Should Reid and the Dems 'shut down the government'?

[ck4829]

Reid has threatened to shut down the Senate, so that no business can be done at all. I think something has to be done about the corruption in the government and perhaps this is the only way we can combat it. Not only that, a RW'er has said it would be a bad idea to do thay, therefore it might be a good thing to do.

Should Reid and the Senate Democrats shut the Senate down?

[WI_DEM]

It's hard to say, when Gingrich did it to Clinton it backfired on

the Republicans.

[burythehatchet]

3. They did it for self-serving reasons

we're doing it to try and save America

[WI_DEM]

16. I know our reasons, but the media would manipulate it

to make the democrats the villians.

[burythehatchet]

17. Not necessarily

The media wants ratings. A conflict of this order will definitely bring ratings. The Thugs lost the PR war because they were wrong. We would win the PR war because the Thugs no longer have a shred of credibility.

[burythehatchet]

1. Absolutely

The Republicans are a cancer on the body politic. If the Dems can reduce the amount of damage that is done, then great.

[Catch22Dem]

2. There'd be terrible backlash from that

So, I don't know. Imagine all the ads next year showing Dems shutting down govt.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. YES!!!!!! Without the Filibuster, they have NOTHING.

They have to do something to stop these assholes. If shutting down the government is their only resort, do it. IMCPO

on edit...AND after they shut down the government, HIT THE AIRWAVES, go on Air America, travel around their districts and tell the sheeple what the hell is going on. Heaven knows they will have the time.

[ck4829]

5. Where I found out about this

Sean Rushton of the Committee for Justice calls Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid’s statement yesterday threatening to shut down Senate business should GOP Senators carry out the so-called “nuclear option” against the use of Democrats’ filibuster, "kabuki theater for wealthy, liberal, Democratic financial supporters" and that if Democrats actually carried out their threat, it would be "political suicide*." "Smart Democrats want the Republicans to take the filibuster away from them,” Rushton tells The Washington Times. “They know judicial filibusters are hurting them politically."

* - The RW'ers also said giving Dean the position of DNC Chairman would be 'political suicide', so far it seems to be working out just fine.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050316-121710-8056r.htm

With thanks to PFAW.

[atommom]

14. "Smart Democrats want the Republicans to take the filibuster away

from them"!?? I suppose his "smart Democrats" would also love to be voted out of office and replaced with Republicans! The Kool-Aid drinking analogy started out as a joke, but I'm not so sure anymore.... they seem to have completely lost touch with reality.

[burythehatchet]

19. no offense but why quote anything from the Moonie Times?

Its like quoting Pat Robertson as an authority on religion.

[Jersey Ginny]

28. Then it is exactly what the dems should do

If the Moonie Times says we shouldn't. I think that the Dems have been living in a world where they really believe that there is hope for civility with this crop of facist Rethugs. If the Rethugs go nuclear, it will be a real wake up call for the Dems. If the Dems shut down/slow down government, they will be doing so out of a realization of how they have been railroaded and betrayed by their "colleagues." When Gingrich did his thing, it was about politics. That's the difference that I see, so it wilted when there was public outcry. The democrats won't have any trouble explaining their actions loudly and clearly because they'll talk, for once, from the heart.

[HeeBGBz]

6. Go for it

What do we have left to lose?

[quiet.american]

7. We need to make sure we have serious echo chambers if we do it

When Clinton refused to be "blackmailed" by Gingrich, as I remember him so clearly and succinctly stating, FAUX News was not in existence, and Limbaugh hadn't yet gotten a toe-hold, if I remember correctly.

Should Harry Reid shut down government, which I'm in favor of, Democrats need to ensure we can get the word out as widely and as quickly as possible as to WHY it is being shut down, because we absolutely know FAUX News will go into hysterical jackal mode faster than you can say "falafel" -- and we don't want the Kool-Aid drinkers exclusively framing the situation.

[Toots]

20. and Limbaugh hadn't yet gotten a toe-hold,

I seem to remember Newt parading Rush around congress and making him an unofficial Congressman. Also said Rush was the most influential factor in getting Republican control of Congress. It was because the Republicans refused to pay government workers that the backlash happened. Democrats have no control over that as they are not in the majority. The budget will be passed before the fillibuster change so that won't be an issue for us..It will be an issue for all the percs for big business that will cause some pain for the money boys though. they will put the pressure on republicans to end the situation promptly. It is a win win situation for the Democrats and they would be utterly incompetent if they don't do it..

