I think the Schindlers are evil. I find how they are willing to prostitute

[saracat]

their daughter's death and abuse and falsify their religion in order to promote their own agenda disgusting. They claim to be Catholic yet haven't even the basic understanding of the concept of "mortal sin' They deliberately misinterpreted the concept in court filings. Now they are misinterpreting both extreme unction and communion in an attempt to use the sacraments to subvert a court order. The concept of a spiritual communion is well know in the Church. It is not necessary for Terry to actually consume the host. They have allowed an attorney and their daughter to resort to obvious perjury in an attempt to get their way! These people have no depths to which they will not sink. They have stated that they don't even care if their daughters wish was to die, they wouldn't honor it because it would make them happy to do otherwise. They don't want Terri to live. They want whatever money they are generating from the RW. They themselves returned her to the hospital as her care was "overwhelming". They personally don't have the kind of funds it would take to maintain her. Who would pay for it? I think these people should be arrested. If nothing else they are obstructing a court order and abusing the power of the courts!

[Fenris]

1. I have no sympathy for them.

I lost any remaining sympathy for them when they made Randall Terry their spokesperson.

[FreedomAngel82]

5. After I read more about this case

and everything they've been doing the past couple years I don't feel sorry for them one bit. They could've easily told the GOP people to "butt out" of their private personal affair. They didn't so I don't feel sorry for them at all. They caused this mess just so they could "win" and probably win some money.

[katinmn]

35. Bingo.

Having that guy as their spokesperson tells you that they're in it for reasons other than parental concern.

[mondo joe]

2. They could not be moreso if they let drunks have sex with Terri

for $10 a pop.

They have sold her out in the most shameful way.

[Fridays Child]

3. They have become pathological in their desperation.

But they're not evil.

[IndianaGreen]

4. On the contrary, the Catholic Church has called this a case of euthanasia!

Friday February 25, 2005

Says removal of feeding tube would be “grave step toward the legal approval of euthanasia”

VATICAN CITY, February 25, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) – The Vatican has stepped in to call on Florida Judge George W. Greer to spare the life of the cognitively disabled Florida woman Terri Schiavo. The emergency stay preventing her husband Michael Schiavo from removing her feeding tube expires at five pm Friday.

Judge Greer extended the emergency stay for another 48 hours Wednesday, to consider arguments raised by the Schindler’s attorney – that Michael is unfit to be Terri’s guardian, because of evidence suggesting that he may have been abusive. Terri's parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, have been battling for seven years to keep their daughter alive.

President of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, Cardinal Renato Martino, spoke on Vatican Radio. “If Mr. Schiavo succeeds legally in causing the death of his wife, this not only would be tragic in itself, but would be a grave step toward the legal approval of euthanasia in the United States,” according to a Zenit News report.

“I would like to remind everyone in this connection, about all that the Holy Father has said in past days to the Pontifical Academy for Life, confirming that the quality of life is not interpreted as economic success, beauty and physical pleasure, but consists in the supreme dignity of the creature made in the image and likeness of God,” the Cardinal added. “No one can be the arbiter of life except God himself.”

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/feb/05022502.html

[saracat]

This has nothing to do with the definition of mortal sin they use or

trying to use communion to subvert a court order! Sheesh. These people are scum. And BTW, what kind of Catholic would support Randall Terry? This kind of stuff is catering to the uneducated Catholic. You won't find any Jesuits who think this way! That is why the Jesuits are always at odds with Rome. They are the founders of the educational institutions, and don't suffer fools gladly.

Poor Terri. I am sure it will be great to get away from her parents! I wish her peace.

[IndianaGreen]

11. No matter how you slice it, this is euthanasia!

That's what the Pope says. That's what other people of faith say. That's what a minority of progressives on this board say.

[mondo joe]

14. Only if you make up words. Euthenasia is not the process of

allowing someone to die naturally. It requires introducing an agent to hasten death.

[saracat]

18. Funny, you never answer the question about their lying in court documents.

You always answer back with the Pope and Euthanasia! I guess the church thinks lying and perjury are acceptable to prevent Euthanasia?
And since when does the Church get to weigh in on OUR judicial system? And since when does what they have to say regarding these matters mean anything. If they want to weigh in on secular matters, they should pay taxes!

[Texasgal]

53. Well since the Pope said it...

Then it must be correct..../ Dripping sarcasm

[IndianaGreen]

56. And to quote a member of my own faith, this is euthanasia!

Catching the Moon

Our columnist looks at the spiritual and moral issues surrounding the Schiavo case.

