This forum is for DEBATE & DISCUSSION.

[Speed8098]

When I registered here there were maybe 2500 - 3000 members.
We had discussions and debates among LIKE MINDED PEOPLE.

That's what I loved about coming here.
A large number of the originals are no longer part of our community, and from some of the posts I've seen here of late, I don't blame them.

As we have grown in members, the insults have grown as well.

Are we a community that picks at each other, or is this still a forum where a person can go to find that they are not alone.?

Yes, we have our share of trolls, but they are usually easy to spot. But there are some here that are very discreet. They hide their right wing ideals very well. But eventually it all comes out.

The thread posted by Will Pitt is the straw that broke the camels back for me.

Some people actually DEFEND the bashing of Christians.

For the record, I have no religious affiliation.

I am appalled at those who presume to be above those who do, and if you look around, you'll see we have a ton of self righteous assholes who presume to be better that this one or that one.

A Democrat is supposed to be compassionate.
A Democrat is supposed to be accepting
A Democrat is supposed to lend a hand when asked.
A Democrat is supposed to be tolerant.

Do you see compassion when it comes to the Christians here? Rarely
Do you see acceptance of Christians here?
Not much.
How many of you are really tolerant of someones beliefs that rub you the wrong way?
Only a few that I can see

Please, please, take this back to the great place it once was.
Send the freepers back to freeperville.

As the country comes apart, we need to remain united, we need to be a place where progressive thinkers can unite, like we once were.

We are becoming known in the mainstream. Let's show them why we are proud to call ourselves Democrats.

Just my $.02

[Dark]

1. I try not to bash the Christians, but I don't distinguish them from fundis

either, mostly because they seldom do.

How many times have we heard about Dobson? Focus on the Family? CWO?

How many LIBERAL christian organizations have we heard about? NONE. Why? Because liberal christians don't speak up. Why aren't there liberal christians down in FL saying 'let Terri be with God'.

Why are there no liberal christian lobbyists?

So many people wonder why we seem 'immoral' to moderates. Because lazy liberal christians don't stand up and fight. They let demagogues lecture from their pulpits, whether on TV or at the local church, on the evils of 'gays' and 'abortion' without raising an objection.

You want to get the moral high ground? Gays aren't going to do it, Abortion doctors aren't. Only the liberal christians have a chance, and they're too fucking lazy, scared, or just tepid to do so.

[Speed8098]

3. "If a tree falls in the forest"

How many LIBERAL Christian organizations have we heard about?
Because you don't know about them they don't exist?

Why are there no liberal Christian lobbyists?
Lobby for what?

You want to get the moral high ground? Gays aren't going to do it, Abortion doctors aren't. Only the liberal Christians have a chance, and they're too fucking lazy, scared, or just tepid to do so.

Moral high ground??
No

My point is that, as Democrats we should be more tolerant and accepting than what is shown here. THAT INCLUDES CHRISTIANS

I may have shot myself in the foot here.

I am not defending one religious belief over another.
I am railing against the explosion of intolerance and insults on this board lately.

[Dark]

4. The intolerance is us venting because, unlike the christians, we ARE

being persecuted (sic).

And as I said before. If we want to win another election, we need to appear moral to at least the moderates.

As to your points:

Because you don't know about them they don't exist?

Well, I follow politics a little bit. And if I haven't heard about them, then even if they do exist they aren't making themselves known. And without making their existance known, their existance is utterly pointless.

They may be feeding the poor, which addresses the symptom, but isn't solving the problem.

Lobby for what?

How about federal aid for the poor and homeless. You know, those people that Jesus couldn't stop talking about?

I am tolerant. You want to believe in your religion, fine. But stop letting your 'christian' brothers walk all over me in YOUR GOD'S NAME without a fight.

I don't accept 'turn the other cheek' on this.

HOW ANYONE CAN LET THESE FUNDIES ABUSE THEIR GOD AND SAVIOR AND STILL CALL THEMSELVES A CHRISTIAN IS BEYOND ME.

They are abusing YOUR savior, not mine. If someone was killing in my god's name, I'd at least be trying to do something about it.

[liberalpress]

38. I'd like to protest...

..but through my chirch, I am (at least temporarily) housing the homeless through the "Romm IN THe Inn" program.

Helping them more permanently by building low cost homes on the weekend.

Helping them to read and get GED through a church sponsored community center.

Feeding the elderly with a meals on wheels program.

I'd like to protest and tell people how much good I'm doing, but because I'm doing it I DON'T HAVE TIME!

[Tansy_Gold]

50. Weighing in rather late, but IMHO these are band-aids on a

sucking chest wound.

I applaud your efforts, but I think the heart of the issue is that many liberal christians -- including Jimmy Carter -- tend to spend their time and effort fixing the problems the rightwing (aka conservative christians) creates, rather than going after the root causes.

When organized churches advocate for the very issues that make people homeless, it's hard for me to encourage support for the members of those churches who try to help the homeless. It's a closed loop.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

Liberal Christians HAVE spoken out!

There was a thread the other day about a letter that 50 KS Christian ministers signed saying they were against that state's proposed anti gay marriage amendment. I'm sure that DU is the only place that most folks heard about this (wasn't on NPR when I was listening, and I don't watch tv news).

There are plenty of progressive churches trying to do good things, speaking out against the war, the Bush Administration (A Unitarian minister here even posted her sermon about the dangers of the neocons, and invited everyone here to copy it and send it to everyone they knew).

It always amazes me when DUers say "nothing is being done by liberal Christians and Muslims" when we have examples of what they are doing posted right here on these boards. I'm sure there have been many more threads posted-I don't have much time to spend here, and yet I found both of the threads mentioned above with no problem.

I've noticed that when articles are posted about Sufis and what this progressive sect of Islam is doing to promote interfaith relations/peace/understanding, there's maybe only one response and then the thread sinks like a stone. I'm thinking the same might be true of many progressive Christian threads.

I believe debate and discussion is fine-as long as it is done with dignity and respect. These, too, are qualities I like to think Democrats are willing to give others with differing viewpoints from their own.

[Misunderestimator]

10. I agree with you... there have been many liberal Christian groups

and liberal Christians that have done tremendous good for society. Personally, the Church gave my invalid mother the only social outlet she had for many, many years, and they did very compassionate things for her. I've also had bad experiences with Christians. I don't judge a person by what religion they are, only by their words and acts. And there have been MANY Christian groups and Christians who have done unspeakably bad things.

