I don't have a problem with religion being discussed/debated on DU.

[MoonRiver]

And I don't understand why others are upset about this. I try to be tolerant of others' beliefs as long as they are tolerant of mine. And I really haven't noticed much intolerance among other DUers. Sometimes a freeper sneaks in and we all go ballistic, but that's just what happens to freepers. I suppose some Catholics may be offended by comments regarding this business with Schiavo, but I hope they understand that most of us aren't insulting their faith, just the wackos trying to capitalize on her tragedy. Exceptions occur, of course, but in general I believe the dialog has been quite civilized.

[HEyHEY]

1. Prepare for the wrath of the flamewar gods!!!

Not to you, but your thread shall turn into the seventh circle of flamewar hell - so sayeth the HEyHEY.

[Bluebear]

2. So sayeth the flock

[Spazito]

4. LOL

*

[MoonRiver]

7. Oh well, win some get flamed some.

So go my days on DU.

[HEyHEY]

10. I doubt anyone will attack you

But grab a beer and a balcony seat so the splatter won't hit you.

[MoonRiver]

21. Will do.

:D

[moof]

23. Dang !!!!! When did they put in a balcony ?

[Just Me]

24. LOL

I RUN like hell to "the balcony" when everybody's screamin'.

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. Part of the problem is that some cannot believe a progressive...

... might find the removal of Teresa Schiavo's tube objectionable. It's a mob psychology thing--- "you're either with us or against us".

[lastliberalintexas]

17. No, part of the problem

is that some cannot believe a "progressive" would force Ms. Schiavo to undergo medical treatment to which she was opposed.




I figured someone had to prove HeyHey correct- it might as well be me! :evilgrin:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. And some have one set of beliefs for themselves and another handy

to impose on others.

[Cuban_Liberal]

38. Oh?

Who would that be?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. There's lots of hypocrites in the world

Did I strike a raw nerve?

[Cuban_Liberal]

63. No, you didn't.

There are lots of people and their 'posse' who are obsessed to the point of stalking other people, too.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

66. Stalking?

1) You posted to me.

2) You frequently post ideas antithetical to women's interests which is a matter of interest to me. So if you post thoughts on that point, I will probably show up and rebut you as is my privilege to do.

3) You have clearly advocated some issues on the side which favors oppression to women due to religious considerations while publicly acknowledging on this board that you don't hold your religion's dogma so DEAR when it pertains to your OWN quality of life.

[Cuban_Liberal]

67. Did I say it was you?

To turn your question back on you, did I strike a nerve?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. YOu posted some stuff about a posse and stalking to me

If you have a communication for someone else, why demonstrate some of that bravado and direct it to them?

[Cuban_Liberal]

71. It's a pretty crappy tactic to use, isn't it?

Some posters might want to consider that, when they post thinly-veiled PAs in the future, if they don't like being on the receiving end of of it.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

76. Perfect!

:yourock:

[Cuban_Liberal]

77. Thank you for sharing.

:hi:

[arwalden]

79. Beautiful! Nicely done!

:hi: :loveya:

[jonnyblitz]

84. ALRIGHT TEENA!!

:thumbsup:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

88. Damn!

somebody told the teacher!

[jonnyblitz]

89. you knew it wouldnt last long. it was priceless while it lasted.

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

90. Is there a smartass forum?

'Cuz I think that's where I belong.

[Solly Mack]

5. Thank the emoticon gods

grabs :popcorn:

:hide:

[Career Prole]

8. Synchonous popcorn smilies!

:D

[Solly Mack]

9. lol!

we'll need these :toast:

[Career Prole]

6. Time for one o' those new smilies!

:popcorn:

[Tux]

11. Flame

Yup. Flaming thread. Oh yeah. Go MSU!

