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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:12 AM
Original message
If peak oil is reality, we need to change our focus.
It won't be possible to sustain our population much longer, or the world.

How would you decide who gets to live?

Or would you find ways to make sure EVERYBODY dies?

Sorry for being morbid... unless there is unequivocal proof that peak oil is a hoax and being perpetrated by a bunch of nasty hoaxers...
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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'd rather change the focus to:
How do we make Peak Oil irrelevant?
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. who needs oil?
what a baseless notion. My understanding is food, shelter, water and music are the necessities. Peak Oil is the biggest fraud of a big deal Ive ever seen. Nothing new, just a fancied catch phrase for the obviously inevitable.
Even with an eternal supply of oil, we still need to stop poisoning the planet, pocketbook and population with that shit.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. All your food comes form oil, ya big dummy!
The Oil We Eat
Following the food chain back to Iraq
Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004. Originally from Harper's Magazine, February 2004. By Richard Manning.
Sources

The secret of great wealth with no obvious source is some forgotten crime, forgotten because it was done neatly.—Balzac

The journalist’s rule says: follow the money. This rule, however, is not really axiomatic but derivative, in that money, as even our vice president will tell you, is really a way of tracking energy. We’ll follow the energy.

We learn as children that there is no free lunch, that you don’t get something from nothing, that what goes up must come down, and so on. The scientific version of these verities is only slightly more complex. As James Prescott Joule discovered in the nineteenth century, there is only so much energy. You can change it from motion to heat, from heat to light, but there will never be more of it and there will never be less of it. The conservation of energy is not an option, it is a fact. This is the first law of thermodynamics.

Special as we humans are, we get no exemptions from the rules. All animals eat plants or eat animals that eat plants. This is the food chain, and pulling it is the unique ability of plants to turn sunlight into stored energy in the form of carbohydrates, the basic fuel of all animals. Solar-powered photosynthesis is the only way to make this fuel. There is no alternative to plant energy, just as there is no alternative to oxygen. The results of taking away our plant energy may not be as sudden as cutting off oxygen, but they are as sure.

more: http://www.harpers.org/TheOilWeEat.html
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. I love you, ya big dummy
I do understand the basics of a petroleum based economy, and being in the heart of some very serious agribusiness I know what runs them, besides pirated labor.
There are the other options, organic gardening, community gardens, homegrown goods, IPM, a number of optional paradigms. I dont disregard the economic effects of high priced gas, and never take glee in the inevitable effects on the poor. But we dont need oil, really. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying, if only through ignorance and/or preconditioning.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Well, what does anyone really "need"?
Cars? PCs? Regular & affordable plane flights to the Caribbean/Europe/Asia?

The fact is, without "oil" (i.e. cheap energy) life will look like it did 150 years ago. Production per acre will PLUMMET hence there will be much starvation. The carrying capacity of the planet is nowhere near 6 billion in the post-oil world.

Also, I am not looking forward to owning horses for personal transportation.

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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. say what?
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 07:36 PM by tinanator
Are you by any chance NOT involved in agribusiness?
production per acre has been in precipitous decline due to insane factory practices, and given a chance to toil soil any halfwit could produce better than what we are outputting through the miracles of petroleum, pesticide and contracted labor technology.
I take it you dont believe there are viable solar energy and electric transit options to be taken? History and botany should be helpful in researching your consideration here.
I cant help wondering what your business background is.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. OK, I'll bite. Do you have a web reference for what avg production per
acre was pre-diesel/fertilizer/pesticide vs now?

