

n/t

[porkrind]

178. "psychos and cruel people"

So, do you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is a cruel psycho? Let's review your argument:

1) Cats are wonderful and should be free to run around.
2) Anyone who doesn't agree is a cruel psycho.
3) Dogs should be leashed and contained for public safety.

gotcha.

[Siyahamba]

54. Yes, but animal control should deal with it, not a bullet.

Would anyone advocate shooting a dog that was off its property?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

63. I started this thread to avoid that issue.

This thread isn't about shooting them. It's about whether they should be allowed to roam freely. Wildlife can go where it wants. Dogs and people have to stay where they belong. I think cats belong in the same category as people and dogs.

[Siyahamba]

128. I agree, all pets should be bound by the same rules.

[LisaL]

56. Non-native? LOL. One might argue humans are non-native too.

I mean, at some point of time, it doesn't matter anymore if cat is non-native-it's here to stay.

[Cleita]

58. Yep.

:thumbsup:

[ultraist]

66. The non native or not natural argument it totally bogus

I posted further up the thread on that too.

I don't really care if my neighbors' cats hang out in my yard and they do, as long as they are neutered so they don't spray my lawn furniture or impregnant other cats that will end up overcrowding the animal shelters and get put to sleep.

There is a cat overpopulation problem. Unspayed or unneutered pets should not be allowed to roam outdoors.

[livinginphotographs]

62. I believe cats should be kept inside.

Mainly for their safety. Just like I wouldn't let young children wander aimlessly unsupervised, because both are more likely to be gored by a Hummer when allowed to just run free.

I also think EVERYONE should spay or neuter their cats, dogs, ferrets, whatever.

[infusionman]

64. The real issue here is...

You have too much time on your hands.

[radwriter0555]

65. My neighbor's cat DESTROYED my miata's car door and window by climbing

UNDER the car cover, while I had it covered for the winter.

Over $1,200 for the repairs.

THANKS lazy ass cat owners.

AND cats should be required to be kept on their owner's property or it's fair game.

[Cleita]

69. I would definitely give the owner the bill or take him to

small claims court. You would have a good case. I'm sure the owner will figure out a way to confine his cat in that case. I personally do not let my pets damage other people's property. You need to blame the human though not the animal that is just being a cat.

[minerva50]

137. The owner can't be held responsible

if you don't have a lease law, I believe. At least that's what happened in a small claims case I observed some years ago.

[infusionman]

70. What about Deer...

I live in Pennsylvania where there are m8llions of them.

During the rut, they get bold enough to start walking streets and have battles with cars, etc. The winner usually is the car, but not without serious damage.

All in the name of sport.

I think all deer should be killed to prevent accidents.

PS: I am looking for a two million grant to do a study on why birds fly directly in front of your car while driving, causing us to slam on our brakes and freak out.

Anyone want to help with that?

[Cleita]

72. Your birds are suididal? That's a new one. Maybe

you should look into the water supply.

About the deer. If we were more enlightened, we would have wildlife areas built around our suburban places with raised roads so the deer can travel under the roads through tunnels. There is someplace that they do this, but I forget where now.

[ultraist]

75. And the deer overpopulation is not natural either

[Unforgiven]

78. Yes

and thank you for saying so, anyone who lets their pets roam at large are the problem, not the animals.

[ozone_man]

80. Cats are very clean and cover their poop with dirt,

or at least all cats that I've known. Dogs don't do that. Plus there is the size factor. Dogs have huge turds. So, this may be one of the reasons that there has not been a law on the books regulating cats outdoor use.

I live in a cat friendly neighborhood, where they roam across each others yards. There is one bitchy neighbor a few doors down who is alergic, and doesn't want her kids petting them and picking up dander. She is kind of neurotic. We suggested that she tell her kids not to pet the cats.

One argument for keeping the cats outdoors, aside from the fact that they are much happier outdoors, is that we have a somewhat of squirrel overpopulation problem. There are a lot of trees here, and there are not enough natural predators to keep them controlled. The squirrels eat the bird seed that is supposed to go for the birds, and try to find places to Winter over in the garage, etc. I do like squirrels, but in moderation. My cats are quite skilled at catching and eating them, plus it saves on cat food. The cats feel very proud of themselves when they have brought home a good catch. Usually, only the tail is left. They don't like to eat all that fur. :-) They catch mice, the occasional rat, a few birdies. I try to make sure they can't reach the feeders, but they are so clever.

