Did both Reagan and the Pope truly "defeat communism" as they are saying?

[begin_within]

[LSdemocrat]

1. Gorbechev did by never sending tanks into the streets

[jonnyblitz]

2. I never heard the claim about the pope until yesterday.

:shrug:

[K-W]

3. Of course not.

The communism they are speaking of never existed. The Pope and Reagan both played prominant roles in the history of the soviet bloc, but you cant really say that any one, or two people were responsible for such things. There were a million and one causes. We are talking about the overall shape of geopolitics here.

[Leilani]

14. Tell that to the Poles

& the Solidarity Movement....that Communism never existed.

[lastliberalintexas]

18. Nope, there wasn't anything

about Poland that was actually Communistic. Just more free marketeer propaganda that's made its way into the American vernacular.

[Leilani]

24. My brother's former fiance & her family

came to the US as refugees from Poland.

They sure thought there was Communism in Poland.

[lastliberalintexas]

27. Well, they were wrong

What was commonly referred to as Communism was actually much like the USSR- an oligarchic economy with an authoritarian government. Again, it was merely RW propoganda that the countries of the Eastern bloc were actually Communist countries. Just saying they were doesn't make it so, no more than our administration saying Iraq is a democracy makes it so.

Was Poland a "communist" country as defined in the American vernacular? Sure. But not by the actual definition of Communism found in political science.

[Zynx]

31. True Communism has never existed, nor should it be attempted.

[K-W]

34. Wrong on both counts.

Marxism has never existed, and should not, specifically be attempted.

Communism has certainly existed and even in our society today there are relationships that could be described as communist.

You need to divoce the concept of communism from it's use in the politics of the soviet bloc, just as a capitalist would argue the need to divorce the concept of capitalism from the politics of central america.

[Crunchy Frog]

37. In that case, of course, neither Reagan nor the Pope

can be either credited or blamed for the collapse of a system that never existed. Therefore, the main thesis of this entire thread is rendered entirely moot.

The major source of confusion probably derives from the fact that the countries of the Soviet bloc were all ruled by parties that referred to themselves as "Communist" parties. Moreover, these countries frequently used the word "communism" in reference to themselves and their systems. In light of this, I think the misunderstanding is somewhat understandable.

Perhaps we could clear up the confusion by referring to the "collapse of systems run by Communist parties" rather than the "collapse of Communism" since, at least according to many people here, Communism as such never existed.

[lastliberalintexas]

41. The "breakup of the Soviet Union

and its coalition or bloc" would be a much better way to frame the debate/discussion. Otherwise, we reinforce the idea that Communism is necessarily bad or evil just because it was associated with The Other Side in the cold war. Which leads down the slippery slope to everything left or liberal also being bad or evil.

I know it seems as if I'm splitting semantical hairs, but it is an important distinction. :)

[Crunchy Frog]

42. I'm game for using that terminology,

however, the association largely exists in people's minds precicely because the countries of that bloc strongly associated the word "Communism" with their systems, including calling their ruling parties "Communist parties". That's a bit of history that simply can't be erased.

I don't think Communism is necessarily evil, just that it's not workable in human beings, (although it seems to work well for certain social insects, and even for naked mole rats:) ).

Where the evil comes in is in the attempt to force an unworkable system on human societies. That is the main problem with absolutist utopian ideologies. The attempt to achieve their aim on a large scale can only be carried out through forcible imposition and violence. Since this sort of thing can only be accomplished by a small group with vast amounts of power concentrated in its hands, you eventually end up, once human nature reasserts itself, with an oligarchical society where the powerful look out for their own interests at the expense of the rest of society, and the old ideals are used only for lip service.

This is true of all utopian ideologies, not just Communism. In fact, I see many of these same factors at work within the neocon ideology, which is what scares me so much about them.

I believe that ideologically based systems are bound to fail because they value theory over reality. The violence and evil come from attempts to forcibly impose such systems on human societies.

