Seriously, what's up with the no beer before you're 21 thing in the US?

[_TJ_]

Is this more fundie irrationality or what? You can get a beer here
at 18 and many bars turn a blind eye to 16-17 year olds if you
don't obviously look underage. In france it's legal at 16!

What is the thinking behind this? I would have went nuts if I
had to stay sober through my late teens.

This is NOT a flame or an America bash! I just want to understand
it is all.

Cheers! :D

TJ

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

[Warpy]

25. Yes, partially

because when the age was lowered to 18, the real age for drinking was effectively lowered to about 15, and this started a lot of shrieking about saving the children. MADD had a lot of help from suburban parents and even mainstream preachers.

Phooey.

What they should have done is lower the age for beer and wine to 14 and raised the driving age to 18, thus giving kids a chance to see what alcohol really did to them while they were still on bicycles. It's hard as hell to tell yourself you drive better drunk when you're picking the gravel out of your knees. It's easy to do when you get that car home safely after scaring the hell out of everybody else on the road.

This is pretty much what they do in European countries, where the drinking age outside the home is generally in the early to mid teens, and they have a much less severe problem with drunken driving crashes.

The way we're doing it now is certainly not working.

[_TJ_]

27. Or raise the insurance for teens

to ASTRONOMICAL levels. Works for us ;)

I reckon an 18 year old here will pay a good $8000 insurance per
year even on a car with an engine the size of a hairdryer.

Often insurance for your first car can cost 2-3 times the price
of the car (used of course) !

[SidDithers]

41. I'm a member of DAMM

Drunks agains Mad Mothers.

Sid

[Reverend_Smitty]

2. I don't know either...

at 18 you are young enough to be sentenced to death...er um...join the military but you can't have a beer. I'm just gonna blame it on the Puritans. They started a lot of fucked up thinking that infests American culture today

[babylonsister]

8. In the early 70s 18 was the legal drinking age in NY.

That was changed shortly after. I think too many dwi's by young ones were finally noticed.

[Reverend_Smitty]

15. See I don't think that is such a great arguement...

because back in the day, there wasn't a terrible emphasis on DUI's. I've talked to people who used to keep brandy under their seat to drink on cold winter days. When you got pulled over for drunk driving all the cops would do was dump your beer and make you walk home. It was a national problem (one that thankfully is being addressed now) but I think everyone, not just 18-21 year olds were a part of.

[Inland]

22. Yes, there is such a huge crackdown on DUI now

if that had happened first, then the drunk driving might have gone donw in the younger ages as much, or more, than others and no special law would have been needed. We'll never know.

[Withywindle]

3. I remember when the laws started changing, state by state...

just before I turned 18, dammit!


I think it's two factors. Puritanism and overprotection of young people is one of them, but the really big one is because we're so automobile-dependent here. Novice drivers AND novice drinkers + sprawly suburbs w/congested high speed freeways = lots of tragic death. Since in most states you get your driver's license at 16, I think the idea was to at least theoretically let young people have more years learning to drive before they start drinking too.

[efhmc]

30. Louisiana was one of the last states to change and they changed

because highway funding monies were going to be withheld unless they acquiesced.

[sir_captain]

4. I think the only rational argument

is that America has a much larger driving culture than pretty much anywhere else, and 16 year old drivers and the ability to buy alcohol legally could potentially be problematic. I can see the rationale, though clearly, I'm not sure how effective it is.

[UdoKier]

5. Because Puritan America likes to ban things ratheer than teach...

responsible use.

Hence the ridiculous beer-bong, blowout mentality among young people here. The fact that it's verboten makes it that much more appealing.

This is the only country I've been where drinking is taken to such idiotic extremes.

It's much more of a fun, comeraderie thing in other countries...

[Reverend_Smitty]

11. Absoulutely...

the "forbidden fruit" mentality works so well on teenagers. I mean we hardly have any problems with underage drinking and teen sex in this country :sarcasm: (hey I got to use a new smiley!)

[_TJ_]

13. Good point, my dad brought me down the pub when

I was 17 and taught me to drink responsibly. A lot of parents do
that here.

However, we still drink more than any country in Europe. D'oh!! :D

[Bluzmann57]

6. Very good question

When I was 18, that was the legal age in this state. A few years later, they moved it up to 19, and then up to 21. It is my stance that if you are old enough to fight and possibly die for this country, then why shouldn't you be able to enjoy an adult beverage or two? I am pretty sure it was originally a safety and MADD issue here in Iowa, though, to attempt to answer your question.

[XemaSab]

7. Fundies

Who would like to ban all liquor everywhere.

We had prohibition enshrined in the constitution 80 years ago, and we still have dry counties, state liquor stores, and states where you can't buy liquor on Sunday.

[CornField]

Alcohol is a tool of satan

At least, that's what I was told while growing up. :)

The age limit might be something that was a compromise when prohibition was lifted. I'm not sure without looking it up.