I bet the yield is easily 3-to-1 in favor of the "petrochemical" style of agriculture.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. no, just a number of years in college studying environmental issues
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 09:45 AM by tinanator
from some very good professors including Integrated Pest Management, multi-cropping, and of course living all my life in the middle of the bread basket and monoculture chemical using water wasting illness inducing air and water befouling agribusiness. Sorry, I just have to rely on my education rather than the internets for this one.
Over and above all the other relevant facts Im sure you wont be taking my word for, you should pay attention to the ramifications of Monsanto/Monsatan's horrific attempts, quite successful through NAFTA and other bipartisan corruptions, to gain absolute ownership of our food supplies with genetic markers and even worse genetically modified products with ZERO controls keeping the known bad stuff out of our food supply. A lot more to this can of worms than a diesel pump.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. without oil,or an alternative, big populations are not possible
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 08:09 PM by natrat
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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. I have to say this...
But the peak oil thing is turning into a 'wet dream' of the apocalyptic crowd.

There is more oil in tar sands in Alberta, Canada and Venezuela than there is the Middle East all together. Period.

Sure, it's expensive to pull, but it's there... Cheap easy oil is getting hard to come by - but guess what? So is cheap, easy timber, cheap easy water, cheap easy food....

Point is - I pay US$5.50 a gallon for gas in Holland and you know what? I ride my bike more than I need too... rain or not. Better get used to it America.

I am tired of the big hoohaw concerning peak oil... the bottom line is CHEAP OIL is going to be harder to come by. Canada and Venezuela already pump more oil into the US than anyone. And they have more than anyone.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. About your tar sands....
Even if economically feasible, it's not clear that it would be desirable to free all that sequestered carbon into the atmosphere. We already have quite the "greenhouse problem".....
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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Nuclear power
Nuclear power is what they want to use to extract.

C'est la Vie. Not as dirty as the dirty tales you have been told.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. I'm not talking about the extraction.
Presumably what is extracted is not some magic pixie dust, but a fossil fuel which will be burned, producing plenty of CO2.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. peak oil = CHEAP OIL is going to be harder to come by
The whole point of peak oil is that at some point production will no longer be able to keep up with demand, causing price to go up, and causing shortages. Looks like it's going to be sooner rather then later. That's what the big hoohaw is about.

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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. And I have to say...
Edited on Sat Apr-09-05 12:29 PM by davekriss
...that it is not that difficult a concept but it surely needs to be better understood: Energy Returned on Energy Invested (EROEI).

You refer to tar sands. You admit it will be "more expensive". What does that mean, "more expensive"? Earlier, someone mentioned that even Cheney understands that money is a measure of energy.

The important thing to understand about tar sands is the net return on energy invested to get it out of the ground. Right now, there is no significant "net" return (if you include in the costs cleanup of the ecological damage). Thus "tar sands" and (you did not mention) "oil shale" are simply not going to supply the world's energy needs. I suppose we can proceed on faith that the technology will be invented to overcome this hard fact -- just as we hope to see fusion reactors someday -- but acknowledge that we are gambling all on this faith.

Back in the early days of the Oil Interval, around 1940-1950 and before, EROEI was above the 100:1 level. EROEI for extraction of current "cheap" oil has fallen to 8:1, and for new discoveries runs typically 4:1 or less. This becomes the meaning of "peak oil": As soon as it becomes 1:1 or less then even oil ceases to become a source of energy. Alternatives will have to be found. And presently none come close to ever being able to replace the cheap energy kick provided by oil.

That "cheap kick" allowed population to bloom from around 1.8 billion at the start of the Industrial Age to its 6+ billion today. Two things can be done: (1) society can begin to reorganize according to principles of sustainability, invest in alternatives in order to soften the impact (soften the downward slope of Hubbert's Peak), and begin to globally cooperate; or (2) the already advantaged can circle the wagons, steel their financial fortresses against the coming calamity, position military garrisons around the world to ensure future access to dwindling resources for their elite pleasure, reinforce Calvinist mythologies that stress the wealthy are wealthy due to God's favor and the poor are deservedly poor due to personal iniquity, establish security/police states to repress the disappointed rascal multitudes left to "eat cake", and thereby brace themselves behind the gated walls of their bubble communities for the chaos to come.

Which course of action do you think our leaders have taken?