[BuyingThyme]

12. What are the Catholics offended by?

(in a nutshell)

[MoonRiver]

22. Well, from my non-Catholic perspective,

I think we sometimes make fun of the church, the Pope, and various tenets of Catholicism. I have noticed that even when this isn't meant to be vicious some Catholics become offended. I've posted many caveats in my posts, stating that I don't want to offend them. I'm not emotionally invested in any religion, although I am very spiritual. So I can't put myself in their place, but I want to show respect.

[Spazito]

13. I agree but the religious discussion during the Schiavo

debacle that is ongoing has elicited strong responses on all sides thanks to the media hyping this up to a fever pitch.

I have read some very good threads on various religious issues that have been very informative but they have only occurred when there is not a hot-button issue attached to the discussion.

I find that when it gets hot, I rarely post but I do read and find, with a relatively few nasty, flame-bait posts exceptions, even these hot-button threads can be informative.

[Quixote1818]

14. I agree, disagreement and different viewpoints are essential for healthy

debate. ALL Religions and viewpoints should be respected accept those who are intolerant. It's much better to have a bunch of different viewpoints than everyone agreeing. If everyone had agreed on Terri Schiavo their would not have been any reason to gather information to use in debates.

With little disagreement you get the Bush cabinet and group-think! With group think you get poor decision making and a narrow viewpoint and that is dangerous.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

15. I don't mind it either, but I wish they'd keep Christ out of politics.

Freedom from religion should be as respected as freedom of religion.

Many DUers are Christians who believe that RELIGION IS A PERSONAL MATTER and don't want it shoved down their throats. They prefer to limit the discussion of religion to family and close friends, and on message boards for Christians and about religion. Not to mention that there are many NON-CHRISTIANS on DU who are here for POLITICAL DISCOURSE.

I am also BEYOND HORRIFIED to see many Christian DUers use the same rhetoric as the right-wing, and compare their plight to that of the Jews under the Nazis. That kind of hyperbole alienates those that would normally side with you, and gives your detractors plenty of fodder to attack you.

I'm Catholic, and I find myself siding with the non-believers precisely because I see some so-called progressive Christians using the same rhetoric as their fundamentalist counterparts.

[Amy6627]

18. Right on! I'm a Christian and I totally agree with you!

O8)

[madison2000]

25. I think it is no longer possible to discuss politics intelligently without

considering the role of religion. That may have been true 20-30 years ago in this country but it is certainly not true today. And it is probably true that the failure of our elected officials to understand the role of religion in other political entities, especially in the Middle East, has been our greatest weakness.

Religion is not just a personal matter, it affects the way we think and what we value. Both presidential candidates said as much in the debates. Its not just the politicians on the Right. Clinton said so, and so did Gore. Religion is a social matter, and it motivates many Christians to become involved in political change, including Martin Luther King. Saying that religion that is merely a personal matter gives it about the same significance as choosing shampoo. It means much more than that to some of us.

I have been following these conversations closely and I have never seen a Christian DUer use the same rhetoric as the right-wing, and compare their plight to that of the Jews under the Nazis. I have never seen a progressive Christian try to shove their religion down someone else's throat.

But last night you were the one who mocked progressive Christians as crybabies in my post. I'm not going to even try to make sense of your behavior. But please know that there are many of us who no longer feel welcome at DU, and its because of the kind of thing you did.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

30. Let me qualify where I'm coming from

I'm from New England, and people tend to keep their religion to themselves. It's all about privacy and MYOB, so this has colored my distaste for outward displays of evangelical fervor.

You haven't been paying much attention if you haven't seen the rhetoric of victimization and persecution here. When 90% of a country professes to believing in God, it's very hard to make your case that you're persecuted. For lack of a better word, crybabies will do for now.

Around Christmas, some progressive Christians on DU said stealing Baby Jesus from a manger scene is a hate crime like painting a swatstika on a synagogue. Do you believe this too?

One is a prank that is committed by teenagers every holiday season, and the other represents the systematic murder of six million Jews. That's an example of when this persecution rhetoric hits a hysterical note.

