25 year old MONSTER has sex with 15 and 16 year olds!

[LilKim]

A 25-year-old Cupertino high school choir teacher pleaded guilty Friday to having sex with three of his students.

Brett Michael Bartlett, a Campbell resident who taught at Homestead High for the past three years, admitted in court that he had sexual relationships with two 16-year-old girls and one 15-year-old girl over a six-month period, said Rob Baker, a deputy district attorney for Santa Clara County.

He pleaded guilty to three felony counts of statutory rape, one felony count of oral copulation with a minor and one misdemeanor count of possession of child pornography. Bartlett had a videotape recording of a sexual encounter with one of the girls, Baker said.

"This is a very serious case because of the violation of the public trust of the community that occurred," Baker said. "I've never seen a case with a teacher having sex with so many students in such a small period of time."

Bartlett faces up to six years in prison when he is sentenced on May 12.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/03/12/BABADIGEST3.DTL

[CalebHayes]

1. Um, I'm 14 and I can tell this type thing happens ALL of the time

It's only a big deal when it's a teacher though. Thats the only time anyone pays attention.

16 and 17 year old girls are have sexual relationships with guys in their 20s all the time. If this is a shock to you, sorry to burst your bubble. It's just that I don't know why this is getting all the publicity. It happens ALL THE TIME.

[NMDemDist2]

2. agreed, grad students were a feather in my cap at 16

edit to add, i was 16 in 1971

[verdalaven]

56. I loved taking my 23 yr old

boyfriend to school functions...:) He was very hot and my friends were envious! (16 in 1979)

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. It's getting publicity because

it's become a national pastime to blast teachers. This time last year, we were terrorists. Now we are rapists and pedophiles.

[scottty]

10. No

It's getting national attention because some of these teachers are having sex with 13 year children. I could care less about the 17 year olds but please do not try to justify an adult (any adult) having sex with 13 year olds.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Not that it's okay

but people in other professions also have sex with 13 year old children. But we aren't hearing about them these days. Bashing teachers has become a trend.

[scottty]

14. It is the same reason

that we hear about priest doing it with children. We (the public) think that we should be able to trust priest, teachers, and sports coaches to be around our children and for things like this not to happen. I am Catholic and my priest shared a story with us one day in mass. The story goes like this; My priest and another priest were walking through our local town when they decided to sit down and talk. During there discussion they noticed that they were sitting next to a playground in the park and there were a bunch of children playing. He told us that he was so happy that he didn't wear his "collar" that day because he was sure that he would have receieved a few looks because he was a priest watching the children play. I trust my priest but a few priest have made all of them look bad. Now the same thing is happening to teachers. Tell the truth, don't most of us condem the priest and make fun of them? How many priest jokes have you heard? The reason why teachers and priest make the news more than anyone else when it come to this subject is that we expect more from them because he public trust them enough to leave our children unattended with them. They should be held to higher standard.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Oh I agree the standard should be higher

and I welcome that. But with NCLB failing as miserably as it is, and the RW willing to embrace any talking points they can think of to promote vouchers, they are pouncing on every bad teacher story they can find. I honestly believe there is no increase in the number of teachers having sex with students, but it is just more popular to talk about it these days. Unfortunately, teachers have been having sex with students for a long time now. It isn't just a fad that sprang up recently.

I think the pedophile priest issue is a bit different in that the church has been found to cover up and protect many of these priests. That - the cover up - makes it the scandal it has become.

BTW, I was raised Catholic and my favorite uncle is a priest. I want to cry every time I hear of another priest who is accused.

[Djinn]

42. agree

just like the murder and sexual assault and child molestation rate hasn't really gone up over the last 25 years - people THINK there's a rapist around every corner because now instead of going home showering, and pretending it never happened, people press charges and it's all over the news. I think we can thank Mary Kay Le Torneau in part for making "teacher sleeps with student" headline news over and above "thousands killed in Iraq"

[Dorian Gray]

33. Agree, Scotty. Good points. :) NT

[Dorian Gray]

32. But teachers

are in a position of responsibility, having daily contact with those 13 year old children. Heck, I was a teacher for a number of years, and I don't like that the world thinks little of us. But, if a teacher is going to abuse his or her position by having sex with one of his or her students, then they deserve all the criticism that they are going to get. Not only are they acting illegally by having sex with a minor, but they are abusing their position of trust that they have in their school and their community. (Much like priests did.)

An accountant having a relationship with a 13 year old may be immoral and illegal, but he/she is not in a position of authority ALL DAY over that child, either. And they are not in a position of trust.

It's a big deal.

[verdalaven]

52. People in "other professions"

don't work with children 8 or more hours a day, five days a week.

I haven't noticed teacher bashing in the media. I think the media does hone in on caregivers that hurt their charges, simply because sensational stories sell. That's the news biz.

