People expected to try to enter hospice to "rescue" Schiavo

[kskiska]

Schiavo in 48 hour window

Supporters like the Rev. Patrick Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition say they expect people to try to enter the Woodside Hospice to “rescue” Terri Schiavo if her feeding tube is removed. The Pinellas Park Police has officers stationed in the parking lot and inside the front doors of the hospice in case those threats are attempted.

more…
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=12564

[Bunny]

1. Oh my dear lord.

Honest to god.

[lonestarnot]

2. Yikes this could turn into a real dustup n/t

[Career Prole]

3. Weekend at Bernie's

That's all I have to say.

[Warpy]

13. Sadly, that may be true.

they're going to be in for a shock if they try to remove her from the facility before the cops get there. Her joints are so contracted and her muscles so atrophied that there is no way she can bear weight. They'll have to dump her onto a blanket and drag her out, or do a full body lift with multiple people. When they get her out, they're not going to have a clue how to deal with her care. It will be brutal if they take this tack, thinking she's just "asleep" and that gawd will awaken her miraculously when she's "rescued."

I think it's more likely to be an Operation Rescue sort of scene, with screaming hysterics rolling around on the floor in the halls, blocking access to her room, something which will end her feedings right there and then, tube or no tube. The cops will eventually come out and eject them, since they're a danger to themselves and other patients as they block the staff's access to all the rooms.

I just hope the media report this accurately in terms of disruption of the care of all the other patients (ha! I know). I would prefer that the nursing home concentrate on security, and go on lockdown, but if they don't, I also hope the cops make full use of tasers, pepper spray, and truncheons. It would be great to see their side get it for once.

[Career Prole]

17. If their side got it for once, *that* would get

all the 24/7 media exposure of Michael Jackson showing up for court buck nekkid.
The cable news producers are probably salivating like Pavlov's dogs at a bellringers' concert at the very thought of fundies getting thumped. :D

[datasuspect]

143. "probably salivating like Pavlov's dogs at a bellringers' concert "

i gotta say, i should have heard that before, but i haven't. you are the boss mack pimp today for including such a cool phrase in your post.

i thank you.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. This is just a freak show

This is just a freak show now. If you thought it wasn't before well now it surely is. Oy! They even passed a bill dealing with this last night in the House of Reps. Oy. Why don't they leave this up to the states?
I'm glad I'm not down there!!

[DRoseDARs]

4. Brilliant: She dies in the attempt, they're charged w/ manslaughter.

That'd be just swell.

[ComerPerro]

30. That would be great

[Baconfoot]

75. I wish they couldn't be charged with manslaughter. She's already dead. NT

[BOSSHOG]

5. And if they rescue her

will these fine upstanding christians provide for her for the rest of her "life?" Of course not. That is not their modus operandi. They are just starving for attention.

[DearAbby]

7. FLORIDA'S NEW FREAK SHOW...come one-come all!

Disgusting, they have made a sham of her memory. What a shame.

[amazona]

6. rescue her how?

She's dead, Jim.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[DRoseDARs]

9. W/ the magic healing powers of the Bible... for only 4 payments of $19.95.

Call now. Operators are standing by to relieve you of your money.

[Erika]

8. The using of Terri for their agenda is sickening

and they are planning on doing it to the very end. Then these wackos will probably figure out some way to use her even after her death.

Just absolutely repulsive.

[Modem Butterfly]

10. Why not storm her death bed? It worked to stop the FL recount

Rioting is what conservatives do in Florida when things aren't going their way. The heat makes them all crazy-like.

[Modem Butterfly]

11. Whoops ! Double-post! Ignore!

[LeighAnn]

12. Not merciful to starve a person to death

If it was a matter of unhooking machines, that would be one thing, but to deprive a human being of food and water until they die is sub-human. Unwanted dogs get better treatment.

[Modem Butterfly]

14. Blame it on the "life at any cost" crowd

They're the ones who are so opposed to death with dignity.

Besides, Terri doesn't have enough brain left to register pain.

[Maru Kitteh]

97. You're a medical doctor who has examined her and knows that for a fact?

A neurologist perhaps, are we? How do you KNOW she can't feel pain? Because you want it to be so? Whether or not the woman finally dies, this isn't the way it should be, and I don't really give a tick's tit who's fault it is.

[Bouncy Ball]

114. Veganistan

Brain scans show she is missing her cerebral cortex. That makes up most of your brain and ALL of the higher functions of the brain goes on there, including sensing stimulus (input). She can't feel any pain because the part of her brain that would be responsible for receiving the signals from her nerve endings and interpreting it as "PAIN!" ISN'T EVEN THERE!

It's like expecting a car to run with no engine.

[Binka]

144. But But But Fred Flinstone's Car Runs And He Has No Engine

Come on girl get with the show. These threads bring out freaks unworthy of the fucking GONG Show.

I don't know how you keep from kicking your monitor in BB. God love ya for trying to talk sense to these buffoons.

[Bouncy Ball]

145. LOL

I'm going crazy from having to repeat it all the time, but......I just keep doing it.