Having said that, oil is far from the only source of energy. There is natural gas, coal, yes tar sands and like oddball sources, fission, and of course the renewables. The problem with oil is its use is so pervasive: From transportation to plastics to fertilizers to medicines, the panacea of Black Gold will be very difficult to replace. As the enormity of impact is huge, and thus the enormity of change needed to equitably adjust will take decades, we urgently need to steer the political class toward option one above by applying bottom-up pressure. And we need to take personal initiative to lessen our individual energy/ecological "footprints" (Gandhi says, "You must be the change you want to see in the world"). For the greater part of us, Bush has been an unmitigated disaster, removing option 1 even from discussion, nevermind the field of action.


(For a source on EROEI numbers, try Richard Heinberg's, The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies, pp 152-153. On edit: Fixed some grammar, added Gandhi quote.)
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. Wow, davekriss!
What a wonderfully, well-thought out reply! Great way to start my Monday morning. Thank you.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. Money is no solution to the energy problem
If you could stuff quarters down a bore hole and force oil out then paying more would generate more oil. The problem with oil shale and tar sands is that huge amounts of energy are required to extract the oil. Most of the natural gas extracted in northern Alberta goes into tar sand extraction. Vast quantities of water are consumed also. At some point well before actual depletion the energy-in, energy-out equation breaks down.
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Wright Patman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
4. If Mother Earth
really can't support 6.5 billion humans, she'll find a way to eliminate a few billion of them.

It ought to make the pro-natalists of the world think twice, but it won't. The Old Testament religious philosophy dictates large families with a patriarchal dictatorship deciding all matters.
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Thoth Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. Richard Heinberg talks about this in his latest book...
Powerdown. He believes that the neo-con's strategy for dealing with peak oil is something he calls "Last One Standing", in which the USA attempts to grab, or preempt the grabbing by China, Russia or Europe, of the last remaining significant oil supplies. The Iraq War is clearly step one in this direction, albeit unsuccessful at the moment - Iraq's oil output has not increased as planned because of the unexpected resistance. He goes on to state that this strategy of Last One Standing will likely lead to a World War, or series of wars, that could significantly depopulate the planet.

Matt Savinar of http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net speculates along the same lines, though he adds other factors, such as declining ability to produce food, into the mix of war and other civil strife. His book is worth reading, though it's very depressing or sobering, depending on your outlook.

The alternative is peaceful world cooperation on a crash program to develop alternative energy sources, but more importantly conservation. Colin Campbell of http://www.peakoil.net has developed a protocol that calls for nations to reduce their oil consumption annually matched to the rate of depletion. It's a great idea, though I can't see the Bush gang going for it. It's important to get people to face this impending challenge.
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Mel Brennan Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Richard Heinberg's Closing Address for...
...the 2004 Peak Oil Conference

The Short:

We have only a dwindling amount of time to build lifeboats—that is, the needed alternative infrastructure. It has been clear for at least 30 years what characteristics this should have—organic, small-scale, local, convivial, cooperative, slower paced, human-oriented rather than machine-oriented, agrarian, diverse, democratic, culturally rich, and ecologically sustainable. We have known for a long time that the status quo—a society that is machine-oriented, competitive, inequitable, fast-paced, globalized, monocultural, corporate-dominated—is deadening to the human spirit and ecologically unsustainable

---------------------------

The Long:

First let me take this opportunity to express my great thanks to Pat Murphy, Faith Morgan, and Megan Quinn of Community Service, who have organized this conference so thoughtfully and successfully.

We have already heard a lot of talk this weekend, and I don’t want to tax us further with yet more information. I see in the program that I am supposed to speak on “Hope and Vision: Solutions for Planet Earth.” It seems to me that several other presenters have already given us plenty of hope and vision; I am not sure I have much to add in that regard. But perhaps I could take these few minutes to share with you some philosophical thoughts on the big picture—on our plight and our opportunity from a historical perspective.

We are, it seems to me, seeing the beginning of the end of industrial civilization.

That word civilization is a tricky one. We are trained to think of it as connoting everything refined, cultured, and secure. The alternative is barbarism, is it not?