When I criticize Christians, I'm criticizing those fools who are destroying other families' experiences with their loved ones in that hospice in Pinellas Park. Or Christians like George W. Bush who blithely kill thousands of innocents through his own hypocritical greed and lust for power. And the Pope for cavalierly judging at least 10% of the population of the earth as evil, simply because they love others of the same gender.

[Blue_In_AK]

87. I HATE how these assholes have stolen the word "Christian"

Not just these assholes, but all of the assholes in the past 2000 years who have perverted Jesus's beautiful belief system so that they could get rich and corrupt. They just make me want to SCREAM.

[KittyWampus]

53. Russert Had 2 Progressive X-ians On Sunday. DU'ers Did NOTHING

but bitch and whine about Lieberman and the fact there were only men and no blacks etc.

Not ONE DU'ers discussed the points the two progressive Christian clerics made.

Not ONE.

[papau]

26. Amen - the anti-Christain free fire zone smoked screened as "fundie"

response is a 14 year old's level of discussion - so I assumed the folks doing so were 14 and cut them some slack.

Seems we have some immature and illogical adults -IMHO- running around DU when it comes to religion.

tolerant and accepting means everyone out of the closet - and Christains into the closet lest they be "in someones face".

[Dhalgren]

41. In war, the enemy is labeled.

Americans who support and defend the Constitution are currently at war with Christians. Not with ALL Christians, but the enemy are Christians. In WWII we fought against the Germans - were many Germans against the Nazis? Sure, but our enemies were Germans.

Christians have faith in their beliefs, but some of them are not very proud of their faith or or not very strong in it. They become insulted and offended when anyone disparages their beliefs. Christians set about (and not too long ago, either) to wipe out all religions and beliefs that did not reflect their true faith. Now, some Christians realize that that kind of behavior is wrong - maybe even evil - and regret their religion's activities in these areas. But many Christians do not believe it was wrong to try and stamp out all other religions and belief systems; they still send their "missionaries" all over the world in order to "convert" people to their religion even today. Christianity is not a tolerant religion - some Christians can be and are very tolerant - but the religion, itself, is not. As long as the main tenet of the faith is "salvation only through belief in Jesus Christ as your personal savior", then there can be little toleration of other beliefs, because there is no room for them. I think that everyone aught to be civil and as understanding as possible, but I cannot accord Christianity any respect beyond what is given to any and all other religions and belief systems - they are all equal in their standing...

[papau]

44. Fair enough - according Christianity respect equal to what 's given to

other religions and belief systems would be step up for many many at DU.

[Inland]

82. One poster said that religious beliefs should get the same

respect as a belief in astrology. I said that most religious DUers would jump at that as a good deal.

Frankly, the astrology forum gets to operate without anyone inserting themselves to let them know exactly what they think of their practices, or how bad the Chaldeans were.

[Mr_Spock]

23. Pretty much my first thought too - the fundies are attacking our Country

They don't respect the constitution, they don't respect separation of Church and State, they think their morals should be ever body's morals - even when their morals are appreciably immoral.

Why WONT non-fundamentalist Christians speak out more forcefully against these right-wing wack jobs? It's hard not to get annoyed when "so called" Christians feel it's more important to defend their religion than attack the people who would push us into fascism if they had their way. A person like me who isn't part of the mainstream Christian church but who tries to live by Jesus ideals is not conflicted, it's the people who are somewhere in-between and who can't see the "forest for the trees" as another person posted. The real "so called" Christians have a DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY to fight these people even MORE than the average person - do NOT defend the fundamentalist RW fascists. Interesting - I was listening to Cat Stevens "Peace Train" as I typed this (yeah, the terrorist :eyes: )

Peace Train

by Cat Stevens

Now I've been happy lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun

Oh I've been smiling lately, dreaming about the world as one
And I believe it could be, some day it's going to come

Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home again

Now I've been smiling lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun

Oh peace train sounding louder
Glide on the peace train
Come on now peace train
Yes, peace train holy roller

Everyone jump upon the peace train
Come on now peace train

Get your bags together, go bring your good friends too
Cause it's getting nearer, it soon will be with you

Now come and join the living, it's not so far from you
And it's getting nearer, soon it will all be true

Now I've been crying lately, thinking about the world as it is
Why must we go on hating, why can't we live in bliss

Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home again

[KittyWampus]

54. They ARE Speaking Out But The Media Doesn't Feature Them 24/7

like the freaks disrespecting Christ down in Florida.

AS others said up thread... stuff is posted here on DU about Progressive Spiritual leaders who speak out... but noone cares or reads it or remembers it.

[Mr_Spock]

65. I save it - I bookmarked an awesome sermon by a liberal minister

a while back - I forwarded it to all my friends as well. Few and far between though - no matter what anybody says. If they want to be heard they know how to get the presses attention..

[Tansy_Gold]

89. How many moderate/liberal representatives of

non-fundamentalist Christian organizations are carrying signs (quietly and respectfully) in Pinellas Park? How many follow the Fred Phelps group around the country? Why isn't there a counter-Phelps church, denouncing his filth at every gay funeral?

When a so-called liberal Christian like Jesse Jackson sides with the fundies, are the liberal and agnostics and atheists and non-Christian religious among us just supposed to roll over and surrender -- or convert?

I'm sorry, but I haven't seen any "persecution" of Christians on DU ever. Have I seen disagreement? Yep. Have I seen disparagement? Yep. Have I seen people describe Christianity as foolishness, fairy-tale worshipping, stupidity, ignorance, etc.? Yes, yes, and yes again.

But why are we supposed to draw the line and protect the tender thin skins of some Christians here on DU? What gives them special dispensation? There's no protection for the liberal right-to-lifers, no protection for the fathers'-rights folks, no protection for the abortion-on-demand folks.

What, if I may be so bold as to ask, qualifies Christians for special dispensation?

A lot of people who were accusing Michael Schiavo of "doing it for the money" came under fire because they hadn't read the various reports showing that Michael had not, in fact, "done it for the money." Some of those people were lambasted mercilessly -- and yes, some of them proved to be trolls.

