How Comfortable are you with Different Religous Points of View

[bryant69]

Just to see how this goes. Obviously this poll is not the best. To get a real read on this issue you would need a much larger survey. In particular my division isn't exactly right - in reality you need three groups (at least) (Christians, Non-Christian believers, and Atheist / Agnostics).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Other: "All religions are equally flawed"

[bryant69]

4. All religious beliefs, you mean?

Atheism is a religious belief; is that equally flawed?

[BlueEyedSon]

12. Since when is being an atheist a religious belief? Is bald a hair color?

[bryant69]

14. No but it is a hair style

Atheism is a belief about religion, a belief about God. That's my opinion anyway.

[KansDem]

26. You might be on to something here...

It is a common belief that baldness is determined by the mother's side of the family. And it can be said that the mother is the primary "religion giver" or the one more likely to make the young'uns go to church. Therefore, "hair style" and "worship style" are determined by the mother, so there really is a connection!

Man, I just LOVE the DU!

[BlueEyedSon]

Atheism is not a belief. It is a rational position: *not* believing

in something for which there is no evidence.

Your argument sounds like the right wing tactic that is very popular lately: reduce discussion of objective truths to a matter of "opinion".

[bryant69]

46. I guess you are right

Maybe I would be more comfortable on the right wing. I mean I disagree with them on pretty much every issue (including teaching Creationism in the schools), but I see Atheism as a belief. Yeah. You've convinced me.

I guess my other option would be to accept the non-existance of God as an "objective truth" and abandon my faith completely. What an appetizing selection of choices you've offered me Blue Eyed Son.

[BlueEyedSon]

55. Believe what you want, I was talking about "evidence"

The Dragon In My Garage
by
Carl Sagan
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floates in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?

More: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

[bryant69]

60. Good response

Certainly the best way to get people on your side is to make sure you think they are morons for believing in what they believe. I mean I can feel my opinions changing already.

[BlueEyedSon]

63. Do you think that Muslims are morons? Or Buddhists? Or Hindus?

And if they're not, why don't you believe the same as they do? Are not their religions "as good as" yours?

There are 4 or 5 major religions in the world (and a many flavors of those!), with pretty stark differences in beliefs and practices. They can't all be "right", can they? So believing "correctly" is due to an accident of birth or a lucky choice as an adult, don't you think?

[bryant69]

65. I don't think that anybody is a moron based on this issue

Maybe Fundamentalists of various stripes. But I didn't post an generalized attack on Atheists--as far as I know I never have.

That story was insulting, and it was intended to be insulting. It was intended to say that my religious beliefs are as ludicrus as beliving in an invisible dragon.

And as for the second part question, that requires a longer answer, but the short version, from my point of view, is that God has a plan for each of his children - while I believe my religion to be the most correct, that doesn't require me to believe that all other religious beliefs are full of crap. A person who does his best to live a good life and to be a good person, even an atheist, will be rewarded for what they do.

[BlueEyedSon]

67. Your faith is weak if that dragon story bugged you.

Anyway I didn't write it. If you don't know the author, look him up. Everything about him and his life were "good" and added great value to science & humanity.

By the same logic that led you to decide that the dragon story makes you out to be a moron, you are in effect suggesting Hindus are "morons" because you do not see "the dragon in their garage."

[bryant69]

69. I do know who Carl Sagan is

I think he was generally a great man, but that doesn't mean I'm required to agree with everything he said. But I do appreciate how you managed to work in two insults of your own.

[BlueEyedSon]

71. I hope you don't think this is #3.....

By the same logic that led you to decide that the dragon story makes you out to be a moron, you are in effect suggesting Hindus are "morons" because you do not see "the dragon in their garage."

[bryant69]

75. That's total crap.

Saying "I respect Hindus, and I believe that there are many good points to their religion, but I do not accept it as completely true" is different than saying "Believing in God is the same as believing there is an invisible dragon in your Garage." If you can't see the difference between those two statements, than you I don't know what to say.

There are arguments you can make in favor of atheism that don't start with assuming a believer is either delusional or a moron.

[BlueEyedSon]

76. I would never say that.... it's more like believing in Santa Claus. nt

[BlueEyedSon]

72. Anyway, the unexamined life and all that.

Glad to see you are considering the posibilities!