Well, not necessarily—not, at least, from a historical or anthropological perspective.

For several years in the 1990s I was a member of an academic organization called the International Society for the Comparative Study of Civilizations, which, like most such outfits, holds yearly meetings at which professors entertain one another with their latest iterations of sometimes indecipherably subtle theories. The members of ISCSC, or “ISSY” as it is affectionately called, could never quite settle on a definition of the word civilization, but there was general agreement that civilizations are good and very worthy of comparative study. Thus the paper I read one year, “A Primitivist Critique of Civilization,” didn’t go over particularly well.

But while the word civilization may be hard even for experts to define, its derivation is clear enough; it comes from the Latin civis, meaning “city.” Civilized people are city builders. But this is hardly a complete or even useful definition; there are surely other factors involved, including writing, numeracy, trade, and a system of social classes. According even to these few criteria, there have been about 24 distinct civilizations in human history.

Now, I think we all have a clear sense that our particular civilization is qualitatively different from any other in history—from the Chacoan, for example, or the Mayan, or the Mesopotamian, or the classical Roman or Greek. Ours is the first, and will be the only, fossil-fueled civilization. It is civilization on steroids, civilization on multiple carafes of espresso, civilization on rocket fuel. We supersize it, and want it done yesterday. Consequently we have chewed up and spit out more of the Earth’s other resources more quickly than any group of humans have ever done.

Of course, civilizations produce wonderful cultural artifacts: pyramids, temples, literature, music, and so on. Perhaps because the American oil empire has grown up so quickly and rootlessly, its cultural products—though admittedly impressive in some ways (consider the modern Hollywood blockbuster movie with its multi-million-dollar special effects)—often have an ephemeral quality, a superficiality, and an emotionally manipulative commercial utilitarianism, that makes many of us less than proud.

Our buildings, clothes, utensils, containers, and tools—all aspects of our designed environment—have come to be shaped by fuel-fed machines rather than by human hands. If we can make them faster, or if we can make more of them more cheaply with machines, economics requires that we do so. As a result, we have become starved for beauty—the beauty of nature, and the beauty of careful, skilled, individual hand production rooted in slowly and painstakingly evolved culture that is itself rooted in a particular landscape. Perhaps we suffer unknowingly from an unrecognized mass disease—chronic, pernicious beauty deficiency.

One interesting thing to note about civilizations is that they have a nasty habit of collapsing. Many of them have come to their ends for similar reasons, and often the process of collapse has begun within only years of their reaching their maxima of geographical extent, military power, and accumulated wealth. Clive Ponting, in his marvelous book A Green History of the World, offers a familiar explanation: ancient societies typically drew down their resource base and destroyed their habitat. They cut too many trees, exhausted their topsoil, emptied their wells.

Joseph Tainter, in The Collapse of Complex Societies, provides a more subtle account. He attributes collapse to declining returns on investments in complexity. And he defines collapse itself as a reduction in social complexity. A flattening of the pyramidal class structure, a withdrawal of the imperial overreach, a rupturing of trade relations—all are symptoms of the involuntary simplification of a society.

Parenthetically, I should note that Tainter, who certainly respects indigenous cultures, is not saying that non-civilized societies aren’t complex in terms of their rituals and myths, or in their ecological understandings. He defines complexity in terms of quantifiable social elements like the number of distinctive tools and tool systems, or the number of social classes and occupations present.

Societies become complex in order to solve their problems. We adopted agriculture to make up for the caloric deficit consequent upon our overhunting of megafauna during the late Pleistocene. We irrigated so that we could practice agriculture in seasonally arid places. We built social hierarchies to allocate irrigation allowances from a single river to hundreds or thousands of individual farmers, or to store and distribute grain from seasonally abundant harvests.

At first, such investments in social and technological complexity may yield dizzying returns, and societies that make them often grow quickly and tend to overpower their neighbors. An empire may develop, and may persist for centuries or even millennia.

