Terri- Starving to death

[MARALE]

I am sorry, but I have to give my 2 cents on this subject, although I know it has been over hashed.

My mother died in 2003, Sept. 11th in fact. She died because she had MS. She essentially starved to death because in the process of dying, the body stopped all swallowing activity. My mother's sisters are both nurses and said that she could be put on a feeding tube and kept alive, but that complications come from that too and she would eventually die a much worse death of infection from bed sores or something else more painful. Have you ever seen the bedsores on a person that is in a wheelchair or bed? They are very painful and horrible. When someone is as far gone as Terri, she will not even really feel the hunger pains, because her body is accustomed to the feeding tube now.

My grandmother in law died this past year officially of cancer, but she too essentially died of starvation because she could not eat. Dying of starvation is actually one of the ways the body shuts down and is a big part of dying.

If you don't think that starvation is a big part of why many people die, than I think you are naive.

There, my rant is done, have at me!

[Kire]

1. who's Terri?

:shrug:

[ET Awful]

4. Terri Schiavo

in persistent vegetative state for over a decade, her parents want to keep her on a feeding tube, her husband does not.

A Google search can give you all the nitty gritty details and legal wranglings, etc.

[Kire]

121. I thought you meant Teri Hatcher.

I know the Terri Schiavo story, but it still didn't click that's what the subject was when I read the post.

thanks for the update

[Dookus]

2. Nothing to rant at

people think Terri will suffer like you or I would if we had no food or water. That's simply not true.

Starvation/dehydration occurs in many, many deaths from disease. It is not unnatural, and it's not cruel.

Now, that being said, I still believe there should be a way for Terri to be euthanized quickly - not for her sake, but for her family's. We should treat people with at least as much dignity as we treat our dogs.

[seabeyond]

3. i didnt know, thanks for sharing

gosh, you would think, i would think, i would like, for a little compassion and maybe be helped along the way with a simple shot. but good to know that the body doesnt feel it like i may imagine it

[spanone]

5. When my mom died from 'cancer' she did the same thing.

She DECIDED to die. She stopped eating altogether. She didn't suffer.

[Warpy]

6. My mother died of COPD and diabetic kidney disease

but she too essentially died of starvation. The only thing we could get into her for nearly 3 years was chocolate Slim Fast. It was simply too much trouble for a woman who had to fight for every breath to try to chew and swallow.

I wanted my mother to live forever, but not like that. She died with hospice care at home and I made sure she was comfortable.

Undoubtedly Ms. Schiavo will have hospice care. She'll die more from dehydration than starvation, but she'll be sedated just on the off chance she's still capable of feeling distress.

I've worked throughout adult medicine, and I can tell you that yes, most elderly people and people with severe chronic illness like cancer actually die from starvation. At some point, they just lose any interest in food. Cruelty is forcing it on them. Cruelty is forcing them to continue to exist in a useless body.

[maveric]

7. One of my patient's family just had his feeding and water shut off.

He's an 83 yr old man with tongue cancer that has spread to his brain and lymph nodes. I have to administer morphine to him until he dies.

Sometimes I hate this job, but in the long run its in his best interest.

[Lisabtrucking]

8. I totally agree with you, let her die already. jeez they must enjoy seeing

her in this condition. If my family did this to me,they wouldn't want me to come out of it because I would be a tyrant bitch. Too live so many years like a blob on a mat, is dehumanizing, awful, and disturbing. If her parents cared anything about her they would let her die, but they only care about themselves and their loss. sad, sad story.

[DearAbby]

9. It is very sad for everyone concern...the RW Fundies have made this a

nightmare, this should have been resolved years ago. RIP Terri.

[Warpy]

10. My mother said if I did it to her, she'd die out of spite

and come back and haunt me.

[bluestocking_lib]

117. yes i agree

I think the family keeping her alive is based off an unwillingness to let go. It is a tragic situation, and I am sure her family has been through a lot of pain, but holding onto a hope that simply will not happen - her recovering - is cruel.

[demnan]

144. Well I wouldn't judge the parents so harshly

They love their child I'm sure. I've also seen the footage of her and she does respond and move her head. She's not a total vegetable and the husband did take money which would have gone for reabilitation and spent it elsewhere, so he's no angel.

I don't know how I feel on this one, but I really can't judge unless I know more. And the footage did show a human being, perhaps a brain damaged one, but still a living conscious being.

[Dookus]

145. demnan....

I would suggest that the information you have is one-sided.

She does NOT respond to stimulation. The parents recorded hours of tape, and very highly edited it to make it appear she was responding.

She is not, of course, paralyzed. She DOES move. She DOES move her head. If you record her for hours while doing things around her, you will find some coincidental reflexive movement that corresponds with the supposed stimulation. Then you delete all the other "misses" and show the one "hit" - which was entirely coinciental - and it appears she's responding to something. You can't watch one section of highly-edited tape and use that over the opinions of many doctors who have determined that she, is indeed, in a persistent vegetative state.

As for the charge against her husband, that is a common cheap assault perpetrated by the right-wing fundies against him.

The money in question was spent on lawyers, and it was spent with the full approval of the court. He would not have needed to spend a dime on lawyers if her parents had not kept going to court over this. And again, the court approved his spending of the money on lawyers to counter them. They are well-funded by right-wing anti-choice groups - what was he supposed to do? NOT fight them simply because they had money? That's absurd.

[Bouncy Ball]

156. The parents and others spliced that footage to make it appear

that way. She has no cerebral cortex, thus she is completely and totally incapable of communication. Period.

[chookie]

11. Similar story

My mother died 2 years ago. She had many afflictions and was in horrific suffering every day. Finally, she asked my father to discuss something with her, and she told him she wanted to die.

We went from normal reaction medicine -- rushing the poor old woman to the ER everytime something happened -- to Home Hospice -- and by golly, it was the smartest thing we ever did.

The home care, and spiritual support, we received were simply angelic.

As a result, after years of suffering, my mother died at peace, in her own bed, surrounded by her family and her beloved pussycats. She had a beautiful death, and we all consider ourselves deeply blessed.

She had seriously cut back on eating for many months. At one point near the end she was dehydrated, and we had her on an intravenous drip, but the doctor made the call, finally, that fluid entering her body at this final stage would only make her more uncomfortable, and he advised removing it. We kept her as comfortable as we could, and one day she restfully slipped into a coma and died that night.

Mummy got what she wanted. She never had fear of death, and all of us fortunately were acceptant of her decision.

I pity the Schiavo family -- to have such conflict over this grave matter. Instead of the deep peace we were blessed to have, they have turned Terri's situation into a raucous circus.

I actually know another family in the same situation. The elderly mother of a friend had a stroke; she had long said she did not want to be kept alive. The fundamentalist Christian daughter of my friend found out, and said she was going to bring the wrath of her whole congregation to town and make it a media event. Stupidly, they let her hijack her grandmother's death. They have her all "tubed" out, and her congregation take turns preaching to the dying woman -- who was not religious, and nor is her son, etc. To me, this sounds like the 4th circle of Hell. I get a feeling this is much more about making a big show to the world about what Industrial Strength Christian Worshippers THEY are than ministering to the actual and requested needs of the dying woman. What a nightmare.

