Homosexuality&bible?s make me wonder, What is a "Christian"?

[uppityperson]

There have been a lot of questions and comments on DU recently about Jesus, Christianity, the bible, sexuality, etc which leads me to ask what you believe to call yourself a Christian.

I was raised a liberal Christian, trying to do as much good and little harm as possible, modeling my behaviour after what Jesus was said to be like, taking the bible as guding parables and stories to a good life. I have been called a Christian and have been told I am no Christian because I do not worship Jesus, but use him as a behavior model. I am telling you all this so you can understand a little of how I was raised and what I believe Christianity and religion is. I am happy believing as I do and do not want to discuss the rightness/wrongness of my beliefs. I'm trying to get an overall feeling of people on DU that might respond to this poll.

My question is, in order to call yourself a Christian, do YOU believe in worshipping Jesus as the son of God, saviour of us, died for our sins, or do YOU believe in patterning your life, actions and thoughts after Jesus as a good man? Combination of this is OK too.

Thank you. (edited to add Combination)

[Maple]

1. Christians are pacifist socialists

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other
also.

And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy
coat, let him have thy cloak also.

And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him
twain.

Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than
others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
*********


Jesus said nothing about either abortion or gays...but specifically forbade violence and money making.

Like I said...so called christians have never actually read the Bible

I have yet to meet an actual christian

[Name removed]

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[ultraist]

7. "Baby killers?" women who have abortions are "baby killers?"

[Shredr]

29. Scripture reference?

Do you have a scripture reference for those quotes?

Great quotes from the Bible, I'd love to know where they're from. Thanks.

[realisticphish]

2. the thing is

generally, i consider a christian a theist who follows the teachings of christ

because you can be an atheist and still live by his teachings :shrug:

[uppityperson]

14. That is what I believe too.

You can live by his teachings, whether you call yourself christian or not. Just because you live by his teachings doesn't mean you have to call yourself a christian though.

[cynatnite]

3. You know, I really don't know

I was taught my entire life a person can only be a christian if they accept Jesus into their hearts. All the good in the world doesn't mean a thing if they haven't done this one thing. It never made a lot of sense to me.

To me it's saying that god doesn't give a shit about any good a person who doesn't do that one thing.

I'm trying to remember if Jesus said that in order for a person who goes to heaven that we have to accept him into our hearts. Not his disciples, but him say it.

It always seemed to me there were a lot of other things he wanted us to do.

When I was a kid my mother told me something that's hung with me my entire life and she doesn't know that this is the number one reason why I don't know what a christian is. She said that if someone held a gun to my head and told her to renounce god or they will kill me, she wouldn't do it.

So, I have no idea what a christian is.

[Name removed]

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[Behind the Aegis]

11. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

This has to be one of the FUNNIEST things I have ever seen..."No women will make it to heaven! You have to become a man first."! Do you really believe that?! That is a scream!

[uppityperson]

15. This has been one of my problems since childhood

If you have never heard of Jesus, you go to hell, no matter how you have lived your life. If you "take Jesus into your heart", whatever that means and no matter how bad a person you have been, you go to heaven?

This is why I said I have been called a Christian and told I'm not a Christian, depending upon the speaker's idea of what a Christian is. It's a matter of labeling.

[noonwitch]

22. The closest thing I know of is from Revelation 3

The verse:

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock: If any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

At least, that's the verse the evangelicals always use when "witnessing" to potential converts.

In John 4, the Samaritan woman at the well asks Jesus where is the proper place to worship God, whether they have to go to Jerusalem to do so. Jesus tells her that God is spirit and must be worshipped in spirit, so it doesn't matter where that is done in the geographic sense. He has previously told Nicodemous (John 3) that one must be born again (born of the spirit). He states in several places that one must be like a little child to behold the Kingdom of God.