But as I recall, when one joins DU one is warned that one may encounter opinions contrary to one's own. I took that to mean that anyone who comes on DU had better be prepared to defend her/his convictions or get the fuck out. (Oh, sorry, there are people here who don't like profanity. Tough shit.)

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of Christians of any and all stripes whining about their so-called persecution. No one prohibits Christians from building their churches, getting their holidays off work, wearing their WWJD bracelets and license plate holders and ID badge lanyards. No one is fired just for being a Christian. Christian athletes get just as much playing time as non-Christians, and no one publicly ridicules the football player who kneels in prayer in the end zone or the pitcher who crosses himself before every pitch or the basketball player who thanks Jesus for the double-overtime win.

When I worked for the State of Arizona in 2000, the department had a "Christmas" party and sang "Christmas" carols and exchanged "Christmas" gifts and those few of us who even hinted that maybe "christmas" ought to be replaced by "holiday" were treated with disdain - and we were also the last to be released from work long enough to partake of the party food (paid for out of public monies).

Rob Boston and Rev. Barry Lynn are about the only outspoken anti-fundie, anti-church/state-union christians around. Whenever there's a church/state issue, you can count on one or the other or both of them to make a statement to the press and be quoted. Why not others? Why is the head of the Episcopal church not making statements about gay marriage? (Because their church is dealing with its own internal schism over GLBT issues and can't seem to stand up for itself?) Where are the Methodists and Presbyterians and Lutherans and Quakers and even the Unitarian Universalists on the issue of prayer in school and vouchers for fundamentalist church schools and gay marriage and right to die? (Many kudos to the Church of Christ for their quiet and dignified commercials about welcoming EVERYONE, but that's not enough in this day and age.) We know where the Southern Baptists are, but what about the other Baptists?

Many Catholics have engaged in "liberation theology," but none of their spokespersons seem to be ringing in on the current church v. state arguments. Let's face it, the Roman Catholic Church, as a political body, has some major internal issues to deal with, many of which are indirect outgrowths of the enforcement of their spiritual dogma.

I think the truth is that there are many so-called moderate Christians -- and even some right here on DU -- who have LESS quarrel with the fundies than they do with the agnostics, atheists, secular humanists, and other non-fundamentalists. They have LESS quarrel with Islamic fundamentalists than they do with liberal non-believers.

Personally, I think it would be difficult to remain a Christian practicing in a mainstream organized church and be able to reconcile my religion with liberal/progressive politics. There might be some radical doctrines out there, but they aren't mainstream.

I also would have great difficulty trusting the liberal/progressive politics of anyone -- and I do mean ANYONE -- who demanded protection of her/his religious beliefs. To me, the hallmark of liberal/progressive politics is the importance of the here and now, of the lives of the living, and of the hope for a better world on this planet. Anyone who starts spouting "rewards in heaven" or "God must have wanted it that way" is, in my book, not willing to deal with reality.

The sad thing is that many on the fundamentalist right are MORE WILLING to do this than those on the moderate left. In the arguments over Terri Schiavo's fate, we've looked in the faces of those who would deny Terri her right to God's will and chain her to this life. We have listened to the shriekings of those who preach love and practice hate. We have read the signs of those who worship of God of exclusion and demand inclusion.

anyone who wants to be a Christian or a christian or a xian can do so with my blessing /sic/. But when you come on an open discussion board and tell others to have special respect for your beliefs, when it's made abundantly clear that many of your co-religionists have no respect whatsofuckingever for mine, I say no fucking way.

[beam me up scottie]

91. Bravo Tansy, bravo!

If anyone would care to look at it from OUR perspective, here is another very intelligent, level-headed post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3374510&mesg_id=3379439

"Any doctrine that will not bear investigation is not a fit tenant for the mind of an honest man." ~Robert G. Ingersoll

[Tansy_Gold]

94. Thank you

for both the "bravo" and the link.

Sometimes I feel as if many of the so-called christians on DU are the equivalent of the pukes in Washington, whining about persecution no one but they themselves is able to perceive and using that persecution as a lever to gain (even more) unfair advantage. It only works if we agree they've been persecuted. I refuse to agree.

I guess I see it as a matter of priorities -- which is more important, your religion or your politics? If one can't set one's religion aside to discuss politics -- or worse, if they're one and the same -- then I suggest "one" hie oneself to a religion board and leave DU to the politically minded.

But that's just the opinion of

one DUer

Tansy Gold

[beam me up scottie]

95. You're more than welcome.

I just got done reading Arendt's post Kill a Constitution for Christ,
he blew me away.
It should be required reading for all Du'ers.
Check it out and pass it around if you can. It deserves to live longer than 12 hours.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3379472

[antigone382]

69. There are liberal Christian organizations. You just don't hear about them.

For the record, I was raised Episcopalian (basically liberal) by my mother, went to Baptist churches (basically conservative) with my paternal Grandmother, and am now an atheist/agnostic.Though I no longer share the Christian faith, I embrace progressive Christians, as I do people of all other religions, and like you, I believe that the progressive Christian voice must be heard in order for liberals in America to succeed.

However, it doesn't matter how many organizations you start or how loudly you try to put forth your view of Christianity if the media won't acknowledge it and won't report it. The RW media whores have worked very hard to cultivate an image that equates Christianity with right-wing values, and atheism with left-wing values, when in fact there are a large number of Christians and atheists on both sides. This image has been a long time in the making--read the "Christian Century" magazine circa 1980 for warnings of a burgeoning conservative Christian movement that threatened to drown all other Christian belief systems by declaring them invalid and against God's will.

One of the tenets of Christianity is that you aren't supposed to judge the veracity of other Christians; if someone claims to be a Christian, you accept that for what it is, and you leave the rest up to God. When the radical conservatives came in doing just that, declaring that their way was the only true way, saner Christians could not reciprocate or call these people out for the frauds that they were, because it would be breaking one of their cardinal rules. This scrupulousness put them at a severe disadvantage, one which has allowed things to degenerate to their present state. However, there is a growing movement to reintroduce the beliefs of a more liberal, progressive Christianity.