[bluestocking_lib]

118. god...

that last part is AWFUL. I don't understand why christians would support keeping someone alive like that. I mean, shouldn't they acquiesce to the will of god and let that suffering person die when their bodies are trying to do just that? sticking someone full of tubes and ventilators is like a scene from a bad sci-fi movie. unnatural, cruel, and just plain sick.

[Tess49]

129. That last part is absolutely hideous.

[Maraya1969]

12. This is my problem with pulling her feeding tube

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/11/earlyshow/main673281.shtml

I first heard that this woman was in a coma for 20 years. I know she could not speak. I don't know whether she could communicate. But after 20 years the woman spoke.

I know the doctors say that Terri will not recover but the pictures I see of her look like she is "still there", even if in a very degenerated condition.

ALSO, what about stem cells? I know ass**** won't let the government fund research but California, private companies and the rest of the world are working on it right now. What if this woman just needs some fresh brain cells to get off her feeding tube?

I know this has been discussed in other threads but I never participated so I figured I have my say now.

[Lisabtrucking]

13. If she needed stem cells they could use her own. it's done all the time

If she had a chance like that they would of done it already. Her problem is her brain is damaged. I've seen the ex rays of brains that have been damaged by strokes and heart attacks. It's obvious that the damage is unrepairable.

[Dookus]

16. sigh

there is a difference between being in a coma and being in a persistent vegetative state. They are simply not comparable.

A coma is a sleep-like state from which you can't wake up. A persistent vegetative state, like Terri is in, is the absence of brain activity, which is only logical considering the bulk of her brain is gone. Literally gone.

Any hope of stem cells growing a new brain is misplaced. Even if it WERE possible, it is many decades away, and if the brain WERE somehow regrown, the resulting woman wouldn't be Terri. Her mind, her thoughts, her memories, are all gone. Even if it were possible to regrow the tissue, Terri wouldn't return.

[gulfcoastliberal]

120. Being in a coma is very different than persistant vegetative state

A person in a coma may still have brain activity in the cortex and hippocampus. A vegitative state means there is no recordable brain activity outside of the brainstem, which is responsible for breathing and reflex. There is no chance of the cortex and hippocampus ever "coming back" in vegetables like Terri. She has been dead ever since her heart stopped beating for 5 minutes and left her brain without oxygen.

[Bouncy Ball]

157. That woman you are referring to HAS a cerebral cortex

thus there has always been a chance for her recovery.

Terri HAS no cerebral cortex. There is zero, absolutely zero chance of her improving at all.

BIG difference.

[KharmaTrain]

14. Another Story...

Anyone who has seen a parent or close friend die can relate to the angst and frustration watching a once vibrant person become a prisoner in their own bodies...and then vanish from there.

My mother contratcted Parkinsons that manifested into Altzheimers in her last couple years. The first thing to go was her appetite. For months (we didn't know what was causing her problems) we tried to find ways to re-ignite her appetite but things got worse. Within a year she became an invalid living off of a feeding tube and whatever Ensure she could literally stomache.

In the end, I had to make the decission about pulling her feeding tube. She was under hospice care and, while we had hoped an infection, like pneumonia, that could kill silently and quickly would happen, in her case, we saw failing vital signs and knew this was the time to let her go.

For nearly a year I spent a lot of time at an intensive care facility my mother was in. I saw rooms full of elderly...once strong, vibrant people, now barely holding on to their last shreads of health and sanity. To those who work in these situation, I have nothing but the highest respect as their sensitivity helped me greatly during this time.

I wonder what Terry Schiavo's parents expect could happen? Other than that "aura inspiring" miracle, which I can't see them truly believing would happen after all this time. Is holding a suspended soul inside a body that wants to die worth all the agony? Having been one whose signed off on two DNRs and having to assist my parents to a "soft landing", I would hope the same for Mr. Schiavo...a man who must be suffering greatly and very silently.

[Old and In the Way]

15. Someone should ask Terri's parents-

Would you want to be kept "alive" in this state? Somehow, I doubt any rational human would want to endure the 15 year non-existance that is forced upon Terri.

It's a joke that this is somehow a reaffirmation of life. It simply shows how modern medical technology can keep the body alive, long after the mind has departed. What's the point? A living memorial to your deceased daughter? I can imagine how difficult it is for a parent to give up on their child, but after 15 years? Why do they prolong this hell for themselves and their daughter? Seems to have become a singularly selfish act that only benefits them.

[Quixote1818]

43. I told my family that if I ever end up in that state the HAD to pull the

plug!

[Sapphire Blue]

136. Put it in very specific writing.

[SF Bay Area Dem]

17. Reading some of these stories breaks my heart...

When I was young we (the family) had to do this for my grandmother --- remove the IV's and breathing tubes. I remember the anguish that my aunts and uncles felt having to make this decision. It was obvious my grandmother was no longer with us and had slipped into a deep coma. She died peacefully early in the morning after two days of breathing on her own without the tube. I will never forget as we were leaving the hospital just as dawn was breaking how the birds were singing loudly. For whatever reason this brought the family peace and we knew my grandmother was in a better place.

I am a bit torn with Mrs. Schiavo's situation. Looking at her I see what appears to be life. She is breathing on her own and does not appear to be in what we typically think is a vegetative state. I can understand how her parents feel. My opinion is that her husband should honor the parents request to divorce her and allow them to become guardians. I think it is disgusting how the right wing conservatives have politicized this whole thing. Anything to push their agenda... no matter who gets hurt in the process.

[lonestarnot]

18. This is basically a murder I have decided after careful consideration of

the facts.

[Dookus]

20. People are removed from life support systems

every day in this country. Are they all murders?

[lonestarnot]

21. You are overgeneralizing...I said consideration to this case. n/t

[Dookus]

22. and I'm asking you

what makes this a murder, but not the others?

[lonestarnot]

25. I have seen videos of her smiling when her Mom comes into the room.

They are starving her to death or she would continue to live, and they are doing so intentionally and willfully. An act of taking another life in this manner is murder.

[Dookus]

27. Are you aware

that the videos you've seen were highly edited? That many hours of tape were shot where Terri did NOT respond to anything? And they edited the tape to show the few instances where her actions appeared to correspond to some stimulation?

Are you also aware that the videos were taken illegally by her parents?

Are you aware that doctors and courts have reviewed those tapes to a much greater degree than you or I and have come to a very different conclusion?

Are you aware Terri's parents are being funded by right-wing fundamentalist conservatives for political reasons?

[lonestarnot]

29. They are her parents freakin' shit! illegally my ass...don't give a shit

about her doctors and the court and law have blood on their hands..hers and if someone were killin' my kid I would do ANYTHING TO STOP THEM! ANY FUCKING THING!

[Dookus]

30. I see

so your calm, considered opinion is based on pure emotion?

Now, why not respond to the questions I asked? The videotapes were highly edited, and Terri does NOT respond as the tapes would indicate - they are lies. The parents are liars. LIARS.

So, would you like to have a rational discussion? Or just vent?