WEB EXCLUSIVE

By Marc Gellman

March 21 - We are forced to face extraordinary moral issues mostly because ordinary people make their lives or deaths inescapable. The civil-rights struggle was always visible; but after the Mississippi murders of James Chaney, Michael Schwerner, and Andrew Goodman in the summer of 1964, the struggle was inescapable. Violence against gay people was always visible, but after the death of Matthew Shepherd in October 1998 that violence was inescapable. The moral dilemma of surrogate parenting was made inescapable by the decision of Mary Beth Whitehead in February 1988 not to surrender the child she had been paid to conceive. And now, Terri Schiavo has made inescapable the always-present moral issues of euthanasia—and, in doing so, has wordlessly reminded us that all the big issues are moral and personal and spiritual and ultimately never legal or political.

The three facts all parties to the Schiavo case agree are true are that she is alive, she is innocent and she is mute. Everything else is in dispute. One group is arguing that rational individuals can decide to refuse medical treatment, even healing treatments, if they are unhappy about the quality of their life. Terri's husband is saying that Terri wanted this. The other side is arguing that she did not want this and that her parents are willing to care for her. I believe the issue is what we as a culture will do with living, innocent, mute people in our midst, and no court can rule on that.

In many right-to-die cases, the patient is on life-support systems, so all that needs to be done to allow them to die is to remove these medical obstacles to death. However, in this case Terri Schiavo is not on any life support systems. In this case, in order to live she only requires hydration and nutrition; and it is a big stretch for many people to label food and water extraordinary means. It is one thing to let a person die in peace who is already dying. It is one thing to remove an obstacle to death. It is quite another to cause death.

When you add in her parents' willingness to assume the financial and emotional burden of her care, the insistence of her husband that he be given the right to starve his wife to death just seems insanely ghoulish to many people who are otherwise in favor of a person's right to die. Death, they argue—and I agree—is not always an insult or a betrayal. Death can be a natural and welcome release from pain and suffering. We now face the frightening possibility of modern medicine, motivated more by a defensive fear of lawsuits than the Hippocratic oath of “first do no harm,” stopping us from crossing over when it is our time. But this obviously is not Terri Schiavo's time. She is alive, innocent and mute. She is not at death's door. All this sound and fury is about cruelly bringing the door to her.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7259993/site/newsweek/

[mondo joe]

58. Legally and medically this is not Euthenasia.

THere is freedom of religion so people can pretend it's euthenasia or anything they like - but it's not legally relevant.

[IndianaGreen]

59. The Nazis felt the same way about their victims

They never killed the seriously disabled, they were merely putting them out of their misery. They never saw their Jewish victims as humans, therefore what they did to them was not murder.

American law saw nothing wrong in executing someone that was severely mentally impaired, or one that committed a capital crime as a child. But even in those cases, the condemned prisoners had more rights than the innocent Terri Schiavo. Who speaks for her, the "husband" that had wanted her dead for years, or her brother, sister, mother, and father, that want her to live?

[mondo joe]

60. Then you missed the important disinction: the free will of the individual.

If you can't see the difference between killing people because they are disabled, and removing life support because of their choice, there is no hope for you.

[IndianaGreen]

62. We only have the word of Michael Schiavo, his brother, and his brother's

wife that Terri ever made such a statement. Terri didn't say that to her sister, or brother, or parents, nor did Terri ever say that to a third party.

[mondo joe]

63. We have the legally sound finding of an investigation by the court.

It is the job of the courts to investigate such disputes and render legally sound verdicts.

That's what happened in this case.

No one is required to make such statements to their parents or siblings.

[IndianaGreen]

64. Which is why the laws will have to be changed

and that is what will be the lasting legacy of the Schiavo case!

[mondo joe]

66. Which laws specifically "will have to be changed"?

And what is your legal basis for these changes?

[mondo joe]

67. I guess I shouldn't have expected a response.

[Tilei]

95. There's a lot of stuff I never talk to anybody

about outside of my marriage. Just as easily the statement can be reversed here.

[SammyWinstonJack]

99. Exactly

I told my husband that I would not want to be kept alive by artificial means, but I've not told any other family members or anyone else for that matter. Likewise he has said the same to me and to no one else. Welcome to DU.

[mondo joe]

100. And you shouldn't HAVE to tell anyone else.

That's sort of the point of the next of kin status -- you've told the one person who has to know.