[Discord]

23. YES!!!!!!!! Bingo.. someone hit the tip of the iceberg

of why non-religious people are so friggin pissed off...

Our RIGHT to have NO religion in our lives IS our RELIGION.

We deserve the same rights under the protections of the constitution to live our lives FREE of religion.

Bald may not have a color, but the person should not be persecuted by everyone with hair to grow some, or be offended when we think bald is beautiful, and people with hair need to stop pestering us with constant pressure to grow hair, or sell us hair products. And say we're not good consumers because we are not buying hair products.

[BlueEyedSon]

33. This is interesting. So there might be an upside to arguing that

agnosticism/atheism/freethinking/secular humanaism are RELIGIONS and deserve equal rights and protections...?

Hmmm.

[Discord]

37. yes. that we have the right to religios freedoms or in our

cases. Freedom FROM religion.

[Left Is Write]

17. No. Atheism is the absence of religious belief.

[bryant69]

24. I'd argue that Agnosticism is the absense of Religious Belief

Atheists have a belief when it comes to religion, it is just a belief in the non-existance of the basis of religion.

[Left Is Write]

30. No. "Theism" is the presence of a religious belief.

Therefore, by definition, "atheism" is the absence of religious belief.

Agnosticism is not the absence of religious belief. Agnostics may or may not believe in God, but what makes them agnostic is the idea that there isn't any (or enough) evidence to know or be certain there is or isn't a God or Gods.

[bryant69]

35. Word games

Fun!

Does an Agnostic have a belief on the existance of a God or Gods? No, she believes that there isn't enough evidence one way or another.

Does an Athiest have a belif on the existance of a God or Gods? Yes, she believes that God or Gods definately do not exist.

What is the religion of a belief in God or Gods to most religions? Central (with a few notable exceptions).

At least that's my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Left Is Write]

39. An agnostic doesn't necessarily fall on the side of "no God."

An agnostic may believe that God exists and still be agnostic. Or an agnostic may believe there probably isn't a God, but, unlike an atheist, doesn't believe there can be certainty about it.

An atheist is certain there is no God. An atheist does not have a religious belief.

[bryant69]

41. OK

Why is the certainty that there is no God not a religious belief?

[Discord]

43. It is... its just not an accepted one.

Its viewed in general with the same distain that witches and satanists are.

[Left Is Write]

50. Just to clarify -

I don't view atheism with disdain at all. But atheism is, literally, the absence of theism. The absence of religion and religious belief.

I don't mean that in a pejorative way; just a "precise language" way.

[Discord]

52. So, you don't believe that the freedom of religion

should include ones right to live free FROM religion?

If everyone interpeted the Contitution that way would would have never had civil rights in this country.

[bryant69]

53. I don't know how you got that

From her post.

I also don't see what you mean by being free to live free from religious. In the sense that you should have the right not to go to church or not to participate in a religion I'd totally agree. Is that it?

[Discord]

57. thats a very small part of being allowed to live

free from religion. religion is a driving force in this country. IMHO religion crosses the line the second it leaves the church or home.

[bryant69]

66. Hmmmm.

Well we are going to have to disagree there.

[Discord]

74. On which part or blanketly? nt

[bryant69]

93. Well it would depend on how far you are willing to carry it

If someone says "Have a blessed day" or says "God Bless You" after a sneeze, or has a picture or a religious symbol on their desk, or weres a cross that, technically, constitutes carrying their religion out of their home and churches. If all of those are offensive to you, and you feel you should be constitutionally protected from each, well I would disagree with that seriously.

[Left Is Write]

56. Of course I do.

What did I say that indicated otherwise?

[Discord]

58. here...

"An atheist is certain there is no God. An atheist does not have a religious belief."

and almost all of your post #48

edited to add quotations

[Left Is Write]

79. But how does that equate to not believing in freedom of religion

and/or freedom from religion?

I am sincerely confused here.

[Discord]

81. lets try this...

You posted this:

"An agnostic may believe that God exists and still be agnostic. Or an agnostic may believe there probably isn't a God, but, unlike an atheist, doesn't believe there can be certainty about it."