:hi:

[FM Arouet666]

128. Interesting argument.

Attack the poster for a lack of medical credentials. You can research it yourself, the CT scan clearly shows that this women has practically no cerebral cortex. She will never recover. Artificially keeping this women alive is pointless, a futile exercise.

Your right this is not the way it should be. Politicians passing emergency laws to save a severely brain injured person, the whole country involved in an end of life decision which should be a private matter for the husband and parents.

And yes, I AM a medical doctor, and have two patients this week which have suffered major strokes with no chance for recovery. If the government passes some asinine bill to mandate treatment, for lack of a written directive, it will be a pitiful day for the rights of patients and families. Both families opted for comfort measures only and both patients expired peacefully. Never saw it on the news and no special laws enacted.

[Ladyhawk]

104. I agree with you. There are fates worse than bodily death.

If I were terminal and in pain, I hope there would be a way I could end my life. My fundy family would prolong it at all costs, especially since I'm not "saved" anymore.

God, I have to get to that living will...

[Warpy]

15. I'd rather an injection of pentothal, too

but that is illegal for now. She will be sedated by hospice workers, who always err on the side of caution.

She won't die of starvation, but of dehydration. Her kidneys will shut down after 3 or 4 days, and the end will be fairly quick and peaceful.

I don't know if you've ever fasted or simply gone hungry. Fasting gives you a headache for 24 hours, and then there is no discomfort. Getting an inadequate amount of nutrition over a long period of time is what hurts, which is why so many deficiency diets fail.

Besides, she has no cerebral cortex. The structures that register and interpret pain are simply not there. All she has is cerebrospinal fluid where her brain used to be.

[ultraist]

19. It takes up to 7 days to dehydrate sometimes

I do agree, she will die from dehydration not starvation.

Do they realize their plan includes at least one felony: KIDNAPPING?

[LisaL]

20. Last time the feeding tube was removed, she lasted 7 days.

And obviously she still didn't die.

[bettyellen]

21. bodies break down and people deprive themselves of food-- because they

have stopped functioning.

feeding tubes can be torturous, i've seen it may times. strapped down to a bed 24/7 choaking on the liquid feed that repeats up constantly. no thank you. lots of people do not want to live like that.

[cookiebird]

55. Plain Dealer columnist on Schiavo

On Monday, one the the Cleveland Plain Dealer columnists had an article about this whole sad and sorry business: (http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/reallife/index.ssf?/base/living/1110796210287090.xml). Connie Schultz commented that one of the causes of Terri's condition today was that she was a bulimic, and
the night of her collapse, she was purging a large meal that she and husband Michael had eaten. He found her in the bathroom,unconscious,
and called the paramedics. "An electrolytes imbalance caused her heart to stop" and by the time help arrived, she had suffered the severe brain damage. The R-W groups trying to "champion" her
so-called "cause" never bother to comment on this.

[LisaL]

60. There is some confusion regarding what had happened to

her the night she collapsed.

[PopSixSquish]

70. And You Know this How?

Were you there?

[janx]

76. Urban/cyber myth and gossip, I suspect. n/t

[LisaL]

81. No.

Were you?

[PopSixSquish]

96. No, But I'm Not the One Making the Claim

Surely that question would have been settled in the malpractice case...So if there is "some confusion", I'd like to see a source.

[Bouncy Ball]

115. Yes, lizzy is apparently the Great Expert on this woman

even though she wasn't there that night, never knew her or any member of Terri's family personally, etc.

Don't bother with lizzy, she's got some kind of odd hate-on for Michael Schiavo.

[LisaL]

123. The same can be said for everybody here-

obviously, nobody was there that night, and most likely people who post don't know Terri personally. Why are you picking on me, I wonder, when the very same thing applies to you?

[cynatnite]

126. I disagree with you about Terri, Lizzy....

But apparently an opinion that doesn't go along with the majority means you're not 'one of them'.

I was under the odd illusion that this was an inclusive group, but Bouncy Ball has proven that exclusivity is the threat when you don't conform.

[Bouncy Ball]

146. I'm making no threats.

Why don't you go back and read everything lizzy has written on the Terri Schiavo case and get a good eyeful. She thinks that if a person can blink, they can't possibly be in a coma, she thinks Terri can re-grow 80% of her brain, she thinks Michael Schiavo beat her and that led to her problems, etc etc.

She has this really deep hatred/fear thing going on where Terri's husband is concerned and it's coloring all her responses.

Who said DUers have to agree on everything? I never did. We're DEBATING. Is there a problem with that? I've been quite patiently explaining to lizzy what the cerebral cortex is for for days in numerous posts and she hardly bothers to even read the information I give her.

[Bouncy Ball]

127. I'm not the one claiming to have some special secret

knowledge about the day she collapsed like YOU ARE.

YOU are the one who has acted totally hateful about Michael Schiavo from the very beginning, perfectly willing to just SHOVE him aside even though he's her husband.

People like you make me very fucking nervous. I TRUST my husband and WANT him to make decisions for me in case of my incapacitation, God forbid. People like you would let my mentally ill, alcoholic parents get mentally kidnapped by fundies and push aside my husband.

