My response from now on to "abortion is murder."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

WAR IS MURDER You get the war ended and then we'll talk.

eom

[Catherine Vincent]

1. That's a good comeback.

:thumbsup:

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

2. War is murder? Does that include World War II, the Civil War,

Afghanistan, etc. War in self-defense isn't murder. n/t

[LynnTheDem]

6. WWII was not "self defense" for America. The American civil war wasn't

"self defense" either.

AFGHANISTAN????!! "Self defense"???



War means you failed.

[Vladimir]

10. WWII sort of was though

in that America didn't enter it until it was attacked... after Perl Harbour, Germany declared war on America, and things sort of went from there.

The main difference with Afganistan IMO is that after Perl Harbour, America was facing further Japanese attacks on its colonies in the Pacific, and a Europe crying out for help with the Nazi threat. After 9/11, America was facing a world ready to work with it to combat terrorism, and chose to exacerbate the situation by invading Afganistan and then Iraq. I agree with you, war means that you've failed, but that doesn't always make it avoidable.

[LynnTheDem]

12. nt!

[leftynyc]

16. We joined WWII after Pearl Harbor was attacked

How is that not self defense? The next day Germany declared war on us. What should we have done? And frankly, I would have had no problem with us going over and kicking the shit out of the Nazi's even if they hadn't declared war on us first.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

17. OK, let me get this straight.

We didn't fight against the Nazis (and Italy and Japan) in World War II. So why'd we fight? For oil? For land? Was the whole Nazi menace just overstated, then? C'mon, you're being ridiculous.

As far the Civil War, I don't know of anything else could have ended slavery and saved the Union.

With Afghanistan, the terrorists who attacked us were being harbored by the Taliban. Saddam may not have been an immediate threat, but Osama sure was.

[Bridget Burke]

18. So--where's Osama? Since that was the purpose ...

of invading Afghanistan. (Aside from the pipeline.)

The major charges at Nuremberg involved planning & starting Aggressive War. These were the counts against the top Nazis--not the "only following orders" crowd.

Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq attacked us. The Taliban offered to give up Osama if we could prove he "masterminded" 9/11; no proof was offered.

I agree that the Civil War was, unfortunately, necessary. However, the Rebs started it by firing on Fort Sumter.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Neither is abortion in self defense.

You can frame a justifiable war. I can frame a justifiable abortion.

[LynnTheDem]

11. Justifiable abortion;

Mother will die otherwise from complications that were not possible to know about before becoming pregnant.

With wars, there are usually ways they can be avoided. War may be preferable to a situation -such as the US civil war being thought preferable to the nation dividing- but then that's more a war of choice, not self-defense, because there was a choice.

Iraq from Iraq's side would be almost a justified self-defense, as they tried to avoid being invaded but for one demand; bush gave Hussein & his family 48 hours to "git outta town". Hussein refused.

But regime change is very clearly stated as illegal by US law, the USC, the UN Charter, & international law. Being an illegal demand, Hussein was under no obligation to obey it, and even if he had done so, the US still planned on occupying Iraq and people would be killed.

Also, America took active steps to avoid the avoidance of war; set impossible-to-meet demands, kicked out the UN weapons inspectors before they were finished their inspecting; violated the USC, US law, UN Charter (international law), lied, etc.

The only truly "self-defense" war, imo, would be one nation totally out of the blue attacking another. No warning, no threats, just WHAM and the attacking nation refusing to accept any kind of cease-fire or surrender. Then the attacked nation's choice is let the attacker slaughter you or fight back.

Fighting back in that scenario would be pure self-defense.

Just IMO, YMMV.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Justifiable abortion

Mother will be out on the street, give birth in a shoddy county hospital, or be in debt the rest of her natural life thanks to the bankruptcy bill were she to give birth.

[LynnTheDem]

15. Agreed.

And detahs in childbirth will increase.

[noiretextatique]

9. killing innocent people is murder

even if the murder is called "war."

[noiretextatique]

3. where is the concern for iraqi fetuses?

:shrug: faux patriotism trumps the supposed reverance for life, i suppose.

[Wapsie B]

5. Those are the feti of those brown Muslim heathens.

They don't count. /sarcasm

[caledesi]

4. If abortion is murder because of the right-to-life issue, then

ask if they use artificial birth control? Think of how many "babies" don't have a chance to live.

[jdj]

8. Or you could just say "so is murder".

and ask how is it right to drop napalm on children with a fully formed CNS but not okay to abort children without one.

[Swamp Rat]

13. Mine is: "Fuck you!"

Bush voters are accomplices to genocide... I am not nice to them anymore. :mad:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. You're in good company.

"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." - Albert Einstein