[lonestarnot]

31. NOPE Not rational when thinking about someone killing my kid! n/t

[Dookus]

33. I hope nobody's talking about killing your kid

I think it's funny you first presented your position as being one that was carefully considered, based on the evidence, but when provided with some information, your position is based on pure emotion. Which is it?

Terri does not respond to stimulation. The videotape is a lie. Do you have something to say about that?

If your child were in a persistent vegetative state, would you overrule his or wishes to fulfill your own needs?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

41. I have a heart, lonestarnot

that's pretty demonstrable.

And your info is not complete. I have seen someone starve to death - in the late stages of AIDS. He stopped eating and drinking. I sat with him and held him hand as he died. I cared for him, delivered his meds, comforted him.

I also think you are unqualified to judge whether she's in a vegetative state. Doctors who have examined her, and courts who have examined the doctors, agree that she is.

[lonestarnot]

59. Ok Dookus, you have a heart...vegetative state is terrible but starvation

on top of it is worse!

[Dookus]

64. Thank you for conceding

the existence of a vital organ.

I agree with you that there ought to be a way to allow Terri to die without her family having to endure her starvation/dehydration. Terri won't suffer, but her loved ones will. We need to give our human companions as much dignity as we would give a dog.

[lonestarnot]

67. I couldn't put my dog to sleep either... sorry but I would certainly

not starve any of them. LOL

[Dookus]

70. I see

well then you're a much crueler person than I.

[lonestarnot]

75. Nope wanted him to be with me until the last second...selfish not cruel.

[Dookus]

78. you could've been with him to the end

if he'd been humanely euthanized, too.

You just prolonged his suffering. Whether out of selfishness or cruelty, the end result is the same.

[mondo joe]

140. So much like Terri's parents who admitted they would deny her wish

to have life support removed even if they KNEW it was what she requested.

[janx]

196. I recently had my good girl Finn (golden retriever) euthenized.

It was the toughest thing I've ever had to do. But she had terminal cancer and was suffering greatly. I loved her so very much.

[janx]

194. Well put, Dookus. n/t

[lonestarnot]

69. P.S. No concession on starvation though...LOL n/t

[Dookus]

71. please....

try to form a coherent thought before hitting Send.

What kind of concession do you want from me?

[lonestarnot]

77. Am coherent, case# and court ...link, don't need a concession and stop

pleading as in pleaseeeeeee

[Dookus]

81. I see

yes, that was very coherent.

I just need to figure in which language.

[lonestarnot]

dup post and dup means duplicate....n/t

[lonestarnot]

97. args = arguments

[Ilsa]

100. You need to rethink your position on starvation.

Ketosis from fat metabolism develops in 3-5 days and is associated with euphoria. Same thing occurs with dehydration. There are endorphins released when the body's system are shut down like this. If she has any feeling at all, she may have euphoria. But since her brain has no function, it isn't likely. If she has any discomfort, she can be given medication to ease pain. But once again, since the MRI's indicate that her gray matter has been squashed into oblivion, it isn't likely she'll experience pain.

This woman is being used like a tool by the likes of Randall Terry and others who have a ulterior political motivation.

[Bouncy Ball]

159. You do realize that she is not feeling starvation?

She is not in any pain. You are taking your conception of "starvation" which is probably "OH MY GOD!! HOW PAINFUL!" and transferring it to her case. It's not the same.

[ElectroPrincess]

115. Starvation is NOT painful in and of itself ...

Why do you think young girls are "starving themselves to death" in the name of anorexia? After the first 2-3 days of no food, the body adjusts. In fact, it's kind of a high when you stand up because one's blood pressure is so low.

No, it's horrid to see healthy young girls starve themselves in order to look like a skeleton with skin, but hey, part of American culture is sicko.

MY POINT: Starvation is NOT a painful way to die, well, except for the loved one's remaining ... watching them fade away.

[bluestocking_lib]

119. hmm

she's not living naturally. how can it be considered murder when her body would naturally shut down without all the tubes and wires - nature has the final hand, right? what divine right do doctors and technology have?

[mondo joe]

139. And why do you think parents trump the right of the individual

to decide his or her own fate?

[Bouncy Ball]

158. You do realize Terri is MARRIED???

She has a husband. HE is her life partner. I would be pissed as hell if my parents tried to stop my husband from making decisions about my medical state.

And by the way, you realize if this had happened to Terri 50 years ago, she would have died a long time ago? She never would have been kept artificially alive, with no chance of recovery, for 20 years.

It's cruel. We treat our pets better than that.

[seabeyond]

28. respectfully in your opinion

and you are so allowed. before such harsh judgement though, i think it is more of an example of committing murder by sticking a needle in a persons arm in death row. we just validate that. you personally cannot validate this action to teri. i believe it is more murder killing those innocent in iraq, we just validate it.

this woman if not on these machines would be dead. those people would remain very much alive

you are so allowed your opinion and i respect that. it is the limiting of your arguement to only your site that might bother others. they too are allowed their opinion, respectfully

[lonestarnot]

32. She is not on a machine...she is being tube fed n/t

[Dookus]

35. Yes, that is a machine

and also a life-support system.

Her cerebral cortex is gone. Terri is gone.

[lonestarnot]

37. Not on machines...n/t

[Dookus]

47. She is on life support

as defined both legally and medically.

[JetCityLiberal]

133. Off topic I know

but how the hell do you get 2000 posts on DU in less than 3 months???

JetCityLiberal

[seabeyond]

135. well

shit, he/she has a good 50 on this thread alone. a person of passion, lol. i am a talker too, was easy for me

[BornaDem]

179. Yes, murder by judicial decree...

This is not even euthanasia because this woman is NOT terminal. If anybody starved an animal to death by not providing food or water for it, that person would be facing a jail sentence in this country.

[Dookus]

180. she would die if not

on life support - a feeding tube.

She is in a persistent vegetative state and is being kept alive artificially.

[BornaDem]

181. I do not believe from what I have read and seen...

that she is in a "persistent vegetative state." She is an individual with serious brain damage, but she is not in a coma unaware of her surroundings. I also do not agree that life support is food and water.

[Dookus]

182. then you have only read one side of the story

the side backed by right-wing fundie nutcase assholes.

She *IS* in a persistent vegetative state, and your opinion doesn't change that. What you have "seen" is highly-edited videos that were rejected by the courts as lies.

Your opinion also is irrelevant to whether a feeding tube is life-support. It is, both legally and medically.

[BornaDem]

183. Since you seem to be so well versed in this case...

on both sides of course, can you tell me if you think Michael Schiavo has a conflict of interest (considering his "common law marriage and children" not to mention the $ he obtained for Terri's care and used instead on lawyer's fees to kill her) in acting as a guardian in Terri's best interests?

[Dookus]

184. I'll be happy to answer

the questions. I've seen them posed quite often, but usually on Freerepublic or other right-leaning sites.

I do not believe he has a conflict of interest, above and beyond that same conflict that would exist for ANY spouse in the same situation. In fact, the recent news that he has turned down two offers (one for $10 million, one for $1 million) to turn Terri's care over to her parents demonstrates he is not doing this for money, but for principle. His wife stated the desire not to be maintain on life support if in a PVS. He is honoring that wish, as I hope MY partner would honor if it were me.

