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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:50 PM
Original message
Is the term fundie a slur?
I used it in a thread this week-end. It was done to distinguish between the type of church I was referring to and other Christians. I am a Christian, and I believe that true Christianity is beautiful.

I know, I know...who am I to say what is true Christianity. Maybe nobody. But any "religion" that ignores all teachings about the poor and helping others is not true Christianity TO ME.

Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. It is and it isn't.
In it's purist form, it's a abbreviated version of "fundamentalist," and, therefore, not really a slur.
But, given that I - and most others here - only use the term, "fundie," when describing these whack jobs that are fawning and fainting over Terri Schiavo and haven't lifted a finger to stop the carnage in Iraq, then I'd call it a slur.
Hope this helps.
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seriousstan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. No more than tard.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. they call themselves fundamentalist, lots of letters fundie
is easier. that is all it is for me. nothing more
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. It is when I use it.
Posted in the interest of full disclosure.
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Afje Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Certainly
That is the only reason I use the term. IMO, these bullies don't deserve any respect, because they are not showing any to anyone else.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm trying to stick with 'the Radical Religious Right.'
I find myself muttering 'fundie' (to myself) when my anger overcomes me.

I do understand, though, that one can be an evangelical (wanting to spread the Word), and still be a progressive Christian.

I also understand that one can be a fundamentalist, and still not want to enshrine one's personal religious beliefs in the law, forcing all to live per that view.

I support my progressive Christian friends to the maximum.

I'm trying to avoid 'fundie.'
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
36. But it's always been my understanding...
that a fundamentalist is someone who strictly adheres to a literal interpretation of the Bible. Given the amount of misogyny, homophobia, etc. contained in the Book's verses, I fail to see how a Biblical literalist can be progressive. If such a person is courteous enough to keep their religion a private matter and not join the Radical Right Campaign for Theocracy (TM), I'm certainly grateful, but nevertheless I still can't approve of the hateful aspects of their personal philosophy.

That is fundamentalism and evangelicalism aren't necessarily the same thing.
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truthseeker1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. It shouldn't be - but then neither should the term liberal
When my fundie mom pokes fun at me and calls me "liberal" I poke fun back at her and call her fundie. I don't think she even really realizes what it means but she goes along with it acting like she does. She thinks she's jeering at me by using the word "liberal" when that word shouldn't be a bad thing. I suppose liberals have created the same stigma around the word fundie.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't think it is
Fundamentalist means somebody who believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible. That is, one who believes the Bible is divinely inspired and inerrant.

"Fundie" is just a shortening of the term. I prefer to use the term "idiot".
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. LOL
ahem...lolololololol
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. What a dookus!
:) Thanks for making me laugh. We're getting too serious around here!
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm a Christian....When I say "fundie" it is a negative....You owe nothing
to anyone-we're on the same side
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. Thanks
I wasn't sure. A lot of people have been getting offended lately.
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robertarctor Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. I dunno.
I always thought the term "Church Nazi" was more appropriate for these folks.
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
11. "Fundies" consider everything other
than their own reflection a slur.

To worry if this word is a slur is to promote religo-fascists to an equal status with democracy. If it is a slur, I say toooo bad crybabies. The "fundies," regardless of sect, are basically immolationists....they want to fire bomb everything and take all of us with them. That's their Nirvana. Phooie on them fundies!!!
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. I feel ya!
I've said it many times before, but I'll say it again. It is exactly because of my religious beliefs, not in spite of them, that I am politically left-of-center.

I really do belive we have an obligation to lift up the least among us, and create an equal society where everyone has a chance to make it.

And I believe that if we really say we want to promote a culture of life, then we need to have a real conversation in this country about universal health care, the increasing number of children going to be hungry, etc.

I don't see my Christian values represented in a lot of the folks professing to be Christians today.
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morcatknits Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Bingo!
If you take every principle mentioned by Christ, you have the exact opposite of conservatism and fundamentalism. Look around the world and take note of who are all the most dangerous people. They are almost all fundamentalists of one sort or the other. There was never any reason to think that if fundamentalists every thought they had some power, they'd try to use it lawlessly. Fundamentalist Christians are no different. In that way, I guess "fundie" is no more a slur than fundamentalist.
morcatknits
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Exactly right!
Christ admonished us in the Bible that as we did it for the least among us, we did it for Him, and as we did it NOT for the least among us, we did it NOT for Him.

But our friends on the right seem to have forgotten that. I don't see how George Bush can say w/ a straight face he wants to promote a culture of life, when he's done absolutely nothing to address the genocide in Sudan.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. I have no respect for hate beliefs
Whether they are cloaked in Bible quotes or not. Fundies are cult members that spread hate (Gays are sinners who will burn in hell, all non Christians will burn in hell, etc).

The Christian Identity White Supremacists also claim to have "Christian" beliefs. Should we be required to respect their beliefs too?

