What do you think of the European Union? I say it sucks!

[palme]

I have always wondered what American progressives makes of the European Union. The left in Norway, had always fought against it, because we feel it is a way for the corporatist tyrants to take over everything. All the right leaning parties love the EU over here.

Now, some leftists are starting to break rank, and want us to join the EU in order to help build an opposition against George Bush's USA.

POX on Bush for making good hearted leftist support the EU!!

Hej,

Palme.

[Walt Starr]

1. I adore the EU

and wish them a long and prosperous union.

[palme]

3. Why do you do that? Do you know that they force member nations

to bend to the large corporations... Norway, which isn't even a member, tends to give large ammounts of money to people in the districts to help them get along. Now, the EU is trying to stop us, telling us that we do not have the right to define anymore who needs help and who doesn't. I think it is crazy.

Heck, Bush supported a strong EU when he was here, he has also supported the constitution...


NO TO THE EU.

It ain't democratic. It ain't progressive...

Sooner or later if this development is allowed to continue, it will not matter whether you are a democrat or a republican. MR. Coporation will rule everything..

It has gone too far already IMHO.

Hej,

Palme.

[Terran]

2. What is your beef with the EU, specifically?

I mean, they are strong on the environment, strong on social and economic justice issues...what more could you ask for? While I don't know for sure, I doubt their corporations get quite the special treatment ours do.

[palme]

5. Where do you want me to start..... :-)

The absolutely biggest reason is that it isn't democratic...

Unelected bureacrats in Brussels will dictate what should happen in far off regions of Norway. I think that people should to the greatest democratic degree possible control their own local affairs. The EU operates without people being allowed to know what happens at the meetings. Another thing...Look at what happens now when the EU constitution vote....The EU puts millions into campaign money for the pro constitution fight, leaving us, the little people, to fight on our own. Which, we will do quite well anyways.

Number 2 is Solidarity.

The EU is a trade block. It screws over third world nations.. Do you know that the EU subisides Danish farmers to export dried milk to third world nations, basically killing off local farmers? Do you know that the EU basically blocks by the way of tariffs the European common market off to the third world making them starve to death. No wonder Bush, likes the EUBeing outside of the EU, makes a country being able to stand up with the poor countries against the capitalist greedy USA and EU....

The third reason is the environment. In EU, the EURO rules, environmental standards be darned.

Being outside, the EU, allows a country to stand up and fight for a better environment outside the big bullies, USA and EU.

The EU bullies third world countries around. Thailand was basically told that they better buy airbus or they would not get tsunami help..

How come that virtually every leftist in Europe is against the EU?

Do you think we are crazy?

Have you seen the demonstrations that used to happen when the EU have meetings..

IMHO, the EU is the corporations way of making Europe just as subserviant to their needs as the US.

Hej,

Palme.

[Dirk39]

4. Hello Olof!

Hello from Germany,

I would support the EU, if it would be a Europe of the people, not of the corporations. On the other hand I don't think, Protectionism and the Nation State can survive or are concepts for the future. The situation is really weired. In Germany only the far right and the nazis are against Europe, the Left is only against the neoliberal and militaristic Constitution. At the moment, I don't see any chance for a progressive Europe.

Dirk

[palme]

8. Hello Dirk.

I grew up in love with the EU.

Isn't it every progressive's dream to see a united Europe after all that Europe has gone through.....

As a German I am sure you are more aware of that than most.....

However, at least leftist leaning people in my country are horified at what the EU is turning into.... Particularly the lack of democracy.

Heck, hasn't the nation state served Germany well after WW2, it certainly has served the Scandinavian countries well.....

I wish the EU would go back to the free market of the 70's and 80's...

Anyways, these are just my thoughts... I wish you all the best in Germany..You have done well, integrating the old DDR, but you have plenty of work ahead ofyou.

Hej,

Palme.