As for the settlement money being spent on laywers' fees, it was done with the full approval of the court. He was forced to spend the money because her parents, with the financial backing of the far-right, kept going to court over this case. They kept losing, too, at every step of the way. Go to court, lose. Go to court, lose. Go to court, lose. But it cost a lot of money for Michael to defend against those suits. Why don't you save a little indignation for her parents? Without them, that money would never have to be spent.

I think it's demonstrable that Michael is acting in Terri's best interests. Her parents have already stated that they would NOT follow Terri's wishes in this case. Even if they found a written document stating her wishes, they said they would still override them.

So I argue that the parents are not acting in Terri's best interests.

[BornaDem]

186. Yes, if her parents had only let Michael kill her a long time ago...

he wouldn't have had to spend all that $ on legal fees. If only they had just accepted his word like Judge Greer did that Terri wanted to be snuffed he could have spent all that $ on something besides her care or legal fees, (a new car? a better house? maybe a bigger pool?) In the event that you aren't aware, check out the posts from disabled people on THIS site. They've been talking about Terri for a long time. No need to go to "Freerepublic or some right-leaning sites" to find boatloads of people that are scared shitless about what will happen to them if the courts let Michael murder Terri (by starvation yet.)

[Dookus]

187. Do you have anything

to say that isn't a regurgitated right-wing talking point?

I gave you a polite detailed answer. Do you have to respond with nonsensical allegations?

No need to answer - I think I know what the answer is.



"Fundamentalism - it's easier than thinking."

[BornaDem]

189. Try reading "Politics and Issues Forums: Disability Issues and...

Activitism" on THIS forum. It's all disabled people talking to one another about people with your attitude. If you have an open mind which I find doubtful, it might give you pause to find out what is being said. I would suggest you start with "Liberalism and Disability Rights: Why don't they get it?" At least if you bother to read any of the threads there, you will know that I am not "regurgitating right-wing talking points" but rather the views of a large part of Democratic Underground's own disabled members, not that you would probably be interested in someone else's point of view, particularly someone much closer to the issue than you are.

[Dookus]

190. I have read the forum

and I simply disagree that Terri should be considered "disabled".

If we apply that same appellation to all people in her state, we would never be able to remove ANY life support systems. All would have to remain in a permanent half-way state until the body finally gave up.

Is it your position that ANY person in a persistent vegetative state should be kept alive at all costs?

And why bring up all the easily discounted right-wing lies about her husband's motives? Would you also like to declare that he caused her condition? It's pure right-wing BS.

[janx]

192. YES, it is.

But it's also an illustration of how the right wingnuts use religion.

[BornaDem]

193. I do not know how Terri came to be in her present condition and unless...

you are Michael Schiavo, you don't either. I am not accusing him of anything, but he was the only person present when whatever happened to her occurred. Unlike many others, I think that Schiavo, Felos and Greer are not interested in killing Terri to cover up evidence, but rather think they are like you - committed to promoting the cause of euthanasia.

I'm pleased that you are at least aware of what most disabled persons on DU think of you and all the others who would do away with them because they have nothing to contribute or it's too costly to keep spending $ on them.

Anyone who has a durable power-of-attorney or living will should have those wishes honored (including starvation and dehydration if so stated.) Terri does not fall into this group. Her husband says she once told him those were her wishes. Her family and others say otherwise. I would think that any judge that was provided no written proof would err on the side of life. Silly me! Of course, I would not expect a judge to approve of funds awarded for care and rehabilitation to allow those funds to be used for legal fees concurred in putting the recipient to death.

[Dookus]

195. What you, or anyone else, thinks of me

is inconsequential.

Do you believe that all people in a PVS should be kept alive at all costs?

[Lars39]

201. It was determined early on that she suffered cardiac

arrest due to electrolyte imbalance. She was bulimic.

[Toucano]

19. Thank you for sharing your experience.

Exerience is a lot more valuable.

[ultraist]

23. While I agree..

that stopping eatting can be a natural part of the dying process as it was with my father when he had terminal cancer, I also know someone who was on a feeding tube for ten years and would have died had they removed it. This person has some physical damage but is perfectly normal otherwise. They have been off the feeding tube for about a year and they are doing ok.

Sometimes, people have conditions that require feeding tubes to keep them alive but otherwise, have quality of life.

Another loved one that I cared for and was with when they died, drank a few sips of water minutes before she died. So it varies.

The court has accepted the opinions of the doctors and denied the parents legal guardianship. Let's hope it's in the best interest of Terri.

[Dookus]

24. yes

people need to make the distinction. Terri is not being removed from the feeding tube simply because she is ON a feeding tube. She is in a persistent vegetative state, AND on a feeding tube. Both factors are important.

[lonestarnot]

39. NOT; she has demonstrated emotion as you allege that I have done. n/t

[Lars39]

42. She has no cerebral cortex; it has been replaced

with spinal fluid. What made her Terri no longer exists.

[lonestarnot]

49. What part of the brain is left? Do you have this info? You seem to be

up-to-date re her cerebral cortex, and are inferring that only her autonomic centers are left...Don't believe this... would have to see a medical record...which I would decline w/o permission of legal guardian.

[Lars39]

52. Amazing.

Read court documents instead of the shit the parents are hawking.

http://www.abstractappeal.com/

[lonestarnot]

54. I Live in court documents! Most things that take place in court don't go

down with ALL the facts, despite the judges' duty to develop.

[mondo joe]

141. Well you clearly haven't reviewed the court documents for THIS case

There's a lot there you obviously don't know.

[Bouncy Ball]

161. Wow.

We present you with information and you refuse to read it. It seems you want to hold onto your opinion instead of learning something.

Her cerebral cortex is GONE. Here's what the cerebral cortex is responsible for (it's the entire wrinkly portion that covers the brain):

It is divided into four lobes.

Frontal Lobe- associated with reasoning, planning, parts of speech, movement, emotions, and problem solving
Parietal Lobe- associated with movement, orientation, recognition, perception of stimuli
Occipital Lobe- associated with visual processing
Temporal Lobe- associated with perception and recognition of auditory stimuli, memory, and speech

(from http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Structure1.html)

You see all that? Reasoning, emotion, speech, vision, MOVEMENT, recognition, she can't even respond to simple stimuli without a cerebral cortex. She can't do anything.

[Dookus]

45. If Terri

comes online and rants and raves at me, then I'll believe she has demonstrated emotion.

But the doctors who've examined her disagree.

Why won't you answer my questions about the videotapes being highly edited? It doesn't change your opinion at all that many hours of tapes were edited down to make it APPEAR that she's responding? How can that fact be of so little importance to you?

[Bouncy Ball]

160. lonestarnot

using medical and physiological information, explain to me how someone with no cerebral cortex can express emotion.

I will wait.

[lonestarnot]

34. Dad ate pudding just before he went into a coma...n/t

[Dookus]

57. And that means Terri is not brain-dead....

umm... how?