He's her HUSBAND. Sorry to break this to you, but she MARRIED him. He's her next of kin, not her parents. You apparently hate that, but it's the way things are set up in our society.

[ldf]

90. some confusion...

and just WHO is saying there was some confusion as to what happened that night?

was it the people involved? or was it someone with an agenda to push, who came along afterwards and started the rumor?

the doctors involved in this entire situation have given their opinions. just who could be more informed than they, to make the decision?

[ultraist]

133. I read an article in the Village Voice

Where a doctor was quoted saying that there were other injuries but it could not be proven it was the husband. It could have been from a car accident or fall before she met him. There was a big court case regarding this and how she was injured.

When we had kids come into Child Protective Services, an old broken bone that had healed could not be proven as child abuse. Same type of thing here.

Personally, there are things about the husband that raise red flags for me. BUT, the court ruled out abuse and allowed him to maintain the say over her medical care. I also have seen a lot of abusive husbands from the work I did and he reminds me a bit of them. But, we do not have all of the facts.

I do think it's very weird though that someone would let their spouse get so bulimic without doing an intervention. That sends a chill down my spine. NEVER ONCE did he seek treatment for her. I could not sit by and watch my spouse wither away and not do an intervention.

[karlrschneider]

24. So what is your preferred alternative?

Keep the poor woman hooked up to machinery for...10, 20, 5000 goddam years?

[LeighAnn]

25. What Would Kevorkian Do?

Send her home with the mom and dad that love her and want her to live, and let them deal with it. A civilized society doesn't starve its weakest members to death (or dehydrate them).

[Warpy]

26. Uh, she's DEAD, not weak.

[divineorder]

29. They can't.

Which is why Terri's there, hooked up to a feeding tube that has to be monitored day and night. Will they be able to have nurses and doctors there 24/7? To administer her feedings? To keep her sedated, change her bedpans, whatever? And if they did, what happens when it's clear she will never wake up? And just how old are her parents? What happens to Terri if one or both of them die before she does? The parents need to let go and grieve.

And who pays for it all? A medical system that begrudges even basic care for the poor and working class citizen who isn't covered at work, will they pay the millions it would take to feed Terri until something else like pneumonia takes her away years hence?

[LeighAnn]

41. Nothing Prof. Ulichne didn't do for years

When his mom was dying. Single Handedly. And he's no spring chicken!

[ultraist]

134. Keep her sedated? I thought her brain was 90% missing?

And only a portion remained that kept her vitals functioning? Why would someone who had essentially no brain need to be sedated?

IF she truly is that incapacited, she feels and knows NOTHING. She has no idea what is going on, thus she is not suffering any type of indignity, unless of course, you have some religious belief, like in souls, to base your argument, that she should be released.

Can she move or sit up? I doubt it.

[iconoclastNYC]

51. exactly...dehydration now or drowning later (pneumonia)

this case is just so disgusting.

[LisaL]

53. I presume there are hospitals or care facilities willing to take her in.

That's what the father says. The father and mother don't have to take her home, obviously they wouldn't be able to take care of her if they did. As for her parents being old, she has brother and sister that apparently are willing to take care of her if something happens to the parents.

[Modem Butterfly]

36. It's a question of what Terri would do

Terri didn't want to exist in this state of living death, parents or no.

[msanthrope]

46. Sure, LeighAnn, after all, she's just a pet--let's send her home

with a better owner and let's not take into account what might be best for Terri, or her wishes, at all. After all, what should be the prime consideration is how bad the Schindlers will FEEL when their daughter dies.

So let's send Terri home with them, so she can become the shrine to the right-to-life movement. Remember the pictures outside the Elian Gonzales house? Sightings of the Virgin MAry, next.

Why don't you read the case documents at www.abstractappeal.com ?
Read the part where her parents detailed that they would keep Terri alive, OVER HER WISHES. They would amputate her limbs, one by one, leaving a torso, if they had to. Read the report of the guardian ad-litem, Jay Wolfson, appointed by Jeb Bush's law, that agrees with the court.

[Bunny]

50. And also, after Terri was stricken, her husband and parents

attempted to care for her at home (the husband lived with the parents), but returned her to the nursing home after just three weeks because her level of care was so involved. Do these parents honestly think they can care for her at home?

[LisaL]

54. They are not planning to take her home.

I presume there are hospitals or rehabilitation facilities willing to take her in. The father was asked what would it cost the family to take care of her, and he said nothing, that everything would be taken care of.

[Bunny]

57. You are presuming a lot. Show me where he said they would

not take her home.


On edit - here is info from a blog I'm sure you'd approve of:

http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2005/01/why_wont_michae.php

Why Won’t Michael Schiavo Just Let Terri Go Home?
Press release from Terri's Fight:

Following a court hearing today before Judge George Greer in the Pinellas County FL Probate, Robert and Mary Schindler, parents of Terri Schiavo, made public a settlement offer that was proposed by their attorneys to attorneys for Michael Schiavo on October 26, 2004.

