After listening to the sad tales of abuse, torture and rape of women

[KlatooBNikto]

brought in from various Asian countries into the richer Arab states, I have come to believe that the cruelty and inhumanity we are aginst when U.S. is involved also occurs when the perps happen to be Arabs/Muslims.According to the ladies who have come to our house for the past few days when my wife was taken ill with the flu to do the cleaning chores,the Asian women are treated like dirt in Arab countries with rape, physical and mental abuse, work for 15 hours per day or more and when someone rebels outright murder has been commonplace.This has been going on for over thirty years in Arab countries without any voice being raised against the practice.

My question is: why is it any different from the practices we are familiar with at Abu Ghraib? Who is speaking for these poor Asian women? Why are the Arab countries or their so called leaders called on the mat by the UN?

I used to think the GWB was a great offender on all matters with regard to human rights.These Arab countries make GW look like a
novice.And their crimes are worse because they prey on the poorest and the weakest people on earth.

[Radical Activist]

1. Abu Ghraib is a bigger issue in the US

because we are directly responsible for what happened there. The fact that some people have done things worse than the US doesn't suddenly absolve us from our crimes or make us more righteous.

If those practices against Asian women continue while we are running Iraq, then we bare the blame for maintaining that system.

[Colorado Blue]

2. You raise a good point. We're in a bind because we want

to be tolerant of oil-producing nations for obvious reasons but in cases where the mistreatment of women overlaps with religious belief it gets even stickier. This is especially true for liberals who want to be tolerant of other people's beliefs.

It isn't just poor Asian women who are mistreated. In certain regions women can't leave the house without male permission, even if the male is a child. Of course you've seen the full-body coverings. It goes on from there - and some of the more extreme practices, such as relieving women of their clitoris (or worse), are actually spreading even into Europe and Indonesia.

At what point is "tradition" a simile for "abuse"? And at what point is it considered polite to speak up?

Thanks for asking the question.

[atreides1]

3. But

When did you hear of GWB calling on his Saudi allies, or other rich Arab states to answer for these crimes.

Who is the worst, the criminal who commits the crime, or the friend of the criminal who says nothing and allows the crime to continue.

Bush has no regard for human rights, look at his allies in the war on terror. Pakistan is a dictatorship, Afghanistan keeps traveling down the road to rule by warlords, Uzbekistan has a leader who boils alive, any who dissent.

So maybe with these little truths, you might want to rethink what you just said about Arab countries making Bush look like a novice?

One other thing you might want to consider, take a look at Bush's budget and check out where all the major cuts are coming from. Most attack the poor and those who are most in need.

Do you still think Bush is a novice?

[KlatooBNikto]

8. Ibelieve that the crimes of the Arab societies that tolerate the wanton

cruelty against these defenseless women are greater than GWB's because they have been committed for no reason other than these victims are poor, and capable of being preyed upon by their rich matsers. Bush at least has a cover story that our country was attacked by terrorists.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. Abu Ghraib was official, these instances are personal.

There is the qualitative difference.

At the same time, these are the people, our allies in Kuwait and Saudi, who are going to spread democracy through the ME? Fat chance.

[KlatooBNikto]

7. These are societal more than individual. The Arab societies condone

these cruel and barbaric practices.

[Ms. Clio]

5. How many threads do you need to start on this subject?

Not getting the answers you want to hear?

[KlatooBNikto]

6. As many as it takes for people to listen and do something against this

barbarism.

[Ms. Clio]

9. Just what do you think "we" should do?

Bomb Saudi Arabia? Spread more "democracy" at the point of a gun?

[KlatooBNikto]

10. Publicize these acts more on our media and newspapers. Ask

Congress to implement sanctions against gross violators. Ask the UN to create a special commission to investigate these abuses. Have the victims give testimony to the UN Human Rights Commission. I can think of many more, but this will do for a start. We at DU should be at the forefront of this struggle for the Human Rights of the most defenseless, poor and innocent victims at the hands of their rich masters.

It is also a known fact that many Arabs households living in the U.S. engage in similar practices. I want to see our prosecutors and DAs take an active role in deporting any aliens caught in engaging in violations of human rights of other people.

[Ms. Clio]

11. It's a well-known fact that many women and children are slaves in Africa

and are enslaved in sweatshops in the Far East.

I would like to see our prosecutors and DAs take an active role in prosecuting Wal Mart and our other rich masters that abuse these poor and innocent victims, too.

[KlatooBNikto]

18. Yes, I agree. As they say Freedom is indvisible.

[Spinoza]

13. Damn right!

Where is the outcry? From anyone, left or right? These poor women are being treated worse than (rabid) dogs. (I also know several aisian and middle eastern women. The horror stories are almost beyond belief.)