[Bouncy Ball]

162. Coma and vegetative state are not the same thing.

And I noticed you said "just before."

And you realize your dad is not Terri, right?

[cynatnite]

26. The parents hope Terri will recover.

This case is so disturbing in the fact that if your spouse is in a persistent vegetative state and you want life support held back so they can die, people can come in and go against your wishes and the wishes of your spouse.

They've thrown everything at the book at her poor husband who only wants to see Terri at peace. She'll never recover and to do this is cruel and unusual punishment in my eyes.

I know she didn't have a living will, but this shows me that even with one, RWer's would stomp all over that as well.

[lonestarnot]

38. Starvation Death Penalty UNWARRANTED! FOR ANYBODY! n/t

[Dookus]

44. Yelling doesn't make your point stronger

Is removing a ventilator "suffocating" someone? If not, what's the difference?

[lonestarnot]

50. I personally LIKE yelling! and Louis Black is one of my FAVORITE

COMEDIANS!

[Dookus]

53. That's very nice

Now how about discussing the topic at hand?

[salin]

114. My father, wth cancer in remission

wrote a living will, in which he asked that feeding or water tubes be used to prolong his life... he asked, when in remissions (for several years), that each of his children and his wife (my mother) sign an acknowlegement and agreement to abide with his wishes. The issue had been abstract before I was asked to sign the document. Knowing it was his wishes (he sent it to me, and discussed it with me) I signed it. I cried while signing it, the concept of allowing him to die of starvation/dehydration was hard to imagine. But it is what he wished - and he didn't want a court battle to prolong his life were he in a vegitative state. The issue didn't come into play. He was at home, under hospice care, and with my Mom when he died. We never had to deal with the actual moment of making the decision were he in the hospital dying. Had that situation arised I would have tearfully had to go along with his wishes. I hope that you would not consider that "murder".

[Bouncy Ball]

163. Your point, such as it is, is getting muddied by the fact

that you are screaming and becoming rapidly incoherent.

[ultraist]

48. And the court did not take legal custody from the spouse

Which they can do if they show neglect or abuse through Adult protective services, just as they do through CPS.

They cannot require however, OPTIMUM treatment, meaning, they could not terminate his legal guardianship if he didn't seek out the best care available. He is only required to provide the basics. Same with kids.

I had mixed feelings about this earlier on because there is so much NOT known about the brain, but at the same time, I don't agree with moving the goal posts as to when a spouse can lose legal guardianship over a disabled spouse. If the standards were higher, any parent, who had more financial backing could gain custody over a spouse.

I hope she doesn't suffer and this is what she wanted. I also hope they are giving her LOADS of morphine, just in case they are wrong about her brain condition. She may still have working nerve endings. Morphine also slows the respiratory & cardiac systems, that's why Hospice gives as much as the patient or family wants.

[bleedingheart]

40. My husband's grandmother refused all food and died

she had loads of health problems and losing the will to eat helped to hasten the end and put an end to her suffering.

[ultraist]

That's very common

Terri is not refusing foods. (I'm not saying you are suggesting she is). Just pointing out that she has a brain condition that will not allow her to eat. I noted above, I know someone who could not take foods and was on a feeding tube for ten years.

Throat cancer survivors who have to have portions of their throats removed often have to have feeding tubes for the rest of their lives. So the "refusing food" doesn't really apply to Terri, IMO.

People who are terminally ill often do refuse food. They lose their appetites due to their illness. This is not what is happening with Terri. Her brain damage prevents her from being able to swallow. She has been like this for ten years. This is not a sign of the dying process for her.

I wonder how long it will take because she is otherwise healthy. Are her parents allowed to be with her?

[lonestarnot]

62. Yes it is one thing to refuse another to be starved! n/t

[bleedingheart]

79. she can't even chew... or swallow properly....

100 years ago this would have been over already.

It is really sad to see her parents in a perpetual state of lost hope/mourning...they should let go.

Sadly the taxpayer money used to keep her alive could be better used with children or adults who need the medical care and who have a better chance for quality of life.

[Bouncy Ball]

164. FIFTY years ago this would have been overwith already.

[KayLaw]

46. If it were I

I would chose an IV with D5W and plenty of morphine. I worked with people like Terri and always wondered whether they could feel pain or not. To me, muscle cramps are horrid, and I can't bear the thought of someone like her suffering without being able to say so. If someone like Scalia could say we shouldn't worry too much about killing death-row innocents because they would go straight to heaven, can't we say the same about the Terri's out there?

[Bunny]

51. I heard a wingnut on the radio today, and his new spin was this:

The marriage vow states "till death do us part". Once Terri is dead, the marriage rights and duties are over, and Terri's remains are remanded back to her parents. So they are therefore free to bury her, instead of the cremation that Michael has ordered. Because, you know, he only wants her cremated to remove any possible evidence of wrong-doing that led to her coma.

Honest to God, that's what the fool was saying. It was pretty hard to twist my brain around. But the gist is that if you are married and you die, your spouse has no right to decide your funeral arrangements, etc. This all reverts back to your parents.

:wtf: :shrug:

Sanctity of marriage, my ass.

[Lars39]

55. The court has already ruled on that, and Michael

receives her remains.

[Bunny]

61. You know, Michael could make a noble gesture and allow

Terri's parents to bury her as they see fit. He's not required to, but it would be nice. Except that the wingnuts would turn her grave into a shrine, people would make pilgrimages, and hold candlelight vigils there every year, and so on. It's really a shame.

[Dookus]

66. well

if her parents weren't such lying bastards, that might've been possible. But considering what they've done to him and Terri, I imagine their wishes are low on his list of priorities. They have been monsters.

[Bunny]

73. Yeah, they have been horrid, and deserve very little consideration.

But picture the shrine potential of Terri's grave: The Shroud of Terri comes to mind, but I probably shouldn't trivialize such a sad situation.

[mondo joe]

147. There's nothing noble about yielding to these psycho assholes

He should stick by his guns and do as he believes Terri would have wanted.

[ultraist]

74. That's correct. CHURCH wedding vows don't equal the LAW

The LAW states the SPOUSE has legal rights over the burial. I knew someone who had seperated from her husband, but not legally, and she exercised her legal rights to have him buried somewhere the mother did NOT want him buried. I thought that was really callous. They had been together only 2 years and had been seperated 6 months.

This mother wanted him buried next to his brother, her other son, and would have paid for it, but she would not let her.

[Dookus]

56. LOL

this case brings out the nut in people, that's for sure.

[lonestarnot]

65. It certainly does...Gets my blood boiling... Poor Terry n/t

[Old and In the Way]

102. We've noticed.

If you felt sympathy for the memory of Terri, you'd let her body die. And if you are so concerned about starvation (which, of course, is impossible for Terri to comprehend because you need a high level functioning brain to understand the situation), you'd accept a morphine drip to allow her to slip away and cease to live this non-life.

But, so far, I've yet to see any semblence of a coherent argument or the addressing of Dookus's questions in your replies in this thread.

[Bouncy Ball]

166. Poor Terri????

I question whether you really care about her or not. If you did, you would think it was horrible that she's been artificially kept alive this long with absolutely no hope for improvement or recovery at all. No cerebral cortex = no recovery, no nothing.