The way people who tried to change the rules after it's too late is shameful.

[Tilei]

101. Thank you for the Welcome.

[mondo joe]

61. Incidentally, do you still not understand that in the dispute she was

appointed a guardian who was neither Michael Sciavo nor the Schindlers?

When such disputes arise it is the job of the courts to resolve them. Michael petitioned the court to do so.

[LisaL]

80. Michael Schiavo got rid of previous guardian, Richard Pearse.

That guardian believed Michael Shiavo had a conflict of interest, and wasn't convinced of what Terri's wishes were. Michael Schiavo filed a motion, got rid of him, and got this next one, who wrote wonderful things about him.

[mondo joe]

85. Incorrect again. The court got rid of Pearse for bias and errors.

From the GaL:

In response to Mr. Pearse’s report, Michael Schiavo filed a Suggestion of Bias against Mr. Pearse. This document notes that Mr. Pearse failed to mention in his report that Michael Schiavo had earlier, formally offered to divest himself entirely of his financial interest in the guardianship estate. The criticism continues to note that Mr. Pearse’s concern about abuse of inheritance potential was directly solely at Michael, not at the Schindlers in the event they might become the heirs and also choose to terminate artificial life support. Further, significant chronological deficits and factual errors are noted, detracting from and prejudicing the objective credibility of Mr. Pearse’s report.

The Suggestion of Bias challenges premises and findings of Mr. Pearse, establishing a well pleaded case for bias.

[LisaL]

89. The court got rid of him because Mr. Schiavo requested so.

In response to Mr. Pearse report, which Mr. Schiavo didn't like. The next guy though, he sounds un-biased as hell.
:eyes:

[mondo joe]

91. Mr. Schiavo did not have the power to removed Pearse - only to ask

that his performance be looked at. And when that happened he was proven to be a bungler.

If the "next guy" demonstrated that sort of bias the case would have been overturned. It never was.

[POAS]

93. But I'm not Catholic

so why should I allow the Catholic church dictate my moral decisions to me?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dflprincess]

19. It's letting nature take it's course, not euthanasia

When hope for any kind of recovery is gone, there comes a point when it should be asked what nature (or God) intended to have happen. No living creature was meant to go on when their brain has reached the point this poor woman's has.

[Dark]

6. They just love their daughter and can't let go.

They think that she should live because they can't bring themselves to separating with her.

They feel that the ends justify the means, so if they have to bend the rules to save life, they will.

Just a different mindset.

[Blue-Jay]

9. That's how I feel about it too.

I don't "hate" them, I pity them. They have taken a lot of bad advice with hopes that a miracle might happen. If Terri were MY kid, I can't say that I wouldn't want to do something similar. It's a sad affair, especially when you put yourself in the position of a parent who is forced to outlive his/her child.

There's no "up-side" to this whole situation.

[liberalhistorian]

12. I agree, and I can't kick them while

they're down. They're losing a child, and furthermore they have no say or control over that. It has to be extremely difficult to have to watch their daughter die knowing there's nothing they can do and that her husband is the only one who has any say or standing. However right or wrong they may be, they're grieving parents and, as a parent myself, I can't imagine what they're going through right now. I'd have trouble letting go, too.

[Blue_In_AK]

34. There is not a family anywhere...

...that hasn't had to deal with a death. These people are beyond belief.

[Dark]

42. They don't want to deal with it. I understand what they are going through,

but they need to let her move on so that they can move on.

[Sticky]

7. They are grieving....

and being given false hope by a bunch of crazies.

And as a bereaved parent myself I can only hope this will be over for them soon. :cry:

[etherealtruth]

36. In their despair they have been manipulated by crazies...

... and ,far worse than the crazies, are those that manipulate them for political gain.

I am so sorry for your loss.

[Jack Rabbit]

8. They are losing a child

This kind of scorn is out of line.

[saracat]

13. They lost their child fifteen years ago.

They are losing their money tree!The only one on record as turning DOWN money is Michael. These fundies offered him a million dollars to release Terri and he refused. 10 million has been spent on this legal circus!. And you better believe, like Paula Jones before them, these people are being paid. They admit the same organization is currently funding them. Yeah, scorn is out of line. They need jail time.Think of all the people whose cases weren't heard because of them and all the other patients at the hospice who rights have been violated. But I guess as the freepers say, they don't matter.

[sharman]

44. That occurred to me too

Also, that those who are funding this circus, the Scaife foundations et al., regard it as an investment in famous spokespeople that they can put on the inspirational talk circuit to whip up their crowds. I may be speculating unfairly, we will see.