Although Mr. Schiavo's attorneys have verbally rejected their proposal, the Schindlers will continue to keep their offer on the table and remain hopeful that they will one day be allowed to bring their daughter home.


The settlement offfer (in pdf form) gives Michael everything in return for his agreement to allow the family to care for Terri at their own expense. Here are a few excerpts:

The Schindlers’ sole desire in making this proposal is that they be permitted to take their daughter and sister home to care for her with their family. The Schindler family members would take on this responsibility at their own expense. In consideration of your client permitting them to take Terri home with them, they would be willing to provide him with any legal guarantees he would desire, ...

[LisaL]

59. I am not exactly presuming. I heard her father say

it won't cost the family anything to take care of her. I presume when they say they will care of her at their own expense, perhaps they mean with donated money or something like that. Probably, a lot of people would donate money to her care. Also, the family keep saying they want to give her rehabilitative treatment. I assume they don't mean they would do it at home...

[bettyellen]

87. there is nothing there to rehabilitate.... jeeze why didn't these people

flock to texas for the baby? there was another lost cause they missed.

[Bouncy Ball]

119. You CANNOT treat what ISN'T THERE.

What is there to rehabilitate?

She has NO higher order functions. Which means if you PINCHED her arm, she wouldn't even feel it. She cannot form a thought. She cannot speak a WORD. She can't HEAR anything, can't process any visual or auditory information.

The parts of her brain necessary for all those things are GONE. Geez, how many times do I have to tell you this before it sinks in?

Can amputees just grow their legs back and start walking around?

[Bouncy Ball]

116. A civilized society also doesn't

keep a person with only 20% of their brain left alive for 15 damn years.

You can't treat what isn't there. She is like a car with no engine.

She can't sense anything. She has NO consciousness. Imagine that. Wait, you used the part of your brain she doesn't have anymore to do that.

[KharmaTrain]

28. Put A Dinner Tray In Front Of Her...

Sad how few people understand what happens when a human body shuts down and dies. One of the first things to go is the desire to eat or get nourishment. This is nature's way of doing its thing...and to fight it with a feeding tube that's prolonging her and her husband's agony.

I've had to face this situation...my mother was on a tube for the last years of her life. In the end, the tube was actually causing more harm than good...her body had shut down to such a degree that the stuff coming in the tube was iritating her stomache and causing discomfort.

As someone else posted...just put a tray of food in front of her and see if she eats. See if you even get any response.

It would be an absolute horror for these goons to go anywhere near that woman. This isn't sleeping beauty waiting for prince jesus to kiss her and ride off into the golden glow, this is a body and not much else. It's time people left her and her husband to close this prolonged agony in their lives.

[LisaL]

35. The judge already ruled anything like that can not be done.

Once the tube is removed, nobody can feed her orally.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KharmaTrain]

64. Have You Ever Seen A Person In A Coma?

On a feeding tube? Had to sign a DNR decree then decide on having that tube pulled. I did.

If you walked down that road, you'd see how naive you are...and it could happen.

In her state, she couldn't take anything orally...she can't chew or swallow. So this entire argument shows even further igornance.

Play your holier than thou with some one else.

Peace

[LisaL]

68. Why, yes, I have seen a person in a coma.

And not just any person. Someone I knew pretty well was in a coma. What exactly is your point, I don't get it? Are you saying that anybody who had seen a person in a coma would want Terri's tube removed? Well, obviously, it ain't so.

[KharmaTrain]

69. Mine Was My Mother

Thanks for all your insensitivity.

[LisaL]

83. I did not want to be insensitive, sorry.

The person I knew didn't make it either. He was completely brain dead and couldn't breathe on his own. Which is not the case with Terri.

[KharmaTrain]

89. You're Not There...You Can't See...You Don't Know

Your trusting words of zealots with an agenda that's destructive to all who face this difficult situation and going against the evidence presented by attending physicians, medical experts and the courts.

I'm against taking "the old people" and putting them out to pasture if they're no longer able to care for themselves or "they're gonna die anyway"...that's cruel and not the topic.

People avoid the legal side, and IMHO, the moral one...this is a woman whose braindead except for lower brain functions (look at the other strings, she has fluid where grey matter used to be)...if this had occured a century ago, she surely would have mercifully passed along right now...only medical technology.

From all I've read, there's no reason Michael Schaivo can't or isn't acting in her best interests while her parents have become stooges for bible-thumping hypocrites who want to decide what your morality should be.

Again, let nature do what it's will...preserving "life" that has no cognizent functions and will cease to exist if it's left to it's natural state, let it be.

In my mother's case, it took over a week from the time the tube was removed to her passing. She was so incapacitated at that time...virtually no movement except for her opening her eyes and a faint smile now and then...she had no real need it all.

If you really want an insight into this, I'd suggest speaking with someone who works with a hospice. These people were my "rocks" during my ordeal and they face these situations on a regular basis. Find out their opinions on this issue and how dangerous it is to the great work they do if religious zealots are allowed to define the way people are allowed to die...and to die with dignity.