She's not there. She's only still breathing and heart beating because of MACHINES. It's ghastly. It's like something out of a 50's sci-fi movie.

Let her have some peace, some rest for crying out loud.

This is cruel.

[lonestarnot]

58. This is shit! Marriage has nothing to do with it... Starvation is issue.

Repukes are twisted!

[Dookus]

60. Then why

are you parroting every repuke talking point on this issue?

[lonestarnot]

63. Parroting ... are repukes against starving people? Then where's my

damn raise? LOL

[Dookus]

68. Can you make an effort

to put together a coherent point?

The lies you're parroting about this case are all promulgated by right-wing fundies like James Dobson and his batshit-crazy allies.

Why not consider the source of some of the information you're taking at face-value?

Why not address the issue about the videotapes being highly edited to make it APPEAR there is responsiveness where there is none?

[lonestarnot]

72. link ...Case # and Court and despite your insult my args. very coherenn/t

[Dookus]

76. you're a performance artist, aren't you?

"link ...Case # and Court and despite your insult my args. very coherenn/t"

I should make that my sigline. It's just brilliant.

[lonestarnot]

80. Never tell what I am....gotta go now...I'll watch for your posts and we

can have another heated debate soon. Friends? Peace brother..

[Dookus]

82. Yes,

performance art. It's the only possible explanation.

Good show! Well done.

[lonestarnot]

83. Bow....the end. n/t

[ultraist]

84. LOL! How many beers have you had this evening?

[lonestarnot]

87. I'm back had to run out...sorry, never like to leave in the middle of a

good argument...I hate to disappoint, but I'm not a drinker usually, I tip a few now and again, but don't like to loose my head...and this conversation was about Terry not me, or so I thought...

[ultraist]

89. I was just joking! LOL!

[Modem Butterfly]

85. His arghs are indeed very coherenn/t

ROFLMAO!

[lonestarnot]

88. ran out of space for the n/t what? I have spell check n/t

coherent

[Dookus]

90. That clears it all up

thanks.

[lonestarnot]

92. ok then What about Terry? are you still convinced she should be starved?

[Dookus]

93. I'm convinced

she should be removed from life support. If you'd tried to make some argument against that, you've failed. I've seen little but emotional or incoherent one-liners from you.

But yes, she should be removed from life support, as she wished. I would prefer, for her family's sake, for her to be quickly euthanized, but that is not a legal option.

So barring that, yes, remove the tube. Court after court has agreed with that.

[lonestarnot]

94. Yikes, could you go into the room and take care of the rest of her or eat

in front of her as she lays starving? Could you eat dinner knowing she is starving?

[Dookus]

96. You've already

stated that you let your dog suffer rather than be euthanized, for selfish reasons.

I think that effectively shows that you'd rather let somebody suffer endlessly.

I eat dinner every day of my life knowing that someone, somewhere is starving. But in this specific case, how does one's personal discomfort around death change the facts?

She's in a persistent vegetative state. She wouldn't notice if I was chowing down on a sandwich or not.

As I've been telling you all along, emotional appeals don't sway me in this case.

[lonestarnot]

107. She is not suffering or she would display agony rather than smiling. n/t

[Dookus]

112. No, that is not true

You don't seem to understand what it means to be without a cerebral cortex. Or maybe you understand all too well... damned if I can tell.

[LisaL]

167. What's not true? Do people without cerebral cortex suffer?

So, are you saying they can feel?
But yet when she is starved to death she won't feel pain?

[Dookus]

171. I'm saying it's not true

that Terri "smiles" because she's happy. It's a reflex. I'm saying that if Terri were feeling pain (which I believe is impossible), she would not be grimacing to reflect that. The part of the brain that handles all that is gone.

[Old and In the Way]

104. Well, I think it's impolite to eat w/o offering to share......

In this case, I really don't think Terri would mind.

[Bouncy Ball]

165. How are Terri's remains "remanded" back to her parents???

If I were to die, my remains wouldn't then "belong" to my parents!

How crazy! :crazy:

[janx]

197. How sick.

This young woman had a mind of her own, and she expressed her wishes to her husband and others. That her body is being used as a political prop is disgusting.

[leesa]

86. I agree. It's entirely natural.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lonestarnot]

95. Welcome to DU nursey... so you've seen it many times...what do you think

about it?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

98. Money4Kill claims to be an attorney too!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=145&topic_id=3956#3958

It's all so confusing! :crazy:

[Dookus]

99. heheh

well, he or she is gone now. Pushing up granite daisies.

[lonestarnot]

106. Yep a freep is a freep is a freep perhaps....n/t

[Swamp Rat]

128. I guess the little troll got sent to its granite tomb.

Sayonara sucker! :hi:

[Piperay]

101. Same thing happened

to my aunt who had colon cancer, she couldn't eat, had sores in her mouth etc. and literally starved to death.:-(

[DemocracyInaction]

103. What is really criminal is that we have ways to help the inevitable get

over with in a humane way. We are more humane to our death row criminals. We don't hang or fry them as much as old. We do lethal injection. It is idiotic and barbaric (how do you know what a body feels)to do this starvation shit (get out of the cave and this backward thinking). When it comes to this like this gal in Florida, then remove the tube and give her a lethal injection. Jesus Christ we are more humane to our animals...........this country is soooo fucked up.

[Old and In the Way]

105. Totally agree.

Sadly, her body is kept alive as a cynical fundraiser-rallying point for the Right-to-Lifers who simply are using her and her family. It's disgusting.

This is no way honors Terri...it simply a tool to exploit the unwitting by the same con-artists who debase the life of Christ to fatten their bank accounts.

[lonestarnot]

109. I'm not a right to lifer...I am a not for starving anything or anyone! n/t

[Dookus]

113. Are you opposed

to "suffocating" people by removing them from ventilators? I've asked you this before, but you didn't answer.

[lonestarnot]

122. Nope... This takes only a few minutes to kill; starvation can go on for

weeks.

[Dookus]

134. ok

so if it's quick, it's not murder but if it's prolonged, it is?

Can you find a legal statute to that effect? That would indicate that shooting you would not be murder, but kicking you to death slowly would be. It doesn't make sense.

[Misunderestimator]

148. Good post.

:thumbsup:

[ashmanonar]

153. omg, i'm glad i didn't drink anything just now...or it'd be all

over my computer screen. BWAHAHAHAHA

idk about kicking LSN to death...maybe papercuts?

oh, and on terri schiavo...let the poor woman move on already! her spirit's already gone, her body isn't of any purpose now.

i prefer the socrates position on death: the body is only a physical manifestation of the soul or spirit, and when the spirit has left, the body serves no purpose. there is a cycle of life. death only leads to renewed life (theologically and ecologically).

it was her choice. let her choice be honored.

[ElectroPrincess]

116. A feeding tube is an EXTRA-ordinary measure to extend someone's

life that is terminal. It is NOT killing them. People have ended their lives who've suffered from terminal diseases since very soon after the beginning of time.

Starvation is a natural way for the terminally ill to die.