The thing that I notice with my cats is that they really appreciate the outdoors and are so happy and relaxed when they come back inside. I understand that not everyone can have an outdoor cat, some neighborhoods are inappropriate to put a cat outdoors. But as a human, imagine what it would be like if you had to be an inside human, never being able to experience the woods or gardens. I think a cat has even more heightened senses in that repect, so it is almost cruel to keep a cat only inside. But, sometimes it must be, and some humans only get to be indoors as well. Not the end of the world.

In summary, I think there are other ways to deal with the problem that you describe. The spray bottle sounds like a good way to teach them that they are not welcome in your yard. Maybe chain the dog out side a few hours a day. They should get the hint.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

84. So your neighbor is "bitchy"...

...because she is allergic to cats and wants you to keep YOUR allergen-carrying pet out of HER yard and away from HER children.

But you are happy to have your cats kill and eat squirrels all over the neighborhood.

I'm not terribly worried about common squirrels becoming endangered, but why are your cats worth more than the squirrels they kill? If a neighborhood dog attacked and killed your cat, you'd want it put to sleep.

And I keep hearing from all these cat owners how none of their neighbors mind or care that they let their cats go free. I wonder how many of them actually went out and surveyed their neighbors? People, as a rule, like to avoid confrontation. Just because they haven't said anything to you directly, doesn't mean they don't mind. How would they even know who the cat belongs to? And here is a neighbor who HAS told you how she feels about it, and you ignore her request and call her "bitchy." Are you starting to see why people might not be eager to tell you they don't like your cats in their yard? (I'm addressing to this to people generally, not just you specifically.)

[ozone_man]

132. There is a dog leash law where I live.

But no cat leash law. Regarding allergies, well there are many sources of allergies. The neighbor from a few doors down simply has to tell her kids not to pet the cats to avoid her cat allergy problem. It's not just us who think she is kind of neurotic.

Regarding dogs that kill cats, I think living in a neighborhood with little kids, parents would not look highly on the owner of such an animal. Sometimes pets such as bull mastiffs, rottweilers, etc. that are trained as attack dogs, actually attack and kill little kids, and sometimes adults. We live in a very friendly neighborhood without such attack dogs. Kind of a labrador retriever kind of neighborhood

I do ask my neighbors if they mind. My next door neighbor has a cat that came from one our cat's litters. When they are away and their cat gets lonely, she wanders into our house. The other next door neighbor has an indoor cat. Our cats often wander inside their house. Kind of a communal situation. Nobody minds, except for the sort of "bitchy" neighbor a few houses down.

But, like I said, it depends on the neighborhood, is it country, city, friendly, not? In our neighborhood, cats run free and dogs are walked on a leash. out in the country, there are no leash laws, and if I where a cat owner, I would be a bit more concerned, and not so much about dogs, but coyotes. Coyotes have filled the niche that has been left open by wolves in our state. I think they have migrated from out West, and are amazingly successful. Most hunters hate them, because they want all the deer to hunt for themselves, not acknowledging that predators take the weaker of the herd, thus strengthening the gene pool. Hunters often take the biggest, prize deer with antlers, which is not good for the gene pool.

Cats, though domestic, occupy an interesting niche, still catching quite a few rodents, including squirrels. One poster mentioned that the Black Plague may have been caused by the purging of cats ordered by the Catholic Church. I haven't heard this before, but it is very interesting.

It sounds to me like you may have some sort of cat problem. I'm sorry that your cat has no claws, and is doomed to an inside existence.