[marmar]

6. Interesting discussion...

To us liberals here in the United Fascist States of America, the EU appears like some sort of liberal Land of Oz, as does Canada. I guess it all depends on perspective!

[palme]

9. Well, I think many progressives in Europe feel that EU is the

corporations attempt to turn Europe into the USA...

If you get what I am trying to say.

Hej,

Palme.

[marmar]

12. Absolutely I get what you're trying to say

and believe me, this version of the United States is the LAST thing that Europe should want to be. I can't wait to get to Europe this summer for a break from this warped country.

:scared:

[palme]

14. COME TO SCANDINAVIA THIS SUMMER!! :-)

It is very beautiful in summer, and everyone is very happy....

If you come to Norway, I'll buy you a beer :-)

Hej,

Palme.

[marmar]

15. I'll be in Copenhagen for sure...

and I hope to make it to Stockholm and Oslo as well, so I might just take you up on that offer.

[palme]

21. Send me a message if you get here.... :-)

hej,

Palme.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. I find American Onions to be more flavorful.

Oh... never mind.

[SmokingJacket]

10. I know very little about it, but...

I personally prefer the idea of small and fully sovereign nations. I know it makes sense to band together for certain purposes, economic and otherwise, but if I were king of the universe I'd get rid of it!

But to emphasize... I'm an *ignoramus* so please, no one need tell me that!

[China_cat]

11. The EU is only hope you have

to keep from being Iraq north.

[palme]

13. See I get the point, that the EU could be very important

in order to help protect againt themselves. Heck, I think even people like Blair realises that if Europe is totally split, the USA will force its way. But, there must be a way of doing that without giving power to a bunch of unelected corporatist bureaucrats in Brussels.

I guess, that is why I am so dissapointed by the constitution, because, I have been one pro-European progressive and has taken endless flak because of it....

The way things are running now, makes democracy in the EU look bad compared to the upcoming elections in Egypt. You know what I am saying?

Hej,

Palme.

[xpat]

16. Let's try to remember why the EU was created.

After two world wars that destroyed Europe and left its people destitute, some far-sighted statemen set out to create the conditions for durable peace on the continent. Their idea, simply put, was that by fostering mutual trade relations that progressively integrated the former enemies, they would be forced to deal with their differences by creative win-win solutions rather than bombs.

It seems to work, without being perfect. I find the stipulation of free trade economics in the constitution a bad idea. However, I find the absorption of countries with weak economies that subsequently strengthen a marvelous idea.

The initiative towards eventual admission of Turkey is a model for further incursions into the Middle East, which could bring democracy and economic development to that region without bombs.

The current negotiations with Iran, offering the possibility of lucrative commercial relations with the EU in exchange for nuclear restraint is another example of the EU method in action. Just today the Bush administration has been forced to bow to this approach agreeing to more open trade with Iran and even WTO membership. I suspect that Iran's threat to cut off oil in case of US aggression may have help the administration to see the light.

In any case, the EU is not perfect. Of course it isn't. Fukuyama's end of history is a pipe dream. However, it seems to be a major evolution in the way human beings organize their existence. More than 300 million people in 25 countries have volutarily surrendered some of their national autonomy in order to create a more perfect union (where does that phrase come from?). The nation state is a dinosaur, but it is still thrashing that massive tail, so we have to duck and watch where we are going. But, the EU, which has a teeny little tail seems to be out maneuvering the dinosaurs and will likely inherit the earth.

[palme]

17. Thank you for a thoughtful post.

You make many good points that I agree with..

Let's just say that I think the EU took a wrong turn with the threaty of Maastrich. Then, the people were not consulted, and were generally not on board. I am so curious to see what happens when the constituion is rejected in some country.

Last, I've read, the socialists in France are going against it, and the rightwing Chiraq is getting worried. Then there is Holland, Denmark, and the UK...

You have to bring the people on board.. I fear, that the EU has failed to do that.

Hej,

Palme.

[amjucsc]

18. I support the EU for the most part...

Though I'm also a principled advocate of free trade...

