Thanks Kerry, Clinton.

[Mr. Flibble]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3482332

What the hell has happened to you, Hilly? What happened since your great health care reform of the very early 1990s? Seems you sold out, big time. Many people go bankrupt BECAUSE of asninine health care costs. And here you are merrily supporting this bill. x(

And to the person who ran for prez in 2004 and mysteriously came out of 6th place to the top spot for no rational reason. You did such a piss poor job of your campaign that I had to wonder how true you were. Well, the fact it took 5 months or so before you started crying "unfair election" only makes you look even worse.

No need for either of you to run for prez. The DLC doesn't need any of our votes; they've even said as much. They are splintering the party, not the voters. It is not my fault if I choose to vote for a candidate who fits my conscience. It is the voter's choice to vote for whom he/she wants. The DLC seems desperate to get people to stop voting Dem. Could it be those who run the DLC are far more repuke-supporters than NADER could ever wet-dream to be?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

2. Boy. You said it all.

My sentiments EXACTLY.

[blm]

15. Oh...then you'd be wrong, too. Kerry voted AGAINST it. Hillary was absent

because it was the day of Clinton's heart surgery.

And Kerry did NOT come out of sixth place to win Iowa. There were no machines in Iowa. It was a caucus.

The MEDIA overplayed Dean's support on the ground in Iowa while downplaying Kerry's candidacy. You might try asking yourselves why the media was reporting bad numbers for the candidates and why they messed YOUR heads into believing that Dean was the frontrunner in Iowa when the actual reports on the ground in Iowa was that Kerry was running strongest there.

The media is NOT a friend of the Democrats and I am surprised that so many of you got sucked in to their lying games and continue to blame Kerry instead of them. Even to the point that you will spread false information about his votes.

[Carolab]

16. I'm not talking about that part. It's this part I agree with.

"And to the person who ran for prez in 2004 and mysteriously came out of 6th place to the top spot for no rational reason. You did such a piss poor job of your campaign that I had to wonder how true you were. Well, the fact it took 5 months or so before you started crying "unfair election" only makes you look even worse.

No need for either of you to run for prez. The DLC doesn't need any of our votes; they've even said as much. They are splintering the party, not the voters. It is not my fault if I choose to vote for a candidate who fits my conscience. It is the voter's choice to vote for whom he/she wants. The DLC seems desperate to get people to stop voting Dem. Could it be those who run the DLC are far more repuke-supporters than NADER could ever wet-dream to be?"

And, FYI, Dean's campaign was sabotaged by a little 527 org backed by Democrats, including campaign pals of Kerry's and Gephardt's. Don't tell me it ain't so. It was there when it happened and there is an article about it at the Center for Public Integrity. David Jones, who ran the 527 attack on Dean, was on C-Span a few months ago not just ADMITTING it but GLOATING about it.

[blm]

17. Kerry denounced that ad and that ad didn't sink Dean's campaign anyway.

The MEDIA was over-reporting his support on the ground and too many got sucked into their game. I don't care where you were. The reports that Kerry's ground support was greater than the media was reporting were heard back in November 2003, but, the media strung the country along by sticking with their sensationalized reports on Dean's campaign.

Don't question THEIR motives. Go ahead...Trust the fascist media.

[Carolab]

20. I trust Charles Lewis of the Center for Public Integrity.

And I watched the C-Span coverage of David Jones. He said that the whole point of their 527's campaign was "to take Dean down", that he was running too strong. Go look up Lewis' article and the C-Span show for yourself.

In fact, here's the link to Lewis' article: http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=194&sid=200

And here's the link to the David Jones speech on C-Span:

http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=David+Jones

[blm]

18. Dupe

.

[wisteria]

21. Sorry to disagree ,but

John Kerry had nothing to do with Dean's loss. His support dwindled once main stream democrats started paying attention and bought into the extreme liberal label the MSM had pinned on him. IMO Dean would never have beaten Bush. Dean, came off as one dimensional. Sorry again, but Kerry was the most well rounded, experienced and well received candidate. He came very close to winning. Dean did himself in. he didn't need any help.