[quiet.american]

32. Okay, Rush wasn't on my radar then -- my point remains --

Thanks for the reminder Rush was in like Flynn --

Even though ideally it could be perceived as a win-win for the Democrats, I still would say FAUX News and the now-unofficial faux news manufactured by Bushco HAS to be taken into account when the Democrats make their move.

Also, the statement that the backlash happened because Republicans refused to pay the government workers is not quite correct -- as you'll remember President Clinton refused to buy into the Republican "Contract on America" -- with their heinous budget cuts and assault on the environment -- (the legislation Bush Gone Wild is now gleefully implementing) and the resulting government shutdown, along with the simultaneous front-page headlines of Newt whining because he had to exit to the rear of Air Force One, went a long ways toward the backfiring of the Republican blackmail tactic.

[KharmaTrain]

8. How? Without Giving Hate Radio A Field Day?

Remember when Gingrich shut the House down in '95? Clinton held his ground and the result was a budget surplus and Gingrich was painted as the evil goon he is...putting politics ahead of the country. And that was a good case scenario.

If Reid attempts to fillibuster or find some other manipulation just to shut the Senate down lock, stock and barrel, that would be disaster to Democrats as it would give cannon fodder to the hate radio spewers and the other regime spinners that would clog the airwaves like one large corporate constipation. They'll "Daschele" him worse than what happened to Daschele.

You pick your fights. Why Democrats don't get off their asses and get their party organized for 2006 is the real tragedy right now. Instead of bitching, the only way this madness will end is when Democrats take control of the House and start putting the brakes to this regime's runaway train. The only way that's gonna happen is to build up state and local organizations, and the time that has to be done is now. There's no national party organizing this and various interest groups are tied up in their own battles and guarding their turf...things aren't looking good for 2006.

What's happening is what I expected after the last election and led to a long funk on my behalf...cause I knew there was precious little Democrats can do without control of any major lever of power in Washington, and the poor state of many party organizations around the country. And you're asking to be marginialized further?

Many senators are holding their powder for the surely coming Supreme Court battles...one of the few cases where a 2/3s is needed and Democrats, standing united, can stop a Scalia...but on majority votes, we're screwed.

[knight_of_the_star]

23. No, Reid won't go as far as Gingrich did

In his statement he said he would shut down the Senate for all business except for issues pertaining to national defense and in relation to regular government spending so that the government will still work and the troops will still get what they need. EVERYTHING ELSE will be shut down, and I think that selectiveness will show he is doing it for the country since he isn't shutting everything down, only where the most odious stuff can happen.

[Jersey Ginny]

30. What are you talking about?

The rights of the minority to filibuster is a 200 year senate tradition and essential to compromise and democracy. Democrats are losing their power, not holding it buy not taking stands. I applaud Harry Reid. Dachele was a wimp and I'm glad he is gone. Harry Reid sees the danger to democracy here. Maybe I missed your point, but your saying the Dems ought to let this one go and allow extremist judges to have life long appointments? What? BYW, Reid is smarter than Gingrich. And what makes you think that the Dems aren't organizing for 2006? Isn't that why Dean is head of the DNC?

[KharmaTrain]

40. I'm Saying Pick Your Fights...

The GOOP would love to be able to use the corporate media to bash Democrats who hold up a procedural bill that say contains a defense appropriation or some other "popular" (and I'll preface that momentarily) motion...tax cuts could be another...and make Democrats look like obstructionists and then wrachet this up on the state and local levels in areas where Democrats are vulnerable. They've done it before and are very good at doing it again.

Yes, principals are important and there are going to need to be times where fillibuster is the last resort and, sadly, purely a symbolic gesture to the faithful of the importance of this particular issue. Unfortunatly without the votes we have to be find the right fight to unite not only all Democrats (and we're not even seeing that...Mr. Reid needs to focus on party discipline IMHO) but crosses over to a solid majority...doing what the GOOP has perfected in recent years...marginalizing issues and using them to their political gain.

Unfortunately this village will have to burn before it can be saved. The only saving grace here is for us to remain firm on our various core values and maybe someone can come along to find the common threads that can unite this party. Right now the Democratic party has no compass...shooting wildly means only more of damage.