Most of the whole "being in christ makes me a new person" stuff comes from Paul, a very conflicted man who had a lot of issues-with Jews, with Romans, and most of all, with women. I don't think there is a single place where one verse, at least in the gospels, says that one must accept Jesus in to their heart as his personal savior in order to go to heaven. There is a lot of connecting of scriptures done by fundamentalists and evangelicals. They take Jesus words in John 3, connect it with the quote from Revelation 3, throw in the whole "names written in the blood of the lamb/book of life" stuff and the next thing you know, Jesus has gone from the guy who gave us the Sermon on the Mountain's teachings about how to treat your neighbors, how to pray in private, etc., to a bloodthirsty demon bent on vengenance against anyone who disagrees.

Paul's letter to the Romans is where much of this comes from. This is where the quotes like "All have fallen short", "The wages of sin is death", etc. come from.

[cynatnite]

23. Gospel of Thomas

Was doing some web surfing and came across this. It's one of the books that for some reason didn't make it into the bible. I was impressed with some of the things in it.

I often wonder why didn't this one make it in the bible.

Here is an interpretation of one verse:

"When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty."

http://www.gospelthomas.com/

[MountainLaurel]

26. If you wanna know why

It didn't make it into the bible, read Beyond Belief. Essentially, the answer has little to do with theology and everything to do with politics in the Holy Roman Empire.

[infusionman]

31. Being a christian...

Is no more than this.

Having a fundamental belief that you are a sinner and that Jesus died to pay for your sins. That Jesus wants to be in your life if you only believe in him.

When you die and stand before God on Judgment day, God is not gonna care if you were pro-choice, pro-life. He's not going to care what religious affiliation you belong too. He's gonna ask you this...

When I was hungry, did you feed me?

When I was thirsty did you give me something to drink?

When I was sick did you comfort me?

[mike_c]

4. rather limited poll-- is that intentional...?

I'm an atheist, and in particular-- owing to my personal history in a fundamentalist christian family in the deep south-- I have greater disdain for christianity than most other religions. There doesn't seem to be any category in your poll that fits me. Did you mean to limit participation to practicing christians? If so, I apologize for butting in....

[uppityperson]

13. The choices are limited on purpose, ok to answer if not "christian"

I didn't want to get into a larger argument of the merits of Christianity, which this could easily deteriorate into. You can answer the poll as to what you think it means to be a Christian, whether you are one or not. This is also why I prefaced this with a bit of my history, including being told I am/am not a Christian, depending on whether the speaker believes in choice 1 or choice 2.

[Tweed]

5. Live like Jesus, he never was one for braggin'

Why would he want everyone praising his name to the highest heaven and have people compete in holy contests?

[ultraist]

8. ummm.. because they are superior to Jews, Muslims, & all other religions?

And athiests?

[uppityperson]

17. sarcasm, or refering to fundamentalists?

[ultraist]

32. fundies

[uppityperson]

16. Exactly.

I am of the theory that Jesus (assuming there was a person by this name) would be appalled at being worshipped rather than people trying to live right.

[moggie]

10. Almost anything, it seems

On just about any issue you care to name -- abortion, homosexuality, war, the death penalty, feminism, capitalism, communism, tolerance etc etc, even the nature of God himself -- you can find people claiming to be Christian who hold diametrically opposed viewpoints. Now you say that you can be a Christian just by using Jesus as a "behavior model", which is probably true of most atheists too. So, to me, "Christian" is pretty much an empty term: if someone tells me that they are Christian, just about all I can deduce from this is that they are prone to accepting supernatural explanations.

[uppityperson]

18. This is my problem too

It seems that the term "Christian" has gotten such limited connotations recently into fundamentalism, blind unquestioning beliefs. I consider myself a Christian, but do not tell people this without explaining what I mean because it leads people to assume things inaccurately. This is why I asked this question, to see what others think and feel and do also.

[TriMetFan]

12. I went with a Combination.

To believe in worshiping Jesus as the son of God, Saviour of us and who also died for our sins you got to be able to also except his teachings, actions and you got to be willing to follow them. Just to do one and not do the other is just not enough.

just my .2

[uppityperson]

19. I am glad to have people follow Jesus teachings

and try to be good people. If you worship him, you need to do this too.