An atheist is certain there is no God.
An atheist does not have a religious belief.

You were asked to clarify your assertation...

“Why is the certainty that there is no God not a religious belief? “

To which you responded.

"I don't view atheism with disdain at all. But atheism is, literally, the absence of theism. The absence of religion and religious belief.

I don't mean that in a pejorative way; just a "precise language" way."

I posed to you, that in defending a literalinterpretationn of atheist, this exact “precise language” is what is being used to exclude our right to live free from religion.

My quote:

“So, you don't believe that the freedom of religion should include ones right to live free FROM religion?

If everyone interpeted the Contitution that way would would have never had civil rights in this country.”

You asked for clarification on how I came to the conclusion that…

Well, when read in its parts, seems kinda straight forward to me.

[Left Is Write]

88. It's not straightforward to me; in fact, it seems rather a leap.

And an incorrect one at that.

I would like to know how defining atheism as an absence of religion in any way "excludes" your right to live free from religion.

Atheism is the absence of religion. Atheists, therefore, are, in fact choosing to live without religion ("free from religion") and I am in full support of your right to do so. I still don't understand how you concluded otherwise.


edited typo.

[Discord]

90. Because there are many aspects of everyday life

that I and not given a choice. I can easily tolerate that the majority of this country are religious, and the majority of them christians. But when religion is seeping into politics at the rate that it is, when religion starts directly affecting legislation, when people speak out against organized religion and are demonized, even by people within their own political parties, then its easy to see when your opinions are not skewed by vested intrest, that this is a major problem. Thing of us non-religious folks as the first line of defense against the trends of theocracy. We see it long before others may see it. We are more sensative to its advances, because we are dyametricly opposed to it. When we sound the alarm, we are often ignored and further demonized, but by the time most people see it and realize that we are headed in a very bad direction, it will already be because its too late. Remember the famous... "when they came for me..." quote. The fundies are as much a threat to you as they are to the rest of this country, but its the widespead apathy and quiet concessions made by all of christianity that have allowed the fundies to even get this far. If your seeing a problem, its the same ones we've been complaining about for years, decades, and longer since the origins of this country. fighting to keep the seperation of church and state intact. Seems though that we are the only ones who speak out about it.

[Left Is Write]

91. I have been talking to some of my friends who are atheists

in an effort to discover where the breakdown in communication occurred between you and me.

You are reading something I did not say or mean, and that's possibly just because you have a filter that is different from mine.

When I defined atheism as the absence of religion (taking it in its purest form, the prefix "a-" in front of "theism"), I was not attaching any political meaning to the definition. I thought I was discussing linguistics only. I interpret freedom of and from religion to include the protection of any religious view or lack thereof.

One of my friends, although she does not view her atheism as any form of religion, said she could rather understand your point about fundies. She said she is sure there are those who would seek to define freedom of religion as protecting only religion and not the absence of it.

If that is the POV from which you read my post, then that's where the breakdown occured. My definition of atheism as an absence of religion does not in any way mean that I don't think atheists should be afforded the protections of freedom of religion.

The possibility was also pointed out to me that many atheists prefer not to be "defined" by theists any more than some theists want to be "defined" by atheists. If that's the case here, then I will apologize. I wasn't attempting to define any individual's beliefs, only word as constructed.

[Pacifist Patriot]

94. Makes sense to me....

I've tried to follow this discussion and couldn't figure out the breakdown either. For what it is worth I never got the impression you had anything against atheists or felt their beliefs were not worthy of protection. I have no idea where that may have come from. I even re-read post 48 that was referenced and still can't figure out why he interpreted it the way he did.

[Discord]

101. Ok. I see what your saying.

Yeah, I had misinterpeted what you were implying with your posts.

I think it may have been a carryover from one of the many other threads I was replying to on this subject and was overly defensive about the position I thought you had taken.

I appologize for my minsinterpetation.

And you were also correct in understanding the position I was lobbying.

:)

[Left Is Write]

104. No problem.

Coming to an understanding is always a good thing, I think.

:)

[Left Is Write]

48. Because a religious belief is predicated on the existence of a God

or other higher power, and is based on the spiritual teachings related to that higher power.