As a parent, though, I do expect the teachers in my daughter's HS to keep their hands off her, even if she is willing and flirty. An adult man or woman in a position of authority, working in the school system, really should know better than to have sex with students.

[bloodyjack]

28. Pedophile witchhunt n/t

[GraysonDave]

5. Older guys should know better

The very reason it's a crime is that young kids don't have the maturity to know it's improper. It may happen ALL THE TIME, but that doesn't mean it's right.

[CalebHayes]

6. I said it happens all the time. I didn't say it was right.

The point I'm trying to make is that, if you want to do something about it go right ahead but it's a much bigger problem than just teachers. People seem to think that it's just the teachers and that they the are messed up pedophiles.

Unless your in high school these days, you have no clue how often things like this happen, it's just not usually with teachers.

[Djinn]

40. Not just "these" days

every generation thinks they invented sex - I'm 15 years older than you and people were screwing I was at school, my sister is ten years older than me and it happened then - my folks are in their 60's, it happened then (just ask my mother how pregnant she was at her wedding!) and before my grandmother passed away a year or so ago she told me all about HER wild youth.

People just talk about it more now.

[CalebHayes]

51. What give me this inclination that people think it isn't happening is...

that when they do hear about it they act so shocked. Their jaws just drop in horror. As if they never had any clue.

[regnaD kciN]

73. As Newsweek (I think) once said about us baby-boomers...

...we're the generation that did everything, regrets nothing, and doesn't want our kids to even think about trying any of it.

:eyes:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. If anyone else does any genealogy work, you would be surprised....

...at the number of 13-year-old girls that started families back in the 18th and 19th centuries.

[hfojvt]

88. Actually I recently discovered that the age of consent is 16

here in Kansas. I have said it before, but check the 1880 census of the US and you can find 18 and 17 year old girls who were already married and mothers. It was fairly common and not at all criminal, although I imagine that some parents got upset. But some parents get upset when their girls marry at age 21 too. ("My daddy said 'you wasn't worth a lick, when it came to brains you got the short end of the stick ..'" Trisha Yearwood "She's in love with the boy")

[HeeBGBz]

43. I was 15 in 1970.

I had sex with more guys than I'd care to admit in my high school years and most were over 21. I never had a "normal" date when I was in high school. After a point, I was the aggressor. Doesn't mean I knew what I was doing. Too bad none of those "conquests" had the balls to say "No. You're too young"

[Djinn]

39. that's a bit of a generalisation

I agree that in cases like this (and in the cases of priests or Dr's) there is an inbalance of "power" that can often be manipulative and exploitative, it's NOT always the case. Plenty of teenagers (don't think I'd call a 15/16 year old a young kid) can and DO have the maturity to engage in sexual relationships and they aren't all scarred for life because of it.

[livinginphotographs]

9. You're right....

Teachers make better press though.

[jmm]

13. This is wrong for the same reason

it's wrong for a patient to have sex with their doctor or psychologist. Even in college when I had a TA hit on me it felt weird despite the fact he was only three years older. Regardless of age a person in a position of power like that should know better.

Having said that I don't agree with all this publicity this type of thing has been getting. Just like I don't agree with all the press given to Michael Jackson, Scott Peterson, etc.

[verdalaven]

53. The very reason it is a big deal

is because he was a teacher in a position of authority and the girls were his students. What he did was unethical to the extreme and whether or not the girls were consenting, it was also illegal.

[FreedomAngel82]

63. The problem is

that this is a teacher. Someone who people are trusting. Why didn't the girls tell anything though?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tansy_Gold]

7. Does bestiality count?

http://www.westvalleyview.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=16855&TM=76268.95

Douglas Robert Burns faces two counts of animal cruelty stemming from the January 2004 discovery of photographs that showed the 51-year-old man performing sexual acts on his dogs.

. . .

Detectives from the sheriff’s Animal Cruelty Investigative Unit then searched Burns’ house, where they found more pictures of him performing oral sex on a male dog and engaging in intercourse with a female dog.

In a statement issued shortly after Burns’ arrest, Sheriff Joe Arpaio said, “This case puts a whole different spin on being a dog lover.”

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. Everyone should email that article to Man-on-Dog Santorum's office

;-)

[Tansy_Gold]

11. Only if

it would make Santorum's head explode.

[SF Bay Area Dem]

15. Yuch!

I am sorry but that is disgusting... the guy must be a despo...

[psychopomp]

18. Yeah, and who took the pictures?

Either somebody else is just as sick or that guy went through a lot of trouble to get those pics...

[Tansy_Gold]

27. According to the article, his wife took the pictures.

n/t

[AgadorSparticus]

61. Unbelievable. These people need to go to jail. I'd like to see this

guy be someone's bitch. I am having an increasingly difficult time wrapping my brain around some of the things I'm hearing these days. ugh.

