An alternate - and important perspective - for DU Christians

[southlandshari]

This was posted in the Lounge, but I have the green light from the OP to post a link here.

I, like many other liberal Christians on DU, find some of the posts lashing out against Christianity offensive and narrow-minded. But I found this thread to be very helpful in my understanding of where some of the negativity about Christianity may come from.

I think it is worth a read for anyone who would rather work towards understanding each other than keep fighting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2933144

[southlandshari]

1. Self kick

I promise this is the only time I'll kick my own thread - just want to keep the link to the much more important Lounge thread visible for other GD faithful a little longer than 10 minutes!

[RevolutionaryActs]

4. I want to thank you for being so cool

And truly getting what I'm saying. :yourock:

:hug:




(also this might be a little kick.. shh don't tell. :P)

[southlandshari]

5. What I like most about DU

is that - if you pay close attention and are here long enough - you will find yourself in absolute agreement with another DUer on a particular issue despite the fact that you might have little else in common in life. And those are the moments that offer us all hope, regardless of religious or political affiliation.

I have always been far more interested in the common ground that exists between people than I am in the points upon which people differ. Life is a lot more interesting - and, I'll admit, challenging - on those terms!

You have a lot to teach those who are willing to listen, Rev. I'm glad I went beyond my comfort zone on this one and opened your thread!

[SheepyMcSheepster]

2. it's a good post check it out, kick!

[southlandshari]

3. I hope others will check it out

The thread makes some excellent points about the daily "treatment" of atheists and agnostics in our society that I - a devout Christian - believe illustrate an important contrast to the "treatment" of Christianity on DU.

[RevolutionaryActs]

6. Kick.

I'm shameless. :kick:

[Az]

7. Kick

[southlandshari]

12. Thanks

You had some great posts in the linked thread as well!

[Bluebear]

8. Kick and original proudly nominated

Let's hear it for civil dialogue.

[RevolutionaryActs]

11. Ooh I thank you for that.

I can't believe I made it to the greatests page, so weird. :o

[manic expression]

9. Very interesting post....

my compliments to the poster and thanks for putting it in GD.

[RevolutionaryActs]

10. Thank you.

I love southlandshari for posting the link, since I was too scared to myself. :o

[BrklynLiberal]

13. kick..and thanks for the heads up

Definitely a thread worth checking out.
I added my vote for the greatest.

[southlandshari]

14. Frustrated

I'm a little disappointed that so few seem to be taking an interest in the linked thread, particularly so few DUers who have posted about being offended by posts about Christianity from non-Christians.

Thanks for your kick. Maybe someone will kick this again tomorrow and there will be more interest. My whole point in linking this was to help us listen and learn from each other!

[BrklynLiberal]

15. Maybe it is the late hour. If we kick it again in the morning it will get

more attention.

[southlandshari]

16. I'll let someone else do the honors

Don't want to self-kick this to death. I just really feel that this is a perspective that others NEED to take into consideration.

[Pithlet]

17. Well, I'm giving it another kick. This atheist appreciated your post.

I want some other people who are a tad hypocritical on this subject to see this. I'm a little bit hurt. I was accidently directed to the Christian forum and the first post I see is "Atheists are Douchebags" We need some understanding from both sides, that's for sure.

[southlandshari]

18. Common ground

Thanks for the kick, Pithlet, from a fellow resident of the South, Nancy Grace-hater, and (given the hour) night owl!

See, we ALL share common ground in some way. I am rapidly coming to believe that it is the atheists on this board that are the first to recognize that.

I've made some new friends through this exchange - thanks to you all who have taken time to reply!

[Pithlet]

19. Common ground, indeed :)

I may not be a Christian, but I ascribe to a lot of the tenets of that faith simply because they're the right thing to do. Liberalism, if you think about it, has a lot of common ground with what Christ advocated. It's just a shame that there are a lot of vocal groups that pervert the religion to their own ends and willingly ignore His message.

I think that sometimes people let their feathers get too ruffled by a select few, and that goes for both sides.

[Gelliebeans]

47. Thanks shari

from another atheist. Revs post was so meaningful to some of us and your promotion of a thread that may share a different point of view is so important :)

[CubsFan1982]

20. Please don't mislead people.

I explicitly stated in that thread that SOME, not ALL, SOME atheists were douchebags. Perhaps it would have been better if I had said "acting like douchebags," but I stand by my comment.

[Pithlet]

21. Sorry. The "some" doesn't make it better.

There are assholes who happen to be atheists. But the atheism isn't a componant in their assholness. Like I said in your thread, most of the time I see a poster bashing Christians, I've noticed that they've been assholes in other areas of discussion as well.

There were also other hurtful responses in your thread. I'm sorry, but "I pray for them"?! Our discussions about the oppression we face are "whining"? That whole thread reaked of the attitudes against atheism that I face all the time in real life.

It just seems hypocritical to me. A lot of the bashing I've seen that has been brought to attention by Christians used the qualifier "some" also. I don't think that always makes it better.

