Will Xianity ever be able to fully accept non-Xians?

[Modem Butterfly]

I ask this knowing that Xians are given the "great commission", that is, their religion requires them to share the gospel (or "good news") in the hopes of gaining converts. Now I've known many Xians, and I have Xian friends, and they know I'm an atheist and they have other non-Xian friends as well. But it seems like in the larger picture, Xianity itself, as a philosophy and religion, is not able to accept non-Xians but rather considers them to be either lost souls in need of saving (i.e., future Xians) or hell-bound willful sinners (i.e. "lost causes").

Note: This is NOT a slam on individual Xians (whether they accept non-Xians or not) nor is it a slam on Xianity. It just seems the religion itself isn't set up to cope with the idea of non-believers as equal individuals.

[progmom]

1. You don't describe me.

I've never heard of this "great commission".
I love you for who you are and how you act, and it has nothing to do with your beliefs.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. For you , personally, I have no doubt that's true.

[tx_dem41]

2. Of course you understand that there is a corresponding question that..

goes with yours.

[Modem Butterfly]

39. Sure there is

So what's your point?

[AngryAmish]

3. KKKristians never will

They only seek to destroy.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

4. Neither Xianity nor Islam

accept people who do not belong to their particular religion. This was driven to me back in 6th or 7th grade when I was told that, despite his exemplary character, Gandhi could not go to Heaven because he was not a Xian. IMHO, this is the worst aspect of both religions and the reason why I don't ascribe to the tenets taught to me when I was a child. I find it hard to believe God is that exclusive. BTW, Judaism, with its "chosen people" idea is scarcely better. To the faithful out there, sorry if you are offended, but this bit of doctrine is more offensive that anything I wrote here, at least to me.

[progmom]

9. I see what you're saying, and it's a shame that you were exposed to such..

...ignorance.

I believe (as do many progressive Christians) that God revealed Himself to different cultures in different forms. Anyone hubristic enough to think their's is the only true way isn't paying attention.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

20. Beautifully put

Unlike you, these people are really not concerned with faith or heavenly salvation, only earthly power. We need more like you.
:hi:

[rockymountaindem]

27. Your view of the "chosen people" aspect of Judaism is incorrect

and a common misconception. Yes, Jews consider themselves to be the "chosen people". This does not mean, however, that we are better than anyone or any closer to God just by virtue of being Jewish. "Chosen people" means that we have been chosen by God, and that we accepted His choice, to be bound by many laws we believe non-Jews are not bound by and not held responsible for. In Judaism, there are 613 laws for Jews, but only 7 for non-Jews. "Chosen people" also means that we have the special task to help God make the world a better place. Others will hopefully join us of their own free will, but Jews are mandated by our beliefs to do so. It is called "Tikkun Olam", or "repairing the world".

Jews do not believe that being the chosen people makes us any better than anyone else. Jews believe that non-Jews who live exemplary lives (like Gandhi for instance) are closer to God than wicked Jews.

Edit for punctuation

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. No. It's part of their belief.

It's very explicit, if you don't believe in God, you're going to hell. Period. No matter how much other Christians may deny it, no, Christianity will never be fully accepting of non-Christians. It's an impossibility.

[progmom]

23. See my post below.

Many people chose to interpret and apply doctrines in a very different way than you suggest.

[salin]

6. I know few Christian literalists

and few (maybe a bil as the exception) who might follow the logic you lay out.

I think that for many, the history of extreme repression and even extermination in the name of religion has created a greater tolerance that often extends beyond the corporal life (i.e., taking exception with the idea that the only single way to "heaven" is through accepting Christ). Now that I have committed blasphemy according to the literalists... I will say that many, many Christians have moved far beyond that type of belief system. Heck, for many of us the point of Christ - was the demonstration of love... love that is not "conditional".... and recognition of love from others that sometimes exceeds love among our own (eg the story of the good samaritan).