[Carolab]

22. I've never seen anyone more one-dimensional than John Kerry.

And many, many people said the same.

He was lifeless.

[wisteria]

25. No, John Kerry was actually very presidential in character and style.

I saw him speak four times at different rallies and I never found him to be lifeless or one dimensional. He stood for many, many principled ideas and presented them eloquently and with honesty. Of course, he didn't jump around and shout out his messages. To each his own. I happen to know many,many,many people who disagree with your assessment of him as one-dimensional. If I remember correctly, Dean ran on one issue- his opposition to the war. I would think that would make him actually, one dimensional.

[Carolab]

26. Actually, Dean's NUMBER ONE ISSUE was health care for all of us.

Iraq was second.

And have you ever heard Dean speak in person?

You can hear a pin drop. The man is electrifying and draws HUGE crowds, like the one that I will be in April 20th at the Minneapolis Convention Center when he appears on behalf of the ACLU to talk about protecting our civil liberties.

[politicasista]

28. Do you have a problem with health care for kids first?

You need to get over the primaries.

[Carolab]

29. No, I don't.

But the point was that this was Dean's #1 priority when he began his campaign. Objecting to the Iraq war was the second one and he was among the few out there objecting to it. Kerry wasn't one of them, as I recall.

And, politicasista, I won't "get over the primaries". You sound just like Kerry, "stop crying in your teacup, get over it".

[FreedomAngel82]

43. Oh good grief

Stop crying about the primaries. It's fucking over. By the time the media was on the Dean machine he was already in third place. If you watch the Iowa cacus event on CSPAN (I watched it last night again) when they announced Kerry and Dean they had the same ammount of screams. If anything Dean had a little bit more. They were both equally popular and different canidates. You can't keep going over the past. You can learn from it and that's it. So what. The fact is John Kerry was the president elect and John Edwards was his VP. End of story. People voted and decided.

[Carolab]

49. It's not over.

Dean is DNC chair and he's doing a hell of a job so far.

McAuliffe was a jerk.

[wisteria]

31. Yes I did.

I just didn't think he was "presidential". He did have my support and still does as DNC chairman.

[Carolab]

48. Oh, and I suppose you thought he wasn't "electible" either.

Seems to me that you are pretty suggestible.

[wisteria]

60. I would never go that far as to "suggest" someone wasn't at all electable.

I know he would not have had my vote in the primaries. I supported John Kerry from the beginning of his announcement to run. I admire you sticking by your candidate. I was going to vote for Kerry no matter what others may have said or done. I just don't think you are being fair,when you turn your anger and disappointment over Dean's losing the primaries, in the direction of John Kerry blaming him for the outcome.

[sandnsea]

35. You've Got the Power You've Got the Power You've Got the Power

Mesmerizing. :eyes:

[Carolab]

46. Clearly you never heard him speak.

The "You've Got The Power" slogan is such a small part of what Dean said. Go back and watch some of his speeches. Better yet, attend some of them now.

[sandnsea]

53. Yeah, I did

In Portland, with John Kerry. When Kerry started speaking, people forgot Howard Dean was even there. 5,000 in April for Dean/Kerry; 60,000 in August for just Kerry. Hmmmm.

I was really rooting for Howard Dean to ignite and unite this party. Once again, Deaniacs ruin anything Howard might, maybe, be able to do. YOU are the reason Dean lost, YOU and thousands like YOU. Isn't it ironic...

[Carolab]

54. Dean is breaking records drawing crowds right now.

Kerry was the nominee when he was drawing those crowds. And a HELL of a lot of those people were there because they were Dean people that Dean asked to support Kerry. Yeah, once we HAD a nominee, we came out en force to try to eject Bush.

Deaniacs ruin anything? Where do you GET OFF?

Howard is doing a hell of a job as DNC chair. Supporting him when the "old school" of DLCers is trying to shut down his support isn't "ruining" anything.