But the strategy of social complexification imposes hidden costs that gradually build up. The support population eventually tires under the burden.

Once the point of declining returns is reached, almost anything can push a society into decline. Climate change and other environmental disasters sometimes play a role. Typically, civilizations that are near their point of collapse become involved in wars over resources, and they are often plagued by poor leadership that is unable to understand the nature of the challenge or to propose effective responses.

Does any of this sound familiar?

Surely a civilization whose entire basis rests upon the extraction and use—and thus the depletion—of a few nonrenewable resources is the most vulnerable sort of civilization that has ever existed.

Most scientists I know who study these things have come to the conclusion that we are living at the end of the current empire, the first truly global empire in the history of our species. By “end” I don’t mean that the whole thing will come crashing down tomorrow or next year. Historically, collapses have usually occurred over a period of decades or centuries. In our case the signs of diminishing returns, and of overextension, are already unmistakable. And, perverse as the comment may seem, I don’t think collapse, in this instance, would necessarily be such a bad thing.

As Tainter points out, collapse really just means a return to the normal pattern of human life—life, that is, in tribes or villages; small communities, if you will. Collapse is an economizing process in which a society reverts to a level of complexity that is capable of being sustained.

This is all so easy to understand from an academically detached perspective. But of course we are not Martian anthropologists observing the events through a telescope; we are talking about the circumstances of our lives.

So what do you do if you are living at the end of an empire? I suppose one rational response would be to eat, drink, and be merry. Why not? It sure beats worrying oneself to death over events one can’t control, and thus squandering whatever moments of normalcy and chances for happiness may remain before the end comes.

Somehow, I think that you here have other ideas about what to do. I suspect that if you had been passengers on the Titanic, you would not have been drinking yourselves into a stupor at the bar; you’d have been strapping deck chairs together, finding a way to increase the signal strength of the ship’s radio, or invent waterproof buoyant suits that could be remanufactured from hemp ropes using equipment commandeered from the ship’s machine shop.

I probably can’t tell you anything you should be doing that you are not already doing about as well as you can under the circumstances. We all know the drill—grow more of your own food, conserve energy, become active in your local community, learn useful arts and skills, stock up on handtools. In essence: we must plant the seeds for what can and will survive; for a way of life as different from industrialism as the latter is from the medieval period; a way of life whose full flowering we ourselves may never see in our brief lifetimes.

Many of you have been teaching this stuff for decades; you don’t need a “how-to” lecture from me.

However it can be helpful to know that there are others thinking the same thoughts, grappling with the same challenges, and finding different but complementary strategies; and it seems to me that this conference has helped immeasurably in this regard. We know each other now, and we know that we are in this together. We know also that we have passed a few recent signal events and are approaching another very important one. It’s helpful to compare notes.

Somewhere this weekend I heard the inevitable comment that we are preaching to the choir. That’s not the way I look at it. To bend that metaphor, I feel as though in this moment I am addressing a council of preachers.

We have only a dwindling amount of time to build lifeboats—that is, the needed alternative infrastructure. It has been clear for at least 30 years what characteristics this should have—organic, small-scale, local, convivial, cooperative, slower paced, human-oriented rather than machine-oriented, agrarian, diverse, democratic, culturally rich, and ecologically sustainable. We have known for a long time that the status quo—a society that is machine-oriented, competitive, inequitable, fast-paced, globalized, monocultural, corporate-dominated—is deadening to the human spirit and ecologically unsustainable.

Sustainable. Unsustainable. What do these words really mean?

Perhaps peak oil at last provides the word sustainability with teeth. People now speak of “sustainable development,” “sustainable growth,” and “sustainable returns on investment.” That, my friends, is sustainability lite. The word has been diluted and denatured almost beyond recognition.

An understanding of peak oil provides us with a minimum definition of the word: can we do this, whatever it is we’re talking about, without fossil fuels? If we can, then it just might be a sustainable activity or process. There’s no guarantee: there are a lot of human activities that don’t involve fossil fuels and that are not sustainable—like large-scale whaling with sailing ships, or intensive irrigation agriculture in soil that isn’t properly drained.