[K-W]

43. Communism's workability has nothing to do with this.

No one ever tried to Implement communism. That may have been the goal of these parties at one point, but once they were in power they never made any attempt to actuall create a communist utopia.

Thus the commen concept that communism is unworkable as proved by the soviet bloc or that the soviet bloc's demise had something to do with communist ideoloogy is patently absurd. All they proved is that those particular regimes could not survive the domestic and foriegn pressures. Thats it.

The neocons arent wrong because they are ideological, they are wrong becaue they are wrong. You yourself have ideologies as much as anyone else, we all do.

[Crunchy Frog]

46. If implementing communism was the goal of those parties

at one time, then by definition, somebody did indeed try to implement communism. At this point, I think this is degenerating into a debate over semantics.

I do not believe that communism is unworkable because it wasn't successfully implemented in the Soviet bloc. I believe it is unworkable because it doesn't take some basic realities about human nature into account.

I believe that you and I may have different definitions of ideology. I try to base my view of reality on the best available evidence and I update my views as the evidence changes. I view ideologues as people with a set view based on a particular theory, who acknowledge evidence if it backs up their predetermined conclusions, and reject it if it contradicts them. This is what I've observed in communist ideologues as well as in neocon ideologues and fundamentalist Christian ideologues.

Again, at this point we may simply be in a debate over semantics, in which case any further discussion is most likely pointless.

[K-W]

23. I didnt say that communism never existed.

But you are a fool if you think that communist parties became corrupt totalitarian governements because they were communist. As if tyranny was invented by Karl Marx. As if parties of every stripe havent done the exact same thing.

Communism is just an idea. And contrary to the beliefs of thsoe who want to control ieas, not a particularly dangerous idea, or at least no more dangerous than democracy or freedom or a perfect free market economy. All words that have been used alongside horrible actions.

[Leilani]

25. I never stated anything that you are implying

& I'm not a fool because I posted something that did not fit in with your specific thesis.

[K-W]

33. I dont know what on earth you are referring to.

But if you cant see the difference between the Polish Communist Party somebody or something is fooling you.

[Feathered Fish]

4. Who's your avatar?

It's creepy.

[begin_within]

13. Donatella Versace

[Feathered Fish]

19. oh

:puke:

[Birthmark]

5. Demographics undid the USSR.

I knew (or at least strongly believed) as far back as the 1970s that the USSR wouldn't last until the year 2000. The only thing that really surprised me was that the USSRs demise was accomplished with so little bloodshed. But that was due to the decency of the people of the USSR; not Western politicians, secular or religious.

[Kelvin Mace]

6. Actually, communism defeated itself

Hard, totalitarian regimes never last long, especially in modern times. Reagan, if he did anything, helped the Soviets spend themselves into penury, a tactic from which they and we have not recovered. Unless the US changes its fiscal policies soon, look to Russia to see our future.

[TomClash]

7. Soviet style "socialism" defeated itself

through its own internal contradictions.

[meti57b]

8. I thought the FSU was responsible for its own demise, just like we will be

for our own.

[Joey Liberal]

9. Gorby helped a lot

Reagan spent us into oblivion, leading us into what was then a record national debt. And for that, the neo-cons want Reagan's picture on stamps, currency, Mt. Rushmore, every highway, every street corner, and in every office and home in America.

[Crunchy Frog]

39. I give Gorby alot of credit.

I believe that the system was going to collapse eventually, one way or another, but the fact that it went as smoothly and peacefully as it did was largely attributable to Gorby's policies.

Of course, I'm likely to get flamed on here for saying nice things about Gorby, so I'll avoid saying anything more on this subject.

[Bullshot]

10. Reagan gets far too much credit for the fall of the communist bloc.

I spoke with a professor who visited the Soviet Union in the 1970s and showed slides of a country whose infrastructure was in shambles. It was a matter of time before it collapsed. Reagan just happened to be president at the right time.