Atheism is the absence of such belief. That's neither a good thing nor a bad thing, it just is what it is.

[bryant69]

49. Like I said earlier - Word Games

If I understand you correctly, a religious belif isn't a belief about religion, but a belief predicated on the belief in the higher power. I guess that definition works. But then what would you call a belief about God that is not predicated on his existance?

[Left Is Write]

54. Yes, religious belief is a "belief about religion", because

"religious belief" and "religion" are essentially the same thing.

Atheism isn't precisely a "belief about God", it's the belief that there IS no God. Period. No God, no supernatural being, no higher power - nothing. Because a "religious belief" is specifically based on the existence of such a being, atheism cannot be correctly defined as a religious belief. It is the absence of such.

Look at the word form. The prefix "a-" means without. Theism means belief in the existence of God (or gods); in other words, religious belief. Thus, atheism literally means without religious belief.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go practice two of my religions: consumerism and muscularism. (I'm going to watch The Price Is Right while lifting weights.) I'll be back for more language dancing later, if you're so inclined.

[Discord]

62. Sounds kinda like the fundie belief of the

rule that every verse in the bible is to be taken literally.

Sounds like those who opposed a womens rights to vote because "All MEN were created equal"

Sounds like anti-abortionists who support pro-life stances because of our right to "LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

Sounds like those who would believe that the BELIEF that there is no God or higher power, is not protected by our Constitution because of ones interpretation of "freedom of religion" to only include those who conform to it.

I may not exercise my Freedom of Speech, but I am protected FROM it.
One may not slander me.
I may not exercise my Freedom of the Press, but I am protected FROM it.
One may not write in a way as to invoke hatred or harm to another.
I may not exercise my Freedom to Peaceably Assemble, but I am protected FROM it.
One may not assemble on my private property.
I may not exercise my Freedom to Bear Arms, but I am protected FROM it.
One cannot use it to intimidate or threaten another.
I may not exercise my Freedom of Religion, but I SHOULD be protected FROM it.
I SHOULD not be persecuted by those who would think less of me or be subjected to their beliefs or ideals.

Spelling edit

[Left Is Write]

80. You are reading an awful lot of stuff I never said.

I'm defining the word atheist. If you want to believe atheism is a form of religion, knock yourself out.

[Discord]

86. it is a form of religion because its exclusion from

it is a fundamental basis for invasion on our rights. In all other cases, the rights extend to those who choose not to exercize those rights are protected as well.

I am not required to own a gun, write a paper, speak my mind, or join a rally, for to require me to do so would disallow my freedom to choose.

I do not have a choice as to how much, if any, religion I want to be a part of my everyday life. There are few restrictions controlling the ever constant flow of religion into society, politics, and culture.

[Pacifist Patriot]

95. You are aware that you are engaging in the word games too and...

not merely an observer, yes?

I can actually see this from both of your points of view and think you have both made valid arguments.

A - theism literally means "no God"

Religion has many definitions, but most people accept that it contains a spiritual component involving metaphysical or supernatural mythology.

To me, atheism is a way of perceiving the world that includes the conscious decision to disassociate a spiritual component from existence so it is a belief about religion but is not generally a held religious belief. Most atheists I know who have a "religious life" do so in UU groups, humanist societies, etc. but do not consider themselves religious people.

I believe the founding principles and documents for the U.S. grant religious freedom with respect to both religious beliefs and beliefs about religion. From what I've read of this thread it seems that this is what LIW is saying too.

Given the richness and dynamism of the English language this discussion could go on for years. ;)

[Discord]

102. yes, this debate has raged on since the

first religions appeared on the earth.

Religion, for many, is a way of understanding the many great philosophical questions.
Why are we here? Where do we come from? Whats our purpose?

Some look to religion, some try philosophy, some opt for science, some take a combination of them.

We all, as human beings, desire to understand. Understand ourselves, our humanity, our place in the great scheme of things.

One of the biggest misconceptions about atheists or people who are non-religious, is that they lack spirituality, which in many cases is simply not true.

I have a well developed sense of self and understanding. I have formed my beliefs on principles I have learned from many different sources. I started out as a Methodist, then began to learn about other forms of spirituality, like Buddhism, Paganism, Shamanism, Discordianism, and Metaphysical Science.
My "religion" is a combination of all of the above, though I may have no subscription to any single way of thinking.