(And yes I fully agree that the EU should stop handing out farm subsidies...)

[palme]

19. The EU doesn't stop at handling out subsidies at home.

They actually subsidise exported dry milk to developing countries, killing off thirld world farmers.

Those kinds of policies makes me want go into the streets an riot.

Hej,

Palme.

[Just Me]

20. The right-wingers in USA hate both the EU and the UN.

Just FYI,...and the reason is because they seek to break both up so that they can rule the whole roost. I can understand the paranoia associated with the EU turning into the same kind of corporatist regime that exists in the USA. However, it seems to me that the underlying philosophies are quite different.

Besides, the nations which form the EU are still doing a helluva better job of remaining committed to taking care of their populace than the USA. Moreover, as a united body, the EU is better able to compete against predatory economic policies.

So, I believe the EU is a very good thing,...both for its people and a balance of power in the world.

[palme]

23. Hi Just Me...

I agree we you that the EU could be good thing....But don't you agree that for instance Norway and Sweden has done quite well being outside the Union. (I know Sweden joined a while ago, but they were ok when they were outside)..


I am pro European cooperation. I might very well be inside the EU, but the EU bureacrats must start listening to the people. I am actually an optimist... I think that when the bruhaha over the constitution settles down, we might see a more democratic EU.

I agree that the Europeans nations must stick together, otherwise, the USA, China etc will push the small nations around. God knows, they are already trying to do it.

But, I want the people to be in charge, not a bunch of unelected bureacrats in Brussels.

Rightwingers in the USA might be against the EU, but rightwingers in Europe loves it (that is except for the neo nazis)...The corporate crowd loves the EU.

Heck, by the current EU laws, they have argued that they can in a "crisis" situtation take control over Norwegian oil, and force us to sell it only to them....

I dunno. You have never lived with occupation. I am named after my uncle who was killed by the Germans.... I do not take to easily to give up national sovereignty.

BTW. Just me. I really like your posts here.

Hej,

Palme.

[Just Me]

52. Thank you for your kind compliment.

*LOL* but believe me,...I have my rabid moments,...as a passionate, self-confessed 100% human being. x(

Anyway, I could be wrong in my perception that "the people" in the nations forming EU still enjoy greater priority than the corporate interests,...due to painful lessons learned via the last world war (which were suffered as a result of corporate, war-profiteers). There is plenty of evidence that "the people" feel more free (MORE FREE) to show their muscle and that they have not yet been imprisoned in the same "concentration camp of the mind" that the citizens of the US have been trapped.

Moreover, "the people" of the nations joining EU are being respected within the parameters of principles which embrace democracy: freedom of expression, separation of religion and governance, advancing a level/fair playing field, strong labor representation, human rights advocates, and just plain human decency and dignity rather than some "law of the jungle" barbaric attitude. In a way, the EU is a body which challenges fundamental principles concerning whether totalitarian-type governments (like the evolving one in the USA) can succeed in the face of a governance which strengthens its people (like that evolving via the EU).

Being a person who does want "the people" to succeed, you can imagine where my principles and my hopes are positioned.

[palme]

59. I like passion. We need passion, and

Stout hearts, fierly souls, and steely determination....


We face a vicious enemy.

Hej,

Pal,me

[neweurope]

22. Palme, I used to think like you. I was against giving up all these

nation's rights and standards for - always lesser - European rights and standards. I also was strongly against the Euro.

I think differently meanwhile - if for one reason only: I have read PNAC, and everything I have seen the US government do since 9/11 proves to me that they meant what they stated in PNAC. Only a united Europe will be able to withstand the Bushistas. And not even a united Europe is a guarantee because you and Dirk are absolutely right that it's mostly about the power of big business. And big business doesn't give a damn about genocide and loss of human rights and so on. Still I think EU is the only chance we've got. But we have to keep on shouting that we, the people, want to be heard. Hell, in Germany they don't even have a vote about the European constitution...