But if you can’t do it without fossil fuels, by definition, it ain’t sustainable.

And that includes most of what we do in North America these days.

What we here are saying is that a transition to a lower level of social-technological complexity need not be violent, need not be chaotic, and need not entail the loss of the values and cultural achievements of which we are most proud as a society. And the end result could be far more humane, enjoyable, and satisfying than life currently is for citizens of this grandest of empires.

Even though this conference is spectacularly well attended from the standpoint of the expectations of the organizers, we are comparatively few. And the message we are communicating is not being heard by the great majority of our fellow citizens. It is probably optimistic to think that it will be understood by more than one or two or three percent of the population. However, if that seed nucleus of the total citizenry really gets it, we may have a chance. We all know what seeds are capable of.

I’m reminded of the Populist rural movement of the late 19th century, which altered America’s political landscape and very nearly diverted the US away from its imperial, corporatist destiny back toward the agrarian ideal of Jefferson. The Populists spread their word, starting in rural Texas, to nearly every county in the South, East, West, and Midwest. Their method? They trained 40,000 public speakers. Then, at grange halls, county fairs, and Chautauquas, they painstakingly educated their fellow citizens about the banking cartels, the trusts, and the currency system, and about how local communities could take charge of their own economies once again.

The 1898 presidential election proved to be the undoing of the movement: the Populists had decided to bet the farm on electoral politics and ran William Jennings Bryan, who was beaten by the arch-imperialist William McKinley, himself soon to die at the hand of an anarchist assassin.

We’ve just had an election too. And, unless it is contested, it may well mark the unequivocal end of the Republic, and of national electoral democracy in this country.

But just as it is becoming altogether clear that we are living in an empire, we are seeing clear signs that the empire is itself nearing its fate.

My friends, it is a time to be hopeful. It is a good time to cherish one another and embrace the young and fortify them with our experiences and vision, and to trust in their ability to find their own appropriate response to the events ahead.

There will be sustainable human cultures on this planet a century from now. In fact, that’s the only kind of cultures there will be. And I think we can reasonably hope that at least some of those cultures will be able to trace their lineage to the seemingly marginalized hippies, activists, energy geeks, permaculturists, communitarians, organic farmers, eco-city planners, and plain citizens who started educating their neighbors about peak oil early in the century.

We have done some good work already, but we have a lot more to accomplish. Perhaps we now have a better grasp of the context in which our work must continue, and of its crucial importance for the survival of our species.

May we apply ourselves with renewed confidence, commitment, and good humor. We can create beauty and live in beauty. We can live in joy, knowing that our efforts will sprout roots, trunks, branches, leaves, flowers, and fruit. We can dwell in community, as we share each other’s lives and visions, talents and resources, concerns and needs, and learn to support one another and work together.

It is a scary time to be alive, but it is a wonderful time to be alive. It is good to know that there is so much accumulated intelligence and compassion among us. This has been a fabulous conference with extraordinary presenters and presentations, and even more amazing participants. We leave here with gifts of knowledge, encouragement, perspective, and passion. Thank you.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Conservation is here and now
We waste so much. How many times do I go to the grocery and buy food, that I end up throwing away, because I didn't get around to eating it intime. Do I really need to go to the grocery every other day, or can I cut back to once or twice a week?

There are plenty of resources for everyone to live a decent life. We just have to conserve and distribute them more fairly. Do folks like Ken Lay really need 10 big houses?

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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I Fully Agree. Transformation Of Food/Personal Transportation/Consumption
will save a lot of energy. Where the ‘doom and gloom’ comes in for us peaker’s is when considering the political reaction of those who view the current ‘Merican Way O Life’ non-negotiable.

Transport –

For transport, I think people need to accept lower speeds, size and weight to maximize affordability and energy conservation.