The other thing that occurs to me is, how does this sell now that they have lost the fight? I truly believe that once they got Congress and the Prez on their side, they thought they were going to win. Then they would have this great story to tell--the power of the religious faithful to force the government to do their bidding. Now it's a story of failure--indeed, of the Christian Right flexing their muscle and having it backfire on the politcians who leaped to champion their cause.

It has even backfired a bit on the Fox et al. talking heads, who have been exposed as panderers and liars.

I do wonder, we'll see how it plays out.

[Walt Starr]

15. That father is a son of a bitch

I would not be surprised at all if it came out that he sexually abused Terri when she was a child.

[Fridays Child]

25. I understand your antipathy toward him but...

...I doubt if she was molested by him. The family was intact and close, by all accounts. And I don't know of any studies that have found a connection between incest and bulimia.

As for her bulimia, I wish people would consider one thoroughly overlooked aspect of this case: the price women in our culture are coerced into paying for acceptance. On that score, I fear both parents failed to give her unconditional positive regard, as she grew up. The record indicates that they actually teased her about her weight. That is bad fucking juju.

Obviously, she still would have gotten the "thin equals good" message from the rest of the world but would she have become terminally bulimic, if, at least in the safe harbor of her family home, her size was not an issue? I wonder.

In any case, nobody is talking about it and that failure constitutes a tragically missed opportunity to gleen some meaning from this public spectacle of her death.

[Walt Starr]

28. I still would not be surprised. He demonstrates the controlling attitude

of a parent who sexually abused his child.

[Orangepeel]

48. I guess there's as much evidence of that as there is that Michael beat her

:shrug:

If Mr. Schindler spreads stories about others, he really shouldn't complain if stories are told about him.

[LisaL]

73. And you shouldn't complain when stories are told about Michael

Schiavo. After all, it's fine to make baseless accusations when is suits you.

[LisaL]

72. So baseless accusations are fine?

Except accusations about Michael Schiavo? What gives? When is it o'key to accuse someone of horrible misdeeds without having prove, and when it is not? When it suits you?

[mondo joe]

75. "I wouldn't be surprised" is not an accusation, is it?

[LisaL]

78. And I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out Michael Schiavo caused

her condition by beating her.

[mondo joe]

84. That's fine. The fact that multiple medical exams, including those

in the defense of the physician in the malpractice suit, have never turned up ANYTHING to support that, just speaks to how much of a fantasy it is.

[LisaL]

88. Is there anything whatsoever to support the other "accusation"?

There is nothing. Nothing at all. But baseless accusations are fine, as long as it suits you.

[mondo joe]

94. No one made another accusation.

[MountainLaurel]

43. Eating disorder, control issues

That wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

[Aviation Pro]

16. Terry Schaivo's father...

...is the former owner of a heavy equipment dealership. I've seen this attitude before among business owners: the I'm-right-and-everybody-else-is-wrong-because-I-built-a-business chip on the shoulder. They try to transfer their success into areas in which they have absolutely no understanding whatsoever and when confronted with that fact they revert to the above attitude. In my line of work, I've read about accidents where the charter operator was bullied by an overbearing individual and the horrific result was loss of life. (One of my many safeguards against these pompous asses is that I'm debt free and can tell them to go pound sand if I have to).

[TaleWgnDg]

17. Well. Think about it this way . . .

.
Well. Think about it this way . . . The parents are Roman Catholic. Their daughter, Terri, is Roman Catholic.

It is a mortal sin for a Roman Catholic to take his/her own life. To commit suicide. Thus, the parents do not believe -- cannot believe -- that their own daughter would want to take her life. That their own daughter would NEVER utter words that she "didn't want to 'live' this way" and thus a feeding tube would remain w/i her to nourish her.

In addition, the Schindlers' have stated that EVEN IF prior to the initial incident Terri had uttered the words that "I would not want to be sustained by machines if I were a vegetable" they STILL would not remove the feeding tube.

They are religiously blinded and choose to remain ignorant to the scientific medical fact that Terri has no "life," no quality of life whatsoever, or that she is a mere vegetable w/o a viable brain sustained on a machine.

Again, these are the Roman Catholic tenets. Why do you think the Pope has checked-in on this Schiavo case?

I, as opposed as I am to the Roman Catholic Church and its millennium history of intrusions upon individuals and groups of individuals and science, and on and on . . . understand their religion. As such, I am deeply opposed to the parents intrusion into their daughter's life including their long and protracted religious zealousness as heard before the state courts of Florida and the respective federal courts.