We just don't have the bully pulpit and frothing minions that get lots of attention that the literalists have.

[robcon]

7. Christianity has accepted non-Christians for centuries.

It is only the fundamentalist whack-jobs who do not.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. The "whack-jobs" seem to run things.

I don't think she was referring to individual Christians though. I think she's talking about the dogma in general.

[salin]

13. but that, too, is a broad generalization

there are hundreds (if not more) sects/divisions in Christianity. The dogma referred to is literalist - and many groups (that is - bigger than individual exceptions) do not follow literalist dogma.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

It's written right into the Bible. I don't mean to be stubborn on this, and please, absolutely correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't come across a sect of Christianity that doesn't teach the 10 Commandments.

[salin]

22. literalists

would agree with you. However many Christian groups are not literalists.

For example - for many this is tied to "greed" and the "worship" of things... and in my book the way some literalists have diminished Christ to a vessel for salvation which is to be "adored" but whose teachings are to be ignored... is very close to having, ironically, turned Christ into an idol - and they are engaged in a wierd sort of idolotry. Granted my interpretation on that last item is mine, and mine alone. But the view of what that commandment refers to is relatively common.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. Alright, I get your point.

Thank you for educating me on that.

[xchrom]

31. you are not alone in that interpretation.

liturgists in general share that view.

[salin]

37. question... which interpretation

that of "God above no other" as referring to greed for money and material goods as impediments to spiritual growth... (which I do think is very commomly held belief)

or the view of some Christian extremist views of Jesus as bordering on some sort of ironic and perverse idolotry? I have come to this view in recent times... it would be nice to know that I am not alone in this view from a religious perspective.

[msongs]

29. which 10 commandents? which are Jewish btw....

seems like there are several versions, they are ALL jewish in origin, and the xians are based on the new testament myths, except when it serves their purpose to go back to leviticus to justify their murders.
use of the bible is a matter of convenience.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

38. Abuse of religion for convenience is an age old pasttime

irrespective of culture or religion.

[liberalpress]

12. That's it..

...and there is the tempation to paint all if us with same broad brush....

[Wright Patman]

11. No, you're right,

although I am not quite as judgmental as many of my brothers and sisters.

I think you will probably just go to "heck" rather than hell.

Seriously, though, I think a fair-minded individual (of which there are fewer and fewer all the time in this country) would just agree that we should all attempt to love one another and help one another to get through whatever this is that we are going through and then leave it up to whatever invisible cloud being there may be as to what happens after that.

I think I read that Kurt Vonnegut's MD son told him much the same thing recently as they pondered the meaning of it all.

In my spirit (and I do believe I have a spirit), I am convicted that this is the right thing to do and I believe I would have been so convicted even had there never been any "holy books" telling me to do so.

[Inland]

14. Vague, unhelpful question.

"Fully accept" means what?

Fact is, christians are your neighbors and your friends. They apparently don't proseletyze to you. Do they accept you? Then apparently the philosophy and the religion don't necessarily get in the way. Maybe they aren't the best at being christian, or maybe you have your appraisal wrong, but it seems to be a non-problem on a practical level.

By the way--and this is one of those reasons why the Chrisitian threads always blow up--you made yet another false generalization about chrisitans. This "great commission" is only the evangelicals, hence the name. Most of the christian sects don't encourage their laity to seek converts, preach to the unconverted, etc.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. That's a very fair point.

[Modem Butterfly]

24. I'm speaking, of course, about the phiosophy

Xianity has changed and grown over the hundreds of years its been in existance. But it seems to me that viewing non-believers as anything other than fertile ground for proseltyzing or sin-bound wretches is too great a change for the religion to make.

[Inland]

32. Well, the test of the pudding is in the eating, said Engels.

How's it working out? Good, right? Then there can't be an irreconcilable difference.

I suggest that maybe either the religion doesn't see non-believers as MERELY sin bound wretches, or that people don't live phisophically but as people.