[Pacifist Patriot]

103. Are you familiar with theosophy?

[charlie]

47. More fun

If I reject science, then I'm practicing the Science of Unscientifism.

If I'm apolitical, I'm an adherent of the Politics of Apoliticality.

Actually, I think it's kind of neat that I might be unwittingly inducted into a religion everytime I take a pass on a worldview. Look a GHOST!... huh? naw... BANG! I'm a newly minted member of the Church of the Afterlife Without an Afterlife.

[gollygee]

92. No

Athiesm and agnosticsm are two different issues.

Athiesm and theism mean either you believe in God or you don't.

Agnosticism and gnosticism mean either you believe it is possible to know one way or the other, or you don't believe it's possible to know.

An agnostic athiest (which I am) doesn't believe there is a god, but don't think it's possible to know for sure. A gnostic athiest doesn't believe there is a god, and feels it is possible to know absolutely there isn't a god.

An agnostic thesit believes in God but doesn't think it's possible to know for sure. A gnostic theist believes in God and believes that it is possible to know absolutely that God exists.

They are two separate issues.

[BlueEyedSon]

31. Well, in that case you would be wrong.

[flamin lib]

2. All I can possibly know for sure

is that I can't possibly know for sure . . .

[DireStrike]

3. I am an agnostic comfortable interacting with MOST christians

Some hardcore folks are intolerable.

[ixion]

5. Other: I can interact with anyone as long as they don't preach to me

about how I'm going to hell because I don't believe what they believe.

Spirituality is a private matter, IMO.

[Bridget Burke]

7. I'm quite capable of interacting with someone preaching to me.

Polite refusal is the first reaction. Sarcasm may follow if the preacher doesn't take the hint.

However, I don't believe the very act of being preached at will infect me with God Cooties.

[ixion]

25. I'm considering 'interaction' in a positive sense

Albeit from a purist standpoint, refusal and sarcasm is a type of interaction, I'm taking this context of interaction to mean something constructive and positive.

My normal reaction to fundies is to smile at that them and say something along the lines of 'okay, thanks, buh-bye now".

But I don't consider that in the realm of a positive interaction, except perhaps of the standpoint of it makes them go away. ;-)

[FreedomAngel82]

19. I'm with you

As I've always said to republicans: my religious beliefs are between me and my God. Not me and my government so butt out!

[Chovexani]

70. Me too. (n/t)

[sui generis]

6. I split religious people into two kinds:

1. religion is a private matter of faith
2. religion is all your minds are belong to me, submit fool!

I hate proselytizers - even if they're atheists.

[Steel City Slim]

8. I Am Agnostic And I Am Comfortable Interacting....

....with people no matter what their beliefs happen to be. Until they start trying to impose those beliefs on me.

[Discord]

9. I voted I think the poll is bogus

just from the answers that have been given so far.

[bryant69]

10. Could you elaborate?

I mean I admit that the poll is flawed in its set up, but I'm curious how the poll is messed up because of the answers?

[Discord]

16. because the non-religious people who answered...

answered honestly. Note the spread of answers across the range of comfort they feel.

Every chistian who voted claim they have no issues talking with non-religious people. But are the ones on the boards screaming bloody murder every time we talk about our views as being offensive to them.

Its bogus, and self-dilusion.

It seems to me that Xtians obliviously trample our beliefs and our right to speak of them, but feel appropriate to say anything they want about their religion.

[bryant69]

21. OK.

I disagree with that assessment, but I am a Christian, so I guess you might expect that.

If someone posts an attack on Christianity, than there's a good chance I would respond, in the same way that if someone else posted an attack on your belief system. I also think that there is a distinction that is often lost between the Religious fundamentalists who drive us all nuts and more regular or even liberal Christians who might post here.

[Discord]

27. look at the answers. they speak for themselves.

ALL christinas so far SAY they are comfortable...

If they we're these threads would have died out long ago.

[bryant69]

29. Huh

One could argue that I don't see the kind of attacks on Atheism that I see regularly on Christianity as a counter point. In other words I've read many a starting post ripping into Christianity (and seen Christians respond to it, sometimes not in the best spirit). But most posts started by Christians are more about how we need to reclaim our religion from those right wing fanatics.