Unfortunately, other religion-into-law rightwing devotees are using the parents as well as Terri and her husband to fulfill their own political agenda a la Tom DeLay and other thugs in congress -- GWBush too! It's they who are funding the many years of state and federal litigation. What is it now? The costs? Near $1 million in attorneys fees and other costs? It's these bastards who should be held responsible for their using and abusing not only the judicial process but congress, the whitehouse, and the entire Schiavo/Schindler family.

Whether it's a woman's right to choose regarding abortion, the Right-to-Die-with-Dignity, or same-sex marriage, it's all one-in-the same issue. Bashed by the religion-into-law radical rightwingers.


________________________________________________________

The Right to Privacy includes both
A Woman's Right to Choose, and
The Right-to-Die-with-Dignity

Keep the Government OFF our bodies and OUT of our bedrooms !
________________________________________________________

[saracat]

20. Umm. having been raised Catholic, I feel obliged to correct you. Whatever

Terri felt prior to her attack, isn't relevant. She cannot commit a "mortal sin "because she is not conscious enough to know right from wrong. You must know something is a sin and "choose" to do it anyway. Even most who think Terri is alive would realize her consciousness doesn't extend to that point.Children before the age of seven cannot be held responsible for "mortal sins."
This is a question of "choice and responsibility" Terri cannot accept either.

[TaleWgnDg]

21. No. Legally speaking and factually speaking . . .

Terri's wishes "I do not want to be held on a life support system if I am a medical vegetable" would have occurred prior to the incident/accident/etc . . . this is why the legal system relies upon it. It is made while the person is legally competent (mentally viable) to make such choices. And this is what Terri did according to state and federal courts.

Please read again my above post, b4 assuming otherwise. Thanks.

[saracat]

22. I am talking spititually. I am aware of the legality.

The Scindler argument is that the state is "causing Terri to committ a mortal sin against her will" That is not possible. She either committs a mortol sin willingly or not at all!

[TaleWgnDg]

24. Again, it is a fact according to all the state and federal courts

Again, it is a legal fact (has never been disproved) according to all the state and federal courts that Terri uttered words BEFORE she was hospitalized (while well, viable and legally competent) that IF she were ever in a medical vegetable state being sustained ONLY by artificial means, then she would want to be cut off from those machines.

This statement, this act -- IS AGAINST the Roman Catholic faith/tenets. Which is why the parents:

(1) do NOT believe Terri made such statements; thus would want to be plugged into the artificial machine(s) even in a medical vegetable state; and

(2) want the courts to do what THEY, the parents, want to do.

Sprituality and faith has squat to do with this LEGAL issue.


PERIOD.

[saracat]

29. I agree .I don't think the religion argument should be used at

all. I am just saying their, the Schindler's argument,is that the state is causing Terri to commit a mortal sin AGAINST her will. I am only saying that according to Catholic doctrine, you CANNOT be forced to commit a mortal sin AGAINST your will. It goes against the definition of what a mortal sin is.
This is the argument they raised, presumably as a religious rights issue that I take exception to.
You are correct legally. The doctrine as they apply it is wrong.

[LibraLiz1973]

23. Hi. I am new. Heres what I find alarming.

That the Schindler's & their "surrogates" keep saying things about Hitler & Stalin- trying to relate Terri's passing to the suffering of Auschwitz and the like. I find that totally reprehensible & sickening. With regards to Nazi Germany I can think of no parallel to Terri's case. I think it is pathetic that they are out there saying things like that- it is an insult to the millions of jews who were tortured to death.

That's just my opinion & the thing I find most distressing about the entire situation (aside from the government trying to get a foot in the door).

Liz

[saracat]

26. Another good point ! Welcome to DU!

:)

[TaleWgnDg]

27. Welcome to DU, LibralLiz1973 . . . and how very true . . .

________________________________________________________

The Right to Privacy includes both
A Woman's Right to Choose, and
The Right-to-Die-with-Dignity

Keep the Government OFF our bodies and OUT of our bedrooms !
________________________________________________________

[LibraLiz1973]

32. Thank you to SaraCat & TaleWgnDg

For your kind welcome. I really appreciate it.

The thing that really ticks me off about them using Nazi Germany as a parallel to Terri's case is that in Nazi Germany entire families were dragged from their homes for one reason and one reason only- the fact that they were Jewish.