[BikeWriter]

98. What gives you the right to impose your cats on your neighbor's land?

[ozone_man]

134. Not imposing to most people

otherwise I think there would be a law about this by now. What about birds and their poop? I get annoyed when a pigeon or gull takes a dump on my nice and clean automobile, but I don't try to pass an ordinance preventing them from doing so. Raccoons or skunks tend to wander into my yard, the skunks poke around in the ground looking for food of some sort, making all these little holes in the lawn, while the raccoons tend to be more interested in the garbage. I've got a heavy duty can now that only a bear could get into. I only wish that I lived where deer would enter the yard. Actually, I'm sort of glad that I don't live out in the country, otherwise the threat of coyotes or foxes would be significant. Like I said, it depends where you live, the neighbors, etc. Where I live, cats roam free, and there is a leash law for dogs. Personally, I would not own a dog, if I had to keep him on a leash. I grew up with a dog without a leash law. They are meant for the country. Also, I would be mortified, if my dog killed a cat no matter where he encountered it. But I can understand that sometimes an attack dog may be required in some neighborhoods to keep the house safe.

[BikeWriter]

111. "They should get the hint." Uh, I raised rough dogs.. I've seen cat guts..

...strewn around my yard. It was not the fault of my dogs. They felt as if they'd protected their home.

[Toucano]

89. I think it depends on the neighborhood.

My cats are indoor cats. Once in a blue moon I let them out individually over the course of the afternoon, but I supervise them.

I would never let them just roam about. It would be bad for them and the wildlife they would hunt. My cats have an unfair advantage over the wild animals.

In some neighborhoods, it probably doesn't matter as much.

I think cats should be licensed, though.

[BikeWriter]

91. I'm with you, 100%....

...If someone's cat pisses on my valuables or food I'm not going to be happy with them or their cat!

[TrustingDog]

95. I love cats, but...

if I had one shitting in my yard and screaming under my window at night I'd be rather annoyed.

If you want a pet, it's YOUR pet, not your neighbours pet.

[BikeWriter]

99. Thank you for being a responsible pet owner! :-)

[Dave Reynolds]

97. You have your own wildlife?

Just askin..

[WillowTree]

101. I wouldn't even consider letting my cats roam.

Because I love them. People do terrible, cruel things to cats and I couldn't sleep at night if I left them at risk. The days when a domestic cat could be allowed to wander and just do their own cat thing are long past. I had one of mine slip out unbeknownst to me last year and I didn't realize she was gone until the next morning. I spent 8 solid hours searching for her, terrified of what could have happened to this small, vulnerable creature, crying myself into dehydration.

After that, if there was any question in my mind about letting them go cruising, there isn't anymore. (She was eventually found, safe, by the way.) I won't even let them out in the back yard without a leash and my presence. Just not worth the risk. Sometimes I take them to the park with me on nice days. I sit and read and enjoy the outdoors and the people to watch and they roam on short leashes, no more than six feet, investigating all of the new sniffables within their little circles. They sometimes also go to the cemetery with me, also on leashes, in the Summer months when I go out to tend my parents' graves. But that's the extent of their outdoor excursions. And my concern isn't half as much about other people and/or their lawns or potential paw prints on their cars. It's about caring for the animals that just don't have the tools to protect themselves in urban/suburban America.

[BikeWriter]

105. Thank you for being responsible for your pets.

[WillowTree]

108. I only have them because I love animals.

If I won the Lotto, I'd make like a friend of mine and build on the outskirts of civilization and keep all kinds of critters.

But if we have them, it's our responsibility to take proper care of them and look out for their safety and well-being.

OOPS! They heard me typing about them and are now begging for treats. Gotta run.

[BikeWriter]

113. LOL! I'm sure you have some Sweeties! :-)

[Blue Diadem]

103. lifetime cat owner here

I've had cats just about my entire life

I've seen the damage outdoor cats can cause and the danger that they are in.

Cats can and will climb screens, one currently does at my neighbors house. We had one visitor who would climb our screen door to look in my kitchen window. I had to call an elderly neighbor who had left her car window down to let her know that it looked like an animal was in her car...yep it was a cat.

Roaming cats have p'd on my screen doors, the grill cover, patio furniture, newspaper, tennis shoes on the porch etc. I've seen them locked accidently in garages. They get run over by morons who like to swerve to hit animals or because they dart across the road.

Then there are the antifreeze deaths because they drink what dribbled in a driveway or was spilled.

I had one that died at my feet after someone shot her when I was a young girl.