[Djinn]

65. so you think being raped is a good punishment for rapists??

"These people need to go to jail. I'd like to see this guy be someone's bitch."

This came up in another thread a while back and I've gotta say the amount of people who think it's OK that some people get raped as punishment for their crimes once in jail is really disapointing

[Randi_Listener]

17. It a goddamn double standard.

Flip the script and make it a femail 25 year old teacher fucking 15 year old boys and no one gives 3 shits about it.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Yes it is

Flip the script (as you say) and we gets slews of posts talking about how this is "so cool" and "what a fantasy come to life!" It would be even worse if this had been male students...oh, the outrage! Just shows how screwed up our culture in this country really is!

[Randi_Listener]

23. No one wants to enforce the fucking laws equally.

That's the basis of the motehrfucking Constitution.

[girl gone mad]

26. I don't agree.

There was well-publicized case of a female teacher who went to jail for many years for many years for sleeping with one of her teenage students.

The media covered it along the lines of that she had ruined his life and she was a sick predator.

I think it would make sense to be more critical of the older male seducing the underage female, though. These girls can end up pregnant, and 99% of the time, the father will not stick around to support the baby. The girl's life will be permanently changed. Also, the risk of STD transmission is much greater from males to females. In addition, many young women have messed up ideas about sex and love.

[Randi_Listener]

29. What you just stated is still a fucking double standard.

Being more critical of the male indicates a shit double standard. Equal treatment is the motherfucking order of the day.

[hfojvt]

92. Double standards are fairly commonplace

and not necessarily worth an expletive, not to mention a level 6 expletive. Having been a 14 year old boy, I think the idea of calling a 14 year old boy who gets laid a "victim" is a mother-effing misuse of the term. The double standard makes sense because there is a difference in the desire for sex between a 14 year old boy and a 14 year old girl. Or maybe that is just a stereotype. It is not like I have seen a survey of 14 year old girls on the topic. Still if the stereotypes were not true, wouldn't 14 year old boys have an easier time of it? Maybe they do except for certain groups to which I happen to sadly belong.
Also, I very clearly remember that at age 14 I did not believe anyone had the right to tell me that I was too young to make my own decisions. They probably had the power, but I did not believe they had the right, and I still don't.

[dsc]

36. If you are talking about the case out of Washington

that isn't exactly what happened. At first she only got probation. It was only after she violated that probation by going back to having sex with the very same student, that she got jail time. Even then it was less than a decade.

[regnaD kciN]

77. Not true at all...

There was well-publicized case of a female teacher who went to jail for many years for many years for sleeping with one of her teenage students.

The media covered it along the lines of that she had ruined his life and she was a sick predator.

I live up in the area where this happened. When she first was charged, she got a relatvely light sentence -- far less than most people thought a male teacher who had had sex with a 13-year-old female student would have received.

She only got the book thrown at her after she had been paroled, with a no-contact order as part of the deal, and immediately got caught in flagrante delicto in a parked car with said student once again. Apparently, she had started having sex with him almost the day she got paroled -- with the express intent of conceiving another child right away. Then, she got sent back to prison for a substantial term -- but, even when she got out, the judge was quick to lift the perpetual no-contact order so they could get back together.

And, while some in the media pointed out the seriousness of her actions, the majority of the coverage almost took on the quality of harmless titillation, with the unspoken tone of "that really wasn't all that serious -- I bet the boy considers himself lucky." There was also a lot of coverage that romanticized the situation, of portraying it as a "Romeo and Juliet" story of innocent lovers thwarted by the unjust rules of an uncaring society.

Had it been a thirtysomething male teacher with a wife and kids who impregnated his 13-year-old paramour, I doubt the coverage would have been so "balanced." Indeed, I would predict that the same sort of rhetoric ("MONSTER") would have been directed at such an hypothetical male teacher as is being done in the initial post of this thread.

:eyes:

[Toucano]

30. "There's a double standard because there are two sexes"

That was Bill Maher's great contribution to the issue.

I wanted to ask how he would feel if a male teacher was having sex with a male student. Would that be okay? The gay student has the same hormones as the straight student, so isn't it just another "score"?

The "Real Time" discussion basically concluded that 15 year old boys want to have sex, so there's no harm. 15 year old girls don't want to have sex, so it's a crime. Talk about marginalizing female sexuality!

Many other countries tie the age of consent to the age of the partner. For instance, a 15 year old can consent to have sex with someone up to 21 years of age. If the partner is over 21, they're considered to be exploiting the minor. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.

[Randi_Listener]

31. It's time to apply the fucking laws equally.

There is too much bullshit when you split the motherfucking application of law between the sexes.