Cheers!

[Bouncy Ball]

120. Terri is almost completely brain MISSING, not just brain DEAD.

[Bouncy Ball]

117. You DO realize, don't you, that someone

in her condition, if fed food by mouth, runs the very real danger of aspirating any fluids or food given by mouth into her LUNGS?

Then she either drowns or gets pneumonia.

:eyes:

But so glad you want people to shove food in the mouth of someone who can't even chew or swallow correctly.

[kskiska]

66. Ron Reagan said the same thing

He asked his r/w guest if she'd ever been at a deathbed (he had). He said that people at the end of their lives NEVER eat or drink. Ever. I've read where Ronald Reagan died of pneumonia after aspirating food taken by mouth.

[LisaL]

100. If he did say it, it doesn't make any sense.

People die from all kinds of reasons. To say that people at the end of their lives never eat or drink is absurd.

[Bouncy Ball]

121. Oh yeah, people dying from terminal diseases

always have SUCH an appetite.

:eyes:

/sarcasm off

[KharmaTrain]

147. Pnuemonia Is A Blessing...

It's known as the silent killer. When my mother developed the infection that would end her suffering, the doctors actually hoped that if it was an infection she couldn't fight, it would quickly become pneumonia and her suffering would end. That wasn't what happened in my case.

Humans attempt to think they're smarter than the natural world we live in. While medical advancements have advanced our welfare, we're still very much the products of our environment...fortunately there are medical professionals and hospice care workers who understand this fact and we have a better understanding of this very dark, very taboo, yet very natural topic.

Peace -

[mondo joe]

39. But this IS unhooking a machine

You have a problem with a feeding tube being disconnected but not a breathing machine?

[Ilsa]

40. Actually, endorphins are released and euphoria ensues

after a day or so of dehydration and starvation. Besides, T.S. is gone already. Has anyone determined that she experiences any pain whatsoever?

[LisaL]

44. Her parents say she does sometimes -and she is given Tylenol for the pain

when she does.

[Ilsa]

61. How do they know she is in pain? n/t

[bettyellen]

86. her parents co-create propaganda they know is edited to fool people.......

into thinking she reacts to stimuli.
her parents have been more dishonest, and admittedly more uncaring about teris wishes than her husband ever was.
and that is documented, not bullshit innuendo and rumours.

[Bouncy Ball]

122. ...

How sad. She's given Tylenol?

For what? She has no part of her brain left that receives information about pain!

Here's how it works. Say someone pinches your arm. The nerve endings there say "OUCH!" and they send that signal to the part of your cerebral cortex that is responsible for interpreting such signals. The cerebral cortex says "OUCH" and you say "OUCH" all within a blink of an eye.

SHE. DOESN'T. HAVE. A. CEREBRAL. CORTEX.

So explain to me how she's supposed to be interpreting pain?

[Bouncy Ball]

112. Dogs also get better treatment than to be

kept artificially alive LONG past when their entire brain and their entire consciousness is gone, too.

It would be considered CRUEL to keep a dog who only has 20% of his brain left on a feeding tube for years, but look! They do it to a human, no problem. And want her to stay on it like that for who knows how many more years.

She has NO consciousness, no thoughts, no emotions, no personality. She has no senses--she cannot hear, speak, think, touch, smell, taste, nothing.

She will not feel any hunger pangs. She CANNOT feel anything. She doesn't have any part of her brain that senses things such as that.

She will not suffer. She doesn't even have the brain power TO suffer.

What's cruel is keeping her barely alive with hardly any brain like they have.

[tammywammy]

16. I tiptoed over to Freeperville

and a lot of people were suggesting this exact thing. Do they not realize 1. how difficult it will be to take care of her (hence why she's not at home) and 2. that, um, you know they're not going to just welcome them in and let them take her away.

And who's going to take care of her anyways if they do get her out of there? They only want to use her to promote their "cause."

But then, rational thoughts don't occur to people thinking that way.

[ultraist]

18. I'd be very nervous if I were in that facility

I'm thinking about the abortion clinic bombings and shootings...those people are dangerous and freakin' nuts.

I've been in that facility before. It would be hard to secure it. There are several exits, every patient room has a ground floor window, there is a big yarded area around the building (except the front parking lot). sheeesh. If I worked there, I'd take a few days off.

[evolvenow]

22. send those people to iraq--over 121,504 killed and they did not state in

their wills, that they wanted to die.

[LisaL]

42. Well, neither did Terri. She didn't state anything of the sort

in her will.

[bettyellen]

88. her sister said she did, and her parents have testified THEY DON"T CARE

WHAT TERRI WANTED.
listen, you an continue to allow your parents to make decisions for you if you want. the rest of us are happy with the system that allows your spouse to do this.

[LisaL]

99. She had no living will. And her sister never said she did.

If you have a link for Terri's sister statement, why not provide it?

[bettyellen]

130. her parents testify that they don't care what Teri wanted, if anyone is

unfit it's them.
and you can dig up the court testimony yourself. it's horrid stuff.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Borgnine]

31. Holy shit.

And yet I'm sure this "pro-life" crowd consists of people who got boners at the thought of innocent Iraqis dying.