[forgethell]

16. I'm with you.

You keep posting them. What else can I do to help?

[KlatooBNikto]

19. I have written to our senators and Congressmen. I am planning to write to

several op-ed columnists at the NYT, Chicago Tribune and other major newspapers to put some heat on these Arab countries that keep violating the human rights of these poor women.

[forgethell]

22. As I said below,

I have written, and will continue to write my representatives.

However, I'd like to know what we suggest that they do. Not go to their parties, stop buying their oil, boycott the county, send in the Marines? How far are we prepared to go?

[forgethell]

12. What do you suggest

we do about it??

[Colorado Blue]

14. Here's a suggestion - for Democrats, liberals and pro-

gressives as a group: we need to develop a coherent policy for dealing with international issues.

We are very strong on DOMESTIC issues but generally speaking, restrict our commentary regarding the rest of the world to wringing our hands and being mad at our crazy-ass Republican presidents.

Sorry if I offend anyone by saying that!

But I really do think we need to form a policy that will take into account the religious, social and economic forces that are shaping our planet and figure out how to address them. Whether we like it or not the US is socially, politically and economically enmeshed in the rest of the planet and we've allowed the business community - represented primarily by the Republican Party - to hijack the discourse on these issues.

A case in point: the recent demonstrations in Lebanon, organized by Hezbollah - a violent Shi'a offspring, not at all representative of the people of Lebanon OR Syria - have sparked a lot of sarcastic anti-Bush comments on DU so far and little else. Indeed, the size of the demonstrations I think actually GRATIFIES a lot of DU'ers regardless of the fact that Hezbollah hardly represents a direction in which advocates of human rights, secular democracy and peace in the M.E. should feel comfortable going.

Where DO we, as progressives, actually stand? Do we want progress in the world or do we want to stay home and be mad at Bush?

[forgethell]

15. Where DO we, as progressives, actually stand?"

That's what I want to know. That's what I asked. So, then, you are proposing that we talk about it? And form a policy? Then what?

I mean I seriously want to know. I think President Bush has made some terrible mistakes. But the trouble is, as you, I see no credible progressive alternative. When, under what circumstance, are we, as progressives, willing to use force? I think that is the first question that hasto be answered, and in a consistent manner, before we can even begin to formulate a foreign policy.

I think this was Bush's greatest strength in the last election. He had a plan, we didn't. Sometimes it just chokes me up, I get so frustrated.

[Colorado Blue]

17. Me too. I think that Soros and others are trying to put

together some Democratic/Progressive think tanks, to come up with coherent plans and ideas concerning international affairs and the global economy.

It couldn't hurt for DU'ers to set aside a little time, each day, and perhaps focus on one area of the world and/or issue, which would appeal to one personally, and acquire a working education on the topic. Then, one could draw up a plan, an outline of suggestions. Obviously most of us aren't experts but we are clearly interested and involved. I don't think we can wait around for university types like Churchill, who are trying to make a point and are therefore going to take a hard, possibly divisive line, to make Democratic foreign policy. We clearly can't depend upon Congress, which is busy with domestic issues anyway. Ideas don't have to be accompanied by Ph.D.'s to be good.

Maybe if party leaders saw that grassroots Democrats are truly interested in global economic and social issues, they would respond. I think it's vital, otherwise we're doomed to decades more of the same: US foreign relations are going to be controlled by Big Business. And Big Business HAS no morals, it isn't even American anymore - it's multinational, and has nobody's best interests in mind except their bottom line.

[KlatooBNikto]

20. I want each one of us at DU top write to our senators and Reps to produce

a groundswell of our disgust at the treatment of these innocent women. We need to get our churches, temples and mosques to speak out against these barbaric practices. If our voices become large enough they will have no choice but to respond. We can even organize open protests at the Saudi and Kuwaiti embassies and consulates throughout our country.If the negative publicity doesn't shame them, I don't know what will.We can also educate our college students through teach-ins about these practices.

[forgethell]

21. So, we

are going to shame them into being better people?? Has it worked on the Republicans? Why would it work on the Saudis. They are not ashamed or bothered by our opinions, IMO.

Still, it might be worth a try. I have already written to my Congressman & Senators & President Bush & Vice-President Cheney many times about the plight of women in Muslim countries, the traffic in humans for sex, the slavery in Sudan, and similar items of concern to me. As well as other. I e-mail at least one of them every day, and snail mail once or twice a month.

You organize the demonstrations, and I'll make every attempt to be there.

[oldcoot]

23. There is only one solution

We need to end our dependence upon oil. It would greatly help if we did not end up contributing to the wealth of these individuals by purchasing their oil.

We also should stop arming any nation which treats women horribly. If the leaders of any nation want to live in the thirteenth century, let them live with thirteenth-century weapons.