Probably the best known organization toward this end is Sojourners, which you can visit here: http://www.sojo.net/

Another is Progressive Christians Uniting: http://www.progressivechristiansuniting.org/index.shtml

And there are others besides those. The point is, there is a large, growing progressive Christian movement. However, because it stresses tolerance and reason, and disdains the overblown tactics and self-righteous bloviations of Jerry Falwell and James Dobson, it has not yet gotten the attention it deserves. Liberal Christians aren't lazy, they're just principled--for better or for worse. That fact is frustrating, but unfortunately it's not up to me or other atheists/agnostics like myself to figure out a way to get around that. That's something that only Christians can do.

Edited for spelling.

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. Like-minded people can't have a debate.

If they agree on the issues, there's nothing to debate. Some difference of opinion can be a healthy thing.

And it seems to me that those who have a problem with CHRISTIANITY, as practised by a very large minority in the United States, are transferring that frustration to individual Christians, which doesn't really help. A liberal Episcopalian from Boston doesn't have much in common with a Southern Baptist from Mississippi. But entirely too many people see the situation as black/white, either/or, and lump all "Christians" together under their negative view of Christianity. And conversely, many Christians don't seem to be able to understand that it isn't THEM who's being attacked, but the reactionary version of their beliefs espoused by the religious right. I'd say a little more respect and tolerance for difference of opinion is called for from both sides.

[oblivious]

5. Well said.

If they agree on the issues, there's nothing to debate. Some difference of opinion can be a healthy thing.

I don't contribute much here, but I read a lot just for the reason you gave. There is a lot of difference of opinion, leading to a lot of debate, and as a result, I learn a lot here. I wouldn't learn nearly as much without the debate.

[Misunderestimator]

6. More Bullshit. I'm sick to death of people making broad accusations

against people who criticize Christianity. Christianity should be criticized. Many, many Christians on this board criticize the same things I criticize, and it's those very unchristian things embraced by the fundamentalist arm of the religion that we agree upon.

Do you see compassion when it comes to the Christians here? Almost always
Do you see acceptance of Christians here? Very much
How many of you are really tolerant of someones beliefs that rub you the wrong way? I am only tolerant of beliefs that don't infringe on my rights. True "Christian" ideals... I am ALL for.

:wtf: is with all the flaming Christian threads these last few days anyway? Why are CHRISTIANS provoking conflict?

[RetroLounge]

17. Thank you for this post

:hi:

"Why are CHRISTIANS provoking conflict?"

indeed...

RL

[GiovanniC]

31. YES!

Thank you!

[tuvor]

37. Self-delete

Just woke up. Too early to reply appropriately.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. Given the current situation

Bashing christians in inevitable. If people have used too broad a brush when addressing the manifest emergence of a theocracy in this country, oh well. It cannot be said too often or with too much vigor that the recent events regarding the unfortunate Terri Schiavo have, if nothing else, revealed the Bush administration for what it is, a regime incorporating all three key elements of fascism: militant nationalism, corporatism, and religious extremism.

It is not "thinly veiled right wingers" bashing the religious lunacy in our society, it is concerned, desperately concerned, progressive Democrats who can clearly see where this is all heading.

I suspect we will not shut up and play nice. We will not stop addressing what is happening to our nation because "we are becoming known in the mainstream" so now we apparently have to start being as compromised and untruthful as the mainstream.

And as noted elsewhere, one cannot have a debate without disagreement.

[punpirate]

8. I would suggest...

... that before you defend this point of view, consider two things:

1) There is a definition of priggishness in most dictionaries. You would do well to look that definition up.

2) This is not your site. It's owned by others. Beyond that, there are a lot of angry people here, angry because of what has been done to them and their country by a bunch of nasty, narrow-minded religious bigots using the country's governmental system to further their own theocratic interests. That makes even reasonable people chary about even references to religion in what is ostensibly a secular state.

Wake up and smell the coffee--it's not your grandpa's America's any longer. People here are particularly fed up with the right--in all its manifestations--and if their language (and their seeming intemperance) seems to exceed your sense of decency, there might be reasons for it.

In that spirit of tolerance which you ascribe to Democrats, try including the views of others with which you take exception.

Cheers.

[flordehinojos]

9. you have spoken true words of wisdom. thank you!

[charlie]

11. This place wasn't as idyllic as he remembers anyway

He's forgotten the regular Dem/Green donnybrooks we used to have around here. And the Dems Suck/No They Don't fest that roiled these boards around the midterms, forcing admin to come through swinging the banhammer and locking us down with strict Watch Your Mouth rules. And the Believer/Nonbeliever standoffs were just as contentious then as they are now.

There's always been plenty of tumult around here. Thinking that seeing attitudes he doesn't like has to be the result of a freeper invasion is silly.

[bicentennial_baby]

13. True dat...

This place is downright peaceful these days, compared to some points in the past that I can remember...

[Hekate]

16. Oh god, you're right about that. LOL

DUers may have this need to go jumping up and down on each other periodically. I remember posting many pleas to stop ripping each other apart and concentrate on defeating Bush!

Now I find myself calling for us to not display the religious bigotry we find so offensive in the right wing.

The current push by the ultra-fundy Christians to make the US a theocracy is a genuine social phenomenon that requires careful study and attention. The close ties (unholy matrimony, I call it) between the Neo-conservatives and the Christian ultra-right are also deserving of attention, as is the involvement of some Jews with PNAC and fundamentalist Christian groups intent on molding a particular kind of Middle East/Israel policy. Strange bedfellows indeed.

It serves us ill to make sweeping, inflammatory, statements about "the Christians" and/or "the Jews" -- ugly passions are stirred, potential allies are alienated, and it makes us look bigoted and ignorant. We certainly do need to speak out vigorously, but from a base of knowledge and truth.

Perhaps it would help if DUers consider that, given the demographics of the US, Christians predominated among the 56 million people who voted against GW Bush. And the Jews of America, while small in numbers, have traditionally been socially and politically liberal, as well as disproportionately involved in issues of social justice. Not all Christians voted for Gore or Kerry; not all Jews are liberals and not Neo-cons -- but certainly quite enough that we need to be mindful of where our allies are, okay?

Hekate

[Arugula Latte]

63. Not to mention the nastiness in the presidential primaries.

Clark vs. Dean supporters. Kerry vs. Dean supporters. You name it.

Nasty. But invigorating.

[REP]

18. Excellent Post!

:thumbsup:

[KittyWampus]

57. It's One Thing To Be Fed Up W/ Rightwing Fundies. Christianity

is a whole other thing.

