Anyone else remember SADDAM OFFERED TO SURRENDER BEFORE THE INVASION?

[grytpype]

It's true... Saddam offered almost total capitulation, but Bush and Cheney personally rejected the offers. He offered to allow thousands of troops into Iraq to search for weapons and to hold monitored elections in two years, and BUSH AND CHENEY TURNED HIM DOWN AND COMMENCED THE WAR.

I think it would be a very good thing at this precise moment to raise some public awareness of that fact... really get it out there, to the point Bush and Cheney are forced to explain their actions!!!! Can you imagine that? Trying to explain to the wounded and families of the dead why they wouldn't accept surrender! I wouldn't want to be them, that's for sure...

here's the proof, DUers, help spread the (old) news!!!!!

Saddam's desperate offers to stave off war
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1079769,00.html

Washington dismissed Iraq's peace feelers, including elections and weapons pledge, put forward via diplomatic channels and US hawk Perle

Julian Borger in Washington, Brian Whitaker and Vikram Dodd
Friday November 7, 2003
The Guardian

In the few weeks before its fall, Iraq's Ba'athist regime made a series of increasingly desperate peace offers to Washington, promising to hold elections and even to allow US troops to search for banned weapons. But the advances were all rejected by the Bush administration, according to intermediaries involved in the talks.

...

Iraqi intelligence was also offering privately to allow several thousand US troops into the country to take part in the search for banned weapons.

Baghdad even proposed staging internationally-monitored elections within two years.

"All these offers had at bottom the same thing - that Saddam would stay in power, and that was unacceptable to the administration," Mr Cannistraro said. "There were serious attempts to cut a deal but they were all turned down by the president and vice president."

On edit: The point is by accepting Iraq's offer Bush could have achieved everything remotely positive the war has achieved thus far -- confirmation of no WMD and elections in two years. Instead he chose war, so we paid a horrible price for those two dubious benefits. Bush should be forced to explain why he made that decision.

[TheFarseer]

1. I don't remember that

You would have thought that would have been widely reported, but then again alot of things I thought would be widely reported have been barely mentioned.

[Yupster]

53. I remember Bush demanding Saddam

leave the country within 48 hours to stave off invasion.

I thought he would do it at the last minute and so posted here on DU many times. I thought he would take the palace in Saudi Arabia next to Idi Amin, then wait for the US to screw things up and then plot his triumphant comeback.

I still think that was Saddam's smartest move.

It sure seems better than today where he has to pray the US stays in power because as soon as we leave, he's going to be dragged out of his prison cell and hanged in the public square if he's lucky.

[mike_c]

2. remember too that Saddam was the ONLY one...

...who told the truth about Iraq's weapons programs and international intent.

It's also worth noting that U.S. security forces have killed many more civilian Iraqis during the last two years than Baathist security forces killed during any equivalent amount of time, we've recycled the torture chambers and rape rooms, the collective punishment, and the destruction of entire cities that oppose our rule. Saddam was rebuilding Iraq. The U.S. has simply destroyed it.

[punpirate]

3. Nothing in this...

... suggests that Hussein offered to surrender.

Careful choice of words is important. At one point, late in the process, Hussein offered to go into exile of his choice, but that was rejected, as well.

But, surrender has a specific meaning, and the source you offer does not suggest that event.

Cheers.

[grytpype]

10. Whether you call it a surrender or not...

The point is by accepting Iraq's offer Bush could have achieved everything remotely positive the war has achieved thus far -- confirmation of no WMD and elections in two years.

But Bush chose war, and we got those things at a horrible price. He should be put in a position where he is forced to explain that decision.

They thought there would be "no casualties," as Bush said to Pat Robertson. A cakewalk. So why not demand complete surrender? That's what they were thinking, and it really was the crowning fuckup on the huge mountain of fuckups that is Bush's Iraq policy.

[punpirate]

18. Oh, I don't dispute that Bush...

... wanted war, and ignored all the diplomatic entreaties from Iraq beforehand, whether back-channel or otherwise.

I'd just like the matter to be more carefully defined--just for the sake of accuracy. The right wants to seize on every little detail as evidence that the left is trying to bend any story to its own ends (for the purposes of deflecting criticism of Bush wherever it is encountered).