My only indoor/outdoor cat in years was a male, neutered, but still very territorial since he was a rescued feral cat. I had more vet bills from him fighting off other cats. He'd get infections from cat bites and even one bite from a squirrel that bit through his nose when they fell two stories out of a tree while fighting. The only thing he would run and hide from was the big old owl who would stop by in the evenings.

My opinion is that keeping cats indoors, outdoors on a leash, or in a fenced area with no ease to climb, is not only safer for the cat, but better for neighbors as well.


I don't buy that cats do so much damage to the bird or bunny population though..


Ever seen a hawk having lunch or an owl a midnight snack? It's not a pretty site and it's why I quit feeding the birds.


edited to add that our current cat(actually grandkitty) is strictly indoors..a rescue from barn cats, a present to my granddaughter from her other grandmother. Kitty was born with feline leukemia and was the only kitten that survived.

Just one more reason to keep cats indoors, spayed/neutered.

[retnavyliberal]

172. Great that you are a responsible owner. Here is some data from above

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3241595&mesg_id=3247778&page=

[Bigmack]

110. Laws....

state and county.. in everywhere I've ever lived.... say that people have to keep their animals on their own property.

I'm not one of those compulsive rule followers, but if YOUR animal is on MY land, you need to come and get it. I don't give a shit if it's a cat or not, and neither does the law.

In both places I live, in addition to state and county laws, there are covenants that specify landowners must keep their pets on their own property unless on a leash. At least 10 cats run loose in each community.

If you cat is on somebody else's property, it's not the cat's fault.. it's yours!

[BikeWriter]

112. Right on, Mack!

[minerva50]

138. Not true.

Very few localities have leash laws that apply to cats.
Edited to say that in most places you are allowed to "humanely" capture nuisance cats on your property, and either return them to the owner or to the proper authority, but in most places cats are allowed to be "free-roaming."

[Clark2008]

114. Dogs aren't cats, but cats can be as destructive

It's the hypocracy of it. I wish there were leash laws for cats.
My neighbors know I have an errant dog that gets (finds, schemes...) loose every so often and I don't mind their cats getting (scheming, finding...) lose every so often, either. It happens. It's a part of pet ownership.
But, what's unacceptable is having to control your own dogs in your own yard because there's a cat that shouldn't be there, every day, all the time.
If I thought my dogs could catch the damn thing - then, well, law of nature (the cat's maybe 15 pounds, I have a 120-pound dog. Lay your money down on who'd win), but it's a little boy's pet, so I wouldn't. But, my dog is ALSO a little boy's pet.
If it's good for one, it's good for both. Period.

[BikeWriter]

116. Thank you.

[Blue Diadem]

118. I've had that too

from both sides. I had a 110 lb lab who would want to chase cats and the dogs that neighbors allow in our yard to poop.

See the dog poop link here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2776143




But by the same token, when I had the feral/rescue cat that went outside occasionally, he couldn't even wander our yard (in his old age) at times, due to the loose neighbor dogs that would chase him in our own yard. They'd even sneak up on him when he was asleep under the lilac bush and I'd have to holler from my kitchen to scare the dogs.

Edited to add last sentence.

[SoCalDem]

115. If you really love your cat, you will keep it indoors

just as you would not let a toddler run the neighborhood. Cats (and dogs) do have "instincts", but they still lose in a match with a car, a mean child, a larger, meaner animal, and of course they do feel the cold and heat.

When they are "out of your sight", you have no way of knowing whether they walked through antifreeze, or ate poisoned rodents, or killed some beautiful wild birds..

Keep them indoors where they are safe and healthy.

Litter boxes are a pain in the ass, but a bigger pain in the ass (and heart) would be to have to bury a beloved animal, or "wonder what happened to them".. They RARELY "run away".. When they do not come home to you, it's because they CAN'T.:cry:

[BikeWriter]

117. Thank you very much for your post.

[Clark2008]

119. I know - I lost a dog this way.

He got out, feebled and old and had a seizure.

I...well... I just can't write the rest of this.

Keep 'em home.

[Quixote1818]

122. Maybe we should go catch all wild animals and keep them in our

800 SF apartment until they die of Insanity!

[SoCalDem]

123. That's not what I said..

If you have 800 sq ft, perhaps pets are not a great idea to start with, but then you and one kitty could co-exist quite nicely..