[mainer]

32. Let them take her home

Really. Let the right-to-lifers take care of all her needs into eternity. It would prove their devotion to their cause.

[Dorian Gray]

33. Okay...

I'm one of the few here who thinks that her parents are not evil. :) But, this is going too far.

I don't understand, if they are going to remove her feeding tubes, why they don't just give her an overdose of morphine. It would be quicker, they wouldn't have to worry about problems like this, and it would be less cruel.

[LisaL]

34. And it would also be illegal-thus, they can't.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. Talk About Civil Disobedience!

If they did that, i think there would be about 50 laws broken. OK, maybe not 50, but several. Even though i don't agree with their motives or their philosophy, i do respect their courage. Assuming of course, they do no damage or hurt nobody along the way. If it turns violent, lock 'em all up and toss the key.
The Professor

[ultraist]

91. If they take her, they should get charged with KIDNAPPING

They have NO legal right to take her out of that facility. Why these fundies think they are above the law and can kill abortion doctors, set off bombs and kidnap people is beyond me. They are fucking terrorists.

[ProfessorGAC]

141. No Argument From Me

Breaking laws for the common good is not necessarily a bad thing. King breaking Jim Crow laws in Alabama was the right thing to do, so the law isn't issue. Sometimes we HAVE to be above the law, when it's a bad law.

But, prohibition of kidnapping is not a bad law. In this case, if they break that law for the purposes of their own moral compass, they should be prepared to face the consequences. The consequences would be jail time. If they REALLY believe in their cause, they'll take the jail time willingly.

Somehow i don't think they will. But, this is, indeed, an act of civil disobedience. I don't agree with cause or method, but it does take some guts.
The Professor

[ultraist]

151. Well said!

I agree, acts of non violent civil disobedience are not necessarily "bad", but in this case, I don't think it's a noble act, as it was during the civil rights movement.

[Jesus Saves]

43. It's a fetish

These right to lifers are just trying to wear the self-righteous hat. People are dying all over this world, by the thousands every day, young people, kids, people starving, dying of all kinds of diseases (some of them easily preventable) - and yet these same precious right to lifers don't seem to give a rat's *ss about that - and wail and moan if our government spends any of our tax dollars on helping those in the 'Turd World' countries as they call them.

Right to lifers are just like any other right winger - heartless, cold, and hateful.

[janx]

78. Howard Dean calls them Pharisees. n/t

[cap]

45. terri is only living because her insurance covers this...

if this was a Medicaid patient, there would be no story. Medicaid wouldnt pay for this.

I wonder if we can ask Jeb to ensure that Medicaid would cover this for all patients?

[msanthrope]

47. She is a medicaid patient....n/t

www.abstractappeal.com

[cap]

85. yes, but if she were not a "celebrity case"

she would have been dead already... this is not what happens in an average Medicaid patient.

[DearAbby]

48. Most these people also groan at the idea of making sure that every child

is medically insured, they moan about raising the minimum wage so people can actually care for their families. They scream about welfare. To some RW Christians it's "Root Hog or Die" Except in this case, Why?

Do you realize there are Nursing Homes in this country where there are not enough people to feed the residents properly? Where are these people then? People that can eat, can't, because there are'nt enough people to feed them. No, they are not Starving, but are they getting the care they should be? Where are these So called RIGHT TO LIFE People then?

They have made Terri into a Freak Show, her life and her memory is ruined...this is a young girl that was so concerned about her appearance that she starved herself...the stay thin...Eat a meal and intentionally PUKE it up...and why? Did mommy and daddy tease this girl about being chubby....How Ironic, now they worry about her not eating.

Terri is dead, to continue to nourish a body, with no brain is actually morbid. Its a mockery. Let this woman have some shred of dignity. Allow her to pass in peace.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Are they going to "rescue" the begonias too?

[bluedog]

56. children's lives-terrorized

Cross Bayou has to send buses to pick up kids that are walkers and bikers a block away to pick them up and bus them past these assholes.......police and fencing all over the street(dead end)......teachers are getting special passes to park......Media is 24/7 about the protesters but Not telling the world that the people of
PINELLAS COUNTY
are paying for this circus................Terri is on state funding........


Terri lives at the Woodside Hospice - part of a not-for-profit hospice network in Florida - among terminally ill patients. She is permitted to stay there for free because she is considered indigent, Bushnell said. Patients who can afford it pay roughly $80,000 a year to stay at the hospice.

Terri Schiavo's medical costs - which Bushnell says are relatively small - have been paid for the past couple of years by the state's Medicaid program for needy people.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/17/Tampabay/Money_is_just_about_e.shtml



I would like to Protesters to sign a PLEDGE that if Terri gets out of this..take her to your home for 2 months a year and care for her...save us the expense.as you all well know.her parents sure are not going to keep her "home"...she'll be farmed out to another nursing place....

Enough id Enough with this crap

If this bill passed.......it effects every citizen of Fl.....................