[skylarmae]

9. wouldn't it be nice - wonder if he really can? or would?

is it possible for Democrats to stand united (really united) on any one front. I wonder.....

[cdb]

10. YES!

Yes... absolutely! Stop the fuckers before they stop us.

[Nite Owl]

11. Yes, they should

Otherwise they might as well just go back home and do nothing for the rest of the term. This is too important to just roll over and take it. It would bring attention to what the repukes are doing too. The people are on our side, what the rebukes are doing is not popular, it's not like we are stopping national heathcare we are stopping them from doing more harm. He said they would vote on national security issues. People don't even realize that this is happening and it would separate them from the unpopular congress and let people see that it is not the dems in congress but the repukes.

[coffeenap]

12. Yes--and then we should all go to Washington to sit-in with them! nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. GREAT IDEA! I would go. n/t

[Edgewater_Joe]

13. Hell Yeah!

Remember, in '95 Newt shut down the entire Government over the worst parts of the Contract On America.

And in '05, Harry Reid would be shutting down the entire Government over the worst parts of Repunk rule.

While Bush is personally still being Gannon-ed by the press corps, his policies are getting pounded, and polling numbers are on our side. If Reid keeps this in mind (and works with allies like Dean to keep the grass roots active), this can become the foundation for flipping Congress over to The Forces of Good in '06.

[Jersey Ginny]

31. Us, the grassroots will have to support our senators

and bash the facist power play of the Rethugs. I said this earlier, the Democrats will really feel betrayed by their Rethug "colleagues." When Dems speak from the heart, they will get their message through to Americans. And we will have to help them!

[Mizmoon]

15. Yes, if Reid thinks we should

The man has been a breath of fresh air so far.

I think this is different than the Gringrich shut-down too. If I recall, the anger back then had to do wtih government workers being sent home. That meant the DC tourists were marooned and citizens couldn't get government services. From what I understand, this shut-down would not include those vexing elements.

[spunky]

18. No. It would make a nice statement to those of us on the left,

but Rove's spin cycle would turn it into something totally not what it is, and the Democrats will wind up looking like evil facists who try to shut down democracy.

The right is SOOOO good at spin, and at controlling the message that gets to the public, this would blow up in the Dems faces in a very major way, IMO. Bad, bad, bad idea.

[Jersey Ginny]

33. If I'm forced off the cliff I'm want to go off doing a swan dive

How much more power can the dems lose anyway, dammit. The time is now. Harry Reid will lead intelligently and from the heart.

[spunky]

38. I'd rather he lead intelligently from the _head_.

There is always more to lose. The republicans would throw it in Dems faces for YEARS to come.

I don't think its time for a suicidal swan dive off the cliff yet. Fight the good fight, don't take your ball and go home crying a la Cartman (screw you guys I'm going home. . .)

[LynnTheDem]

21. YES.

It's getting to the point where there is nothing but America itself left to lose.

[formerrepuke]

22. No way.. it'll backfire big time.. not only would the Dems be portrayed..

..as 'anti-values,' 'anti-life,' 'anti-troops,' 'anti-business,' but would also be accused doing it just because they're 'sore losers.' And it would harm the mid-terms.

[Jersey Ginny]

36. Are you worried about polls or are you speaking from your heart?

Do you think it is OK for the Repukes to do this? If you're worried about polls, then your missing the point of where and how most of us want the Dems to fight. I want my senators to do what's right and not worry about the propaganda fed to the mushy middle.

[formerrepuke]

39. ..not speaking from my heart.. but

the 'mushy middle' is large, and doesn't usually care for details- and the RW spin machine would have a field day. If we had a Rove & Co. of our own, it would really help.

[sadiesworld]

24. Absolutely.

The approval ratings for Congress and the pResident are low. The sheeple may not know much, but they realize the republicans are in control. The only thing the republicans have going for them at this point is the perception that they are stronger on terror.

A shut down would illustrate a real dem commitment to stopping the disastrous policies coming out of DC and would be perceived as a sign of strength, IMO.

Go for it.