I am talking about regular DUers not Conservative Instigators that pop up from time to time.

[Discord]

36. its because you are blind to them

and because you have never walked a mile in their shoes.

If your not a minority, you often dont see the subtle ways racism has creeped into our very culture. Many don't do it with malice or bad intent, but their insensativity to it is perpetuating the problem.

I have a friend of mine, who is a second generation African American. His family has no historical ties to the American past. But when one day, I mentioned to him that I just don't see racism all that much anymore (I live in the Northeast), he said he see's it every day. That not a day goes by that he is remined that he is a minority in this country, and often does not feel accepted as an American, even though he was born to this country. He spent the next 3-4 hours explaining to me how our desensitization to the everyday behavior of people is just a much less overt form of racism. After the conversation, I was really awakened to how people do this every day without realizing it. It also allpies to all forms prejudice. If your not part of the minority group, you often just cannot see how your actions, behavior, and speech reflects that insensativity.

[bryant69]

38. OK.

It's a subtle argument, that basically boils down to "You should probably just assume that as a Christian, your probably a bastard too." But maybe I'm reading you wrong.

[Discord]

42. Your reading it wrong

I have never called a Christian a bastard because of their belief. I respect others as human beings reguardless of their beliefs. I'm just saying that the majority often does not realize in what ways they oppress the minority.

[quinnox]

11. no problem with any religion

It can be interesting to explore all religions and their philosophies.

I probably have most in common with agnostics, basically an open mind in spiritual matters

To be a little more clear, I do have a problem with doomsday cults that kill themselves in mass suicides such as Heavens Gate or others, or any religion that seeks to convert people by force.

When I say religions I mean the major ones, like Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism etc

[readmylips]

13. Religion is now Politics....

to hell with religion. We don't need organized religion to have faith and worship. What we need if peace, education, tolerance in each one of us.

[G_j]

15. just don't try to 'convert 'me,

be it to Atheism, Christianity or anything else.

[Desertrose]

45. amen, bro...I mean

I agree with you...

I don't even think about converting anyone else and don't want anyone to try it on me..I belong to no "religion" for that reason...be it atheist or theist....

:hi: :hug:
DR

[G_j]

51. I have to admit, it does bother me when ppl try to 'save'

me, either from a pagan hell, or from "fairy tale Christian beliefs".
Just respect me enough to leave me be.
(end of mini-rant)

:hi: :hug:
G_j

[Desertrose]

68. I mean...what if I don't WANT to be saved LOL

I agree with your mini-rant...totally:)
:loveya:
DR

[ProfessorGAC]

18. What About Folks Like Me?

I absolutely have no concern about beliefs in general. Not mine. Not anybody else's. I just don't care one way or the other. What does that make me? I don't know. I'm not an atheist, really, because i never give it any thought. I don't care if there is or isn't a God. I don't care what other people think. That's not atheism, or even agnosticism, since both of those require some personal position that falls on one side of belief or the other.

I've had this discussion with others here. I already know i have not yet found a good way to put into words what my position is, but this is the best nutshell i can find. I put absolutely no emotional, spiritual, or intellectual energy into the topic.

Therefore, i'm ok with anybody and with anything they want to believe, or not believe, as long as they don't bother me with it. I don't want to hear about people's religion at all, but i don't want to hear about someone's atheism either.

Thus, the poll is bogus for me.
The Professor

[Discord]

28. but what do you feel when one group or anothers

decisions affect your rights?
Even when not talking about religious rights, but someones reproductive rights? Their social rights? When people are persecuted because of their beliefs or lack thereof?

[ProfessorGAC]

59. Completely Different Issue

The poll and this thread were about how we interact based upon faith, lack thereof, or in my case, complete disregard of the topic. You positing a completely different issue.