The real credit for the fall of the communist bloc belongs to people behind the Iron Curtain who brought on the movement from the inside, including Pope John Paul, who's Polish, Lech Walesa, Mikhail Gorbachev and others.

[Demeter]

11. When Poland Asked for Help

the US said NO, and that was a frequent pattern. Even Reagan said NO. THe Poles did it themselves, and Karol got the benefit of it. Reagan always took credit for everything, especially when he had nothing to do with it.

[Dees]

12. C'mon..give Reagan some credit

He helped the sales of jelly beans, hair dye and the use of astologers. President Coors, I mean Reagan, deserves zero credit. Gorby was the man.

[Crunchy Frog]

15. Communism collapsed for very complex

reasons involving a multitude of factors not the least of those being the complex dynamics of the societies involved.

I would say that the emergence of a Polish Pope was one event that helped to catalyze events in Polish society which in turn impacted neigboring societies. Thus, I would say that the Pope was one factor among many.

I give Reagan very little credit at all, none for his bellicose rhetoric, arms buildup, and "star wars". I do give him some credit for recognizing that Gorbechev represented something truly different, and for toning down the rhetoric and working with him. He got alot of flack from the RW from that at the time.

I do not believe that the system in the Soviet bloc was sustainable in the long term, and that it would have collapsed eventually, one way or another.

Americans in general have a great deal of difficulty with comprehending complexity, and like to reduce complex events to overly simplistic explanations.

[scarletlib]

22. you are correct

economically the system was failing. they got overextended in a war in afghanistan ..... it was both external and internal factors but the weight should go to the internal factors.

[Jade Fox]

29. As usual, reality is a little more complex than the Fox News version....

Thanks for your post, CF.

[Tactical Progressive]

16. No, two generations of Americans

sacrificing better lives won the Cold War by funding the most expensive military machine in the history of the world for a half a century. Do not under any circumstances take credit away from the people who willingly gave up alot of societal and personal prosperity to fight that battle.

If you want to credit individuals you would probably best be copying names off of memorial stone. If you insist on giving politicians credit for it, it would probably be close to chronologically proportional, starting with Roosevelt then Truman then Eisenhower then JFK etc. Reagan came in at the end and except for one notable lapse in judgement, did his job well during that end-game.

I'm tempted to say JFK lead well at the peak of tension, but Nixon did well in the chess game with China at a bad time, etc.

All of our Presidents represented the American people's interests well throughout the Cold War. It's one area where partisanship truly did end at the water's edge.

[SoKalKyle]

17. Reagan and The Wall

One of the most annoying things attributed to Reagan is that, somehow, by just saying the words "Mr Gorbachev, yadda yadda yadda" that the wall magically came down.

In fact, he had nothing to do with it. Just watch The History Channel's version of events that led to the end of the Berlin Wall and you will see nary a mention of Ron. It was all internal politicking and some fortuitous mistakes....sheesh.

[indepat]

20. The Gipper brought the Commies to their knees single-handed: all

right-thinking and right-headed Americans know that, just ask any Repug.

[EVDebs]

21. US policy of containment from Geo Kennan on did. Dems/Reps

USSR was 'rope-a-doped' into excessive defense spending and went on 'offense' by supporting every NLF around the world that it could. But communist ideology, from Lenin on, always said that the reason the Paris Commune failed was because not enough blood was spilled. How dumb can you get ?

BTW, Jimmy Carter/Z-big had a big hand in the USSR's downfall; Reagan just toyed with 'star wars' and scared the bejezzus out of them to 'keep up' with OUR nutty defense (offense) spending.

[Yupster]

28. It sure didn't look like it at the time

When Jimmy Carter was president, it sure looked like the Soviets were on the march throughout the whole world. In just those four years, Soviet sponsored groups defeated our proxies in Mozambique, Ethiopia, Angola, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Grenada, and looked like they were going to take over El Salvador next.