This isn't even really a subtle point.

It's pathetic it escapes so many people.

Fundamentalists come in all different flavors.

I am sick of the myopic, close-minded Science Fundies who try and dominate the discussions here on DU, myself. But I don't attack them.

Refute their arguments and point out their weakness, Yes. Attack, No.

Are all Americans Neo-Cons?

Would you say same about a Muslim who attacked Americans indiscrimiately because of the actions of the Neo-Cons fascists?

[anarchy1999]

97. So nice to see you weighing in on this one and "boy howdy" did you

take it on.

You dear sir are in our top 20, that is for sure.

Thank you dearest.

And to all you new persons, pay attention to punpirate when he decides to post. He is a very knowledgeable old owl with lots of resources.

[H2O Man]

12. Good post, good message.

I'm glad that Martin Luther King, Jr. was involved in the politics of America. I'm glad that he mixed religion with politics. I can't for the life of me see how Martin posed a threat to this country. I am surprised at the number of confused DUers who are so confused as to think that a Martin Luther King, Jr. posed a dangerous threat to their rights.

It is said that bitterness contaminates the vessel that contains it. I believe that only a contaminated vessel could view Martin as a bad influence on American life, or a threat to democracy.

[Dhalgren]

43. If King had advocated the abandonment of the Constitution

and the establishment of a theocracy, then I would have been against him, as well. But he advocated for a more stringent adherence to the Constitution. He advocated for a more inclusive government and society. He advocated for a broadening of the franchise. All these things are the opposite of what the Christian fascists are calling for now. I don't care what their faith is, what their god is, or who is allowed into their heaven - if they are promoting fascism in this country, I am against them.

[H2O Man]

45. I think we should all be

against fascism. I also think that we should concentrate on what we are for. I think that "yes" is more powerful than "no." Martin asked people to say yes to the Constitution, yes to life.

[Dhalgren]

46. King was also against the wrongs he saw in society.

He had a very positive message, but was not averse to stating his opposition to inequality, bigotry, disenfranchisement, poverty, and the Vietnam War (which may have ultimately cost him his life). No I have full respect for individual Christians, as I have for individual Hindus and Buddhists and Muslims and Pagans. If their religions require defense from time to time, it may be the problem lies in their religions.

[H2O Man]

49. Where King saw wrong,

he proposed right. His message was not negative, bitter, or hateful. He recognized the strength of being positive, compassionate, and loving. His defense of human beings from the negative, bitter, and hateful forces did not reflect a problem in his religion -- it reflected the diseased minds of those who opposed him.

[Dhalgren]

55. I did not say the his defense of human beings

was in any way related to problems in his religion. I said that if he or any other religionists had from time to time defend their religions that the problem might lie within the religion. King used his religious beliefs to form the foundation of his social and political goals. That is not the same thing as endeavoring to legislate your religious beliefs. Many religions have a great deal of compatibility in terms of foundational ideals and broad societal mores and can, and should, be the basis for an individuals political stances. But that is a far, far cry from actively advocating the legislation of religious ideologies, moral standards, or legal foundations.

I don't think we are too far apart, here, just on which side of the issue we each wish to err.

[H2O Man]

60. "on which side we each wish to err"

I prefer to think that we can both be correct; again, that is my focus on "yes" versus "no." But indeed, the only time King had to "defend" his religion was when people had issue with his attempting to defend human beings from abuse. If there are other times he had to defend his religion other than these cases, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

[Dhalgren]

67. I do not know of any cases where King, as an individual,

had to defend his religion. You misunderstood my statement. This was all tied into the original topic of religion and politics. You stated that you could not see how King's involvement in politics could be argued against. My statement was to separate the politics from the religion. If any religionists have to defend their religions, it may be that the problem lies in the religions. That was a statement related to the difference between political differences and religious differences. You see, I do not think that King was in any way pushing his religion in his politics. His religion informed his politics, but his politics adhered purely to constitutional realization. His civil rights stances, while no doubt strengthened by his religious beliefs, were in adherence to constitutional requirements, not religious ones. Supporters of Falwell and Robertson can make the same statements about their heroes as you do for King, but I would argue that there is very little comparison between them precisely because of King's advocation of constitutional mandates and not religious requirements.

[H2O Man]

74. To be accurate:

I did not say that I "could not see how King's involvement in politics could be argued against." That misses my point. I do understand how it could be argued against: I can use the examples of J. Edgar Hoover and Bull Connor, for but two examples. I recognize that the DUers who argue that religion has no place in politics are, like Hoover and Connor, ignorant and frequently bitter.

We can best consider King's mixture of religion and politics by reading his works. No one can make a serious case that his politics were based primarily upon constitutional, rather than bibical, grounds. Just for the easiest example, consider his stance on Vietnam. It is best outlined in his April 4, 1967 speech "A Time to Break Silence." It is accurate to say that King recognized that his religious beliefs were in no way compromised by the Constitution, but it is important to recognize that he was a minister.

Your comment that supporters of Falwell and Robertson can say the same about them as I can about King is strange. Hopefully we won't be tempted to go in that direction again.

[Dhalgren]

76. No, I believe at this point we will go in no direction, at all...

[H2O Man]

81. Okay.

I have enjoy talking with you. Thanks.

[patricia92243]

14. Republican strategy is to make the Democratic party appear to be the anti-

Christianity party. Every Christianity bashing is a success for the Republican Party.

[bowens43]

15. Christianity is getting out of hand.

When they start trying to legislate their religion and have their creation myth taught in science class, they have crossed the line. We are moving very quickly toward a Taliban like Christian theocracy. They intend to control everything that we see, hear and learn and do. If you haven't noticed this you haven't been paying attention.

Fundamentalism is a danger to our freedom and Christian fundamentalism is quite possibly the greatest threat our Constitution has ever faced.

[KittyWampus]

59. Fundamentalism & Extremism Aren't Provinces Soley Of Christianity

there are some unbalanced Science Fundies as well.

And Athiest extremists as well.

Mao Tse Tung didn't have a religion, did he?

[Dhalgren]

70. Are you saying that Mao is currently trying to overthrow

our Constitution? That bastard!

[bowens43]

72. Science fundis?

You're kidding right? Sorry, but atheists, scientists and Moa are part of an orchestrated movement to destroy our Constitution and limit our freedom.