Just because some of us are critical of Kerry's campaign doesn't make us BAD.

P.S. After Howard asked us to support Kerry, I CAMPAIGNED FOR HIM. I even worked with MoveOn to get out the vote. First. Time. Ever. In. My. Life. WHY? Because Howard Dean ASKED ME TO.

[sandnsea]

56. 60,000???

:rofl:

Yeah, they all turned out because "Howard Dean asked them to".

Keep up with this shit, and you and Howard Dean are going to be right back where you were in Jan 2003. Pride goeth before a fall. I wonder if Dean has ever learned that Bible verse. Clearly some supporters need to learn it. Offending people is not the way to win friends and influence people.

And you don't need to tell me I'm offending you. I get that. I just don't do it 50 times a day. There's only 2 groups of candidate supporters who do that.

[Carolab]

58. I didn't say they ALL turned out because Howard Dean asked them to.

I said a lot of us Deaniacs supported Kerry because Dean asked us to. I didn't SAY that all 60,000 were Deaniacs supporting Kerry.

You are INTERPRETING because you don't like my point of view.

[fedupinBushcountry]

38. Sorry

But the Iraq War was first on his agenda, just look back. The first time I saw him speak it was all about the war and very little else. he ran with it, and the media went along, and he fell right into their trap. In the end it was the media who got him and secondly the more he spoke the more he misspoke. Sorry but that is how I see it, and that is just my opinion and you have yours.

But for heaven's sake the primaries were 16 months ago, to be going on and on and bashing and bashing does not help anyone or in that matter Democrats as a whole, it just makes us look like whiners. We will never succeed if all we do is put down one another because we disagree. We need to get over our losses and fight like hell to win back seats in the House and Senate in 2006, that is the most important thing on my mind NOW.

[Carolab]

44. Wrong. He himself has said his first issue was health care.

I have followed Dean's entire campaign and worked for him.

I'm not discussing the primaries, YOU are. I only was agreeing with the poster on the lackluster performance of JFK and how the DLC and DNC PUSHED him onto us when he was running far behind.

Your quote is interesting:
"We need to get over our losses and fight like hell to win back seats in the House and Senate in 2006, that is the most important thing on my mind NOW."

If you read what Dean is saying, THIS IS IT IN A NUTSHELL. And he's working his butt off to get support for progressive candidates across the country and particularly in red states.

[fedupinBushcountry]

55. WRONG

No one pushed John Kerry on to me, not the DNC or the DLC, John Kerry got my respect and woke me up to politics again, No one has done that to me since Bobby Kennedy back in the 60's. So please you don't speak for everyone. I have a mind of my own and follow my gut feelings, I don't follow just because someone says so.

[Carolab]

57. I didn't say anyone pushed Kerry onto YOU.

They pushed Kerry onto Dean supporters, etc.

[wisteria]

50. I agree with you.

I personally don't like attacking others for their opinions. it is unfortunate however, that people continue to attach incorrect assumptions and actions to Kerry. I don't mind valid criticism, but some of the accusations against John Kerry are very unfair,untrue and mean sprited. I agree, our energies are misplaced and we should be focusing them on relevant current issues and 2006.

[fedupinBushcountry]

3. Excuse Me

Excuse me, BUT John Kerry DID NOT vote for the bankruptcy bill, and Hillary was not present that day due to President Clinton having surgery.

It would be nice if you got your facts straight before you go off on a rant.

[Bryn]

5. That's what I thought...

That Kerry did not vote for it and Hillary was not able to vote due to her husband being in the hospital. I got confused!

[Kerrytravelers]

6. self delete

I wasn't being fair. Self delete.

[never_get_over_it]

8. But in fairness to the poster

if you go to the link in the post - there is a post that implies that Kerry and Clinton did vote this way - I saw this and thought to myself Kerry voted that way - so take at easy on the poster got some bad info

[Withywindle]

10. Yeah but.

http://www.senate.gov/

http://www.house.gov/



Good search engine there. Not rocket science. I see this all too often, somebody building up a good head of steam on a rant and not wanting to mess up their momentum with a fact-check.