[lonestarnot]

126. If one chooses not to eat...for Terry the choice was made to feed her, now

it's not right to take away the food!

[Dookus]

137. But that argument

would also dictate that once someone is on a ventilator, they can never be removed.

It simply doesn't work.

[mondo joe]

143. So you're saying life support can never be removed?

No matter what the person requested?

[arcos]

108. over 100 replies and only one recommendation? Recommend it! nt

[lonestarnot]

110. Nope.

[arcos]

111. well, feel free not to...

I do think others may want to.

[lonestarnot]

123. alrightie then...n/t

[FM Arouet666]

124. Terri is permanently brain damaged, no chance for recovery.

Why keep the woman alive? She will never recover, and had stated that she did not want to be kept alive artificially.

In general, patients in Terri's situation are very common, and starvation is not an uncommon manner of expiration. It is particularly pathetic when it involves end stage cancer patients. What are you feeding, the patient or the cancer killing the patient?

I see families all the time who refuse to acknowledge the reality of a loved ones condition. Hope for a miracle, belief in the stories about dramatic recoveries, refusal to emotionally let go. I remain neutral, but I have, on occasion, petitioned hospital ethics committees to stop treatment when it is clear that the family is unable or unwilling to stop treatment.

I am sorry if this offends you, but it is the reality of modern medicine. Doctors can keep the body alive artificially, even though the patient has zero chance of recovery. Futile treatment creates unnecessary suffering for the patient.

Allowing one to die because of starvation is not inhuman, what is inhuman is artificially keeping a severely brain damaged woman alive to sooth your emotional needs, in defiance of what the patient wanted.

[lonestarnot]

125. Don't believe you. n/t

[FM Arouet666]

127. And that is the problem..... Belief

The whole argument has become a religious field day. Pray for Terri, give her a miracle etc etc. Having seen literally hundreds of Terris die a prolonged death because the family did not believe the medical facts, I find the who argument pathetic. Believe what you like, the medical facts are what they are, the human species does not regenerate brains.

[ultraist]

131. Medical definition of persistant vegetative state

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/921394859.html

A persistent vegetative state, which sometimes follows a coma, refers to a condition in which individuals have lost cognitive neurological function and awareness of the environment but retain noncognitive function and a perserved sleep-wake cycle.
It is sometimes described as when a person is technically alive, but his/her brain is dead. However, that description is not completely accurate. In persistent vegetative state the individual loses the higher cerebral powers of the brain, but the functions of the brainstem, such as respiration (breathing) and circulation, remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli, but the patient does not speak or obey commands. Patients in a vegetative state may appear somewhat normal. They may occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh.

Is there any treatment?
Once the patient is out of immediate danger, although still in coma or vegetative state, the medical care team will concentrate on preventing infections and maintaining the patient's physical state as much as possible.

Such maintenance includes preventing pneumonia and bed sores and providing balanced nutrition. Physical therapy may also be used to prevent contractures (permanent muscular contractions) and orthopedic deformities that would limit recovery for the patients who emerge from coma.

What is the prognosis?
The outcome for coma and vegetative state depends on the cause and on the location, severity, and extent of neurological damage: outcomes range from recovery to death. People may emerge from a coma with a combination of physical, intellectual, and psychological difficulties that need special attention.

Recovery usually occurs gradually, with patients acquiring more and more ability to respond. Some patients never progress beyond very basic responses, but many recover full awareness. Patients recovering from coma require close medical supervision. A coma rarely lasts more than 2 to 4 weeks. Some patients may regain a degree of awareness after vegetative state. Others may remain in a vegetative state for years or even decades. The most common cause of death for a person in a vegetative state is infection such as pneumonia.

Information provided by the
National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke,
National Institutes of Health

[housewolf]

132. May I suggest that you do some research

into the actual cause of death of many alzheimer's patients as well as terminally-ill cancer (and other diseases) patients?

For many, many of them the actual cause of death is starvation. They reach a point where they either cannot accept food anymore, or choose not to, and their bodies wear out. It is not painful to them. It is greatly painful to loved ones to watch, however.


:cry:

[mondo joe]

142. Fortunately the court relies on science, not your magical beliefs

as it should.

[ashmanonar]

154. ahh, intentional ignorance.

the symbol of america now, it seems.

[Quixote1818]

130. Excellent post

This line sum's it all up beautifully:

what is inhuman is artificially keeping a severely brain damaged woman alive to sooth your emotional needs, in defiance of what the patient wanted.

[MADem]

151. Here's a list of links that discuss the issue

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/Schiavo_links.htm

The scan of her brain shows that it is mostly an empty vessel filled with spinal fluid.

[CoffeeCat]

138. Terri's life is more sad than her death....

This USA Today article (link below) spells it all out. At least it spells it out to me.

Terri had an eating disorder. A glaring, obvious eating disorder that everyone around her ignored. Her husband noticed her routinely going to the bathroom after meals, and so did a friend. They said nothing.

Despite, Terri's doctors' assessments--that she was starving herself on liquid diets that left her with dangerously imbalanced potassium levels--Terri's own father insists that she never had an eating disorder. Again, more denial--even after her collapse and heaps of medical evidence to the contrary.

I am terribly sad for Terri--and for the life she led. It must have been really painful to struggle with an eating disorder--and more importantly--to grapple with the underlying issues that fueled the eating disorder.

Terri's eating disorder was, of course, her responsibility. Maybe if she had more time--she may have found a good therapist who could have helped her to manage the bulimia. However, it is a sad irony that when Terri was alive--those around her were so dead.

---------------
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-02-25-schiavo-eating-disorder_x.htm

--------------
Quotes from USA Today article:

The Schiavos' lawyer said her 1990 collapse was caused by a potassium imbalance brought on by an eating disorder.

<snip>

Like almost every element in the case, whether Schiavo really was bulimic is in dispute. Her father, Robert Schindler, said he does not believe his daughter had an eating disorder and thinks her husband had something to do with her collapse. Michael Schiavo has denied hurting his wife.

During the malpractice case, at least one of Schiavo's friends testified they knew she was bulimic because after meals out, she always immediately excused herself to go to the bathroom. Her husband also knew she had peculiar eating patterns but did not realize they were dangerous, Fox said.

Medical records from the hospital where Schiavo was treated after her collapse note that "she apparently has been trying to keep her weight down with dieting by herself, drinking liquids most of the time during the day and drinking about 10-15 glasses of iced tea."

Fox said that in the months before her collapse, Schiavo went to the doctor because she had stopped menstruating. It was a silent "cry for help," the lawyer said. But the doctor did not take a complete medical history that might have revealed an eating disorder.

[Misunderestimator]

146. My mom also died from MS, fortunately in her sleep.

I agree with your post. The "starvation" angle is used as a scare tactic and nothing more.

I did see my mother with bedsores... she was in the most horrible pain of her life from them, far worse than the third degree burns she had suffered which was the reason she was in a nursing home at the time. Fortunately at the end of her life she went sleeping, but I do know (because we talked about it when I was a child) that she would have chosen to die rather than to be kept alive only by a feeding tube.