Still. We have a thousand problems but we have one very big problem and that's the Bushistas. If we can stand up against them - we might be able to get a better Europe after-wards. If we can not stand up to them it won't matter, anyway. To quote an infamous US-citizen: You don't go to battle with the Europe you might want to have but with the Europe you have. Without Europe though, as individual countries, we won't stand a chance.

edit: typos

---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[palme]

27. You make good points.... I think the conclusion is:

We need the EU

The EU as it is, is not good.

We need to fight to make the EU what is should be!


People power, not corporate greed.

Hej,

Palme.

[neweurope]

36. I agree. Let's have a beer on this if you come to Germany (or I to Norway)

-------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Swamp Rat]

50. Me too! Prost! Skoal!

:toast:

[palme]

53. Skål! :-) I have to admit that the Swedes have me pretty Vodkaed up at

the moment.,

Hej,

Palme.

[Swamp Rat]

56. Hêia!

Hvordan står det til med deg? ... that's about all I can remember. I used to live in Skien... I LOVE Telemark! :)

:hi:

[palme]

61. Det går veldig bra :-)

I am about to head out for a bit.

Hej,

Palme.

[Swamp Rat]

64. Ha det bra!

Ser deg senere! :hi:

[loro mi dicevano]

24. Oh, bor du i Norge da? :P I think that Americans view the EU very

differently than Europeans might, because with Bush, having a union full of progressive countries - regardless of whether or not it's actually accomplishing what it set out to do - seems like something that could only happen in our dreams. In our union, we've got, well, uh, Texas, so the EU sounds pretty dang appealing from across the ocean.

[palme]

28. Bor i Norge Ja :-) I agree with what you are saying.... That's

why I participate here... To add a bit of nuance to the debate..

Hej,

Palme.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. On balance, I'm in favour of it

The worst thing about it is the agricultural subsidies - as you say, they are screwing developing world farmers. But even they have, earlier, helped out the poorer EU countries to catch up with the richer ones. The EU has fostered democracy in countries that want to join. Its general encouragement of international cooperation is good.

In the UK, it's not seen as corporatist. Maybe that's just because our laws already help corporations too much. Bureaucrats have some power - but the Council of Ministers has much more. Sometimes that can suck - but sometimes they behave better than our own politicians. Human rights legislation has improved in Britain as a result of the EU.

[palme]

31. But, don't you think it is very dangerous to hand over power

to a group of unelected people.... You might like what they are doing now, but who knows what they will do in the future...

I guess that is also why I oppose the Patriot act, and Blair's terror laws.... They might, and I am being generous, be honestly ment, but I do not want the government to have that sort of power over people...

This is not what my ancestors fought for...

Hej,

Palme.

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. The irony of Blair's terror laws is that the most effective opposition

was in the unelected House of Lords. The people that the British population elect aren't very good - and they make sure they keep porportional representation out, so they keep getting elected. The EU is better than having a revolution (I think).

[DemExpat]

26. I love the idea of a strong and united Europe, a "civilised" balance

of power to other power blocks in the world. Absolutely vital IMO.

I share your dismay and concern about corporate claws grabbing hold of the social-democratic policies of European countries, and about the lack of democracy in (not) electing the Euro officials in Brussels!

But I remain carefully optimistic that the EU is the only chance we have in molding the region for viability and survival.

When I see so-called right wing parties here in The Netherlands voting for gay adoptions overseas......I realize that a move to the right here is still a far cry from far right conservatism in, for example, the US with its conservative Christian power block.

Vigilance is necessary, but I still have faith and hope for the future.
At least the leftist parties seem to have more cohesion and united oppostion to right wing influences!

:hi:

DemEx in The Hague

[palme]

32. Hi there, I largely agree with you... Are you Dutch?

hej,

Palme.