[never_get_over_it]

13. I completely agree

just saying I can understand the mistake because I was confused by the referenced post too.

[sandnsea]

36. People should check their facts

Especially such informed, educated liberals as are found on DU.

[paulk]

4. nice try

there's a website for threads like yours
it's not DU

[Eric J in MN]

7. You misunderstood the first thread.

John Kerry voted AGAINST the Bankruptcy Bill.

Hillary Clinton didn't vote.

The poster of the other thread lists them as DLC-ers.

[never_get_over_it]

11. I misunderstood that post too

it is confusing talking about the bankruptcy bill and then providing the list - since I was confused too I can certainly understand the mistake

But Hillary is moving too far to the right and it won't work it never does why vote for repunk light when you can have the real thing.

[Goldeneye]

9. Are we talking about this?

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 1st Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate

Vote Summary

Question: On Passage of the Bill (S. 256 As Amended )
Vote Number: 44 Vote Date: March 10, 2005, 06:12 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Bill Passed
Measure Number: S. 256 (Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 )
Measure Title: A bill to amend title 11 of the United States Code, and for other purposes.
Vote Counts: YEAs 74
NAYs 25
Not Voting 1


Alphabetical by Senator Name
Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Yea
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Nay
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Not Voting
Coburn (R-OK), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Coleman (R-MN), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Corzine (D-NJ), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Nay
DeMint (R-SC), Yea
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Nay
Dole (R-NC), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Nay
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Nay
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Nay
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Jeffords (I-VT), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Nay
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Nay
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Nay
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Nay
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Nay
Pryor (D-AR), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Nay
Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Nay
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Yea
Talent (R-MO), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Nay

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00044

[blogbear]

12. Both Indiana Senators Voted Yes.

[globalvillage]

14. The bill had already passed

74-25 as described by the previous posters. I really don't think today's vote had any relevance, although I'm not the expert. I know Sen Kerry spoke out against the bill.

3/10/2005:
Passed Senate with amendments by Yea-Nay. 74 - 25. Record Vote Number: 44. (text: CR 3/11/2005 S2531-2585)
3/14/2005 8:30pm:
Received in the House.
3/14/2005 8:31pm:
Held at the desk.
3/14/2005:
Message on Senate action sent to the House.
3/15/2005:
Referred to the Committee on the Judiciary, and in addition to the Committee on Financial Services, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned.
3/15/2005:
Referred to House Judiciary
3/16/2005:
Committee Consideration and Mark-up Session Held.
3/16/2005:
Ordered to be Reported by the Yeas and Nays: 22 - 13.
3/15/2005:
Referred to House Financial Services
4/8/2005 10:53am:
Reported by the Committee on Judiciary. H. Rept. 109-31, Part I.
4/8/2005 10:53am:
Committee on Financial Services discharged.
4/8/2005 10:53am:
Placed on the Union Calendar, Calendar No. 14.
4/13/2005 5:32pm:
Rules Committee Resolution H. Res. 211 Reported to House. Rule provides for consideration of S. 256 with 1 hour of general debate. Previous question shall be considered as ordered without intervening motions except motion to recommit with or without instructions. The rule waives all points of order against the bill and against its consideration. Measure will be considered read. Bill is closed to amendments.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN00256:@@@X

[OzarkDem]

19. Both are off my list

D'oh!

That was an incredibly bad bill for any Dem to support, no excuses.

As far as I'm concerned, its a pretty good litmus test of who should or shouldn't be supported for 2008. Kind of hard to recover from a mistake this stupid.

:dunce:

[LittleClarkie]

23. So what does that have to do with Clinton or Kerry?

when neither voted for it, and in fact Kerry voted for all the amendments that were supposed to fix it.

Why attack the DLC, when the story has Harry Reid taking credit for the damn bill, and he's not even a member of the DLC.