[madison2000]

32. I can't remember seeing "evangelical fervor" here at DU

and I haven't seen the rhetoric of victimization and persecution here either. I joined DU in late October. Around Christmas I would have been deep in the Election 2004 forum, so I did not see any posts about stealing Baby Jesus being a hate crime. This is the first I've heard of it. You've done a lovely job projecting this onto me and others who probably also don't know anything about it.

All I can speak for is what has happened to me here at DU in the last couple of days. I didn't deserve any of the shit that was dumped on me for the posts I've made, and you were one of the dumpers.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

34. You're personalizing the argument, and I'm not projecting anything

onto you. I speak very plainly and bluntly.

This is a message board. If you're hurt, shocked, or horrified by any of the subject matter, you can choose not to read the thread. I don't like reality TV shows, so I turn the channel.

Here I am in the Lounge posting wiseassery:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=2922522

How can this be perceived as 'dumping'? And BTW, it's the ONLY time I posted on the same thread as you. Sooooo, methinks the comment about victimization may have a kernel of truth?

[madison2000]

36. Sorry, I thought you posted the baby picture

But the point of that thread was that it was a poll asking about WHO is ostracized at DU. I did not predict that "christians" would come out so far ahead of every other category, but they did. I did not make any point about feeling that I as a Christian was being ostracized. But the more the poll grew, the more defensive and hostile people started posting towards Christians.

It wasn't because of anything that was said (like stealing baby Jesus is a hate crime) - it was because of the way the poll turned out. People obviously didn't like to see it so they rationalized it an beat it into the ground. That was part of what gave rise to the whole discussion- not Christians being crybabies, but people not liking the poll results which said that over 40% of those who voted, including some non-Christians, think that Christians are ostracized at DU. Its a damn high number.

[Zenlitened]

39. This picture?

And if so, what made you think it was about you?

[madison2000]

43. If follows from the flow of the discussion in the post quite clearly

that this is about Christians. Your comments in other threads today leave no doubt about your position.

[Zenlitened]

45. Fascinating. It truly is fascinating.

And illustrative of a wider problem. That you would personalize one photo and one word to the point that, 24 hours later you are wrongly castigating another DUer over it.

And bear in mind, whatever the value of hindsight, today's posts were not part of the context of that photo and its subject line last night.

Obviously, you and I disagree on the issue of criticism of religion, but to make that leap last night and carry the grudge into today... I just don't think that's very healthy.

In this world, sadly, if we seek to take offense, we are all but guaranteed to find it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

55. Take my advice: step away from this thread

someone is trying to start a shitstorm.

And yes, that someone would interpret messages personally on a highly impersonal message board is disturbing to say the least....

[Zenlitened]

60. Well, I'm sorry that you had to take shit over my post from last night.

Oy! Does kind of make the mind reel, doesn't it?

:pals:

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

40. There are more Christians than non-Christians on DU

so of course you're poll turned out the way it did.
I think your interpretation is colored by your perceived victimization.

If you don't want to be poked fun at, don't post a serious thread like that in the Lounge. Post it in GD, and you'll get less flippant responses. You should bypass those threads you perceive as bashing Christians, or at least put the repeat offenders on ignore. That way you can enjoy your experience at DU.

I have Christian and non-Christian buddies on DU. I come to DU for political discourse, and I define myself as an American first, a Democrat and a citizen. If you wish to define yourself religiously first, maybe you should post on a religious messageboard. :shrug: The primary purpose of DU is political discussion.

[madison2000]

42. well thanks for the free cambridge psychoanalysis

And for putting me in my place. I needed that. And after all, you know me so well.

Edit: More Christians than non-Christians on DU
The poll was asking about the most ostracized group, not whether people are Christian or not. There are non-Christians who agree that the Christians are taking a lot of shit around here, and Christians who voted for another group.

Not a scientfic poll.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

44. How does this qualify as psychoanalysis?

"If you don't want to be poked fun at, don't post a serious thread like that in the Lounge. Post it in GD, and you'll get less flippant responses. You should bypass those threads you perceive as bashing Christians, or at least put the repeat offenders on ignore. That way you can enjoy your experience at DU."