It's such an awful shame that Terri never signed a Living Will. I really must do that myself as soon as possible.

[MARALE]

204. Thanks for agreeing

I wrote this post before I left work on Friday, did not think it would be such an argument starter. My mother had some bedsores and had gotten severely burned many years ago. What people don't seem to understand about Terri is that her body has decided it is time for her to die and her family doesn't want to let it happen. She did not have an accident that only hurt her swallowing, she can not grow her brain back, she does not have the senses to feel pain anymore. she just needs to be let go.

[kittykitty]

149. "Starvation" is often part of the natural death process. People who reach

an old age often have their systems beak down, just as an old car breaks down, and you just can't fix it anymore. They take a turn for the worse, are bedridden for a short while and on their own, just refuse to eat or drink. They are in their right mind, but just too tired to continue living. They sleep, don't eat or drink and then are gone.

Despite cajoling to eat and drink, they refuse.

[imenja]

150. They intend to starve her so that she can die

Remember, Terry Schiavo asked not to be kept alive through artificial means. This legal battle for all these years has been to violate her expressed wish. I'm sure her death will be painful for those who love her, as was your grandmother's. But these are decisions that need to be left to family members. The state should not impose itself in family decisions. The court played a role because the family went to court to settle their dispute over Terry's fate. The Fl legislature and governor are using Terry Schiavo as a political football and that is unconscionable.

[Zhade]

152. Terri - lacking a cerbral cortex and NO LONGER THERE TO FEEL PAIN.

She's fucking DEAD. Why can't people GET that? Let her go already!

[Bouncy Ball]

155. I agree. She is not in pain.

She has no cerebral cortex. She cannot perceive what is happening to her and it is crazy to have kept her artificially alive all this time, with no chance of recovery. You can't grow back a cerebral cortex, and without it, there is no communication, no language, no perception of anything, no nothing.

We treat our pets better than that.

[LisaL]

168. We do not kill our pets because they can't talk.

We don't demand our pets learned to use the Internet. A fish does nothing more than swim in it's bowl, no? So, what is the problem in allowing Terri to live the way she is?

[Bouncy Ball]

169. Obviously we don't. What a silly non-argument that is.

TERRI isn't living. Terri's heart is only beating and her lungs are only taking in air because of the machines she is hooked up to. SHE is not living. The machines are FORCING her body to live.

Is that life?

It's not death. Must be a limbo-like hell.

Real nice.

[LisaL]

170. Why not find out something about the case? Just a little bit?

Before forming an opinion? Is that too much to ask? Terri is not on the machines. She is not breathing because she hooked up to the machines. She can breathe on her own. There is no machines that are forcing her body to live. She has a feeding tube, which doesn't even have to be on at all times.

[Bouncy Ball]

172. And without the feeding tube, she dies.

And without a cerebral cortex, she cannot move on her own, speak, feel emotions, see, ANYTHING.

And without a cerebral cortex, there is no chance of recovery.

I've debated with you on this before. She is not there. She is gone. She is a shell. And the courts have found "clear and compelling evidence" that she did indeed make it clear that she never wanted to be this way.

Why refuse to honor her wishes? Why refuse to acknowledge that her husband, as the person she married, has the right to make medical decisions that she cannot make?

The feeding tube (which is a machine, what is it, a creature??) is all that is keeping her alive. Period. And all that has been keeping her alive. When they remove it, she won't recover and start requesting cupcakes. She's been gone for a long time.

[Dookus]

173. oh come on

read the thread and THEN decide who doesn't know anything about it.

yes, Terri can breathe. You'll also notice that that isn't a point of contention, and has nothing to do with the matter.

Legally and medically, a feeding tube *IS* life-support. She expressed a wish not to be kept on life support if in a persistent vegetative state. EVERY court has agreed with her husband over the lies and bullshit claims of her parents. EVERY court... at EVERY step of the way.

[LisaL]

174. Excuse me, I read bouncy ball's posts.

He/she just started a thread in which he/she claims machines are forcing Terri's heart to bit. No machines are forcing her heart to bit, it bits on it's own.
This poster, bouncy ball also mentioned machines force Terri to breathe-again, false, as she is not on a ventilator.
Feeding tube can not do any of the things mentioned above. It provides nutrition and hydration, but it doesn't force someone's heart to bit or someones lungs to breathe air.
Thus, I feel I rightly suggested this poster found out a little bit about the case before forming an opinion.
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Dookus]

177. I'm not sure what post you're referring to

the post you responded to from Bouncy Ball does not assert she's on a ventilator.

It claims that a feeding tube is a "machine", as opposed to say, a creature.

I will add that legally and medically, a feeding tube is a life-support system.

[Dookus]

185. well

I read BouncyBall's OTHER thread, and nowhere in that one does she say Terri's on a heart or lung machine.

Perhaps you rolled your eyes so hard you couldn't read it right?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

175. The problem in letting Terri "live" is that

she is only alive in a technical sense. Her body lives, but her soul is gone. And when the soul is gone, the life worth living is OVER, IMHO.

[LisaL]

176. Since I don't believe in God, the concept of soul is foreign to me.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

178. Well, phooey! I'm no theologian!

I'm not sure I believe in god either, but I do think we have souls. It is what animates us. When we're dead, we are no longer animated; our souls are gone. That's the best I can do; hope it helps.

[janx]

191. That explains a lot. n/t

[Gloria]

188. Pretty much the same thing with my father and Parkinson's disease...

Couldn't swallow, spoon fed him mushy stuff, then he hardly ate at all, slept a lot....and died, skin and bones.

[bush_is_wacko]

198. Yes, I have been through a similar situation.

Had to make a decision about a feeding tube, breathing tube, and fluids about my grandmother after a stroke.

There is an awful lot of cruelty IMO, hooking up a loved one to die like this and knowing she will never have the voice to tell you she doesn't want to live this way anymore.

My family chose to let my grandmother die peacefully, in her own bed, at home, surrounded by loved ones, instead of a living hell for however many years it took her body to defeat the machines she would have to be hooked up to!

[Dookus]

199. sorry you had to go through that

sounds like she had a better death than many.

[ashmanonar]

200. definitely the way i want to go.

don't hook me up to machines. if it's time, it's time. no machine or miracle will prevent me from "dying" when i am meant to die.

much rather go in peace and surrounded by friends and family, then they HAVE to go celebrate my life rather than mourn its passing.

[bush_is_wacko]

202. Like I said. Death is part of life and if you look at it that way there

is no other way to go through it than with family and friends. Like any life event, marriage, childbirth, graduation,etc., etc., it should be shared with those you loved and who loved you as a new journey for you. I think what makes people fear it is the fact it is a journey they cannot take with you. Nonetheless, it is a journey we ALL eventually take. My belief is that we will be met by those that went before us and they will once again help us celebrate new journeys.

[Contrary1]

203. All you have to do to win this argument with a Freeper...

is to educate them to the fact that tax dollars are being used to keep
Terri alive and drag out the inevitable in the courts for umpteen years.

It's very unlikely that many of them have figured this out, and everyone
knows how much they hate their money being used for frivolous lawsuits.