Well before the invasion began, in post after post, I said something to the effect that Bush had conveniently put Hussein in a logical box--there was no way he was going to be able to disprove the Bushies' claims, and that told me the game was fixed.

I'm not disputing the facts as they were before the invasion--just trying to be precise in their analysis.

Cheers.

[grytpype]

20. OK fair enough, let's refer to dictionary.com

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=surrender

sur·ren·der Audio pronunciation of "surrender" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-rndr)
v. sur·ren·dered, sur·ren·der·ing, sur·ren·ders
v. tr.

1. To relinquish possession or control of to another because of demand or compulsion.
2. To give up in favor of another.
3. To give up or give back (something that has been granted): surrender a contractual right.
4. To give up or abandon: surrender all hope.
5. To give over or resign (oneself) to something, as to an emotion: surrendered himself to grief.
6. Law. To restore (an estate, for example), especially to give up (a lease) before expiration of the term.


v. intr.

To give oneself up, as to an enemy.

I think what was offered was within meaning of the word "surrender." He was letting US troops have the run of his country immediately and offered to stand for an election, which probably would result in a change of government.

You are thinking of "unconditional surrender."

Synonyms: surrender, submission, capitulation
These nouns denote the act of giving up one's person, one's possessions, or people under one's command to the authority, power, or control of another. Surrender is the most general: “No terms except unconditional and immediate surrender can be accepted” (Ulysses S. Grant). Submission stresses the subordination of the side that has yielded: “Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance, or the most abject submission” (George Washington). Capitulation implies surrender under specific prearranged conditions: Lack of food and ammunition forced the capitulation of the rebels. See also synonyms at relinquish

Maybe "capitulation" is a better term.

But the point is, Bush must be forced to justify his decision to turn down the offers and go to war. It would kill his support, I think.

[punpirate]

22. Did Hussein offer to surrender himself...

... to his putative enemy? No, don't think so. Almost everything but that.... :)

[Must_B_Free]

4. I remember

this detail was hidden until after the invasion.

I believe he offer an 11th hour concession.

besides that it seemed like he made efforts to destroy whatever he was instructed to destroy.

[leesa]

5. I know he offered to leave the country. It's just like when the Taliban

offered to hand over OBL to Bush at least twice, if Bush would provide proof that OBL did 9-11. Bush had no proof (still doesn't) and turned it down.

They don't want these people. They don't want Saddam or OBL...they want the right of way for oil pipelines or the oil and gas itself.

Cripes. Isn't it OBVIOUS by now?

[Frederik]

48. I'd say.

[knowbody0]

6. i remember him challenging

bush to a televised debate--oh, how kool that would have been. i believe saddam has some stuff on these guys.

[agincourt]

7. Total media black-out on this to back Bush.

I remember that they would allow a 50 to 20 thousand blue helmet team into Iraq to avoid war, to look for WMD. People where I work were saying, "They can't take that deal, everybody's been deployed so we must have war". This to me was the victory that the US threw away, because it wouldn't have came about without the mass mobilization. Bunnypants had to have his war though, and here we are, thousands of casualties and hundreds of billions gone that could have went to deal with the peak oil crisis. We don't need a fucking war to make country music videos and magnetic bumper stickers. Dammit.

[Karenina]

45. Found this today

cleaning out my moldy bits and bytes basement from 2002

Author unknown...


( Note: Last month, Iraq delivered to the United Nations a 12,000-page report denying it had weapons of mass destruction.

Knowing President Bush does not have the attention span to read 12,000 pages, the Iraqis also provided an executive summary written in the style of the president's favorite author, Dr. Seuss.

I obtained a copy of this document from an anonymous source deep inside Vice President Dick Cheney's secret hideout. The complete text follows. )


"I am Saddam.
Saddam I am.

I am the ruler of Iraq,
The country that you would attack.

You are Bush.
Bush you are.
The fame of you has spread afar.

You do not like me, Bush, I know.
You would not like me in a show.
You would not like me in the snow.
You simply wish that I would go.

You say I used to slaughter Kurds.
You say that I use naughty words.