[CubsFan1982]

22. Condescension and "intellectual superiority" is what I have a problem with

Not all atheists act this way, but a LOT do. How stupid and moronic we must be to believe in a myth. This is what becomes tiresome to those of faith.

[Pithlet]

24. At least you're able to express your faith openly

in real life without fear of being mocked, or worse. I'm not defending that bashing. Like I said, many of the posters who say stuff like that are either a. An asshole to begin with or b. sick of the crap they get from some Christians on a daily basis, or both of the above.

I know it can't be easy to see those things posted about your faith. The people who say stuff like that are wrong. Just don't try to pass that stuff off on the rest of us. It isn't right when Atheists do it, and it isn't right when you do it, either. Especially considering what atheists go through.

I'd be willing to give a minority a little bit of slack considering the crap they have to put up with on a daily basis. Just try to remember that you are in the majority, and you are free to express your beliefs without fear of ridicule, or losing your job, or never being able to run for office, or worry that people that you love and respect will see you as a lesser person if you admit your faith. Most of my family don't know I'm an atheist. I'd be willing to bet many of us are like that. Have some consideration. That is all I'm asking. Your post "(Some)Atheists are Douchbags" was a slap at all of us, along with many of the comments posted in that thread. Have some consideration for the REST of us who don't mock you, despite the fact that so many of the people who belong to your faith make life hard for us.

[southlandshari]

25. Please stop it

Being the original poster in this thread probably doesn't give me any special rights here, but I'm still going to make a plea to those who would let this thread digress into a series of jabs against either atheists OR Christians to PLEASE take it somewhere else. There are 50 other current threads in which this fight is already taking place. Please don't do this here.

The whole point of this thread was to highlight a thread in another forum that I felt might help other progressive Christians (like me) get a feel for the perspective some of the atheists on DU may have. I still have some hope that there may be even ONE other Christian DUer who finds this worthwhile.

[Behind the Aegis]

Control issues?!

I am just teasing ya! :) I think this was a very nice post as was the one you referred to. BTW...GRITS rock! It is people like you that give me hope! :)

[southlandshari]

33. hey, BtA!

Thanks for that - I'll be your rockin' GRIT anytime!

:pals:

[CubsFan1982]

26. I've asked that the offending post be deleted.

Carry on with the Schiavo death watch.

[southlandshari]

27. Thanks.

You didn't have to delete anything, and my post wasn't aimed only at you. But I do appreciate your willingness to let go of the fight in this thread.

Don't really get the Schiavo death watch comment, as it has not been an issue of interest for me, but if it was a parting shot that felt good for you....

:shrug:

[spindoctor]

23. I don't take offens to anti-religious comments anymore

Lord knows (no pun intended) that some churches brought this upon us.

Hell (no pun intended), I have not associated myself with a church in fifteen years for many of the same reasons.

However, generalizations are always bad. Just because the reverend Fallwel, the Pope, Ayatollah Khomeini and I share some common ground does not put me in their corner.

Religion is rapidly being promoted to the status of sex in victorian England. It's only barely tolerable and heaven forbid (npi) that you display it publicly.

Oh well.

[hfojvt]

28. having been both an atheist and a Christian

I cannot see the oppression against atheists. Facing a Bible in a hotel room is some kind of burden?
When I was an atheist, I engaged in vigorous breakfast, lunch and dinner debates with fundamentalist friends. They said "I will pray for you" and I said "bah, humbug".
If anyone was going to oppress me it would be the cute and fuzzy bunny crowd - the jocks and princesses who would mock me as a skinny geek, ignore me as "not one of the beautiful people", and neither acknowledge our common humanity nor include me in any of their reindeer games. If questioned, they might admit to some religion or other, but they were no more Christian than I was, almost certainly less so.
Nobody really has it easy in this country except the recognized members of the elite, whether Christian or atheist. A perennial prom queen went to the same church I did, and the pastor's daughter was part of the A-group. Were we great pals because of our common church? Not hardly. A male member of that church began bullying me in the 8th grade after I would not let him copy my science paper.
My point is, that even being part of the same Presbyterian church did not make us friends, much less would common Christianity.
I have lived in small towns where my church attendance or lack thereof has never gotten me a decent job, nor prevented it.
Again, I am not seeing the advantages of being, or claiming Christianity, nor the challenges of being, or claiming atheism.

[Pithlet]

29. Edit: read your post and answered my own question.

I figured you were now a Christian. I've heard other converts from atheists to Christians who've said the same thing.

Interesting, but I never hear current atheists ever make that claim. I wonder if there is some selective forgetting going on for some people who've converted. Because I'm not imagining things.

[hfojvt]

30. yes, christian to atheist to christian

and perhaps a college environment is more tolerant of atheists. But I was also a non-mormon in Utah after college. I cannot speak for office jobs, but on the factory floor I cannot remember any talk about religion at all. It may be on a personal level too, because my family is geographically distant - their knowledge, or acceptance, of my religion, or lack thereof, has not been relevant.