[BuyingThyme]

9. It's more fun to drink

when you're under age.

[candy]

10. Typical USA nanny statism-we're too dumb to make our own decisions.

[SmokingJacket]

12. It makes no sense to me.

When they started that in the late 80's, suddenly binge drinking became a huge problem on campuses. I mean, they always had drinking, but that's when it became a competitive sport.

[eallen]

14. How many youngsters do you have driving?

Over here, most people under 21 are driving. Several days a week. Highways. At night, also.

I think it was the mix of youth, alcohol, and cars that motivated the change. The legislators chose to remove the alcohol from the equation. They might have been more wise to raise the driving age.

:hippie:

[_TJ_]

18. I'm not sure of the stats

By 21 I'd imagine 50% or more are driving. At 18 I'd imagine 5%-10%
are driving because insurance costs a FORTUNE for teenagers.

Also, the majority of the population is crammed into a small part
of the country so using public transport is a better option than
in a huge country like America.

TJ

[Inland]

19. It was the auto accidents, and alcohol getting to even younger.

The same characteristics of relative recklessness that led to an alarming number of car deaths in 18-21 led to eighteen year olds buying for sixteen year olds and their deaths.

I assume, without knowing, that the controls on alcohol made some difference.

[DemoTex]

16. Life in suburbia necessitates a car to get anywhere.

During Vietnam the drinking age in many states was lowered to 18 (right after I turned 21). Alcohol-related car crashes and deaths went up (often claiming innocent victims). Suddenly, drunk driving became un-cool and the rest is history.


Poster-boy for GOP Hypocrisy

[Jack_DeLeon]

17. Fucking MADD...

IMO its bullshit.

You are either an adult at 18 or you are not.

The current laws are stupid.

[efhmc]

20. They lowered it once and then raised it again, I think the rate of

highway deaths increase was what was given as a reason for the change. The reason it was lowered was that men who were being killed in war at 18 felt they should be able to buy alcohol.

[tabasco]

26. That's the greatest irony.

Old enough to serve as an infantry team leader but not old enough to buy a beer. BULLSHIT !

[efhmc]

29. That was the argument of men in Viet Nam. And if you think about it, it is

true. But then there was no active war and so within the space of about 15 years, they raised it again.

[kcwayne]

33. Not only that, but you could not vote

I went through high school knowing that I would be drafted and sent to Viet Nam. I could go die and kill for my country, but I could not vote or drink. There was a movement with marches and peace signs et all championing the right of 18 year olds to vote. Drinking was a sidecar of the movement. If I rememeber correctly, the logo for the movement was a hand in the peace sign configuration, colored like a US flag, with something about the 26th amendment or Vote 18. I am old, its getting fuzzy......

After the drinking age was lowered to 18, there were a lot more traffic deaths due to drunken drivers, and it extended to 16 year olds. Since most high school kids knew someone who was 18, it was very easy to get someone to buy alchohol for you.

Of course, when I was 17, I had an ID (a fake draft card) that said I was 21. I could buy alcohol without much problem. I think I was refused twice in 2 years.

[Jersey Devil]

21. It's a good idea

21 year olds buy booze for teens from 18-20. During Viet Nam NJ lowered the drinking age to 18 for a while since kids were getting drafted at 18 and legislators figured if they could fight and die they could sure as hell have a beer. But what happened is that the 18 year olds were buying booze for the 15 year olds, DUIs increased exponentially and alchohol use among young teens did as well. We had 15 year olds drunk in the parks, etc., a real bad scene

[NV Whino]

23. We're retarded

Funny story: I turned 21 in Scotland and so excited that I could go to a bar and get some of their very fine beer. Then I discovered the drinking age in Scotland was 18.

[Extend a Hand]

24. insurance

company statistics on alcohol related accidents would be my guess.

[izzie]

28. I think it goes back to all the do good societies

The root of all evil etc. Early part of 20th Cen?

[illflem]

31. Montana was one of the last states to raise the drinking age

to 21 under threat from the Dept of Transportation to cut off federal highway funding.
Drinking and driving is still legal here though, no open container law.

[smitty]

32. drinking age

The legal drinking age used to be 18 in many states but MADD launched a campaign to raise it and the federal government buckled under the pressure. The National Minimum Drinking Age Act was passed in 1984 (with bi-partisan support), basically the feds told the states that if they wanted federal money for transportation projects they'd have to raise their legal drinking age to 21.

Ironically, during the 70s, many states had LOWERED the legal drinking age to 18, the rationale being that 18 year olds could now vote, marry, enlist, etc.---in other words they were adults.

[Cleita]

34. A lot of it stems from prohibition. Before that I think anyone who

was tall enough to look over the bar could be served. Also, the anti-drunk driving faction have had a lot of influence. I'm not against it because i'ts dangerous to drive under the influence especially with teenagers behind the wheel.