You say I have an evil stash
Of weapons of destruction (mass),
Of bombs and missiles, germs and gas.

You say I tried to kill your Pop.
Oh, how I wish that you would stop!

I promise you I have no stash
Of weapons of destruction (mass).

I do not have them near or far.
I did not hide them in my car.
I did not hide them in a bar.

I did not hide them in a hole.
I did not hide them up a pole.

I did not hide them in a grave.
I did not hide them in a cave.

I did not hide them in a dish.
I did not hide them in a knish.

I did not hide them in my coat.
I did not hide them in a goat.

I did not hide them in a trunk.
I did not hide them in my bunk.

I did not hide them anywhere.
In short, they simply are not there.

The inspectors came and looked,
And looked, and looked, and looked, and looked.

They looked high and they looked low,
Every place that they could go.

They looked in every hole and crack,
Each drawer and closet, bag and sack.

They found nothing in a trunk-or
Even in my private bunker.

They did not find a single stash
Of weapons of destruction (mass) ...
And STILL you won't get off my a**!

I've done all that I can do.
The rest, dear Bush, is up to you.

Please don't be angry, don't be sore.
We don't need to have a war.

Let's go back to the good old days
When your dad and Reagan sang my praise.

I was your faithful ally then.
Why can't we be friends again?

I say, let's let this whole thing drop.
(My best regards to your dear Pop.)"

[Yupster]

54. It was true

once the army is deployed like that, it can't just sit there. It must move or be withdrawn. Plus, in Iraq, there was a small window of season to allow a campaign like the US planned, and it was closing.

Once the deployment was built up, the time for negotiations was over. Either Saddam would leave the country or there would bve war. The US was not going to redeploy its forces all over the world while negotiations restarted, just so they'd have to send them all back at the next available invasion window.

I really thought Saddam would realize the writing was on the wall and would go into exile. I still have trouble believing he didn't.

On edit, it was also not just Saddam that was to leave the country. I believe the US gave a list of people that would have to go too. I remember his sons were mentioned by Bush on TV. Don't know if others were listed publicly or not.

[Hissyspit]

8. I remember... I believe it was while the Canary Island negotiations

were going on - Bush and Major pretending to be trying to find a way to avoid war, that's the angle the U.S. press sold, when all they were doing was finalizing invasion plans. More Bullshit.

(It was the Canary Islands, right?)

[grytpype]

9. I think it was the Azores...

... close to the Canaries though!

[BeFree]

11. Yep, I remember

We could have waltzed right in and taken over. But no, * had to show the world his new Shock and Awe campaign.

Of course the funds necessary for the growth of certain defense industries would have had to been routed some other way into the pockets of the executives, so the war made that accomplishment far easier.

Yeah, folks need to be reminded. 1 vote for pegging this thread on that special page.

[grytpype]

12. Let's get the whole blogosphere talking about it...

Things to do:

1. Post comments / diaries/ blog entries about the surrender offers,
2. Get the wingnut blogs to DENY there were any offers,
3. Get some fresh news about the offers if possible

[BrklynLiberal]

13. I remember reading that. There was an intermediary...can't remember who.

He was going to be offered "sanctuary" in some country.

[grytpype]

14. More proof: NYT article

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1106-02.htm

Published on Thursday, November 6, 2003 by the New York Times
Iraq Said to Have Tried to Reach Last-Minute Deal to Avert War
by James Risen


WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 — As American soldiers massed on the Iraqi border in March and diplomats argued about war, an influential adviser to the Pentagon received a secret message from a Lebanese-American businessman: Saddam Hussein wanted to make a deal.

Iraqi officials, including the chief of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, had told the businessman that they wanted Washington to know that Iraq no longer had weapons of mass destruction, and they offered to allow American troops and experts to conduct a search. The businessman said in an interview that the Iraqis also offered to hand over a man accused of being involved in the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 who was being held in Baghdad. At one point, he said, the Iraqis pledged to hold elections.

...

much more at link... it is an outrage that Bush chose war, given what Saddam was willing to concede!