In all things, moderation :hi:

[Quixote1818]

125. I am just giving you a hard time. I really could care less.

:hi:

[Quixote1818]

120. Keeping a Cat in doors is TORTURE for the animal

Better to be able to run wild and free and die early than live in an apartment staring at birds outside the window for ten years. I don't have any pets but every time I see a cat that is never let outside I can tell the thing is tortured by not being able to go outside not to mention they ALWAYS bolt toward the door when it opens only to be disappointed when the door is shut in their face. I don't care too much for Zoo's either. I have watched Cougars pace back and fourth by the window slowly going INSANE!!!!!!! Fucking let the animals out of their Jail! How would you like to be stuck in your apartment for ten years when you could be out chasing birds, exploring, climbing trees and rolling in the grass????? Anyone who thinks they are doing their pet a favor by keeping them in doors is lying to themselves.

[Blue Diadem]

124. I've had cats that never wanted to venture out the door to the porch

they would totally freak and scream and claw. Depends on the cat as to whether they like the outdoors.

[WillowTree]

139. Uh huh.

And yet, the Pet Nazis who run a shelter I've adopted from a few times won't allow you to adopt a cat if you tell them that you'll allow it to be outside for any reason, even if leashed. They claim there are GERMS out there that could harm them. I kid you not!

[LisaL]

164. Outdoor cats face numerous dangers.

For a person like you, who never had pets, to come up with this is ridiculous. My indoor cats are safe and are not being tortured. I can't possibly let them outside to be run over by cars, being abused by teenagers, and shot by cat hating idiots.
:spank:

[Quixote1818]

177. Keeping a cat in doors is like:

cutting off all your limbs, going def and blind and having someone put bamboo shoots under your fingernails and leaving you lying in a bed staring into darkness in severe depression. But hey, at least you wont get run over by a car or abused by a teenager so life is good.


Personally, I really don't care I am just giving some of you a hard time. However if I had a cat I would let it go outside and I would feed it milk and table scraps every day until it was a big lazy FAT CAT! I like lazy fat cats.

[Quixote1818]

121. WOW!!!! TWILIGHT ZONE!! HOW DID I GET IN THE LOUNGE?

I sware I thought I was in General Discussion!!!:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

[BikeWriter]

126. It's a General Discussion about roaming cats. :-)

[leesa]

127. I think this issue is nonsense. Why are you so uptight about this harmless

thing? Why not build a glass shield around your property.

[Padraig18]

130. If it's a 'poop' issue, consider this:

Deer poop in your yard, rabbits poop in your yard, squirrels poop in your yard, birds poop in your yard, all manner of other animals poop in your yard, so why is it such a huge deal when a CAT poops in your yard?

:wtf:

[ProfessorGAC]

129. Yes

Sorry, i can't link it since it isn't active anymore, but the PetPlace website had a long article recently on the ADVANTAGES to having a cat be a strictly indoor pet. (IIRC, it was based upon a British vettinary group study.)

Given that professional advice, and our personal experience, i think yes, cats should be restricted to the owner's property. No exceptions.

Yes, to your final question, btw.
The Professor

[RebelOne]

131. I wish my neighbors would keep their cats in the house.

I live in a mobile home surrounded by trees. The cats climb the trees and jump onto my roof and chase the squirrels. For such small animals, they sound like a herd of wild horses up there. Drives me crazy.

[ernstbass]

133. It isn't fair

to expect dog owners to restrict their dogs to their yards and not have cat owners do the same. Furthermore, I question the safety of domestic cats running loose. I had 3 dogs with a 5 foot fence and electric wire around the bottom to keep them in. The neighbor's cat would jump the fence to stalk the birds at the feeder and one day my dogs killed the cat. I felt terrible but the cat shouldn't have been in my yard to start with

[WillowTree]

141. There's also the danger to dogs...

....that are properly restricted but manage to break loose to chase a cat that they see running free and get hit by cars? It happens all the time.