That was advice from a veteran.

Since this conversation has taken a defensive, irrational, and juvenile turn, I think I'm going to end it. Have a nice evening! :hi:

Oh, and thanks for the slam against Cambridge! I bet you've never even been here.

[madison2000]

47. "perceived victimization"

That's totally patronizing.

I have already made the point that it is no longer possible to discuss politics without discussing religion, so obviously I do not approach things in the disjointed way that you do.

And yes, I've been to Cambridge.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

51. You mean:

"it is no longer possible FOR YOU to discuss politics without discussing religion"

Most of us on DU are here for political discussion. It really doesn't have to be that difficult.

As far as being patronizing, you're reading a lot of power into my words.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

57. Thank you-this has been an exercise in frustration

[Texasgal]

59. Yeah... no kidding.

I am sorry that you have become a target, it's pretty silly IMHO!

* Now she's telling us we can post too. :rofl:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

64. Rational arguments are useless here

:eyes:

I wonder if it's OK that I responded to you. Do you think I'll get in trouble? :wow:

[Texasgal]

65. I'd watch it if I were you!

NO POSTING IN THE MIDDLE OF CONVERSATIONS!!!!

WHAT-EVAH! :scared:

[jonnyblitz]

37. give it up kathy....you are feeding that persecution thingy

that seems to be going on here. you are a damn good christian basher considering that you are a christian yourself and all. reminds me of the time I, a gay person, was called a homophobe here at DU for criticizing gay wingnut andrew sullivan. :crazy:

[madison2000]

41. your input not needed here

:wtf:

[jonnyblitz]

46. umm. EXCUSE ME! do i need your permission to post on a

thread? I can't believe you!! :wow:

[madison2000]

48. you interrupted a conversation

as if I were not even in it. That's rude, so if you're rude, that's what you should expect in return.

[donco6]

50. I thought he made a good point.

So there.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

58. That's NOT his middle name: it's Jesus H. Christ

:-)

[Texasgal]

54. Ummmm...

Talk about rude!

[Fenris]

68. No one is forbidden from adding their thoughts to a conversation, Ma'am

This is a free and open board - all "conversations" are public. Please do not attack other posters for speaking their minds. Everyone is free to challenge everyone else's arguments without restricition.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fenris]

80. Yikes.

There's a reason (several, now that I think of it) why I avoid even lurking in that forum. :scared:

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fenris]

82. Nice to see Christian love is alive and well.

:(

[jonnyblitz]

83. she is getting nasty in PMs to others, fortunately I am being

spared those so far. :eyes:

[Fenris]

86. If you receive PMs like that, report them immediately.

That sort of harrassment is not taken lightly.

[jonnyblitz]

87. yup I am sure the people receiving them are doing that.

I havent gotten any yet. :P

[Kathy in Cambridge]

49. Who are you to dictate whether he can respond or not?

that's not very Christian...

[Swamp Rat]

69. What the HELL do you mean by "your input not needed here?!?"

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swamp Rat]

85. LOL! "Interrupted???"

Wait a second... someone is interrupting me right now...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. Some people thought it was a hate crime when a statue was

vandalized at a Catholic Church...there was no symbolism (you know, like a swatika at a temple, nothing burned, just a vandalized statue)

[Rowdyboy]

28. Kathy, you're right, but sometimes, all of us fall into the "victim"

mindset. People will lash out whenever they feel threatened. We just need to remember that this is an internet message board-nothing more. If I see something that offends me, I USUALLY just keep reading and ignore it. When I'm in a bad mood though, I tend to have less patience and can get snarky with my responses. Again, so what? It's just an internet message board. No real harm done by offending someone's delicate sensibilities.

If Christians (and I am one) want to dicuss religion in GD thats fine. They should expect to be challenged and be prepared to defend their positions-just as Wes Clark or John Kerry or Hillary Clinton supporters must defend their positions. Why post someting if you're not interested in defending your position?

on edit: I may be wrong, but my understanding is that GD is for discussing ANY subject, GD-politics is strictly for political discussion.