[DemExpat]

33. American by birth, Scottish by ancestry, Dutch citizen/dual US....

born in Texas.....:D

:hi:

DemEx

[palme]

37. Hehe.. That is an unbeatable combination!! :-)

Kinda like a long Island Ice Tea....


What do you make of the developments in Holland after the van Gogh affair?

Hej,

Palme.

[DemExpat]

43. One area in which I have little optimism at the moment....

but things can change...
At least there is more public debate now about multi-cultural society and what this means.

:hi:

DemEx

[palme]

49. I want to make that my next thread, but I not sure

DU is ready for that kind of debate. I got banned in a rant against Saudi Arabia last year, so I am trying to be careful :-)

But, I think we, the progressives, have spent generations fighting against the oppression from the church.

We need the same kind of commitment against the bigoty coming out of many mosques.

Many gays are waking up. Do a google search on Bruce Bawer, an American gay guy who now lives in Norway, but used to live in Holland.

We need to fight this. Right now in Norway, the some poor immigrant girls are having to fight for themselves. That is not right. The political left need to be there right with them. IMHO.

Hej,

Palme.

[DemExpat]

55. Yeah, I'd be very careful on this subject here....

coming from a totally different history and context, isn't it?

DemEx

[palme]

60. I'll leave it for another night, when I am not all vodkaed up :-)

I am trying to behave better this time...

But, What do you think?

Hej,

Palme.

[palme]

66. What does that "eye symbol" mean anyways,

The special John Stewart International edition is on CNN at the moment.

I think he is great :-)

Hej,

Palme.

[Just Me]

69. Hmmm,...a rant against SA,...

,...gotcha' banned?

That's curious. I wish I knew the details. But, maybe when you're not so liquored,...you can share.

[mr blur]

29. I'm all in favour of it

And it's about time our govt. here in the UK joined the Euro. The right wing "nationalists" who insist that we would lose our national identity through being part of Europe are just bonkers. The world has moved on too far for us all to be squabbling over imagined differences. Nothing to stop me being a Briton and a European - which is, in fact, what I am.

[DemExpat]

30. I am an expat American living for years here....and feel very European

as I travel in various countries.


:kick:

DemEx

[palme]

34. Is the British left united in support for the EU?

In scandinavia it is totally opposite.

ALL the big media corporations, virtually all the big parties (including the social democrats) are campaining for the EU.

However, the socialist left is fighting against it.

Hej,

Palme.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. Nearly all the left now supports the EU

when we joined in the 70s, a significant amount were against it. But they've mainly disappeared. I think the Green Party is against it (or at least wants massive reform it - basically, to start again), but their support is pretty small.

[palme]

47. I knew Blair was pro EU, but I wondered if he had any opposition from the

left. Thank you for your answer.

Hej,

Palme.

[Lautremont]

38. There's a whole layer cake of nuance to it all, from what I can tell.

On the right, you've got your free-market corporatists who want the EU for precisely the same reasons the free-market corporatists on this side of the pond want NAFTA, which has resulted in all sorts of nightmarish de facto corporate governance. But in America you've got your other right-wingers, the simpletons who are a-skeert of any political body which might be in competition (always, in their minds, ultimately a military competition) with America.

On the left you've got people such as yourselves, who see the EU as an opportunity for fat-cat capitalists to shake their puppet strings about, and then the ones who love the EU for the quite justifiable reason that having a relatively restrained superpower in the world other than America is like having a cop around when you're about to be assaulted by a maniacal, knife-weilding drunk.

I guess my point is that your question is complicated, and I'm cursed by my Canadian-ness to see both sides. So: dunno.

[palme]

46. I agree with you one 100 percent. We need the EU, but

we need a different EU.

Hopefully, we will get it.

Hej,

Palme.

[Rann]

39. Palme

Hej Hopp

[palme]

42. falleri fallera :-P

[Rann]

45. puss puss

fina flickor beter sig inte på det viset



BUT I DO


:)

[palme]

57. Da burde du holde deg unna meg :-) Jeg er en farlig gutt :-)

Hej,

Palme.