This whole idea that we should respect all religious beliefs is BS. I also don't respect any misogynist beliefs. So what if they are vieled in a religious belief. Calling something a religious belief doesn't automatically make it worthy of respect.

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. and what if that hatred is not religious?
Do you have the same reaction?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Did you read my post?
I stated, whether they are cloaked in Bible quotes or not. I do not respect oppressing people regardless of where the justification comes from.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. of course
but all the examples you provided you unidentified as Christian, including White Supremacists. They may articulate a religious-based ideology, I don't know. What I do know is that race and racism are a product of science. Race is a cultural construction that developed with the Enlightenment. It was, and is, rooted in scientific disciplines that imagine differences among people based on biological categories rather than the more traditional hierarchy of orders. I found it odd that you would identify a clearly secular phenomenon, racism, as Christian in orientation.

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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Race is a social construct. Racism is not rooted in Science
Edited on Tue Mar-29-05 01:14 AM by ultraist
It's rooted in the white male patriarchial paradigm where certain power holders used oppression and violence to maintain control. Slavery is noted in the Bible, however. Moreover, Christianity is a part of that worldview.

I remarked on the Christian Identity KKK because they discriminate against Jews, Gays, and any non Christians, not just Blacks. They use Biblical quotes to justify their hate.

The slight biological differences were not discovered 300 years ago. :eyes:
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I would not be so quick to roll eyes / Race, Science, and Culture
Edited on Tue Mar-29-05 02:51 AM by imenja
When it is evident you are unfamiliar with the literature of the history of race and racism. What you suggest in your post above is a quite understandable and common misconception of race.

First: "The slight biological differences were not discovered 300 years ago. :eyes:"

All critical theorists, sociologists, and anthropologists now understand that race is not biological. Race is instead the set of ideas that prompts you to look at someone and identify them racially. In the US, we understand blackness in terms of an absence of racial purity, whiteness. In other countries, like Brazil and the Dominican Republic, black and white are defined differently. A person considered white or brunette in Brazil might find themselves called Hispanic or black in the United States. That person's biology does not change during the course of a nine hour flight. Rather, they step into a culture that understands race differently from their own. Race is thus that cultural understanding, not the biology itself. The phenotypical differences among people of African descent are often greater than between those who sit on that culturally dividing line between white and black. What characteristics do we focus on to define race? You don't think about it, because it is assumed, automatic. But if you travel to a country where race is defined differently, you will see that the physical characteristics they focus on are not the same ones you use. All of this operates on the level of semi-consciousness. It is a product of culture rather than deliberate thought. PBS had an interesting series on race last summer. I was glad to see such ideas finally make it beyond academia.


That you refer to race as biological is itself a product of scientific racism. Biological categories of race only emerged in the 18th century. Race as a biologically distinct and hierarchal assignment signaling superiority and inferiority did not exist before the Enlightenment. This certainly is not to say that inequality and oppression did not exist. They most certainly did. In fact, religion was the most common means of assessing one's superiority: Christians above Indian and Africans, etc.... The Enlightenment changed that. It gave rise to scientific disciplines that categorized people according to these new biological and racial categories. The word Caucasian was first used during this time to refer to Europeans from the caucuses. The term was coined by a scientist to describe the people he saw as most beautiful and hence superior. Hierarchical notions of race became entrenched in eighteenth century Germany and British North America in similar ways. It was during the nineteenth-century, however, that racism reached its culmination in terms of a fully articulated ideology justified by science. In this country, historians note, scientific racism emerged in response to the ideals of the Enlightenment and the Declaration of Independence in particular that proclaimed all men to be created equal. If all men were equal, how could a significant part of the population be held in bondage? The answer was provided by scientists in the leading universities around the nation: Africans were not men; they were in fact closer to apes. These used a wide array of scientific measurements in order to create this notion.

The historian George Fredrickson describes this evolution of race and racism very succinctly in _Racism: A Short History_ (Princeton University Press). Amazon has a search inside function if you would like to browse through the book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691116520/qid=1112077245/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-6521706-3400603

(If you interested in ideas of race, I strongly encourage you to read this little book. It is highly readable and compact. Frederickson has many other works on race, but this is the most accessible. )

Inequalities, hierarchies, and oppression existed long before Westerners imagined race. But the criteria for that hierarchy differed. As you point out, slavery is discussed in the Bible. You will note that race is not. And some reading on comparative slavery would quickly inform you that slavery only became a racial institution in the Americas. Slavery had been practiced for thousands of years with no racial category or quality whatsoever. Since race did not exist when the Old and New Testaments were written, those books do not justify slavery on racial grounds.

Enslavement of Africans in America was first justified in religious terms, that they were barbarians to be saved from the dark continent. Those justifications took on the language and science of racism through the Enlightenment and the came to fruition in the nineteenth century. Christianity, you are entirely correct, justified enslavement of non-Christians, as Islam justified enslavement of infidels to that religion. The Trans-Atlantic slave trade and the enormous profits from sugar overtook religious ideas that had originally stipulated that slaves should be freed when they converted to Christianity. That would change over the course of the next few centuries until we had scientists at Harvard University measuring the craniums and noses of Africans in an effort to validate the "negroid's" essential biological condition as slave.