What the hey?

[WilliamPitt]

24. WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOO...

Oh, sorry. My Gibberish Alarm went off.

[WildEyedLiberal]

27. YOU ARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

NEITHER OF THEM VOTED FOR THAT BILL.

Why are you posting deliberately misleading bile on DU? Do you have an ulterior motive?

[Kerrytravelers]

32. Was the op a deliberate lie or just a misunderstanding?

I wish the op would come back and clear this up, otherwise they will be labeled a freeper/troll and banned.

[JI7]

33. seems deliberate to me

even in the other thread with the same lies this person responded and even after there were replies correcting them they responded with the sames and then made this other thread of their own repeating the lies even more.

[Kerrytravelers]

39. I didn't know about other threads. Seems deliberate to me, too.

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. He linked to a thread in which the roll call was posted

It takes TWO SECONDS to find out that Kerry did not vote for the Bankruptcy bill.

He CHOSE to be disruptive and dishonest.

And the fact that he posted and fled says volumes as well.

EVERYONE who had the nerve to agree with the OP should be aware that they look like a fool now, for going along with such a blatant lie, and unquestioningly accepting untrue garbage because it suits their prejudices.

[Kerrytravelers]

40. "he posted and fled says volumes" Point well made. I believe you are right

[saltpoint]

42. Exactly right. Righteous rage is one thing.

A lie is quite another.

[quinnox]

30. Why post lies about two prominent Dems?

And does DU policy allow false information about Dems to be posted without locking?

[WildEyedLiberal]

37. Alert

Everyone needs to alert on this thread. The fact that it hasn't been locked already is a disgrace to DU.

[quinnox]

47. They know to post it at this late hour

When there are no mods around.

Howver, I will keep kicking this until I see an official answer

I have to go in a short time, but when I return (in 10 hours or so) I will keep this kicked continually

If this is allowed, I am going to have a field day posting false crap about Tom Delay and the other Republican scum

[saltpoint]

41. I would take issue with the term 'wet dream' used as a verb.

Grammarians may quibble but traditional usage demands a noun from a common noun modified by an adjective.

Further, you might consider hyphenating 'piss-poor.' If the diction is intended to suggest a neglible quality of a given subject, the conventional use favors the hyphen. Some U.S.-published dictionaies and usage manuals will not ask for the hyphen, while the NYTimes manual and the Oxford dictionary may.

'Weather-beaten' is an example of this across-the-pond disparity.

Senator Kerry demonstrably voted against the Bush-backed middle-class-smashing bankruptcy bill, despite your rant to the contrary. Sometimes the beautiful maiden guesses Rumpelstiltskin's name after all.

But it only makes Rumpelstiltskin fly into a rage all the more.

[saltpoint]

45. Seems to me that there's plenty about John Bolton --

-- more deserving of your rage.

Why not tear him a new one instead of going after a former First Lady elected by voters in New York State by a comfortable margin, and the Democrats' nominee against Bush, who with Senator Edwards managed to smash all existing historical voting records for a Democratic ticket?

If you are unable to find something to affirm in these Democrats, it may be that you aren't looking very hard.

This was an appalling post for its pre-pubescent rage and its factual dishonesty.

[WildEyedLiberal]

52. "Pre-pubescent rage and factual dishonesty"

That really, really sums up a vast majority of this garbage.

[saltpoint]

51. Mr. Flibble? Mr. Flibble? Is there a Mr. Flibble in the house?

The strategy appears to be:

Post an inflammatory topic on DU GD boards.

Smear Kerry the 2004 Democratic nominee to insult Democratic voters.

Smear Hillary Clinton because she's an intelligent, popular potential presidential candidate.

Invoke the DLC because how better to get a fight going over at DU than that.

Then haul ass out the back door and return to god knows where.

Well!

I for one am still miffed at the mechanical and grammatical errors in the original post. A mandatory usage and style workshop could be in order for one Mr. Flibble.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.