[grytpype]

27. George Monbiot's commentary

Dreamers and idiots

Britain and the US did everything to avoid a peaceful solution in Iraq and Afghanistan

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1082250,00.html

[Terran1212]

15. Saddam more capitulations to the US than he was required to...

Of course the United States Military was set on taking Iraq. It didn't matter what the Iraqis did. If Saddam Hussein showed up on the doorstep of the White House and surrendered, they still would've invaded.

[CJCRANE]

35. In fact, Ari Fleischer

said (in a press conference just before the invasion) that even if Saddam stepped down that the troops would still go in and occupy the country. I can't remember the justification he used, but was probably stability or security.

[cidliz2004]

16. I also remember. Sadam agreed to let the U.N. Inspectors back in

Bush said something to the fact that he didn't want to play games anymore.

I know, this really should have been talked about more. Imagine, if we could have marched into Iraq - not in war, but in search of WMD w/o any lost lives and not costing 200B. Imagine that.

[grytpype]

17. Hell, the UN inspectors were already there!!!!

They had to get out of Iraq to avoid being killed by Bush's bombing!

And later, Bush said -- TWICE -- that he had to invade because Saddam would not let inspectors in! He's fucking nuts, he really is!

[cidliz2004]

19. Thats right, now I remember that. The Inspectors were trying to get

Bush to give them more time. Bush IS Fucking nuts, ant the American people are Fucking stupid.

[candle_bright]

21. Nope

Saddam was given 48 hours notice to bail (on 3/17/03), even after the Congress passed the resolution months earlier.

Let's not glorify Saddam.

Even President Clinton signed a resolution in 1998 to liberate Iraq.

War sucks, but this tangent is a loser.

[BuyingThyme]

29. I can't figure out this post.

Who gave Saddam notice to "bail," what is "bail," and who's glorifying him?

And how is talking about the facts "a loser"?

[Yupster]

55. Bush did in a televised address

He told Saddam he had 48 hours to leave Iraq or he would be deposed forcibly.

I thought that was the end once I heard that. At the last minute, Saddam would fly to Saudi Arabia, would get a mansion next to Idi Amin and would start plotting his triumphant return to power.

I bet Saddam wished he would have taken that offer.

It's hard to believe he didn't take Bush seriously. Especially when I recently read some Iraqi general's account that just a few days before the war started, Saddam held a meeting of his generals where they told him point blank that they could offer no effective resistance to an American invasion.

I'm thinking this fiasco of a war is one which required not one but two of the most woeful diplomats in the history of the world to put their collective brains together. How many times in history could there be two such failures come together to cause such a calamity.

[BuyingThyme]

60. Oh yes, I remember now.

That -- the 48-hour notice -- was just the Chimp's way of making it look like the decision to go to war was Saddam Hussein's decision.

[MrNiceGuyDied]

34. come on

Clinton also continued crippling sanctions designed to limit US casualties once the invasion began.

Poppy knew 25000 troops minimum would have been killed if the coalition had tried to take Baghdad during the gulf war so they waited.

Whose authority legitimized the no-fly zones?

It wasn't the UN?

My fear is that the elite Democrats know all this and are just pretending to be outraged.

[Yupster]

56. Taking Baghdad in 1991 wasn't an option

That had to be promised in advance to gain the cooperation of such important coalition partners as Egypt and Syria who provided large numbers of troops for Gulf War I.

Some criticize Bush for stopping before Baghdad, but he had no choice in the matter. That was agreed on well ahead of time and would have caused the breakup of the coalition with armies in the field fighting if it had occurred. A true potential disaster.

[Tinoire]

23. Oh yes. Very, very clearly

but among BOTH Republicans and Democrats, there was a determination to appropriate Iraq's oil and/or get rid of that "tyrant menace impediment to our imperialist domination".

It was widely known and widely ignored. Better to use any means necessary to force an entire people into submission, by any means necessary be it a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs, than to be reasonable and accept the fact that the rest of the world is not here to subsidize our apple-pie lifestyle.

[Terran1212]

24. Not "glorifying" Saddam but not demonizing him...

He did do a lot of good things, I disagree with a lot of his rule and the way he operated, but I cannot deny the things he did that were legitimately good for his country and the Arab world.

I agree both Clinton and Bush had little humanitarian concern in Iraq.