The thing is, without leashing or otherwise restricting a cat's movements, it's almost impossible to keep a cat in a yard. They're just too adept at getting over, under, around, and through those things which would attempt to keep them in. And they really shouldn't be tied out unless there's someone with them at all times because that makes them completely at the mercy of other animals that could get into the yard and want to fight, leaving the cat no way to get away (not to mention the danger of strangulation). That's why I said that if I'm working outside, I'll sometimes stake one or both of the cats out while I'm there, but if I come indoors even long enough to get a glass of tea or use the washroom, the cat comes with me. I will not leave an animal unprotected.

[slackmaster]

135. If such a law was adopted here I would certainly comply with it

But as far as I'm concerned it ain't broken.

A couple of days ago I saw my indoor/outdoor cat playing with a neighbor's cat and an apparent stray we call "the black dude". They were sneaking around in my vegetable garden. No rats or mice or gophers are going to be eating my onions or fava beans.

[Mairead]

136. It's settled common law that cats are not restrictable

They perform a vital public-health service for humans and have been doing it for at least 9000 years. Prowling is part of how they perform that service, and the law has for over 1000 years recognised their rights to prowl freely.

Which isn't to say that they're not much safer if they can be coaxed to enjoy life at home. We should do our best, if we want the cats whom we love to enjoy long lives, to entice them to stop at home. But that only works with some cats, and we have to acknowledge that, and allow the others to prowl if they feel the need. And be prepared to lose them prematurely. It's not gratuitous in their part--it's part of their personality and nature! Some cats will compromise, if treated lovingly from kittens: if they can go out through the day, they'll willingly come in at night when the dangers are greatest.

[ProfessorGAC]

140. Per The Study On Petplace dotcom

They aren't safer in the day time. The disease potential is exactly the same day and night, and the number of cats killed in accidents is only barely statistically lower.

I understand your point about the common law. But, 1000 years ago we thought there was a public health advantage in letting blood. That hardly seems like a high value public health idea today.

Rodents do not come into homes where there are cats. They have a sense of smell too! They know who their natural predators are. The same public health service is provided if they're in the house, as a result.

Our cats are 100% indoor, and that's the way it will always be. They're healthy, happy, and safe. Not just good for them, but good for me, good for my wife and good for my neighbors.

The common law thing just doesn't work for me as an argument. Lots of things in the common law have changed, just like in medicine and science when it made sense to change them. This is one thing i think makes sense to change.
The Professor

[Mairead]

150. Yes, I know that the day has dangers, too

While my other cats were alive I chose my residences with their safety in mind. Two of them were adamant about going out during the day--it was not a negotiable issue, and they let me know it in unmistakable ways. But they were all fine with spending their nights indoors, piled up around me (particularly in winter :) ).

The first five died of 'natural' (age-related) causes at ages ranging from 16 to 19; my last one, who lives indoors fulltime now, will (I hope) turn 23 in May.

They're wonderful people, cats, aren't they? :)

[Vinca]

154. What a sweet post.

People who don't really know cats are missing out. I currently have two, both former strays, who now live like lottery winners. One stays in by choice and the other goes out during the day, but hangs around our acreage. Dogs are okay, too, but cats are really special.

[Johonny]

144. Hmm

"From an environmental standpoint, cats, though they can be cute and cuddly, are terribly destructive. That "icky" snake a person might kill in his yard actually has a much greater right to be there than a cat, which is invasive and non-native."


I guess I should stay indoors too. Because I'm both invasive and non-native.


Given the massive destruction to native carnivores in this country I wonder what actual damage is being done. Are song bird populations decreasing because of cats or are they decreasing because they were at an unusually high level because man wiped out all their native predators. Sure cat populations are artificially high due to the influence of man, but there are several reasons to think rodents and many other small mammal populations are also greatly influence by man.

[Cuban_Liberal]

151. Adlai Stevenson's 'Cat Bill' veto message:

Famous Cat Bill Veto STATE OF ILLINOIS EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT SPRINGFIELD, April 23, 1949.