Consider the Twike from a conceptual standpoint.



http://www.twike.ca/

25-50 mi. range (longer w/ current generation Li Ion batteries), 50 mph speed, for a stated 300 mpg (gas equivalent) energy consumption. Or as they publish, at 12,000 mi/yr less energy than your refrigerator uses. Add an efficient 4 HP internal combustion energy burning ethanol or biodiesel, the range becomes limitless, and you have one hell of an efficient way to move people from point A to B. (And currently, a quick way to separate you from your money, at $18,000/ea.)

For the goods, more local production, more trains, less big trucks.

Food -

Less beef, less 3000 mi. salads, and a move back to the ¼ section farm here in the Midwest. Putting people back on the land will allow for a return to the husbandry that existed prior to the ‘green’ revolution. Through crop rotation needed to sequester nitrogen Midwest farmers could grow enough soybeans to power their equipment.

Consumption –

Lot less plastic crap from Wal-Mart, smaller houses, etc. Back to a (god-forbid) 50’s level of consumption.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I spent my childhood in the 1950s
It wasn't bad, folks, it really wasn't, at least not from the point of view of creature comforts.

Sure, we didn't have all the electronic junk or tropical fruits year around or 900 channels of televised garbage or megamalls in every suburb or two cars per family or especially (sob!) the Internet, but we survived just fine. Look at the houses that were built in the 1950s: small, but perfectly livable. Look at pictures from the 1950s: dorky fashions, but most people are well-fed and healthy. Really.

The living standard of the average American could drop considerably before we'd hit the abject poverty level. (Upper middle class Americans complain of being financially strapped, but how much of that is from buying an oversized trophy house in the outer suburbs, owning an SUV and a minivan that they drive everywhere, and filling the house with every consumer item they see advertised?)
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
33. "...important to get people to face this impending challenge."
Well, I've been saying that ever since DU was a drop of reason in a sea of insanity.

Good to see yall whippersnappers <g> taking up the cause.

Remember the Shuttle disaster? How they knew it was screwed but they didn't tell anybody or do anything about it? That is our governments MO. We can't trust the government to do a damn thing about peak oil, it's totally up to us... are we up to the challenge?
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Mel Brennan Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. Peak Oil is real, as are the various solutions to the question of...
...how to manifest a post-oil society that will last. In many ways, these priciples are the same whether there's oil or not. One example of a subset of thse principles is the permaculture approach.

Learn more about that here, in a post-oil society context:

http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/lectures/309
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
8. Peak oil is real, it took 60 million years to create all of the fossil...
...fuels and a peculiar set of geological and environmental circumstances that may never again be repeated during the lifetime of this universe and in less than 150 years modern technology has succeeded in depleting more than half of what nature has produced and tucked away in the depths of the earth. The remaining roughly 50% can be totally depleted within 40 years unless we display the will and courage to find a better way. Perhaps we can begin by redefining what these substances actually are.

Instead of calling them fossil fuels to be burned and rapidly used up we can label them in such a way as to show the true long lasting value however that might be stated. i.e irreplaceable fossil resources
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
13. We need to be making changes now
We probably should have been making changes earlier. Although the increased cost of gas has hurt many people, especially in rural areas, it has shown most people that dependence upon oil is a problem. If Bush was a decent person, he'd be announcing plans for programs to give large funds to alternative energy developments. Unfortunately, he and his friends have an economic interest in oil profits and he can't seem to put the country and world's interests above his. We could wait for capitalism to deal with this problem, but this will make it harder to deal with the problem and many, especially the poor, will suffer until enough changes have been made.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Actually 20 Yrs Ago, If This DOE Report Is Proven Correct
If peak is here now, the following report concludes it is already too late to avoid the massive shortages and hardship.

This is an example of how the ‘market’ system is dysfunctional when it comes to infrastructure planning. In this case, the energy and transport infrastructure. Because of the lead times required to transform the energy infrastructure once the ‘market’ signals a problem, massive economic distress is now unavoidable.