[uppityperson]

20. Thanks for participating and all the answers.

It is ok for people who don't call themselves Christian to answer also. The question is not "do you believe Christians worship Jesus or try to live like he did" but what does it mean to call yourself a Christian. Subtle difference. If that clears it up any. Thanks.

[AntiCoup2K4]

21. The word "Christian" means one who is like Christ

So a true Christian would live their lives by the teachings of Jesus Christ and treat others as He did. "What Would Jesus Do?" isn't a mere bumper sticker slogan to a true Christian, but a valid way of measuring a situation.

And in answer to the original poster's question:

My question is, in order to call yourself a Christian, do YOU believe in worshipping Jesus as the son of God, saviour of us, died for our sins, or do YOU believe in patterning your life, actions and thoughts after Jesus as a good man?

My answer is BOTH. For if you claim to worship Jesus but don't live by His teachings, then even Jesus Himself has condemned you as a liar and a hypocrite (Matthew 25).

On the other hand, if you live by His teachings but don't accept him as the Son of God, that's a contradiction within itself, because that WAS one of His teachings.

And I'm using "you" here as a generic pronoun. It's not my place to pass judgment individually.

In any event, someone who lived by all of Christ's teachings except one would still be better for this planet than someone who threw His name around, but didn't live by His teachings at all. That will get you through this life just great. What comes after that is between you and Him.

[salin]

24. The "only if you are saved" crowd who do not embrace

Jesus's teachings seem to have fallen into some wierd vortex where they have turned Jesus into an idol rather than a religious/spiritual leader. Some to the point of what almost seems like idolotry. It rather creeps me out. All about the selfish (I wanna go to heaven) but with no cost (I can be has hateful, decietful, theiving, etc. as I wanna be, and have no obligation to any other living beings), no sense of responsibility (eg trying to live as Jesus taught) - almost like stripping Jesus out of Jesus, but keeping the idol in place. As I said, it spiritually creeps me out.

[Beer Snob-50]

25. there has to be a combination

of the first two choices. you are worshipping jesus when you do as he did. i think the thing that screws up everyone's perception of god is religion. if we all just do as jesus suggested, love your neighbor mainly, we would be okay.

[uppityperson]

28. I highly respect Jesus, but don't worship him

That's the problem I get from some people. I respect Jesus and try to do as he said (or has been passed down as what he said, if there were a he, not to get into debating that), but do not worship the man. He may be son of god but I am a child of god too. I also respect and follow parts of Ghandi, Buddha, and others, but do not worship them either. It's the "worship" part that gets me in trouble, and causes some people to tell me I'm not a Christian, but I believe otherwise like you said in your last sentence.

[ProgressiveConn]

27. IMO the best definition of a christian is:

Someone who attempts to emulate the actions, and morality of Jeshua of Nazareth.

If someone fits this description I would consider them a christian. If they do not fit yet claim to be Christian. Such as those who quote the Old Testament in preference of the New; those who use the power of organized religion to their own benefit; those more concerned with preserving dogma and their personal interpretation; etc I would consider faux-Christians.

Personally: I can accept Jesus as a profit of God (even though I am a serious skeptic of the personified nature of the Christian God). I accept Jesus' message of compassion, tolerance, and love. I however try to put him into a historical context. I don't believe he was anything more than a regular human being who happened to be more 'enlightened' than 99% of people in the history of human kind.

If Jesus was alive today who would his disciples be? Those are your truest christians.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

30. Generally, personally, I consider a christian to be someone who

would believe in any bogus thing except logic and science, and has a mild neurosis, in some cases progressing to full psychosis. Well, you asked!

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

33. To be a Christian, you must receive Christ as Savior, and worship him.

That also means patterning your life after all His teachings (not just the RW-sounding ones). Faith is good, but faith without works is dead.