On that matter i would have difficulty in civil interaction with anyone who is trying to diminish my right to live my life with minimal interference.
The Professor

[Discord]

77. It is part of the main issue though.

most non-religious people feel disregarded, disrespected, oppressed and downright threatened by institutionalized religion. We are definitely a minority group. only about 10% of this country is non-religious, and it seems half of them are here. Which is nice to see for me personally. I feel our rights are being ignored by and large. We have been demonized in the public eye, in other religions, and in politics. Its very presence in politics is a direct infringement of our rights and lack of respect thereof. I'm sorry, I just can't accept the bitching and moaning of a 90% majority and the failure to claim any responsibility for it. Everyone just keeps passing the responsibility along saying... "It's not me. It's those ones over there."
And while on an individual level, that is a very valid point. But when you consider the scope of things, its like white people (am I am white so can say this) complaining about racism. While yes, there are different ways to frame the argument to cite individual cases for both sides, it neglects that its not the individuals its the system that is the source of the problem.
One poster previously brought us a very important aspect. Every time you give money to a church, regardless of your individual beliefs, your money is going into an oppressive institution. They claim that the parish needs money to stay open. Well yeah, like any other business, if their not making a profit, they'll move somewhere else that will. The religious institution finances bring in billions of tax free dollars every year. Does most people honestly believe that your local church will go bankrupt if you stopped giving them money? Seriously, they close down because its a business decision, they will just open up another church somewhere else. Somewhere the moneys still flowing.

[Inland]

32. I hear ya...

I would like to say that I have given spiritual matters a huge deal of thought for the purpose of coming to a principled conclusion..but the fact is, I can't. I don't avoid church out of any great belief of lack thereof. I avoid it because I don't feel like it on a Sunday morning. What does that make me? A bad christian? A bad atheist? And what if I give up without an answer?

[ProfessorGAC]

61. My Point Exactly

What does one call us, Inland? Nothing people? I avoid the topic because i actually have thought about it and have consciously decided that the deeper introspection is so unlikely to provide any benefit, that i don't feel like spending the energy.

My departure from the Catholic Church, while in a catholic high school (and from an italian family at age 14, back in 1970) was due solely to the fact that i just didn't care. It meant nothing to me. It did nothing for me, and like you, i resented the time i was obligated to provide when i'd rather be doing something else.

I've been the same since. It just really, truly doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
The Professor

[Inland]

64. I'm afraid of what they could call us

Lazy.

I also wonder about the concept of being an "ex-something". I keep thinking that an ex-something is still the something. An ex catholic isn't the same as an ex-lutheran. There must be something residual in me--prejudice? Rhetorical flourishes? Or something I can draw on when I need an argument?

There was a passage in a book (which I either read or someone else quoted a passage) that went something like this.

He was insulting God, saying that He didn't care about the humans who died tragically, and she began to weep and told him to stop..
"Why are you crying? You don't believe in God."
"Yes, but the God I don't believe in is a kind, loving God. The God you don't believe in is cruel and hateful."

Sometimes I feel like that.

[BlueEyedSon]

78. In conventional language you would be labeled as a "atheist".

Anyway, hearing about religion is not the problem. There is an active, large and growing group of Americans that want to LEGISLATE their beliefs. Yikes!

[ProfessorGAC]

97. Then Conventional Language Would Be Wrong, No?

I neither believe nor disbelieve. I give it NO thought at all. If there's something out there as a higher power, ok, but i don't really care. If there isn't, that's ok too. I still don't care. I live my life through a set of what i would guess are intrinsic ethics. There are just things that are the right things to do and the right way to act. I'm not looking for any rewards on the back end. I'm not trying to avoid any punishment. Things just are what they are.

If someone says that atheism, then they're wrong. An atheist has to have consciously decided that there is no god and moves along on that premise. I never even consider the question, so little is my concern one way or the other. Those are two completely different positions.
The Professor

[BlueEyedSon]

98. Oh no, you disbelieve. by the conventional modes of "belief"

[ProfessorGAC]

99. How Can I Disbelieve?

That's a semantic trick that isn't going to work. You'll have to do much better. There is no rejection of belief, nor is there any effort to make sense of the existence of one. I reject nothing other than the mental energy it takes to care one way or the other.

Look up the word atheist. It requires a rejection that a higher power exists. I posit no such rejection. There are not the same thing.