[ohio_liberal]

58. Next up

Religious fanatics enter every single nursing home in Florida to save end stage Alzheimer dementia patients.

/sarcasm

[Ganja Ninja]

62. I'm doing my best to ignore this whole mess.

Besides we'll be watching this play itself out next year and the year after and the year after that. This case shouldn't be viewed as a liberal cause. This is one mans fight to have his severely brain damaged wife removed from life support. The outcome just doesn't concern me all that much. If the Bush cult wants her than they can have her. It's no big deal to me. I think we all need to ask ourselves, do we really care or is this becoming an us against them thing.

[Jesus Saves]

63. I agree

It's an issue that is outside of politics to a certain extent. Of course the right to lifers have taken it and turned into part of their agenda.

[janx]

73. Well, good for you. A young woman's body has been used

for political purposes--and you don't care?

[Ganja Ninja]

140. Use away if that's your thing.

I care enough that I'm not getting sucked in to a fight just because some Christian fundies have made a cause out of this.

[Baconfoot]

77. She's not brain damaged.She's not brain-dead.She's more "brain-lacking."NT

[ultraist]

92. Yes she is brain damaged, severely brain damaged

She went without oxygen for at least 8 minutes which caused severe brain damage. That's what a vegetative state is, brain damage.

[Bouncy Ball]

124. I guess.

If you agree that "brain damaged" also includes "most of brain MISSING."

[ultraist]

131. Apparently it is missing, none of us have seen the original medical record

But I admit, I did have mixed feelings about the need to pull the plug. IF she were my loved one, I would have sought more alternative and experimental treatments. Something about her husband gives me the creeps too. Maybe because she was severely bulimic and he did not do an intervention which may have saved her life.

But, upon further reading, it seems that this late in the game, there is not much point in pursuing some of these new types of therapy, like regenerative tissue/organ growth, like they are doing at MIT and Harvard. Apparently, this needs to be done within the first few weeks of injury, at least at this point. Within a decade or so, there will be more options; technology will be more advanced.

I NEVER felt as though the fundies had a right to use her as their banner cause. They are totally whacked out.

I also would NOT want any laws changed with regard to kinship, including the spouse being first of kin. By the same token, I do wonder about the rights of the disabled being properly advocated for. Again, this is my mistrust of her husband, which may be unfounded. We don't really know.

Lastly, I am not a fan of using starvation as active euthanasia. It is different than passive euthanasia where the patient chooses not to eat or loses their appetite, has a DNR or is left untreated for pneumonia. But, I do support the use of morphine for active euthanasia.

The fact is, the court has ruled and she will be euthanized.

[Bouncy Ball]

132. Well it's illegal to use morphine

and that would be the MOST humane thing to do.

Her brain scans are available on the internet, just google for them. You'll see, very graphically, just how much she is missing.

And just how much she is no longer there.

[ultraist]

135. Yes, technically it is illegal

But Hospice does this all of the time. With both my father and close friend, we were given the choice to drastically increase the morphine dosage at a certain point. IF the patient is terminally ill, morphine is "as needed" with no limits. It does slow the respiratory and cardiac systems. Believe me, it does work and does not have to be pumped in with an IV or machine, like Kervorkian uses. So, technically, it's for pain and not euthanasia.

When both of my loved ones, who both had cancer, were ready, and had reached a certain point, we agreed with the Hospice nurse on this. It was merciful.

Hospice is a wonderful organization and I would love to hear what her Hospice nurses have to say. IMO, they ARE the death experts. Even more so than the doctors.

[Bouncy Ball]

138. Oh I agree about hospice nurses.

But Terri's case has received so much publicity, there's no way they would be allowed to do morphine at this point. Which just makes it even sadder.

[ultraist]

139. That's too bad

Funny thing, I have been in that same facility and met some of those Hospice nurses, they would find a way if they could. This was years ago though, I'm sure they are not all of the same ones, but even still, they train them all with the same philosophy.

It's totally insane to pull the feeding tube but not administer morphine, that makes no sense whatsoever to me.

[AngryOldDem]

65. So they want to make this even more of a sideshow

than it already is.

:(

[janx]

74. It is no longer a side show. n/t

[Desertrose]

67. Wondering where's all the concern for the troops & Iraqis dying in Iraq?

Obviously much easier to focus on one poor soul and show "righteous outrage" than have to deal with so much else thats gone wrong in this country.
How sad......:cry:


This is such a circus...totally beyond surreal!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. I wonder if her husband has considered

doing this exact thing? Is it possible for him to sneak her out of this facility in the middle of the night and take her to an undisclosed location?

[LisaL]

80. Why would he do that?

The only legal way for her to die is by removal of her feeding tube.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. And maybe if he takes her to an undisclosed location

he can do just that, and let her die in peace. I know if I was him, I would be considering getting her out of the spotlight.

[LisaL]

84. If he does anything to her without court's permission,

don't you think he will be charged with murder? The only legal way for her to die is to have her tube removed by medical professionals. If her husband does what you suggest, I am pretty sure he will be charged in her death.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. Why does he need court's permission?