Humanitarian intervention in Kosovo to Anti-humanitarian interference in Iraq...

[candle_bright]

26. Saddam did a lot of good things?

Like what?

Please site credible sources.

Fuck. No one likes war, but it's a cryin' shame to pretend he was a good man by any stretch.

[Tinoire]

37. You know the infrastructure of major roads, hospitals, electricity

water treatment plants, universities, free clinics, etc that it took the US 10 years to destroy before Bush II unleashed our full might against their weakened country? Saddaam built it. All those hospitals, all those free universities, all those sewers... Saddaam committed the unpardonnable crime of using part of the oil profits to build up the country and thumbed his nose at the 'free trade' we were trying to impose on him to prevent Iraq from trading freely. Little of the infrastructure existed before Saddaam.

Iraqi women were the most educated in the Middle East and Iraq's number 1 health problem was obesity in children. Its hospitals were once the envy of the Middle East and wealthy Middle Easterns went there for everything from heart transplants to plastic surgery; Iraqi specialists traveled the world lecturing about their research.

We mustn't demonize him either just because it suits our obscene 14 year war to try to seize control of their oil in a vain attempt to try to secure the dollar.

[Yupster]

57. And Hitler built the auobahn

but I'll still go with

Mene, Mene, Tekel, Parsin

[Frederik]

49. In the 70s

Iraq was the most developed country in the "third" world. That was before Saddam became the absolute ruler in the late 70s and launched the war against Iran, which cost the country dearly. Saddam did do some things right, even throughout the years under terrible UN sanctions he saw to it that people got food rations. His wickedness has been caricatured for propaganda purposes (think plastic shredder) but i certainly agree that he isn't a good man by any stretch.

[walldude]

25. I remember hearing sound bites about this

but nothing in this detail. Nominated...

[Griffy]

28. I can hear it now .. "If I had to choose between the word of a madman..."

.. and the safty of the American people... the sound bites already out. As much as I think bush is a crook, I dont believe Saddam would have surrendered either... bush cheated in our election, power is not relinquished.. Saddam wouldn't leave power... so surrender is not the way I see it.. I see Saddam applying for the new role of Iraqi president, or PM .... after all.. he worked with Rummy before!

after all.. HE HAD NO WEAPONS TO TURN OVER!!

[Disturbed]

31. It is Obvious to anyone that was and is paying attention..

that the Bush Junta lied to the World about Iraq. The agenda was to take over Iraq and it's resources which has been done. Now all that is left is to crush any resistance of that agenda.

[eridani]

30. The invasion was on no matter what

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17923
Garner added, ''Look back on the Philippines around the turn of the 20th century: they were a coaling station for the navy, and that allowed us to keep a great presence in the Pacific. That's what Iraq is for the next few decades: our coaling station that gives us great presence in the Middle East.”

http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759

As for Iraq's alleged "weapons of mass destruction", these were dismissed, in so many words, as a convenient excuse, which it is. "While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification," it says, "the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html

"Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show we mean business."

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/5415227.htm?1c
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/iraq/topstories/031803cciraqbush.709e7010.html

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:MIdjUeeOeKMJ:www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/iraq/topstories/031803cciraqbush.709e7010.html+Fleischer+%22if+saddam+seeks+exile%22&hl=en

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:0XcgLWrA8i8J:www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/5415227.htm+Fleischer+%22if+saddam+seeks+exile%22&hl=en

U.S. troops are headed into Iraq one way or another. White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said that even if Saddam seeks exile U.S. forces will enter Iraq to disarm it - hopefully without opposition.

[BuyingThyme]

32. Surrender is...

allowing strangers to search your palaces, destroying your favorite weapons, permitting multiple spy planes to occupy your airspace, turning over all of the documents relevant to your current and past weapons technology, allowing your scientists to be interviewed by inspectors, and agreeing to allow inspection teams to drive and helicopter around your country to inspect at will.

Iraq surrendered. Then Bush murdered them.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeFree]

36. "Then Bush murdered them"

Hell yeah, the Iraqis put up the white flag. We could have walked right into Iraq and peacefully taken over the whole country.