Simply suggesting that the word means something it doesn't is not solid logic. That's what you've done. I am not an atheist. I am a nothing! The concept is simply not on my intellectual or life radar systems. It is a 100% irrelevancy. I do not, however, reject the possibility that something exists that i could care about. Hence, the term A-THEIST (absense of a belief in a god or gods) is incorrect.
The Professor

[BlueEyedSon]

100. fuggedaboudit

[liberalitch]

20. I really don't like being told I'm going to hell...

As a buddhist I just tell them that they're coming back as a snail darter so they better pray for funding

[0007]

22. When anyone pushing religion knocks on my door calls me

or starts proselytizing in person, I become extremely rude.

[Left Is Write]

34. I don't like to be proselytized either, and

I am a Lutheran. (I don't usually go around saying things like "I am Christian" other than necessary identifiers in discussions like these online, because I don't think "Christian" is specific enough - it could mean almost anything under the huge umbrella that encompasses so many beliefs. Sometimes I don't think "Lutheran" is specific enough either, because Lutheranism has its fundamentalists also.)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. I'm comfortable with eveyone's beliefs until they start legislating

unreasonably.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. second thought - very comfortable unless they're delivered like an enema

[H2O Man]

44. Other.

I am a Christian, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Pagan, an Atheist, an Agnostic, and a Gnostic .... among other things. I am comfortable with all open-minded and sincere people. And I try to be patient with all people with diseased minds, who are bitter and hateful ..... no matter if they call themselves theists or atheists.

[demokatgurrl]

73. Is "RELIGION" synonymous with "Christian"????

The very answers to the poll support my view that the majority of people in this country who are affiliated with a religion are 1) Christian and 2) intolerant of other religions.

I am NOT Christian, but I DO affiliate with and practice a religion. It's my personal belief and practice, and I don't try to shove it down other peoples' throats, but this country was FOUNDED on the principle that I should be allowed to practice MY religion. I am increasingly worried about that right.

[Arkana]

82. Whatever happened to the "I like vanilla" option?

Atheist here, and I could care less who everyone else believes in--but their religious beliefs stop where mine begin.

[BiggJawn]

83. Rob is a Dingbat.

Even though this isn't his poll.

[Mass]

84. Too Christian centered

In fact you should have:

- practicing a religion
- affiliated with a religion, but non practicing
- atheist/ agnostic.

Here, you are giving a predominent place to Christians. This is probably true given the demographics of this country, but this also flaws the poll.

I am in the third category, but have no problem with anybody affiliated or practicing a religion as long as they dont try to impose it on me.

[johnaries]

85. The Taoist Sage Chuang-tse once told the parable

of an emperor who, having heard that a rare and beautiful bird had been sighted in the courtyard, commanded that the bird be captured and brought to him so that he could honor it.

He laid out a rich feast of the finest meats and cheeses for the bird, had the finest musicians in the country perform for the bird's entertainment, and provided the finest silk pillows for the bird to sleep on.

Eventually, the bird starved to death.

Moral: everyone is different and has different needs. Don't judge other's needs by your own.

[lastliberalintexas]

89. How about prosecution under RICO?

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with anyone's beliefs, religious, spiritual, political or otherwise. Everyone is entitled to believe as they see fit, so long as they leave me alone.

However, I do have a tremendous problem with *organized* religion, be it the Vatican, the SBC, or any of the other multitude of organizations which fleece their subjects and act to impose their belief system through the government. And invariably, they ALL do, no matter how well intentioned the organization may be.

And like "organized" crime, many of the religious institutions could also be prosecuted under RICO for various violations.

I'm not very popular with my Christian friends when I say such things. But I've never understood why they can't divorce support for their beliefs from support for their buildings and institutions. It's like the people who say we must support Bush in order to truly support the troops, when really, one has nothing to do with the other.

[UdoKier]

96. Atheist, and uncomfortable with ANY religion people who proselytize.

I can deal with people who keep their religion to themselves, or who can talk about religious ideas in a detached way, without proselytizing.

I really dislike all religions. I think that if there is a supreme being or a spiritual plane, religion is probably the most surefire road AWAY from them.

But I'm no more uncomfortable with Christian fundies than I am with people from my wife's Buddhist cult (Soka Gakkai). The techniques may vary, but the goal is always the same, to make YOU think and live like THEM.

I'd rather be ME.