There is NO similarity to a woman having a heart attack from severe bulimia who has lain in a hospital bed for the last 15 years. None what-so-ever. To try and compare the removal of a feeding tube from a woman who's cerebral cortex is no longer functioning to the horror of starvation, mental & physical torture and the loss of entire families in Nazi Germany is disgusting. I find that as revolting as KKK members saying that the death of millions of Jews in Nazi Germany is a myth.

I have been sympathetic to the Schindler's emotions as the case became more and more prominent in these last few years. I understand that it must be horrible to watch someone you love die. And I am sure that alot of the things they claim they see her do are projections of what they wish she could do. I sympathize. I really, really do.

But Bob Schindler going on TV yesterday saying that when he went to see Terri the first thing that popped into his head was Jews in concentration camps made me sick. What sort of idiot makes that kind of a comparison? To me it seemed contrived, & meant to be inflammatory. At this point I think they are grandstanding and are willing to say and do anything they can to upset people and stir up the emotional pot. The fact that the entire Schindler family, the spiritual advisors & the attorney are all spouting the same idiocy seems to affirm up my conclusion.

That's just my 10 cents.
Again, thanks for welcoming me!
Liz

[Blue_In_AK]

38. Let me welcome you, too, Liz.

[TaleWgnDg]

40. Here's the financial backers . . . who're paying for the legal costs . . .

.
Here's the financial backers . . . who're paying for the legal costs . . . http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3354749

Bottom-feeding political hacks who want to push their religious agenda upon us all . . . the same political hacks who attempted to impeach Clinton . . . same old same old off-the-wall radicals who want to make their religion the law of our country . . .



________________________________________________________

The Right to Privacy includes both
A Woman's Right to Choose, and
The Right-to-Die-with-Dignity

Keep the Government OFF our bodies and OUT of our bedrooms !
________________________________________________________

[cry baby]

33. Welcome to DU, Liz!

:hi:

[LisaL]

87. No parallel? Hitler started killing disabled people first.

There is your parallel.

[POAS]

96. NOBODY is Killing Mrs. Schiavo

her mind and sould left long ago and only an empty vessel remains.

Comparisons to Hitler make NO case for Mrs. Schiavo other than to exploit emotions when reason goes against your arguement.

[mondo joe]

97. Did those people choose to end life support themselves? No

parrallel. And that you are comparing people to Nazis is a good admission that you know you're wrong.

[Dutch]

98. Excellent point.

I wonder if Rabbi Gellman is going to condemn his new buddies for the disgraceful way in which they are abusing the memory of the holocaust...

[fedupinBushcountry]

30. I felt sorry for them at first, BUT

now, after I have found out much more about the case and after what I have observed by the parents and their behavior throughout this tragedy, I have changed my mind.

I find it totally uncalled for that they released the videos of their daughter, who was a very private person, to be used over and over again, where is their conscious about what their daughter would think of them ?

To have a spokesperson, who in my mind has no compassion whatsoever for human life, who uses this pro-life agenda for his own personal gain. What were they thinking ?

Lastly, anyone with a little bit of common sense, would see right through these ridiculous stories used in these final pleas to the court. To me they were lies and something should be done about lying to the courts, that is shameful.

I am Catholic, and I know that the only one that will judge me on my judgement day is God, not the Pope or any other religious leader. It is between me and God and no one else, PERIOD.

I saw an interview by a woman who said if this were in any other state (accept maybe Texas IMO) that it would not be covered. She is right, for this happens somewhere in this country on almost a daily basis.

How many months will go by before we hear of a made for TV movie, and who will be the beneficiaries ?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

39. Wow, the voice of reason.

I was just wondering the same exact thing re a made-for-TV movie.

Do you happen to know if the Schiavo and Schindler families are at Ms. Schiavo's bedside at the same time, or do they visit with her in shifts? I heard they haven't spoken directly in years, but God knows what the truth actually is.

Welcome to DU.

[cmkramer]

83. According to newsreports, no

From what I've seen reported on the news, they are never in the room with her at the same time. Supposedly, if the Schindlers are in visiting and Michael Schiavo decides he wants to see Terri, they are notified that they need to leave.

[Javaman]

31. It's all about money...

There was a great article this week in that rag USAToday, believe it or not, examining just the reasons the schindlers are just another couple of shills for the corporate media.

The money that Terri received back in 1993 as part of a malpractice suit was used for her med bills. However, the schindlers back then just wanted half and in 2000 went so far to say that their daughter was in a "persistant vegitative state".