The Iraqi people would have cheered and thrown flowers at the soldiers had we respected their white flag.

But NO, the first thing * did was launch his Shock and Awe, blowing to smithereens how many peoples lives?

Look at how easy the tanks rolled into Baghdad... there was no great organized opposition, but that white flag of surrender was ignored by * and the pentagon.

Thems the facts.

[Kansas Wyatt]

38. I remember, Bush dismissed it as a continued trick.

Also, if George W. Bush attacked and invaded Iraq because of WMDs (that was the claim at the time), then why didn't they ever send any troops to secure plastic explosives that could be used for nuclear weapons at a sealed U.N. site?

If the reason for the invasion was for WMDs, that would be one of the first places you would secure and guard. Instead, the plastic explosives that could be used for nuclear weapons were ignored, then they were looted, and are probably being used in insurgent attacks today.

Well, lets hope that some real terrorists do not get their hands on the missing stuff and build their own nuclear weapon to send into this unprotected country. But with BushCo. running things, nobody is safe.

[mmonk]

39. I remember something

similar but the campaign of "shock and awe" was aimed at a world audience. They weren't going to change course.

[patricia92243]

40. I remember this and several other things from that time that proved Bush w

wanted a war and NOTHING that Saddam did was going to stop it.

This info was not widey publicized then. What makes anybody think it would be now?

[grytpype]

41. We can try.

The truth eventually came out about Bush's WMD scare stories, now let the truth come out about this.

[patricia92243]

43. Actually you are 100% correct, and I apologize for saying such a negative

thing. We can, and we must keep trying. Thank you for reminding me. I get discouraged sometimes and shoot off my mouth. :(

[Poiuyt]

42. I seem to remember someone commenting that after we had 150,000 troops

in position that there would be no way that Bush wouldn't go in. After all, we spent all that money moving all the troops over there and we would look silly if we just came home.

[Yupster]

58. That is what I was posting at the time

It took months to get the deployment ready for invasion.

The window to invade was closing and the weather would soon turn bad.

If Bush stopped to negotiate again he would have to bring the troops home, and then the pressure would be off for Saddam to cooperate.

Then Bush would have to start the months long timetable to get the deployment ready again.

Nope, that wasn't going to happen.

Once the deployment orders were given, it was going to be an invasion, unless Saddam left the country which is what I thought was going to happen.

I didn't think he'd be stupid enough to try to fight off a US invasion and forfeit his power and probably his life. I thought exile with a posssible triumphant return was a much better option for him.

[passy]

44. Preemptive wars don't allow for surrender.

It's plain bully tactics,

-"You looked at me funny!"
-"No I didn't"
-"Yes you did and now I'm gonna beat up and steal your money."
-"Please don't hit me, here's my money!"
-"But you see I was all ready to punch you, so I'm just gonna have to."
_"Please don't, here have my watch too and the keys to my car."
_"Thanks, but I have to show you and the others here that I mean business"
_"I'll do anything, please don't hurt me."
_"All this grovelling is annoying me, so now not only will I hurt you bad, but I'm also gonna kill your family and torch your house"

From a little play called "How the middle East was won"

[Gingergal]

46. Anyone remember that Taliban offered to turn over Osama?

Before the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, the Taliban offered to give the U.S. Osama Bin Ladin if we would not invade. Little george said no. Guess he should have taken them up on the offer. Where is Osama after all this time?

[zippy890]

47. No, I don't remember that

When was that?

[Frederik]

50. So they did

Only, and there's the rub, they demanded to see some evidence that Osama was involved in the WTC/Pentagon event.

[Yupster]

59. And they said they'd be the judge

of whether the evidence was convincing or not.

That wasn't much of an offer.

[Frederik]

61. Still a reasonable demand

[BuyingThyme]

51. kcik

[wabeewoman]

52. I remember

and bush or his flunky Ari said it didn't matter, we were invading. They said it didn't matter if Saddam left the country, we were still invading. I was opposed from the beginning but this really made me think they had planned it and it didn't matter the reason, they were going in. It was such a helpless feeling because the rest of the country didn't seem to get that we were going to kill all those people (and our soldiers) for something that didn't need to happen.

[G_j]

62. kick