[OETKB]

25. LET'S CHOOSE OUR LANGUAGE CAREFULLY

This is not bringing down the government, but through appropriate leadership making it work properly. Votes in the Senate are a particular problem. A win of 51 votes represents significantly less than 51% of the population in this present congress. In actual fact more than 50% of the people oppose the drilling and the type of judicial nominations * is proposing. If you count the population represented by the 49 Senators who are opposed to the drilling, I am sure this is over 50% of the electorate. The filibuster rules and other rules actually protect both majority and minority decisions. Representative democracy is not a forte of the Senate. It is for this reason procedures have been introduced over the years to enforce these democratic ideas.

[PATRICK]

37. Action/reaction

One party attempts to quash Senate rules and traditions to seize one party rule. The other party reacts by stopping the Senate dead in its tracks until rules are restored.

There is a lot of discussion on how to do this right and how much, but the real consequence(especially after a new war/terrorist attack) will be escalating presidential directives over the next few years. Because this will happen anyway, the Dems might as well do their Senatorial duty for the good of the majority of citizens and the best interests of the country. Anything less will make them more craven and useless than they have been already for less and less good results, for which there are no automatic traditional rewards(media, elections) to be had by naive assumptions.

But to get ALL the Dems on the side of shutting down the Senate? That would be a feat. By definition I would think things would have to be so desperate as for it to be by definition too late. Democrats are a far far cry from getting ahead of an issue and off the defensive. Many have been reduced to saying "give us a push" to the grass roots as if that is a natural pre-requisite of political leadership. No wonder also that when someone actually pushes who is not a big money corporate donor of conservative persuasion they balk.

Such are defending the very meaning of America and its raped hypocritical institutions. Yet, they ARE the good guys and must rise to the occasion.

[OETKB]

46. Somebody, please say something!

Here, here to you. However I'm expecting the loyal opposition to show some political backbone. As that philosopher said to god, "Would it hurt to have even a "small" fortune. All I see is milk toast, corporate democrats sitting on their hands. No one is fighting for those of us who think our society's survival is at stake. Either we are all in this together or we are not.

Remember Malcom X said, the American and French Revolutions were fought with bullets. He then went on to say, "Now I am not preaching violence." In silence he was roaring that something to pay attention to the most vulnerable must be done or more violent solutions will be chosen. How far away are we from that?(and I by the way I AM NOT PREACHING VIOLENCE!!!)

[Norquist Nemesis]

26. No. Instead skip out of Washington and back to constituents.

Start campaigning NOW...for Democrats. Get back to the people and rail the Republicans at every opportunity.

Most of the votes are heading down party lines anyway. Have the author of a bill or amendment with one or two Dems speaking on behalf of the item (it's going to get voted down anyway). And when the Republicans try little grandstanding jabs, those two or three people handle it all strategically and on target.

So, unless they can make an impact (such as with judicial appointments), spend the time on the road, hitting the airwaves, conducting town hall meetings, schmoozing with editors, even doing ribbon cuttings and shaking hands with Joe/Jane Public.

[ck4829]

27. Sign the DU Petition or suggest an Alternative at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3293044

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

29. We should just abstain like the Sunnis

From all of it. Let them have their "government."

[mmonk]

35. Yes

without the filibuster, representative government will be gone at least for a generation. Rightwing ideologues have been planning this moment for years. They want the courts to be a veto to any congressional legislation they don't like.

[shance]

41. High time to shut it DOWN.

n/t

[unhappycamper]

42. nuke 'em, Danno

[DemGirl7]

43. Yes, Reid and the Democrats should shutdown the Senate..

If It will take care of the BS that the Republicans are trying to pull. Plus I'm very partial to a good partisan showdown...maybe that is why I'm really hooked on the judicial nominee thing going on in the Senate.

[libertypirate]

44. Yes Yes Yes shut down the senate to save america!

[mvd]

45. If they officially get rid of the fillibuster..

yes, I think we need to take a stand. If minority rights go, we are doomed.

[rfkrfk]

47. filibuster, some other issue

these guys never go to the movies?
Where is Senator Jefferson Smith, when we need him?
take the floor, don't give it back.
I think it would be fun to watch C-Span when they show
Senators reading the phone book.
You have to start somewhere.
Don't let this go, without at least one collapse.

[spanone]

48. For the RIGHT to filibuster? Yep, otherwise we have 1 party gov.

And that's truly what the thugs will accomplish.