They were pissed off at Michael because he wanted to use the money for Terri's care. "After all", he had state, "it's her money".

I wish I could find the link, I will keep looking.

[spooky3]

41. there was a USAToday story that dealt with the money.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&ncid=676&e=1&u=/usatoday/20050325/ts_usatoday/feudmaybeasmuchovermoneyasprinciple

[mdb1954]

57. Here's an interesting site

Just do a search on Schiavo.Take note when some of these claims were file.

https://pubtitles.co.pinellas.fl.us/login/loginx.jsp?goto=/civil/KEInput.jsp

[NNN0LHI]

37. They are not evil. That sounds like something that Boosh would say

They may not be the sharpest tools in the shed (like a lot of us including myself) and have allowed themselves to be used by some real scum. But they are not evil. Hopefully they will snap out of it soon and realize what has actually happened to them. Give it a little time.

Don

[Mobius]

45. "I think the Schindlers are evil. I find how they are willing to prostitute

That opening line is not inflammatory but my post is. I have also been labeled a republican by some. NICE. I have what 4000 posts? An DU wants to hang me out to dry, because I think this case has been woefully mishandled. Someone even said why didn't you care about the soldiers dying in Iraq? Well i do, very much, but to discuss all things wrong with the world in one post, might be a tad lengthy. I also think that people want to jump on this Shiavo bandwagon, to be fighting for some cause. There is so much in the world to feel outrage for, so hey, lets pick this one! What about the wives, husbands and children that were gunned down by our soldiers in Iraq, with no trial, evidence or even really a reason to suspect them, other than their nationality?

*edited for typos*

[mondo joe]

46. I'd say your post contained blatant falsehoods, not simply

opinions.

You furthermore failed to event attempt to substantiate those claims.

[Mobius]

47. Well do you think she is dying fine?

You think she feels great? What do you think goes on when someone starves and dehydrates to death? Don't you think a shot of morphine would be more humane. To let someone pass this way is barbaric, and we have only her husband's word that this is what she wanted. Please forgive me if I didn't trust that the 19 courts, or 18 that sided with her former husbanddid the right thing. I realize the courts, especially the ones in Florida, have never made any mistakes before.

[mondo joe]

49. Do you want answers to your questions or do you want to rant?

You are operating under several erroneous impressions.

But I frankly doubt you are interested in accurate information.

[Mobius]

50. Actually i think most of the people here

are not interested in accurate information. It's hard to have your belief systems shattered.

[mondo joe]

52. To the contrary, many posters have referred to factual information.

Some have lied, some have made shit up, some have repeated made up shit they've heard.

I don;t know how you'd know what people make of accurate information since you haven't presented any.

But I do notice you failed to answer my question.

[Mobius]

54. just

as you have failed to anser mine

[mondo joe]

55. I told you I'd be willing to answer you. You want it?

1. "You think she feels great?"

There is no evidence she feels anything. Her cerebral cortex is almost completely atrophied and melted away.

2. "What do you think goes on when someone starves and dehydrates to death?"

Their body grows accustomed to being without nourishment or hydration and begins to shut down. This is not a painful process, and in fact is quite peaceful. There's much data on the matter, but as a precaution hospice generally provides morphine - this is sometimes considered more of a way of putting the family at ease than the patient.

3. "Don't you think a shot of morphine would be more humane."

I think that depends on the individual. Some would choose a lethal injection, some would not. I personally would not, but there are many who would.

4. "To let someone pass this way is barbaric, and we have only her husband's word that this is what she wanted."

That's not a question, but you're wrong. The court determined Terri's wishes - as courts are often called to do - and the evidence included the testimony of multiple witnesses.

5. "Please forgive me if I didn't trust that the 19 courts, or 18 that sided with her former husbanddid the right thing."

Also not a question, but in court cases the only valid question is this: was it legally correct? And this case, indisputably, was.

6. "I realize the courts, especially the ones in Florida, have never made any mistakes before."

If they made a legal mistake you have failed to cite it.

[Texasgal]

51. Please get the facts straight first

before you elicit such an emotional response.

First things first... Terri is not starving to death, she will likely die of dehydration first. Dehydration is not all that horrible either, it happens daily in the natural cycle of life, your body breaks down, it gets used to not having hydrants. This happens to dying people EVERYDAY. It is a natural bodily response.

Second thing, even though Terri cannot feel anything, the hospice IS giving her morphine.