I have visited countries that allow kids in a bar with their parents and if the parents chose to let them sip from a beer, or if they have older kids like teenagers, they will give them a drink if the parents okay it. It's usually a very diluted drink like beer or wine mixed with a soda or water. However, they can't go into a bar on their own without a parent.

[JHB]

35. A few additional factors: Generation & Fed power plays

One thing that's been left out is the way Federal pressure was turned on the states.

Into the late 70's, drunk driving was treated less seriously than it should have been, and naturally more and more people became outraged at the toll in lives that drunken fools took on the roads. By the late-70s/early-80s, activism to put higher penalties on drunk driving was increasing, and it was the sort of thing that could cross the less-sharp political divide of the time (i.e., groups like MADD could attract both people with "conservative" "punish-the-wrongdoer" attitudes and people with "liberal" "fix the root causes" attitudes), and fueled by greiving family members and people in sympathy with them. It also coincided with more general efforts against alcohol abuse, and the proliferation of groups like AA, Alanon, Alateen, etc.

By this point the movement had grown and become political at all levels, so just stricter local enforcement wasn't enough. And groups like MADD were made up of ppeople who voted and the group actively lobbied politicians. For pols, being against needless loss of life from drunk driving was a no-brainer, one of those hot-button issues where only one side is organized and politically active, so there's no (apparent) downside in catering to them.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim one additional factor: demographics. This was the time that the mass of the Baby Boomers were settling down and becoming parents. Scared parents can be a pretty powerful political force, and that just increased the call for Something To Be Done About It.

At the Federal level, congressmembers couldn't really act directly, because alchohol laws were local and state matters. But since they were under pressure to produce something, they latched on to proposals floating around to raise the drinking age (which had come out of the general anti-abuse "wing" of the movement). And who would fight it? Kids who couldn't vote? College-agers who voted in low numbers, weren't organized on this issue, and would be leagal in a few years anyway? Line them up against organized angry parents, and again, it was a no-brainer.

The real poison in this measure was not that the feds raised the drinking age -- they couldn't. What the law they passed (during the administration of Ron "get government off your back" Reagan :puke: ) did was withhold federal highway funds from states that did not raise their drinking age to 21. There was a lot of squabbling on principles, and I think North Dakota held out for nearly a decade or so, but most states quickly knuckled under to get the money. Again, there was no organized resistance, so they were buldozed.

(As for myself, in NY State I was legal at 18 for about 3 months, before the 21-age went into effect. They didn't even add a grandfathering provision).

So to answer your question, no, it's not fundie irrationality, but it IS irrational. The current policy is not the result of reasoned deliberation but of a train-wreck of political factors that eventually flowed down the path of least resistance: indiscriminately stepping on teenagers.

[mcscajun]

36. Stats -- not fundie irrationality.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/FewerYoungDrivers/tech_summary.htm

And as to Europe:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35079-2004Dec29.html

Worldwide Drinking Ages:
http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol-info/LegalDrinkingAge.html

What I found over in The Netherlands that I thought particularly odd: the age for drinking beer is 16, but no wine or liquor until 18. Like there's a difference between one 12-oz beer, one 4-oz glass of wine, and 1 oz. of whiskey; There Isn't.

[slutticus]

37. No beer until 21? Says who?

:evilgrin:

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. So, the consensus is that it's to avoid drink driving

which sounds a real bummer for 18-20 year olds in a city like New York, with decent public transport and less driving - or any of them who are actually responsible enough not to do it (when I was that young, we never drank and drove - it was the stupid 40 year olds who thought they could handle it).

[JHB]

39. It continues to be the stupid (of all ages) who are the problem...

...but that hasn't stopped the MADD neo-prohibitionists from trying to enact new laws that would reduce the permitted blood alcohol level so far that even so much as a glass of wine with dinner would put you over the limit.

The stated purpose is to reduce drinking and driving, and it does actually accomplish that, but at the expense of effectively forbidding families to teach their kids "the ropes" about alcoholic beverages the way most Europeans do. (and almost guaranteeing that the first exposure to alcohol will be surreptitious, unchaperoned binge drinking.)

[ProfessorGAC]

40. Governmental Overreach

The law in each state used to be set by the state. Back in the 70's, when i was 19, the drinking age in IL was 19. When i was 23, they change it back to 21, because the federal gov't threatened to withhold highway funds for any state that didn't. The federal gov't was pandering to the insurance companies at the time. Now, it would be pandering to the temperance movement within the radical right.

It's valid that the line has to be drawn somewhere, but 18 seems appropriate to me.

But, just like the MADD and SADD people who ignore the statistics that lowering BAL's doesn't lower the numbers of deaths (mostly because 99% of all fatal accidents involving alcohol feature a driver who was way above the OLD limit), the lack of substantive analysis makes people feel good that they did the "right thing" by raising the drinking age. Anybody who really wants a beer at 19 is going to figure out how to get one, anyway.
The Professor