Patriarchy is an obvious point. Racism did indeed emerge in a patriarchy world. It was not, however, dependent on gender for its creation. Your reliance on "white patriarchy" in this context is ontological. Whiteness cannot explain the invention of race, since whiteness is itself a racial construction born along side blackness. Actually, given the time period we are discussing, Caucasian and Negroid are more appropriate terms.

Your contention, therefore, that racism is not rooted in science is quite strongly disproved by most, if not all, existing academic literature on the subject. I am of course not surprised that you would be unfamiliar with this. People seldom are. Most of what has long been common knowledge among academics rarely filterers out beyond university walls. What is somewhat unusual is your insistence on ridiculing my comments, when I would have thought it might be clear from my post above that I knew a little bit about the subject matter. Such is life. I would again encourage you to try the Frederickson book. I think you would find it both fascinating and useful.

Wikiepdia also provides some information on the subject from both a anthropological and historical perspective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race



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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. a response?
Perhaps you've been busy at work. Or do you find a discussion of race, culture, and science to be dull?
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kweerwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. If I can't call 'em 'fundies' ...
... do I have to go back to calling them by their full name:

Fun-d'uh-MENTAL-ists?
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osiristz Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. thumpers?
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osiristz Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. it defines them and their lack of acceptance
of others and their beliefs.
When the JW's come knocking on my door telling me I'd better get ready for something THEY believe will happen the term 'fundi' applies. They're stuck in a mental rut with no tools at their disposal to think properly. It's no more a slur than describing someone with Down's Syndrome a "mongoloid". It defines them.

Now, if you wanna talk about 'thumpers', now THERE'S a slur.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. they call themselves fundamentalists, they dont SEE it as a bad
word. they call themselves that in honor. just meaning they take the bible literally. they arent shy saying who they are
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lies and propaganda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. I dont mean anything nice when I say it.
Their are few regards I would find it ok to be'fundamentalist' in.

I suppose I am a democracy fundamentalist, buy hey....
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. Lard, I hope so.
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necso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-05 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. Associating some "label"
Edited on Mon Mar-28-05 11:59 PM by necso
with a group (or an individual) can (in the specifics) be insulting.

Where this "label" is essentially just an arbitrary term (as opposed to an accurate descriptor), and full of all sorts of negative (and untrue) meanings and connotations, then it is understandable to be offended and it is reasonable to expect this kind of behavior (labeling) to considered as insulting and as a insult -- and one should do this sort of thing only as an insult (that is, a provocation, more or less).

However, if an accurate and descriptive term is applied to a group (or individual), then this is no insult -- although it is to be anticipated that the group (or individual) may treat it as an insult. But this is an expected response -- if nothing else it may make one (or some) slower to apply other descriptors to the group (or individual). (People are often offended, or act offended, when you tell them something about themselves based on the reality of how they act -- as opposed to what they would like to believe about themselves and their actions.)

And, of course, there are all sorts of reasons (politics (that is, you wish to get something out of them), tact, discretion -- avoiding being stoned), why one may be wise to shy away from applying descriptive terms to this group or that (or this or that individual) of his peers.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
28. It would seem to me that a fundamentalist of any tradition --
-- would prefer to be called a 'fundie' as opposed to "a hate-driven shit-eating anti-intellectual maggot-souled asshole" -- but I could be wrong.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. LOL
You guys are killing me tonight!!:P
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
30. When I use it, I intent it to be, as it should.
All intolerant persons should be described in derogatory epithets.
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
31. Not necessarily.
I say "fundie" because I'm too lazy to type out "fundamentalist."

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
32. I use the word "fundie" as an insult as well as descriptor.
I don't consider them Christians at all, though they have co-opted the visible trappings of Christianity.
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merbex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
37. "Is the term fundie a slur?" I certainly hope so!
I use it as such

But I do try to distinguish between evangelical Christians (ala Jimmy Carter who I admire) and wacked out fundies
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
38. Yes. It's also cloyingly cute.
Do you order "veggies"?

Not all Fundamentalists want to force their beliefs onto others. Amish & Mennonites are Fundamentalists. Most Fundamentalist denominations have a history of suffering under an Established Church (or even the Scarlet Woman Herself); formerly, they avoided politics.

Evangelicals want to witness their faith. Many are also Fundamentalists--but not all.

Charismatics follow a worship style influenced by African-American practices; many of the more uptight disdain them as lower class. And the movement is considered a bit too ecumenical by conservatives; there are even Roman Catholic Charismatics.

The Dominionist/Christian Reconstructionist movement is behind the modern politicizing of religion. There's no cutesy-poo little phrase to describe them.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I never thought of it as cute
But now that you mention it....I just saw it as a convenient abbreviation. Thanks for the information.
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