The threat here and now is from Christian fundamentalists.

[Jersey Devil]

19. Oh my God I am heartily sorry for having offended thee

Sanctimonious poppycock!

[SammyWinstonJack]

64. .

:evilgrin: I love this place!

[tavalon]

20. You could try some of the other forums

GD is notoriously pissy about just about everything. Or, so I've noticed.

[Blue_Roses]

47. no doubt

:thumbsup: it's like a daily food fight in here lately...I feel like I'm sitting in the high school cafeteria listening to all the gossip. I'm starting to miss the intellectual debate that this forum had to offer at one time. It's one big gripe fest now.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Sacred cows make the best hamburger. "Christianity" is a sacred cow.

It is an institulianized religion in this country. Part of the "establishment". As such, it deserves probing, analysis, ridicule, debate, defense, and all that goes with being an institution that has it's effect on society. Otherwise we have the Taliban.

Here's some "bashing" of Christianity:

James Madison
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

[katinmn]

22. A Democrat is supposed to be compassionate.

A Democrat is supposed to be accepting
A Democrat is supposed to lend a hand when asked.
A Democrat is supposed to be tolerant.

That's what I always believed, also.

The extremists who call for death against anyone who doesn't agree with them do not have the right to call themselves Christians.

And anyone who believes all Christians are hypocrites and Kool-Aid drinkers are exhibiting extremely narrow thought also.

The fundamental-extremist-Rapturists have hurt the image of all Christians and it's causing a backlash against organized religion in America.

Perhaps what will come out of it is a true separation of church and state. The Bush-Schiavo fiasco is showing how dangerous it is to meld government and religion.

[mmonk]

24. some practice bad behavour

and pervert Christianity in the religious right. It's the right of other Christians to point that out. It's ok to say no to intolerant people when asked if they should be welcomed into the democratic party with open arms.

[dryan]

27. My 2 cents.....

re-read patricia92243 message. That says it all!

[mmonk]

35. My 2 cents

If they oppose things your party stands for, they could redefine its meaning.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GiovanniC]

30. I Truly Hope That the Right Wing Radio Freaks Didn't Tell You

to be tolerant -- being tolerant is code for saying you're a homo. James Dobson told me so.

[endarkenment]

33. I like that quote on your sig

:-)

[GiovanniC]

36. A Fellow DUer Said That

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GiovanniC]

28. Thank the Lord That Another "Why-Do-They-Pick-on-Christians" Thread

has been started.

As a straight, white, male, able-bodied Christian, I will say that I for one am just so sick of being persecuted!

Whenever someone on DU criticizes Christianity just because members of our religion want to ban a cartoon sponge, I feel like Jesus felt with his crown of thorns digging into his flesh.

Whenever a fellow Democrat makes a disparaging comment about Christians just because they want the schoolchildren to bow down to our One True King and stop this silliness about the world being older than 6,000 years old, it is as though the heavy cross is crushing down on my back.

The harsh words of DUers are like lashes from whips on Jesus's skin when high-profile Christians and their followers say that God hates fags, that women should have no decision-making power over their own bodies, or that children should be disciplined through violence.

Verily I say unto thee... Jesus himself did not suffer as much as I do on this Democratic message board! Would it really be so hard -- is it really TOO MUCH TO ASK -- that you all convert to Christianity today? I mean, come on.

[Dhalgren]

71. LOL...thanks. Lord knows we needed some levity...

[guinivere]

85. LOL! Damn, that was good. n/t

[Alpharetta]

29. Don't be fooled

There are tons of agendas among DUers. Some may be disruptors. Others may just have issues. Some are trying to get laid. Others are looking for friends. Or jobs. Or a good argument.

To many, Christianity is just a topic for whatever agenda they have. They'll use it as a wedge issue, or a tool, or a vehicle for their own advancement (whether they're pro- or anti-).

A good rule of thumb: ignore those who lump all Christians together.

[Rockholm]

32. Maybe when the fundies stop bashing me....

Little story. I went to Philadelphia on Sunday for a meeting on Monday. I went to the cab stand for a taxi into Center City. The next cab in cue was COVERED in Jesus stickers and the big thing on the top of his cab was covered in HUGE Bible verses. I requested ther next cab in cue form the attendant. He was curious as to why and then the cabbie started yelling at me because he was next.
In any event, I walked to the cab behind him. As we were driving into the city, the driver, a Muslim, told me that many people refuse to take that cab. Good, I said. I personally found it offensive.
My moral of this story.....Keep Jesus to yourself. If I have any questions, I will ask.
I am an Episcopalian and am so offended and disturbed by these fundies shoving THEIR version of Christ to me.
My 2 cents

[Bouncy Ball]

34. Oh it's another don't pick on Christians thread.

Look, I appreciate it and all, but my skin IS a bit thicker than tissue paper. And I know how to hit the alert button, because after all, according to the DU posting rules, insulting someone's religious beliefs is verboten.

So what's the problem? Hit alert. Use ignore. Hide thread. Seriously, those three things can't be that hard to use.

I'm actually getting a bit sick of (and about to start hiding) all these religion threads. I realize the fundies (even with being a tiny percentage of our country) are trying to make it a big big deal in this country (and the MSM is in compliance, apparently), but why does religion have to take over DU, too?

And every single "don't pick on Christians" thread doesn't do much to stop it, either, but no one has noticed that. Just use the tools at your disposal--alert, ignore, hide thread. If it's really bad with a particular person and you don't see them getting their posts deleted, email one of the administrators. There ARE things you can do.

[_TJ_]

39. You are correct as usual BB

no amount of complaining is ever going to dissuade people who
think like this. Ya just gotta take it on the chin and try to be
bigger person yourself.

I'm done with flamewars (I hope) :D

[On the Road]

92. "Hit alert. Use ignore. Hide thread."

That is NOT what this is about. It's about the kind of discussion we have here.

DU is almost unique in that it is has a diversity of opinion but is not an all-out flame war. That is accomplished by having rules of discourse and intrusive moderating. It's the same on this issue as on controversies in the primaries, the Nader wars, or any other subject.

Saying you don't believe the Bible is fine. Saying the resurrection is a scam is not. There is a difference.

[AngryAmish]

40. The KKKristians want us all dead and in hell

When a few people bite back, they get slammed.