[Modem Butterfly]

36. I wouldn't go that far

But then, I'm a non-Xian.

[Bouncy Ball]

15. I'm a Christian and I don't accept the "great commission"

part and I do not try to convert people and have NEVER attempted to convert anyone.

I'd rather my life be judged by how I lived it and not by how many new converts I got for Christianity.

I don't know, I can't answer your question, as I am one who refuses to proselytize.

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

16. religion teaches this from the youngest of age for a couple

reasons. to keep churches full and to convince them not to stray from religion. once a person gets beyond the conditioning of mans words in religion and goes to christ conscious, then yes i think it is doable. but while one allows the selected words of the bible written by man to be their word of god, yes it is challenging. it is not necessary i dont believe, it is not healthy i dont believe. we forget the ultimate in jesus teaching that we are not to interfer with another walking their path, it is theirs to do. our job is to work on our own personal journey. if you look at mother teresa, she did not go around trying to convert people, she allowed and accepted them, for who they were, and she merely helped them in their circumstance

[dsewell]

19. Depends on the flavor of Christianity

Historically there has been a tremendous range of doctrine and belief among different Christians about non-Christians. At one extreme you have literalists who believe that unless a person is baptized with water in the name of Jesus and/or confesses Jesus Christ as a personal savior, that person will spend the whole of eternity in hell (or at least in a state of separation from God, which amounts to nearly the same thing). At another extreme you have universalists (as in Unitarian Universalists), who believe that God ultimately saves every soul.

You can't answer the question without answering the question "which form(s) of Christianity will predominate in the future?"

[G_j]

21. Xians are given the "great commission" ..not true

mainstream Churches don't seem to teach this.
I was brought up Presbyterian and we were never taught to go out and "witness" to people. I don't think Lutherans, Methodists and most other mainstream sects push "witnessing" either.
Please, at least try to be accurate.

[tuvor]

26. www.tentmaker.org

"It just seems the religion itself isn't set up to cope with the idea of non-believers as equal individuals."

Sure it is. Or at least, it's there for those who have eyes to see. Check out www.tentmaker to see what I mean.

(Sorry, I need to cut and run now.)

[salin]

28. This too, will pass.... historically, it seems,

fundamentalist belief systems increase in their numbers and influence in periods of great technolgoical /industrial/economic change. Folks get scared at a primordal level and reach for something rigid and "safe" to cling to. But the tenants are so repressive and so hard to live up to that the hold loosens and ebbs. In this era of mass media - I think that the media helped the trend rise more rapidly (by being able to reach the fearful and disaffected - starting back in the eighties as the tech and economy was changing)... and I think it will play a role in the ebbing as well - as the sideshow aspect and the political abuses are more widely in plain view.

[Discord]

30. NO. Our beliefs are in direct contradiction to theirs.

We can respect people. But here is very little common ground on this topic when it comes to discussing it. The very nature of each others positions and beliefs are "offensive" to the other.

We are stuck in a vicious cirle.

You can't talk about christianity without non-religious people taking offense, and we can't say we think your religion is complete bullshit without christians taking offense.

[Inland]

35. So let's not talk about it.

I mean, look at the original post.

There's friends who are christian and there doesn't seem to be a problem, except on some distant "philosophical" level that they may never get to.

I want my neighbor to clean up after his dog. That is a lot more tension than his religion, which I don't know.

[Zynx]

33. This is inaccurate, at least for mainstream Catholics

I'm not speaking for Mel Gibson's whacked-out version of Catholicism, btw. To say that is fringe would be an understatement.

As far as Catholics, we say prayers for non-Christians and atheists in our Mass intercessions. They are not considered future Christians or lost causes and there is no call in Mass to go convert them.

The more traditional Apostolic Churches also are not particularly interested in mass conversion - its actually quite difficult to join the Catholic Church as an adult.

[mondo joe]

34. All that's required is for people to understand that their religious value

s end with THEM and don't spill on to other people.