[bobbieinok]

41. I've been interested in the EU for some time

what really bothers me is that it seems that it is not democratic at all, that all decisions are made by faceless bureacrats at the top

and aren't the strong unions in countries like Germany constantly weakened by central EU decisions?

the idea sounds pretty good, especially after 2000 as a necessary counterweight to bushco.....but the reality sounds more and more like a few national power/corporate/wealthy elites running the whole thing with little concern for the average person

it looks like the average person has less power in the EU to affect decisions than s/he does in the US, which is really scary

[palme]

44. You make my points for me exactly... To clarify my position, I want

the EU, but is has to change a lot. Hopefully that change will start with the constition being rejected in a few countries.

Hej,

Palme.

[applegrove]

48. Time that Europe had a big say in the world again. I mean now

that they got rid of the robbing of poor countries and are into democracy (just like right wing USA)... good that they have some say. You know - sober second thought and all.

[palme]

51. You are gonna rephrase that into legible English, so a foreign person

can understand what you are saying :-)

Hej,

Palme.

[kentuck]

54. Very interesting perspective, palme....

I have wondered about that. So, at first you were against the EU because you were concerned about the corporatist tyrants? Now, many on the left wan to join the EU in order to oppose George W Bush? One thing about Bush, he is very good at "divide and conquer"...

[palme]

62. Yes, he is....But, I surely hope he is not going to last forever....

You guys need to get your act together and reclaim power...

BTW: I have to appologize:

Karl Rove and John Ashcroft are both Norskie-Americans.

I am glad they left though :-)

Hej,

Palme.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

58. Agreed

Just one step closer to one world currency and one world government.

[Iterate]

63. I have the greatest hopes for the EU

I know it may be favored by large corporations, but it's also the only way that individuals and small counties can defend themselves against such large powers.

The EU model for democracy and spreading peace and prosperity is so much more viable than the predatory capitalism/militarization that now rules the US.

Europe seems to know that democracy arises from an educated, healthy, secure citizens. No country is its repository.

Europe has also learned some very hard lessons, from centuries of bloodshed, about the dangers of religious zealotry. Somehow this lesson has been missed in the US (and elsewhere).

I feel the EU will be critical for the survival of the progressives in the US. You all need to know you are not alone. We need to work together.

I'm a US expat and never felt comfortable with life in the US. I will never live there again if can help it. I feel at home here like never before.

[DemExpat]

67. Love your post, Mainz....

:loveya:

DemEx

[Iterate]

68. thx

and I'm starting to recognized a few names around here, yours among them. It's tough being here and seeing/hearing what's going on in the states. Not sure whether to stay here and fight or go back there and fight.

Hell, I don't even like to fight. I much prefer a fine wine and some converstion in the back garden...with some sunshine.

[DemocracyInaction]

65. I think it will beat our fucking asses off and we can't do anything about

it. Frigtening isn't it to a nation who thinks if you build more bombs you can be NUMBER 1 fovever and ever?? You are going to die and soon. You will die the worst death possible. It won't be by a terribe terrorist attack that kills you (take note bin Laden, you really don't have to go out of your way to bring this idiot country down). You will be a peon. You will be in the street with your family looking for a box to live in. You will look up to France, Germany and the like as a place you wished you live----they have so many programs that protect the common man. We worshipped the rich and greedy and they will DO NOTHING FOR YOU, MORON. We already are in a godawful trade deficit, ect. We don't have long. They will be a power and so will China. We will be a third world country and it should be sweet to watch how the people and the right wing Christians literally hunt and kill each other. We are gone...and accept that you can't do anything about it. Sucker.

[Taxloss]

70. The European Union is wonderful.

As a British citizen - and a campaigner for UK-ESC entry and EU-Con ratification - I could not love it more. It will ultimately help Amercia, too, when it achieves its destiny.

[mvd]

71. Locking

The member who started this topic has been banned.

DU Moderator