From what I remember, it sure looked like they were winning and the US was losing.

Now, it sounds like everyone saw the Soviet Union was collapsing right from the start. Well, it sure didn't seem like that to me at the time.

[MrPrax]

36. Thank You...

At least someone else remembered the 80s...

My favorite line in the early 90s was that if the 'fall was predictable' how come you can't find any reference to it in the millions of books written by experts in that period. Surprisingly even among Trotskite academics who ate, breathed and shit Soviet analysis and criticism never saw that one coming.

How come if Raygun's spending spree was a policy you can't find any reference to it by any of the tomes written by Kremlinologists--in fact what you do find are insane perfect Cold War solutions that ran the gambit of hiding nukes in underground choo-choo trains in Utah, to Star Wars to Haig's Green Belt strategies to undermining the 'no-nukes' movement with redeployed COINTEL programs...

But I do know that after the Wall came down, shiteating NeoCons who barked steadily during the 80s allover the western world, had to come up with an explanantion as to why they for the most part they quadrupled debt, presented usurious interest rates as a economic solution, started the ball rolling for massive social welfare slashing, urban catastrophies like homelessness, a series of recession, union busting, skyrocketing tuition and joblessness?

Oh yeah...it wasn't a absolute failure of supply side economics--no it was done in the name of defeating communism...

(Oh yeah and the Bulgarians tried to assassinate the Pope as well)

[leesa]

26. Of course not. Reagan had absolutely NOTHING to do with USSR's

failure. They imploded under the economic weight of their arms and space race. Same thing that will happen to the US.

[tjwash]

30. Wheat blight.

The US spy planes in the late seventies noticed hundreds of thousands of acres of dead wheat in the Soviet farms. There was, and still is no reason why a mass wheat destroying virus went through the USSR, but it could have just as easily happened here. The point, is that it didn't, and the USSR turned to the US to sell them grain to feed their people.

The Soviets had a real bad habit of never sharing information among themselves. Thus when things like wheat blight happened on a single farm, or mistakes were made (which would lead to devastating accidents like Chernobyl), it got quickly covered up, never researched to find a root cause, and they never learned from their mistakes.

You do the math. Reagan had nothing to do with it. It was a lot of situations like this that caused the Soviet style government to collapse.

[Zynx]

32. John Paul II and Lech Walesa brought Communism to an end in Poland.

Sure it is more complicated than that because Communism is fundamentally unsustainable(that is the truth, not right wing rhetoric), but they together played an enormous role.

[theboss]

35. I think the Pope played a much larger role than Reagan frankly

All Reagan did was escalate defense spending and up the rhetoric. That probably forced the USSR into bankruptcy faster than in would have happened, but the defense increases actually started under Carter.

What the Pope did was actually offer an alternative, particularly in Poland and Central Europe. And it was not an economic alternative. He attacked Communism spiritually and philosophically and I believe that lit the fire of people wanting to live in a different system.

It's almost impossible to categorize the impact that he had on the Polish people alone.

[datasuspect]

38. didn't one of them do that after they cured cancer?

[Democrats_win]

40. The American taxpayer and those Americans who died in the Cold War

It makes me sick to think that these two little men are taking credit for the blood, sweat and taxes of millions of Americans.

Raise the flag in their honor!

[Piperay]

44. The Pope did more to end

Communism than Raygun did.

[leftofthedial]

45. no

[porphyrian]

47. What's Cuba?

Didn't the Pope just go there?

[lonestarnot]

48. Seems every time someone well known dies, they ended communism.

Communism ended itself, hopefully so will this regime.

[Jesus Saves]

49. Rock and Roll defeated communism

I know that's overly simplistic. But really, Western pop culture, music, movies, etc., captured the hearts and minds of the Soviet and Eastern European youth.

It was the freedom and the individuality of our culture and art that caught their attention.