[ultraist]

58. Men commit 95% of rapes

And they are not charged and convicted often enough. LIFE sounds like a reasonable punishment for rape, maybe it will cut back on the number of rapes they commit.

Do you know that RARELY is a family member charged with statutory rape? If incest rapes were added to the stats, the numbers of women being raped would be even more staggering.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nforciblerape04.html

National Volume, Trends, and Rates
Marking the third consecutive year of increase, the UCR Program's estimate of female forcible rapes for 2002 was 95,136 offenses. This estimate was 4.7 percent higher than the 2001 approximation, and it was 2.1 percent higher than the offense estimate for 1998. However, the volume of forcible rapes in 2002 was 10.3 percent below the 1993 estimate. (See Table 1.)

[Djinn]

64. It's impossible to state that kind of stat with any certainty

while I'd agree they commit MOST the 95% is bullshit given the vast majority of rapes go unreported. If you're raped by a woman it's VERY VERY hard to get the cops/courts to take you seriously because of views like "it's always men that rape"

In cases of familial abuse I'm afraid female pepetrators are quite common.

Suggesting a life sentence for rape makes little sense - if a rapist knows the ONLY witness to his crime is his victim and that he's gonna get life anyway for rape - why not just kill her/him and greatly increase your chances of getting away with it - the rapist has nothing to loose in that situation.

Rape is an assault - the better society realises this, the less pain would be involved for victims - how many people feel wracked with guilt for years after being mugged, or punched in a brawl? not many but the "sexual" nature makes this a shameful thing to be a victim of - it's NOT sexual it's another form of assault. Suggesting life sentences (which means it would have a greater punishment than many murders) just reinfores that rape or sexual assault is the worst thing that can ever happen to you - it isn't, most people would prefer to LIVE through it.

[ultraist]

72. 90% of child sexual familial abusers are male, look it up

The facts are the facts. And yes, rape is an act of violence, not sex. I think most adults understand this.

When I worked at Child Protective services we rarely saw female child sexual abusers. It's not as common.

[Djinn]

75. You're missing a VERY obvious point

female rape/sexual assault is MASSIVELY underreported. Once upon a time (not too long ago) ALL incest was considered very rare - it wasn't but societal taboos made it underreported - just like now female rapists are a taboo topic and hence under reported.

if adults really DO understand that rape is an act of violence why suggest it's punished with a life sentence unless ALL acts of violence are?? because you think rape is worse right? why is that?

sorry but females DO commit sexual assault against children - I learnt that the hard way.

[ultraist]

78. male rape is MASSIVELY under reported

You are missing the point. MEN ARE MORE VIOLENT. This is not a about sex, it's about violence. Look it up. It is a well known FACT.

I didn't say females DON'T commit sexual abuse, but the FACTS and STATS on perps are the facts. Reasearchers can make valid predictions from studies, they don't rely SOLEY on reported rapes. Ever heard of statistics?

[Randi_Listener]

66. All rapes should be fucking prosecuted but it's still a shitty double....

...standard. The number that men fucking commit is not relevant to this goddamn discussion.

[regnaD kciN]

84. Let's apply truth-in-discussion principles to this...

The "Real Time" discussion basically concluded that 15 year old boys want to have sex, so there's no harm. 15 year old girls don't want to have sex, so it's a crime.

What it really means is that parents don't really care if their 15-year-old sons have sex, so there's no harm. They absolutely don't want their 15-year-old daughters "losing their purity," so it's a crime.

:eyes:

It's part of the unexamined social code from many millenia ago that has just hung on in the human subconscious. Although there may be good reasons for 15-year-olds to not have sex just yet, what the social code is based on is that daughters in a past agrarian society, whose only "value" to the family is the price they could fetch in an arranged marriage, would have much of that value wiped out if they weren't a virgin at the time of the wedding night. In fact, a girl who was known to not be a virgin would be likely to not find a taker at all, and be a financial burden on the patriarch for the rest of their lives. Obviously, not keeping your daughters locked up was a bad investment!

(One could note that, although young girls don't fetch a bride-price anymore, there is still a pragmatic basis for such a code. Few parents, already saddled with the cost of raising one or more teenage children, would want the extra expense and hassle of also raising the children of those children.)

However much we try to romanticize abstenince by speaking of "purity," or making first-time sex out to be an almost-mystical event that must be saved for the proper time (i.e. after he says "I do"), the fact is that much of the sexual code is really based upon cold hard business sense from a prior time.

[Skittles]

48. oh yes they do

they get arrested for it

[infusionman]

19. When I was 13...

I was seduced by a sixteen year old girl.

You should have seen the look on my face as I realized "I was really doing it!"

[Gyre]

20. "Bartlett faces up to six years in prison when he is sentenced on May 12."