[Pithlet]

31. I'm sorry.

Sorry if I came off as defensive. I've had a lot of discussions trying to get others to understand what it is like to be an atheist in the US and some were a bit dismissive. I wouldn't expect that all atheists have the same experience in life. I think that family, geography, and other factors can make a difference.

[countryjake]

32. Nice to see a rational defense for a change!

Unfortunately, I was stuck reading for a long time this morning in a pretty wild fiasco of a post called "Why it's time to stop provoking Christians on DU" & early into that one, my post reflected my general belief that everyone's spiritual feelings are to be treated with respect. However, as things heated up, it became apparent that many would willingly toss out any tolerance, if the choice came to winning or losing an election, or if "the looks" of the party rested on accepting us ragged, wild-mouthed heathens. My other post in there stated my more rabid belief that once the shit hits the fan in this country, non-Christians will have a tough row to hoe, as will all minorities, & those people who choose to ignore actual oppression brewing, for the sake of garnering a few votes, will be rudely awakened.

With the Easter story fresh in the hearts of so many this past week, seems to me that one lesson from that tale was what can happen when pals are called upon to acknowledge an "unsavory" friend...a friend who represents & upholds everything they also believe in but who bears that unpopular stigma of being too different, too radical, for them to admit any association with.

We all need to learn from mistakes like that, identify our true opponents, & focus our energies on building respect & unity with all who face that same possible "crucifixion" of righteous ideals.

[southlandshari]

34. Great post

Thanks! I'm a little disappointed that the fighting threads get so much action while one that talks about mutual understanding languishes. I guess I was hoping more of my liberal Christian friends on DU would take an interest in hearing an interesting perspective from an atheist.

I haven't given up yet!

[countryjake]

42. Seems as tho some can't get past gut reactions...

although I also suspect a few to be doing it for sport. I'm trying to avoid the blatant bashing posts, but sometimes they flare up so fast...whew! It's also a hard discussion to have without face-to-face contact; I've had easier conversations & made more headway with my fundie neighbors than I've witnessed on here between progressive thinkers. Fact is, it needs to be hashed out & ignoring a serious threat that's looming before us which has the potential to forever drastically change the lives of so many just doesn't compute with being a Liberal.

[southlandshari]

44. The comfort zone

is something we all have to be willing to go beyond in order to build a community (and political party) that genuinely respects diversity of opinion.

Your thoughts are right on target in my book. Our willingness to accept those slightly different from us is nothing to write home about. It is when we can see past truly significant, uncomfortable differences, and find meaning in those values and goals we do share that the power to change the world is in reach!

I really appreciate your contributions here.

[countryjake]

45. Thanks!

One of the problems with this forum appears to me is that many have no contact, whatsoever, with any born-agains, fundamentalists, or any Christians at all, of any persuasion, in real life, & the same for those whose community does not include other religions or non-believers. If this is our only exposure to such diversity, it's bound to get ugly.

I have no belief in "evil" & to me, everyone, basically, has a good heart & once we begin to step outside ourselves & figure out why others feel & think the way they do, we'll start to make headway in building a mighty united front against those who had it all figured out a long time ago!

[Merope215]

35. Thanks for posting this here

(in an attempt to keep the thread up :P) because I thought it was a really good thread, too, and a new perspective on a lot of things I hadn't considered before. And thanks to you too RevActs, for bringing it up!

:applause:

[southlandshari]

36. thanks for the help

I'm sometimes afraid it is a losing battle, trying to get people to really listen to one another before lashing out. But there were at least a handful of people last night that found some common ground on this, so I haven't completely lost hope!

[loudestchick]

37. I'll give this link a little kick-a-roo. I read the lounge thread while I

was over there earlier this morning. It is terrific that a "lounge" thread is getting some attention in GD.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

38. one more KICK! never hurt anyone

:kick:

[BrklynLiberal]

39. kick

[southlandshari]

40. I have this vague feeling

that you and I sparred a bit on another thread sometime in the past few months (probably about the South, but I don't remember).

Do you remember this?

[BrklynLiberal]

41. Nope. I don't remember having any negative feelings about the South :)

Any specifics? But I do think it might have been someone else.

[southlandshari]

43. Ooooo - shame on me!

I may have been subconciously stereotyping based on your DU user name. I see "BrklynLiberal" - and I think, 'heck, that must have been one of those blue state elitists I dueled with after the election last fall.'

Sorry! But know this - if you were one of "them", chances are you and I still walked away from a red state-blue state thread on good terms. I was so upset by some of the red-state-hate crap posted at the time that I really went head to head with some other DUers. I am thankful that several of them stuck with me (and I with them) long enough for the dialogue to run out of anger and turn towards mutual respect.

So, my point in asking whether we'd clashed in the past was to try - again - to illustrate that everyone on DU can find some common ground if they are willing to listen to others.

:pals:

[BrklynLiberal]

46. Well, if we had clashed, It has been long forgotten.

:pals:
On Edit: Mostly my feeling for blue voters in red states was of deep respect and awe. You guys faced, and in fact, still face challenges that those of us in states like NY could not even imagine.