Should have re-elected Carter. Hope everyone enjoyed their ‘Morning In America’.


Peaking of World Oil Production: Impacts, Mitigation and Risk Management.
Hirsch, Bezdek, Wendling, February 2005

. . .

Assuming a crisis atmosphere, we hypothesize an aggressive vehicle fuel efficiency scenario, based on the NRC CAFE report and other studies that estimate the fuel efficiency gains possible from incremental technologies available or likely to be available within the next decade. We assume that legislation is enacted on the action date in each scenario. We further assume that vehicle fuel efficiency standards are increased 30 percent three years later -- for cars from 27.5 mpg to 35.75 mpg and for light trucks from 20.7 mpg to 26.9 -- and then increased to 50 percent above the base eight years later -- for cars from 27.5 mpg to 41.25 mpg and for light trucks from 20.7 mpg to 31 mpg; finally, we assume full implementation is assumed 12 years after the legislation is enacted. These assumptions “push the envelope” on the fuel efficiency gains possible from current or impending technologies. On the basis of our assumptions, the U.S. would save 500 thousand barrels per day of liquid fuels 10 ten years after legislation is enacted; 1.5 million barrels per day of liquid fuels at year 15; and 3 million barrels per day of liquid fuels at year 20.

. . .

Because conventional oil production decline will start at the time of peaking, crash program mitigation inherently cannot avert massive shortages unless it is initiated well in advance of peaking.

Specifically,
* Waiting until world conventional oil production peaks before initiating crash program mitigation leaves the world with a significant liquid fuel deficit for two decades or longer.
* Initiating a crash program 10 years before world oil peaking would help considerably but would still result in a worldwide liquid fuels shortfall, starting roughly a decade after the time that oil would have otherwise peaked.
* Initiating crash program mitigation 20 years before peaking offers the possibility of avoiding a world liquid fuels shortfall for the forecast period.

Without timely mitigation, world supply/demand balance will be achieved through massive demand destruction (shortages), accompanied by huge oil price increases, both of which would create a long period of significant economic hardship worldwide.


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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
17. Plenty of oil and gas out there
and OPEC can't control what's going on right now.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. Unequivocal proof that something that hasn't happened yet won't happen.
That's the problem with most paranoia...the failure of the feared event to happen only fuels the fear that it will happen someday.
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Snap Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. What focus?
There's a few really basic issues; energy, food supply, water supply.
These scoundrels have a firm grip on all of them with oil corps, GMOs, WTF and other ways. The overt politics are probably a sideshow. We are pretty vulnerable to the "releasing of the bunnies", there are so many fronts to fight, and the big stuff just keeps moving in the night.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. Isn't there a Star Trek (TOS) episode on this?
"The Conscience of the King" -
Twenty-two years before stardate 2817.6, the governor of Tarsus IV, Kodos, evoked emergency martial law and ordered half of the planet's population executed. His intent was to address a severe food shortage on Tarsus IV, and it earned him the name "Kodos the Executioner." It was believed that Kodos died on the planet, but there is some belief that he may have escaped and assumed another identity. James Kirk, Lt. Kevin Riley, and Dr. Thomas Leighton are the only surviving witnesses to Kodos' previous evil deeds; others who might have known Kodos have been mysteriously killed in various accidents.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/episode/68686.html

Shit. It's 1966 all over again.
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ramblin_dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
29. Can the U.S. stop using oil by 2050?
I don't know if the work of Amory Lovins has been discussed here on DU. He claims that we can get to a point where oil is left in the ground because no one wants it anymore.

This article discusses this and provides links to a free download of his book "Winning the Oil Endgame"...

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P113797.asp?GT1=6359
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Goathead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
32. You just hit on the 'New World Order' conspiracy
That's been floating around the net. Basically it goes like this: The power elites have this plan to decrease the world's population by four billion in such and such amount of years. How they mean to do this has yet to be disclosed, either by warfare or some incurable trans-mutated virus.:tinfoilhat:
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