That SOB is prison-bound where he'll get to have all the sex he wanted. Only this time somebody named Bubba will to taking HIM to choir practice. Tsk, tsk..

Gyre

[paineinthearse]

22. Is this the same town that a couple weeks back...

...was in the news because the superintendant prohibited the teaching of the Constitution?

Or was that Sunnyvale?

[mark414]

71. same town...

my friends live 2 blocks away from this high school!

[tinrobot]

24. In high school, my girlfriend dumped me for a teacher

This was in the 70's. He was married, in his 30's, probably.

He also wasn't the only teacher doing after hours 'instruction' with the students at my school. One of them ultimately became the principal of the high school.

[Withywindle]

25. Sorry to hear that! In my school, a 15-year-old got knocked up...

...by a teacher.

They were GOING to fire him, but they didn't. Know why? Cause he "did the right thing." That's right, he "made an honest woman of her." With her parents' permission of course, perfectly legal. :wow:

This was in the mid-80s. Last I heard they were still together.

[scottty]

34. He should have

gone to jail.

[Withywindle]

46. Yeah, probably. But

On the other hand, he was able to support his child. Not like she could've done it by herself. And she certainly didn't feel that she'd been raped or exploited. She had all that dippy teen-girl romanticism about it (she was happy about the baby too). "He loves me" and all that. It seems that in this case, he really did.

I'm more in favor of looking at these things on a case-by-case basis. I think in areas of relationships there's a great big gray area lots of times.

[MrSlayer]

35. Terrible. Lock him up and throw away the key.

Preying on impressionable young girls like this is a heinous crime.

[Djinn]

38. teachers shouldn't sleep with students

doctors shouldn't sleep with patients, priests shouldn't sleep with parishioners, bosses shouldn't sleep with employees....BUT to pretend it's ALWAYS a case of the adult (or person in position of trust/power) being a vile predator is to ignore the many shades of grey.

While this case involves 3 girls and as a result of that you can probably infer the teacher was looking for it, I don't think I could assume the worst EVERY time a minor has sex with an adult - I know what I was like as a 15/16 girl.

[ultraist]

44. It's ok if the prey are young girls. But if young boys get preyed on...

that's a horrific crime.

[Djinn]

67. who are you talking to

I think you'll actually find though in cases like THIS one (teenagers as opposed to children) when the "victim" (not saying these situations aren't EVER exploitative just that they're not always) is male the reaction is generally "whoa man way to go" or "you lucky bastard" - when the victim is a female the usual garbage that we have internalised as a society comes to the fore - ie women are not the aggressors in any sexual situation and they can't ever make up their own minds or have sexual desires - and people INSTANTLY assume the instance was one of a greater level of coercion.

I'm really not sure what point you're making or why you're directing it at me?

[NVMojo]

37. I must be getting jaded ...the other poster is right, this happens all the

time and this seems like your typical cop witch hunt as if they have nothing else to do in that city. Like I said, I must be getting jaded.

[ultraist]

41. It is statutory rape for an adult to have sex w/a minor

But, more often than not, it's older men with younger women so it often goes unnoticed or no charges are made. There is a lot of built in sexism in our judicial system.

I agree with the statement that someone who has authority over that child, is abusing their power, in addition to violating the rape laws.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. And this is the angle the KS AG is using

to justify prying in to private medical records, that he is looking for evidence of child rape.

[ultraist]

57. whatever, it's the law.

Adults should not have sex with minors. There is a big power differential there.

It's pathetic if an adult cannot find another adult to have sex with and has to manipulate some young girl. What a sick fuck. Having sex with children is demented.

I wonder if this guy used a condom or is possibly spreading AIDS to these young girls or getting them pregnant.

I really don't give a fuck how some fundie is abusing this law with regard to this situation. It wont get overturned and it shouldn't.

I would press charges if some 25 year old man, had sex or tried to have sex with my daughter TEN YEARS YOUNGER than him.

[Djinn]

69. Part of that bias

includes some myths you see to hold onto yourself (I apologise if I've read you wrong on this) particularly

(a)woman do not rape or committ sexual assault (making it almost impossible to actually get a conviction)

(b)women (particularly young ones) NEVER initiate sexual relationships with older people

In almost ALL countries in the west the age of consent is higher for girls than for boys? why is that - could it be the bias society has that says men can not be victims of exploitation or assault? and that women must be protected. Personally I didn't need the archaic laws in my country to tell me when I was ready to be sexually active.

There are two very seperate issues here - the abuse of a relationship of trust in order to pursue a sexual relationship and the SEPERATE issue of the age of consent/sex between minors and adults. The first is wrong the second NOT ALWAYS SO.