[zanne]

33. Right on point, Kathy in Cambridge.

Sometimes I feel like I'm back in grammar school and there's a nun with a ruler who's about to whack me if I don't say nice things about Jesus. One aspect of this religion in politics thing that I don't think has been explored is how much religion is damaged by politics. I'm not a religious person and I don't understand why anyone would want to pollute their religion by injecting politics into it. I guess I just don't "get it", but that's the way I see it.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

74. That would be me. lol!

"Not to mention that there are many NON-CHRISTIANS on DU who are here for POLITICAL DISCOURSE."

[jdots]

16. I think we must now set a good example for DU

we may not post anthing that will provoke replys of any kind..(not) The Terri thing is just one of the issues that will be media frenzy.As dems maybe we should try to let people believe what they believe as long as it doesn't get totalitarian.

[Baclava]

19. Logic plays no part in this case.

Symbolism. And shenanigans.

[EVDebs]

20. Founding Fathers got around it all with Steganography and

their mostly being Freemasons. God became TGAOTU (The Great Architect of the Universe) and tolerance of monotheistic religions became de riguer as part of the 'enlightenment'.

The open secrecy of the Freemasons, note that the street layouts and the Mall are in the <G> with the Washington Monument as the "G" and the WH to the north, Lincoln Memorial to the west and Jefferson Memorial to the south, and the US Capitol in the east, where wisdom originates.

The stupidity of that movie National Treasure aside, a better documentary could be made relating to the hidden Freemasonic symbols dotting Wash DC.

[JAbuchan08]

26. I think its because some people forget that religion is a choice and an

ideology therefore subject to the same criticisms that other choices and ideologies are. They seem to think religion is somehow genetic and they can't help having been born into the right one.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ExCiber]

31. For starters.....

One thing I do know is that making fun of any person of their beliefs will get you nothing but an argument. If you really want to change how someone thinks you have to be open to other ideas and respect what is being said.

I offer my friendship to everybody and have some friends that defiantly fall into the fundamentalist category. As friends we discuss many different things in an open, honest and most of all civil manner. Over time I have managed to make some see things differently, but it's not an overnight transition. I admit that there's one couple that I've totally given up on, but we're still friends that don't often discuss religion or politics.

Celebrate the diversity of life. My friends include bikers, convicts, strippers, prostitutes, bankers, geeks, liberals, uber conservatives, fundamentalists, you name it.

Take some time, talk WITH (not to) other people and you may be able to not only change their way of thing, but see something yourself.

[Dark]

35. Yes, I'm sure a fundamentalist would be willing to listen to me.

They'd run for cover as soon as they shook my hand and saw my rainbow bracelet, or flee when they heard my lisp.

I can't stand to listen to conservative fundamentalist Xtians tell me I'm going to hell because of the way I was born, and that they are going to heaven because of where they were born.

Liberal Xtians who complain about being lumped together with conservative Xtians should try actively denouncing their more reactionary religious relatives. But they don't.

Flip through some posts by liberal Xtians. They'll say 'Oh, I was so angry about my pastor calling abortionists babykillers and the congregation responding 'amen' that I almost walked out of my church. But a few minutes later the collection plate came around and I calmed myself down as I put a check for fifty dollars in.'

These people then bitch about why liberals assume that all Xtians are 'reactionaries'.

Diversity by itself is BAD. Only when diversity is mixed with TOLERANCE is it a good thing, otherwise it's just an excuse to start a conflict.

So, when those fucking superstitious cowards finally fucking walk up to the pulpit of that fucking bigoted demagogue spewing hatred out of his fucking ass of a mouth and slap the shit out of his fucking face, then I will start to consider them separate from those hackjob Xtian fundamentatlist

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. What about those of us who make a point of NOT attending churches

run by bigots?

[Moderator]

91. Locking

Unfortunately, this topic has gone on a tangent. Feel free to re-post.