To the Honorable, the Members of the Senate of the Sixth-sixth General Assembly:

I herewith return, without my approval, Senate Bill No. 93, entitled, "An Act to Provide Protection to Insectivorous Birds by Restraining Cats." This is the so-called "Cat Bill." I veto and withhold my approval from this Bill for the following reasons:

It would impose fines on owners or keepers who permitted their cats to run at large off their premises. It would permit any person to capture or call upon the police to pick up and imprison, cats at large. It would permit the use of traps. The bill would have statewide application— on farms, in villages, and in metropolitan centers.

This legislation has been introduced in the past several sessions of the Legislature, and it has, over the years, been the source of much comment— not all of which has been in a serious vein. It may be that the General Assembly has now seen fit to refer it to one who can view it with a fresh outlook. Whatever the reasons for passage at this session, I cannot believe there is a widespread public demand for this law or that it could, as a practical matter, be enforced.

Furthermore, I cannot agree that it should be the declared public policy of Illinois that a cat visiting a neighbor's yard or crossing the highway is a public nuisance. It is in the nature of cats to do a certain amount of unescorted roaming. Many live with their owners in apartments or other restricted premises, and I doubt if we want to make their every brief foray an opportunity for a small game hunt by zealous citizens— with traps or otherwise. I am afraid this Bill could only create discord, recrimination and enmity. Also consider the owner's dilemma: To escort a cat abroad on a leash is against the nature of the cat, and to permit it to venture forth for exercise unattended into a night of new dangers is against the nature of the owner. Moreover, cats perform useful service, particularly in rural areas, in combating rodents— work they necessarily perform alone and without regard for property lines.

We are all interested in protecting certain varieties of birds. That cats destroy some birds, I well know, but I believe this legislation would further but little the worthy cause to with its proponents give such unselfish effort. The problem of cat versus bird is as old as time. If we attempt to resolve it by legislation why knows but what we may be called upon to take sides as well in the age old problems of dog versus cat, bird versus bird, or even bird versus worm. In my opinion, the State of Illinois and its local governing bodies already have enough to do without trying to control feline delinquency.

For these reasons, and not because I love birds the less or cats the more, I veto and withhold my approval from Senate Bill No. 93.

Respectfully, ADLAI E. STEVENSON, Governor

Veto Messages of Adlai E. Stevenson, Governor of Illinois, on Senate and House Bills Passed by the 66th General Assembly of Illinois. Springfield: State of Illinois, 1949.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Adlai_Stevenson

[ozone_man]

167. This is great.

What a sensible person he was.

Moreover, cats perform useful service, particularly in rural areas, in combating rodents— work they necessarily perform alone and without regard for property lines.

[BikeWriter]

152. I'm tired of the cat's piss and shit, and their killing! Any I catch...

...will go to the SPCA. Here's hoping they have stringent fines.

[Mairead]

153. If you do, and the cat is killed despite having had a home

then I hope the folk who supported and loved the cat discover what happened and sue your ARSE off!

The law is that cats are allowed to prowl because it is in their nature and they perform a public-health service that is vital to humans. That has been completely settled common law for at least 1000 years.

[BikeWriter]

155. I owe no legal or moral obligation to a destructive animal someone...

...is allowing to destroy my property! Health service? Is that what you call the stench and filth all over my garage and yard? If they loved their cats they'd keep them off my property. It is my nature to protect what I own.

[retnavyliberal]

159. where is this law?????? n/t

[BikeWriter]

160. They're blowing smoke. Stray cats have little protection anywhere...

...and damned little in Texas where I am. I'm gd tired of their predation and crapping in my yard, and they're in a whole lot of trouble. ;-(

[Greylyn58]

156. Something that should be considered

to the owner that allows their cat (or dog for that matter) to roam free. What you fail to realize is that your cat could come into contact with another animal that is rabid, or eat rat poison or anti-freeze (which animals find very sweet) and you will never know until it's too late.

With dogs there is an antidote that if administered in time is very effective, but with cats there is only a small window with-which something can be done. After that they will suffer a terrible death.

Also free roaming cats are prone to getting into some vicious fights with other cats. Something that an inside cat doesn't have to face.

I love cats and have been owned by three. Any cat I have in the future will be an inside cat for their health and well-being.

[ernstbass]

180. One teaspoon of antifreeze is lethal to a cat

[nonconformist]

157. Are we talking someone's pet or feral/stray cats?

Because there is a world of difference.