You state it's demented for an adult to have sex with a child and on the face of it that's a statement most people would 100% agree with but the definition of child in some states is 17 - if a 17 year old sleeps with a 19 year old in those states it's AUTOMATICALLY stat rape and the 19 year old can end up on a sex offenders register next to people who rape 3 year olds - do you honestly agree with that. Do you really think it's always that black and white?

While I was still technically a virgin at 17 I did have a sexual relationship with a 27 year old - and I ABSOLUTELY did the initiating.

[ultraist]

82. Wrong again, I worked with sexually abused girls.

I don't have those "myths" you claim. I'm fairly well educated on the subject. I majored in Social work, interned with abused women and children, took rape seminars, domestic violence courses and worked at Child Protective Services. I have a good grasp on child maltreatment including sexual offenses.

There is a "grooming" period that molestors use so the rape is not also direct physical force. I think you need to read more reputable research and studies on this subject. You seem really misguided.

[Skittles]

50. teachers srewing kids is a gross abuse of power

I don't give a shit if it "happens all the time" - it's not right

[stillcool]

47. What is missing from this picture?

Maybe some education, a little self-esteem, some other type of after-school programs? Boy could i blow over this! It is very obvious why young girls are attracted to older men and authority figures, who pay some attention to them. Lets just keep fixing all these symptoms and never ever address the problem. Its working so well.....

[PowerToThePeople]

49. "Friends" line

Joey: Sadly my wife has not been born yet.
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/joey/season1/joey-115.htm

Hehe, just wait 'till they are 18 sickos....

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

59. "age barrier crap is bullshit?" WTF?

Have sex with an adult. Having sex with minors is sick dude. Get a clue.

We should PROTECT our children from predators. You obviously don't have a daughter.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

76. Suppressing natural tendencies?

Back up your claim that 15 year old girls wanting to have sex with older men is a "natural tendency" with something other than anecdotal BS.

I was a 15 year old girl once and my friends and I wanted to have sex with other 15 and 16 year olds. Most teens want to be around their peers. We did. That's what is natural. I haven't said that 15 year olds shouldn't have sex. I said STATUTORY RAPE is sick.

Young girls having sex with older men is NOW illegal. NOW that misogynistic lawmakers don't TOTALLY have their way, and women and children are NO LONGER the property of men.

Let's just open the door for rapists to cry "consensual sex" when he is 15 years older than the young girl victim. That would be fucking brilliant. Women endure enough violence from men in this society, get a fucking clue. Read some REAL numbers and research.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

90. Are you totally unaware of how misogynist those early cultures were?

BIG GAP in your post there dude. It was LEGAL to rape and KILL women during those times. Women were the PROPERTY of men. Women couldn't even vote until 1920!

Maybe you will get a better education in college and learn that your limited high school experiences are not the facts of the world.

[KingoftheJungle]

91. HELLO: We are talking about high school girls,

which makes my experiences with them IN HIGH SCHOOL really the only relevant angle of the discussion. BTW, those early cultures were certainly misogynist, but civilization didn't collapse as a result nor did every single woman in those cultures grow up to become severe trauma victims or psychopaths.

Teenagers can make certain decisions for themselves, and rather than brainwashing everyone into thinking that these things are sick and evil what we SHOULD be doing is teaching them the responsibilities associated with this behavior to prevent as much harm as possible.

[The Magistrate]

94. In Your Historical References, Sir, You Ignore Some Salient Points

First, life expectancies were far shorter; very few people lived past fifty, many did not reach thirty.

Second, and following from the first, pesons were considered socially adult at those early ages. A thirteen year old became a man or woman in some ceremony, and was treated in all ways as any other grown person, as we view people in their twenties today.

[KingoftheJungle]

97. All your points do is reinforce my argument

This is PRECISELY what I am talking about. The assumptions behind statutory rape laws, etc. is that there is some biologically-based age by which sexually mature people are "emotionally mature" enough to actually HAVE sex. What these cultures prove is that "emotional maturity" and proper responsibility can be taught to teens so long as it is expected of them and reinforced by the culture. If we can just start the education early on and reinforce their responsibility for themselves, they will be better prepared for it all and we wont have to NEEDLESSLY criminalize it and perpetuate the meme that "underage" sex is evil (the only real underage sex that exists is that of pre-pubescent children, which is certainly evil) and that the sole responsibility of such a relationship rests solely on the adult (who may or may not have even initiated the advances).

[The Magistrate]

99. Do You Think So, Sir?

The societies involved differed greatly from ours today. Harm done was redressed by private vengeance in blood; persons were owned as chattel property, and that at any age; a person who had been more than a day's walk from their birthplace was uncommon, and ine who could reaf less common still. How many of these items would you like to see determining our social mores today?