[BamaBecky]

42. I think it boils down to manners...old fashioned Character! n/t

[rman]

51. "*SOME* people actually defend the bashing of Christians"

keyword: "some"

So why make a problem out of the behaviour of what amounts to a small minority on DU?
You're not trying to create a wedge-issue are you?

[bloom]

56. I've mostly been avoiding the religious wars this time around...

but I see that it goes both ways and I don't think it helps for anyone to act like it is just one side and not the other.

[CrispyQ]

58. I've visted this site for a year & have been surprised at the frequency of

mean-spirited, nasty responses on this site, & not just religious posts. They crop up everywhere & it's like a kick in the gut to read, even when it's not directed at yourself.

Like you, I thought we were like minded & by the very nature of being liberal, tolerant of differences.

[earth mom]

61. Tolerance and understanding is a two way street.

You say that people aren't tolerant of Christians...but did you ever stop to think that people who aren't Christians don't want to hear the rhetoric at all-IF EVER?! Did you ever stop to think that Christians are continually stepping on peoples toes and sensibilities, seemingly without respect or consideration for other beliefs or non beliefs? IMO, Christians really need to step back and REALLY look at themselves and get honest! If they truly care about others and want to avoid any backlash or hurt feelings on either side, they should ask themselves if they are infringing on the rights of others...as in those Who Don't Want To Hear ANY Jesus Or God Talk Even For A Minute! C'mon now, there is a reason this is getting thrown right back into many Christians' faces and that's that NO ONE likes to be preached to, especially adults who have already formed their own opinions anyway.

Tolerance and understanding that others have differing points of view is really a two way street!

My user name, "The Golden Rule" is a rule I try and live by-though I'm not perfect by any means-lol! Roughly translated it means: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." As in: "Be nice to me and I'll be nice to you and if I'm nice to you, please be nice to me. If we all followed this concept and tried to not step on each others toes with our beliefs and in turn kept Politics and Religion separate this country would not be in the mess it is in now.

After all, this was the intention of the founding fathers of this country and obviously there was very good reason for it!

[Speed8098]

96. Ahhh, but the question is........

You say:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." As in: "Be nice to me and I'll be nice to you and if I'm nice to you, please be nice to me.

How do you react when other don't follow the "Golden Rule"?

Do you lash out? Or do you let it slide?

[achtung_circus]

62. There is none so blind

as he who will not see.

To lump all Christians in a fundamentalist bunch is analagous to an End Times fundamentalist Christian calling all Muslims terrorists.

Forest and trees, people.

Baby and bathwater.

Christianity is a continuum and we should be able to respect some Christianity without approving of the actions of some Christians, without approving of some of the things that are done in the alleged name of God or Allah or whatever deity.

No religion is perfect, don't let the actions of the loonies blind you to the good things that can flow out of belief.

[Sparkle]

66. "The thread posted by Will Pitt is the straw that broke the camels back.."

Link?

[ultraist]

68. I'm so tired of the minority groups oppressing the majority groups

Gays are oppressing straights
Non Christians are oppressing Christians
Women are oppressing white straight males
People of color are oppressing whites

The majority groups are being persecuted and denied their rights and privileges! This must stop.

Boo fucking hoo.

[GiovanniC]

77. Yup

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3377008&mesg_id=3377323

[info being]

73. DU doesn't appear to be a place where...

people can grow through the questioning of their fundamental beliefs and assumptions. If I'm dead wrong about something on a discussion forum, I'd expect someone to tell me. Christians, for the most part (and others who cling to indefensible positions), do not.

DU has never really been a place where free speech is allowed. I came here under the assumption that it was the "democratic underground"...meaning I could express ideas that may be too liberal or too extreme for the mainstream. But after receiving a little attention from the mainstream, it seems the people who run this site are more concerned with appealing to the masses.

Its been this way for a while, and my interest is fading. Perhaps it is really time for me to move on.

[PATRICK]

75. Christians feel more free to bash themselves

Jesus did. It's a healthy discipline to remedy the tendency to usurp God and neglect the Gospels.

In fact one can see that the kneejerk tendency is fairly dumb, but innocent. "Christians" almost always means upfront the fringe Bush supporters among the fringe fundamentalists and even weirder cults. Some of them make old fashioned heretics look intelligent and admirable.

But then the blanket of ineffectual outrage spreads to the whole bag without distinguishing anything. Instead, the very old stock insults, prejudices and snap judgments re-emerge. Christians=religious wars=the Inquisition= secret cabals= allegiance to money and power= complete unscientific hoaxes=the root of all social evil. That is too bad because all Christians, the largest world religion when all the sects are lumped together, if they practiced their real ideals more faithfully, zealously and compassionately should have a greater beneficial effect on their society.

There are a LOT of criticisms for the Christian masses and the clerical leadership(our times has little gifted leadership that it desperately needs). The critique of the present Pope is a complex issue that the immoral RW thinks to co-opt easily compared to the ever suspect "liberals". But none of this is what comes out when one is bouncing instant Internet wrath against the media propped loonies or single red flag issues.

The media keeps the argument stupid beyond belief and we get sucked in every time. Otherwise I personally am not put off at all by the most bitter anti-Christian atheist. Generally what offends them most offends the God they do not believe in as well. If God exists these zealots for truth and passionate justice are Godly if not- then godly. After that pride and a closed mind is THE great problem for every human and it would be wiser to realize our limitations in parading such absolute opinions like e-bullies..

When someone(always the media in case you didn't notice)pushes the button, step back and cast a few stones against the media that sets the lousy standards for debate. Let them be the first to get flamed for their own rules.

The dilemma was acknowledged right in the first generations of the Church- before Empire growth really overwhelmed the sense of community and settled into hierarchical structures to protect a core minimum in a decaying world order. Wheat and weeds grow together. At that time they could think of no way to "purge" or purify the fields without destroying wheat. We still can't really. Everyone misses the point about faith, Church practices and the life service commands. The apocalyptic parable of the sheep and goats shows both those who served their fellow man(believers or others) and those who did not or hid their persecutions of mankind behind "faith" equally didn't get the picture. Surprise. You mean Church attendance didn't count because I neglected to care for the poor? You mean I am invited in to this strange heaven I verbally ripped apart?