I'm a cat owner and lover, and I strongly believe that domesticated cats be kept indoors out of harms way or supervised when spending some time outside. For what it's worth, I feel this way for the CAT'S SAFETY. Cats and dogs are like apples and oranges and frankly you just can't compare them. Ever try leashing a cat? Ever have a cat run up to you on the street and knock you down/chase you/bite you? Ever see a dog fend for itself successfully?

However, feral cats and life-long strays are conditioned to survive in their environments somewhat. They know how to forage for food and they haven't been declawed (which I believe is barbaric in and of itself, but that's another argument). I consider them "wildlife", much like raccoons.

But more importantly, wild cats DO serve a purpose. We live in a wooded area and there are about 4 feral cats that live on the hill behind my house. I'm glad they're there because they control the snake and field mouse population. They're built-in rodent and pest control for me.

[BikeWriter]

161. They also "control" the native song birds. Feral cats are alien pests here

[Mr.Green93]

162. Yes!

Yes!Yes!Yes!

[Malingerer]

163. well....

Cats make great reactive targets ;).

I see no problem with shooting feral cats if it protects natural wild game like songbirds, rabbits, quail, etc. I live in a rural area so a free roaming cat is quite likely feral.

[lonestarnot]

165. A cat is a cat and ya can't keep it on a leash, or put it on a property

and tell it to stay.

[WillowTree]

181. Funny, but I've been doing exactly that for going on 30 years.

And my cats and I are just fine, thanks.

[SpaceBuddy008]

166. my cat is my buddy, and chooses where I live, nice yard+++

FOAM TUBE MOVEMENT BUBBLE PATTERN SHADOW SHINY A I R

[chaska]

168. To outlaw roaming cats is to outlaw cats. It ain't gonna happen...

Deal with it.

My property, my property, my property, market, market, market. Fascist, fascist, fascist.

You want your way, go start your own planet. Meanwhile go hang with the freepers, this is how they think. You have to share the world with the rest of us.

[BikeWriter]

169. Calling us names will not change we have rights, too.

We do not have to accept sharing our property with cats, thank you.

[retnavyliberal]

170. Wow what an enlightened environmental stance.

I thought liberals where the environmental ones. Guess it is us "freepers"

[Carolab]

173. Cats can be just as big a nuisance as dogs.

I've had to deal with my condo neighbors letting theirs roam freely. The cat sets off motion lights, meows and begs at my door until I let it in (when they are away) and poops in my garden.

[ozone_man]

174. They fertilize for free?

You're lucky, I usually have to go out and buy cow manure for the garden.

Also, think of all the rodents that they catch for free! What a public service.

* Pope Gregory IX denounced black cats as Satanic in
his 1233 Papal Bull 'Vox in Rama' and this launched the
extermination of many cats, and subsequently thousands
of cats were burned alive in the cause of searching out
the devil. Tales of these witches' cats turning into mice,
dogs, bats and all sorts of creatures flourished during
the Middle Ages.

(which incidentally lead to a plague of rats, which decimated
the food supplies, carried disease, and played a role in
The Great Plagues)

I think it is often jealous dog owners that just don't like all this cat freedom. Say it ain't so. Cats are so much more civilized. They cover up, when they're done. OK, so I like dogs too, but I love cats.

[Carolab]

175. I like cats and dogs both. But both should be leashed. n/t

[BikeWriter]

176. We have rat poison now, thank you, and birds on the endangered list.

:-(

[maxsolomon]

182. if my cat is incompetent at catching birds is that ok then?

he hasn't caught a bird in 2 years, and the bird population in our backyard/neighborhood has exploded as our garden has taken shape. they all seem to know about him & the other cats roaming the street. just like he knows to stay the fuck out of the road when cars come by.

keeping a cat inside after he's been outside for years is a practical impossibility. they smart, fast, persistent, and annoying. i might as well put him down.

and "rat poison" is a retarded solution to rodent control.

[BikeWriter]

183. Rat poison is retarded? It works pretty good. It may not be too healthy..

...for any free ranging cat who eats a rat full of it, but their owner must not be concerned about that.