[Withywindle]

87. Well...

I'm not necessarily agreeing with other things this poster said, but my own anecdotal evidence was that when I was a 15/16-year-old girl, I definitely preferred older men. I preferred older people as friends generally too. No question, not even close! They just seemed so much more intelligent and more likely to be into the same books and music and stuff I was into. So yeah, it does in fact happen that girls (and boys) do seek out these relationships quite actively. I certainly did! Whether the older person should know better and run FAR away, I cannot dispute that.

[Djinn]

74. Stop looking at it as if this is always a case involving CHILDREN

people in their late teens (not referencing OP just this topic in general) are not CHILDREN. They can legally work, pay tax, sign on for military service but not screw???

It has NOTHING to do with having a daughter or not (why are you so adamant that boys aren't raped/exploited) but of having the ability to see shades of grey.

A 17 year old sleeping with a 19 is statutory rape in many places - that is just a ridiculous application of the law.

[ultraist]

79. You guys sound hard up for dates, sheeesh

Can't find someone your own age?

Grown adult men should not be having sex with young girls. Do you understand the power differential concept?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. I don't think that is as outrageous as you're making it to be.

I have a teenaged son, and it seems that 15 and 16 year old girls are quite eager to enter into sexual relationships, much to my chagrine. Protection, protection, protection.......

When I was in 9th grade I had a teacher that was totally smitten with me (in his 20s). He never acted on it. Yet it never crossed my mind that it was inappropriate. He was in the Reserves with my brother-in-law, and I was used to being around older people all the time being the "baby" in the family. Reflecting back, I remember that it gave me a feeling of power knowing that he had a crush on me.

Then I was 15/16 I was totally infatuated with one of my brother's friends, he was 22 at the time, and if he wanted to persue a relationship with me, he would have had me in a second.

Also, a friend of mine in high school was having an affair with a substitute teacher (he was 22) and she was 17 -not a huge age gap, and a few of us were a bit jealous as he was the school's heartthrob. I met her years later, and there was no trauma.

Personally, I don't think it's appropriate what this teacher did, and it was sleezy for him to tape one of the encounters, but then you don't know the total circumstances, and if the girls, like me back when, didn't think there was anything wrong with it, he might not be quite the monster that you are screaming about him being.

[Withywindle]

68. My feelings on the matter are very close to yours...

I am not a parent and so don't know how parents feel about this, but I do have memories of being a teenage girl and so...yes, I was sexually active in my teens, yes, with older men (NOT teachers -- that is a BIG problem for professional ethics reasons); yes, I was the initiator/aggressor and they were totally like, "UM...wow, are you SURE?" It wasn't promiscuity -- these were relationships that are what passes for long term for a teenager (one about 6 months, another a little over a year) and sex was never the primary focus of the relationship anyway.

But sex happened, at 15, 16, 17. In both cases we were both absolutely militant about protection--AIDS awareness was just starting to leak out of the gay community to straight people (which I thought I was at the time), and I was so totally paranoid about pregnancy I always doubled up on methods. Do I feel abused/exploited/traumatized/regretful? Not one little bit. I haven't seen these guys in years, but I enjoyed the time we had and I wish them all the best.

I wouldn't, y'know, recommend it. But I can't quite muster up the right level of PC horror over it.

With the example of your 17-year-old friend, it's the teacher thing that bothers me, not the ages. Actually (gulp) I was involved with a 17-year-old guy for a little while when I was 21. But we were both just students at the same college (he started a year early, as did I), and we never thought about the age thing very much 'cause there was no pressing reason to think about it really.

[regnaD kciN]

70. There are TWO issues here...

...one is age and the other is power relationships.

As to the age of the "victims," two of them are 16 -- in most states of this country, they would be considered "legal." (I'm somewhat more uneasy about the 15-year-old.) But the difference between the teacher and the 16-year-olds was only nine years. In other words, one more than the age difference between my wife and myself.

The other issue, though, is power. There's a reason why most schools, colleges, etc., have regulations against teacher-student relationships, even when both are over 18 and there may only be a couple of years age differnce between them. It's the same reason that there are rules against physicians and psychiatrists becoming sexually intimate with their patients. The possibility of the abuse of power in order to gain sexual favors is quite serious.

Of course, I guess I could claim that Mr. Bartlett's biggest problem is having been born male. Had he been a woman, and gotten involved with male students even younger than 15, he may have had to pay a price in jail time (although probably less than he'll get in reality), but it would have been more that compensated for by the riches gained from becoming a media celebrity, writing an autobiography, and making a name for yourself by claiming that "the only thing I did wrong was love..."