Whether it turns out a myth or reality in the end, the present reality of Christianity in its genuine teachings is the life of the Beatitudes which is as devoid of doctrinal or sacramental requirements as Buddha's Path. The blindness and the division and the corruption of lies makes us all suffer together. We are all in danger in that blindness of traipsing out onto the angry self-righteous broad path, the Glory Road to destruction and the abortion of God's Creation that some of the unthinking loonies fervently lust for. The easy way to avoid responsible living.

It is very easy also to become exactly what you are fighting. That has been noted in many discussions having nothing to do with the religious issue. And certainly the flagrant Mammonite hypocrites at the top of our political crisis are decidedly CINO's. Lashing out to the side is looking for easier targets than the ones who have shamed and mocked America with impunity.

I suppose blacks among themselves have their own opinion about using the "n" word among themselves and another when whites use it. The same is true of things like anti-catholicism which has a short but consistent history imported from the sordid ills of Europe. When Christians take offense they have good historical cause not to let certain things pass that threaten their American rights. And especially take offense against the hypocrites who have awoken that cancer in the first place. These are the same type of intolerant people who started these things, albeit learned from the state sponsored churches that oppressed them in the Old Country. You don't want to get into this sickness by any door.

Being a Democrat is beyond Christianity in a special way politically taking responsibility for serving the governmental and social needs of the whole human community. It is the work and it means setting aside theology and personal spirituality for the common good. As they are good they will be immensely compatible. As they are divided and destructive they will both fail. Forget damnation for a minute. We will suffer and die in the here and now, the future along with us, and it seems so shamefully tragic and avoidable.

[RedEarth]

78. I couldn't agree more.........thanks for the post

[jonnyblitz]

79. these fucking christian pity party threads remind me of the GOP

complaining about the blatant bigotry against the poor disenfranchised white man. some of you wont be satisfied until the only topic pertaining to christianity allowed are the ones filled with praise and fawning. Christianity is a belief system people CHOOSE that should NOT be above scrutiny especially when its values are counter to the values we here at DU are supposed to espouse! People freaking out because somebody said JEEBUS on easter sunday weekend is really a silly thing to get indignant about!

[sniffa]

80. i'LL pray for you

:P

[countryjake]

83. Being tolerant does not mean being stupid!

I was under the impression that it is imperative, as Citizens, (not just Democrats), for us to recognize, be concerned, & take immediate action against such serious threats to our liberty as powers-that-be who wish to install principles which dictate our freedoms based upon some fable or tenet that usurps the inalienable rights guaranteed us as humans. Doesn't being democratic demand that we examine what morally represents a social equality & move to strike down those who demand conformity & discrimination, or wish to establish laws NOT in keeping with the people's best interests?

A noble defense of the human right to decide their own consciences will be filled with passion, by its very nature. Accepting attacks upon this basic right, simply because of a general consensus that a majority feels comfortable with, is seriously unDemocratic & allowing the establishment of laws which reflect the bias of this majority is certainly not a thing to be proud of. Tolerance is based on respect; when a party pretends tolerance that essentially just puts up with those in the minority, rather than fighting tooth & nail to uphold all sectors inherent rights, & more importantly, when said party sits on its laurels while certain minorities are visibly deprived of those rights, it is our duty to demand real respect & take effective action that points to the flawed aspects of such behavior & identifies the source & corrects that which potentially could destroy what we all hold dear.

Fighting for truth, liberty & justice may seem self-righteous to some, but it takes us back to what this nation was based upon.

[Zynx]

84. The biggest problem is that many don't distinguish between...

Christians and the fundies. Most Christians in this country are good people who keep their beliefs to themselves. I am sick and tired of being lumped by a bunch of ignorant assholes on this board with religious fundamentalists and being told what I actually believe by people who have never met me.

[Blue_In_AK]

86. Excellent post, Speed. I couldn't agree more.

[morgan2]

90. I have no problem with someone believing in Christianity

we all have our idiosyncrasies. I just don't think you can make an honest argument about religion, coming from the perspective of a non-believer, without making the point that its nothing more than a myth. Part of the thread you mentioned, was complaining that people shouldn't refer to Christianity as a mere "fairy tale." Thats like saying one can't advocate Christianity by saying its the truth because thats insulting to Atheists. Believing religion is a fairy tale is Atheism.

Yes, I agree that sometimes atheists are very mean spirited about Christianity, but you have to understand that its the same reason blacks are mean spirited about white people. Every part of our culture associates goodness with Christianity, and being bad with atheism. Everyone isn't going to be completely intellectually honest when discussing religion. People like to get in a few cheap shots in when they feel the constant pressure on their back. People need to lighten up and not take a comment about their religion as a personal attack. Everyone has their own beliefs, I think religion is ridiculous, you may think atheism is dooming me to hell. I'm not gonna get angry for you saying so if thats your belief.

[Laurab]

93. What is a Christian exactly? Who defines "Christianity"?

I can tell you what Christian is NOT - Bushit and his fundie friends are NOT Christians. However, they are giving Christians a very bad name. It pisses me off.

I belong to no church, no organized religion, yet I consider myself a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in a loving God. I don't care if someone bashes me for believing in God. It's a personal belief. It's not debatable with me. I'll have my "fairy tale" if I want to, and no one is going to tell me different.

The problem is I think, that the "Christians" that are getting bashed have nothing to do with real Christians, or real Christianity. I can understand someone bashing them - I do it myself - prayer meetings before meeting with king george, prayer meeting before this official function, maybe prayers while deciding which wars to start next...I dunno. King Georgie is gonna be in big trouble when he meets MY God, I can tell you that.

Anyone I know who considers themselves a "real", "born again" Christian is hypocritical, full of hate and anger, and intolerance, and doesn't believe anyone else is really a Christian. To me that's not a Christian at all, since it goes against everything Jesus preached.

This whole thing is confusing to me because the people who are doing evil things in the name of Christianity are not REALLY Christians. They DESERVE bashing, in my opinion. I don't know what to call myself, but as I said, I believe, because I believe in God, and try to live a life guided by his teachings, I must be a Christian, but I'm NOT one of THEM.

Evil, pretend Christians have now defined what a Christian is to many here. The problem with that is, they are not Christians at all. Bashing "Christians" is not the answer. Real Christians are good people.