Doesn't he have power of attorney?

And I am not suggesting taking her away from the care of medical professionals, but suggesting she be secretly moved to a new facility, and not telling her parents where she is.

[ultraist]

94. She is a ward of the state, an indigent

He did this so she would qualify for medicaid and he would not have to pay for her health insurance or medical care.

The state has legal custody, he doesn't. Oftentimes spouses do have custody over disabled spouses. (They have to get this through the courts).

He does however have the power to make the call on medical decisions since he is next of kin.

He would have to go through the courts and request that she be placed somewhere else. But there are a very limited number of places that would take a medicaid indigent in her condition.

[LisaL]

98. Do you think he has a right to not tell her parents where she is?

What if she was your child? I know she is an adult, but still?
Her parents have raised her for 21 years before she married, and her marriage lasted for 5 years before her collapse. Yet, you think he has a right to not tell her parents where she is?

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Yes I do think he has the right to not tell her parents

especially if they are not acting in her best interests. Her father said he would cut off her arms and legs it that was the only way she could survive. I believe that proves he is not keeping Terri's best interest in mind.

[Bouncy Ball]

125. What?

You said

I know she is an adult, but still?


EXACTLY. She's an ADULT.

Not a child.

[ultraist]

137. Legally, he does have that right

Personally, I would not do such a thing, even to my Repuke in laws whom I cannot stand. But to refuse them a goodbye is cruel and unethical.

[mondo joe]

148. Yes. Parents do not have the right to supercede the rights of the adult

child.

[mondo joe]

150. Lizzy, why do you think I as an adult have no rights

other than what my parents concede to me?

Do I not have a right to a legal guardian other than my parents?

[PopSixSquish]

72. These People Have Lost Their Minds

If, as they claim, Mrs. Schiavo responds to stimuli and feels pain, do they know how much pain they will inflict upon her by trying to remove her from the facility?

This woman's muscles have atrophied, her bones have atrophied and any attempt to move her except with the most delicate of care, would "hurt" her.

Needless to say, the irony is lost on these fools.

[janx]

79. "These people" ?

Guess what? It's our federal government.

[killbotfactory]

95. let the poor lady die already

it's what she wanted. this is disgusting.

[Nashyra]

102. Her parents raised her to make choices

She chose to get married, she would have been legaly responsible for making medical decisions for her husband if the roles had been reversed. My God why don't these people let her rest in peace. If my husband allowed me to live under these conditions and if my parents did you could rest assured when I finally was able to rest in peace I would come back and haunt the hell out of them, they would be afraid of their own shadow. For those of you advocating letting her continue on, have some one tie you up, put a blindfold on get in a dark closet and let someone feed you through a long straw and see how long you would last without going crazy. If by some stretch of the imagination she has any senses left I would think she would have been driven mad by now. There seems to be no common sense left, just what the rw media wants the sheeple to think, herd mentality.

[LisaL]

105. Well, by the same token, you could get in a dark closet

and stop eating and drinking for several weeks.

[RetroLounge]

101. Looks like a few DU'ers would join that rescue

pathetic...

RL

[LisaL]

106. Are we all supposed to be carbon copies of each other?

Having the same opinions about everything?

[RetroLounge]

107. As opposed to agreeing with fundy repugs?

feel free...

RL

[LisaL]

109. I am pretty sure I am not alone in having some conservative

view points. There was the whole thread on conservative viewpoints, and many people admitted to it-oh the horror! the horror!

[RetroLounge]

113. Well, then get on the bus, Terry needs you...

:hi:

(Waving goodbye, not hello...)

RL

[LisaL]

118. Actually, I am a law abiding citizen, so, no, thank you.

[Idioteque]

103. I live in Pinellas Park

Terry Schaivo is about a half mile away from me right now. I have the feeling that the next few days are going to be quite interesting.

[ultraist]

136. YOu better duck and cover, those people have been known to use bombs!

They are fucking terrorists.

[Bouncy Ball]

110. Please please please just let the poor woman's body

go in PEACE. SHE (Terri) is already gone. Everything that made her Terri is no longer there--her personality, her voice, her emotions, her thoughts, her consciousness.

But her body is still being kept alive, inexplicably.

Let her go in peace, people.

[killbotfactory]

111. They can't

Otherwise their claims that "life begins at conception" would be false. They have to believe that no matter what state your body is in, no matter if you have no mind left whatsoever, you are still living. I think if she was decapitated and a machines kept her body functioning, they would believe she is alive.

[Bouncy Ball]

129. Her parents did say they'd be willing to have

all four of her limbs amputated if they needed to be, and they'd agree to open heart surgery AND they said they wouldn't have cared even IF she had her wishes not to be kept this way written down, they'd still go against it.

Nice, huh?

[datasuspect]

142. they are being humane

by removing her from life support (isn't this what a "rescue" would only accomplish?). they seem sorta at cross-purposes with themselves though. i think they want to "save" her. but she'll cease biological activity in either case.

[Bo]

149. Let the parents take her home...mummify her fgs

...another media circus