:eyes:

[realisticphish]

80. BREAKING NEWS

55 year old man has sex with 45 year old woman!!!!!!!!


yes, i understand that maturity levels are different. yes, power, etc, etc. BUT. We should not go around pronouncing judgment on people like this without ALL the facts. Who initiated it? How mature are the minors? Because AGE is not the deciding factor of sexual maturity.

teenagers do not turn 18 and then suddenly grow taller, sprout genitalia, and become mature. i know many who are mature at 13, and many who are immature at 30.

in this case, yes, it WAS wrong, IMHO. people in charge of other people generally should not have romantic relations with their subordinates. but we need to be careful about applying the term "monster" to people.

again, I'm not saying that all adult/minor sex is initiated by the minor, or uncoerced, or "romantic." pedophiles exist. I'm just saying, look at it on a case-by-case basis

edited for spelling

[ultraist]

81. They are BOTH adults in your scenerio NOT one adult and one MINOR

MINORS do NOT have adult privileges and they are not as emotionally developed as adults, aside from the extremely immature adults.

[realisticphish]

83. do you KNOW that?

what research are you citing?

saying they don't have "adult" privelages is legal matter, not psychological. and i would like to see the research on emotional development and, more importantly, why 18 is a magical fairy number, that makes people adults

[ultraist]

86. Educate yourself on child development and child maltreatment

I've already taken numerous college colleges including graduate studies and I worked in the field. I'm not the one who lacks the info.

We use 18 because it's the law, but moral and brain development, including the last major synapse pruning of the brain coincides with this age generally. Haven't you ever heard of Kohlberg, Piaget, or Gulligans? Read up on some evolutionary psych or brain development.

[realisticphish]

89. see

i'm not saying that there is NOT a reason for "18." i just question the demonizing of these people. Should it be illegal? YES. Children get mistreated, and, as you say, brain development levels off at 18, so that's as good a place as any. all i'm saying is that i have a major concern (from a psychological standpoint) with the grey area, i.e., 15-18. the brain IS still developing, but what functions are and aren't fully developed? the body is sexually mature at, what, 14? (forgive me, i don't have the exact number, this is IIRC). I just would think that evolution would coincide the maturity to DEAL with sex with physical sexual maturity.

i'm just a sophomore psych student, so feel free to educate me on some of these issues, but knowing what i know, i have concerns with broad generalizations when the research on this area is incomplete

edit: damnit, why do i ALWAYS get into these things with people who know more than i do...or at least you SAY you do...;)

[KingoftheJungle]

93. Knowing more facts doesn't guaruntee having a clue

Ultraist isn't addressing the core issues here but is instead relying on cultural memes and facts that may or may not have any relevance to the issue at hand.

You raise excellent points, the most important of which is the fact that the age by which the brain ceases to mature isn't necessarily some magical milestone that makes a person able to take responsibility for themselves. Most adults in the world are completely irresponsible, in many different ways. Moreover, teenagers (even children) are capable of taking responsibility for themselves in many ways as well. Most are responsible enough to do homework, take tests, participate in team sports, etc. They understand the nature of cause-and-effect. As such, they are able to understand that sex can lead to pregnancy, disease, abuse, etc. They can make their own decisions regarding when having sex is right for them, and if it is made without their consent they know how to call 911 and file charges. Furthermore, if being "emotionally mature" (something I dont even believe exists but we'll pretend it does for the time being. What it really refers to is the point at which the brain stops growing) is a necessary prerequisite for healthy sex then WHY ON EARTH DO WE BECOME SEXUALLY MATURE AT LEAST 5 YEARS BEFORE THIS HAPPENS? Obviously, it has little relevance in the grand scheme of things and as such it should not be used as the arbitrary milestone by which these things are judged.

[ultraist]

95. No, I'm relying on neuro psych, child develpment psych, SW research

Numerous college courses including a year of graduate work, experience working at Child Protective services, taking numerous seminars, and cont'd education.

I'm not a couple years out of high school with no college dude. You seem to have no educational background in this area and are basing your posts on your high school experience.

Becoming sexually active does not justify minors having sex with adults ten years their senior. There is more to development than puberty dude.

[realisticphish]

96. your last point is my main concern

as you said, what IS emotional or sexual maturity, and why does it supposedly happen long after the body is ready for sex?

i am hesitant to suggest removing 18 as the age of consent, simply because i dont know what the alternative would be, and it opens up loopholes for pedophilia and molestation. i WOULD, however, really like to see research on this, perhaps eventually change legal policy

[ultraist]

98. Why do people go through puberty before they reach emotional maturity?

Puberty happens before brain development completes the childhood process.

Teens are very run by emotions and not as mature as their bodies are. There is agreement on this throughout the various schools of thought.

Consider that some 12 year old girls can get pregnant. Are they emotionally mature enough to be a mother?

I'm not suggesting that teens don't have sex. Some are ready to deal with it and others are not. But I think it is highly inappropriate for adults to have sex with minors.