Third thing.... It's not just her husbands words ( re: what Terri wanted ) there were at least 3 other people who also knew of her wish. Plus... do you REALLY think that Micheal Schivo just wants to put her down for the hell of it? Go through all this bullshit for fun??? 15 years of courts and now this crap?


Me thinks you have been brainwashed by the RW news.

[LisaL]

70. There were 3 people total, who testified about her not

wanting to live that way: Michael Schiavo, his brother and sister in law. They testified to this 7 years after the collapse.

[mondo joe]

71. And they were credible, consistent witnesses in a legally sound case.

Don't like the laws if you choose, but by any standard it's a legally sound finding.

[LisaL]

74. And they are all related to Michael Schiavo.

Who waited 7 years to make the wishes known. So, for 7 years, he was just fine ignoring the "wishes". What kind of husband would do that, if he really make her a promise? And why would he say during the malpractice trial he would spend the rest of his life taking care of her, if she didn't want to "live that way"?

[mondo joe]

76. Which is neither he nor there. It's a legally sound case.

And as you know, your faux question has been answered numerous times.

From the GaL Report:

Michael’s decision not to treat was based upon discussions and consultation with Theresa’s doctor, and was predicated on his reasoned belief that there was no longer any hope for Theresa’s recovery. It had taken Michael more than three years to accommodate this reality and he was beginning to accept the idea of allowing Theresa to die naturally rather than remain in the non-cognitive, vegetative state.

If you don't like the law don't like it - but the Schiavo case is legally sound.

[LisaL]

77. Yea, sure. If she was on death row on evidence such as this,

you would be the first one screaming how unfair it was. No hope for recovery and such is one thing. The other thing if she really told him anything at all about her wishes. Several people came forward saying that after the collapse, Mr. Schiavo told them he had no idea what Terri's wishes were, that they never discussed anything of the sort. How can this be considered "clear and convincing evidence"?

[mondo joe]

79. Once more, it's a legally sound case. Deny it if you like, but it's

a fact.

And I suggest you abandon telling me what I would do. You're not up to it.

[LisaL]

81. Well, would you be fine if someone was executed based only

on testimony of three people, all related, and with possible motive?

[mondo joe]

82. It's not an execution. If you wish to persist in demonstrating

how much law you don't understand, please feel free to do so.

But you should note the far-right has paid people QUITE a lot of money already in this case to prove how much THEY don't know. So you might want to reconsider adding to the body of fallacious arguments for free.

[Greylyn58]

65. I feel pity for both sides in this

I feel for Michael wanting to fulfill his promise to Terri and let her go in peace.

And I feel for the Schindlers who are losing their daughter and are so consumed with their own grief that they can't see how they are being used and manipulated by the "Rapture Rightists" and the Whore Media.

This whole event has all the makings of a Greek Tragedy.

[FM Arouet666]

68. It is difficult to seperate the emotion from the reality...

What do you know of these people, other than what is portrayed in the media. If you had a loved one which you belived had a chance for survival, regardless of what everyone else said about the prognosis, you might take extreme measures. Yes, they allowed politicians to take advantage, they are relentless in the struggle, perhaps to the point of lying about a recent verbalizaion. Does that make them evil? No, it makes them desperate.

I think they really believe that Terri can improve, they are unrealistic, and refuse or are incapable of understanding the medical facts. They look to their religion for guidance, and are strenghtened by it.

Are they evil? No, I see families like this all the time. I am a surgeon and deal with end of life issues day in and day out. Unrealistic families are common, many will go to any extreme to save a loved one, regardless of the diagnosis and medical facts. The Schindlers have forsaken reality out of love for their daughter, the true evil lies with those who have done the same for more selfish reasons.

[Heidi]

69. I think that in their grief, they're desperate . . .

and this has allowed them to be exploited by the religious right:

http://blog.bioethics.net/2005/03/have-conservatives-bought-bioethics.html

[WatchWhatISay]

86. I think they are under Randall Terry's control

Has anyone investigated any link between Tom DeLay and Randall Terry?
If there is one, I think it would help our cause a lot to expose it.

Anyone notice how easy it is to recognize these zealots? Not a single one of them can complete a sentence without the phrase "staring her to death"

[eagler]

90. The Schindlers are acting like parents who want to save their daugher

period. The evil ones are those who are using them for political gain.Normally I do side with most of you, but starving someone to death when they are still alive is murder.

[mondo joe]

92. We have the right to choose to remove

life support.

I wish people would be more careful with language.