I am (still) angry at fundies. I don't like them.

[Ladyhawk]

I even find myself angry at people who defend them.

Part of me realizes that I'm really angry at myself for ever having been a fundy. I'm angry at the things I did as a fundy. I'm pissed off that other fundies seem to be too bullheaded to even consider they might be wrong.

I tried for years to reconcile differences with fundies, only to find they tend to be back-stabbers and control freaks. They can't just let me be. When they learn I'm an atheist, they absolutely have to convert me. I gave fundies every benefit of the doubt until, after the last betrayal by a "nice" fundy, I realized I can no longer associate with such people. I don't like feeling this way, but I tried for years to bridge the gap. It's too wide, at least for me.

Question: if I learn not to be angry with myself for being a fundy, will it help me deal with fundies? Or are some of you just as angry without the baggage? Lots of people have been hurt by fundies, but fewer have actually been a fundy who left. For that reason, I'm an extra special fundy target. They cannot stand the idea that someone raised in their religion rejected it as a toxic, garbage-filled cesspool of irrational beliefs.

LH

[wookie294]

1. I've never been a fundy, but I share your anger

Don't be so hard on yourself!!! It took alot of courage to make a major change in your life by rejecting a philosophy you once believed in. Be proud of yourself for being willing to change!

[Flammable Materials]

2. I was one once too. A major league asshole fundy.

There's even old BBS messages archived by someone on the web to prove it.

In retrospect, I consider it a learning experience.

Here's a little sample of the happy happy joy joy preached by the church I managed to escape from:

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuItem_itemID=6937&cuTopic_topicID=30

[Ladyhawk]

4. So, how do you feel about fundies?

Mostly, I'm trying to get them out of my life since they have proven to be so destructive. Maybe I have to be angry in order to make this change. Properly-channeled anger can help one make positive changes.

I worry about anger becoming destructive, however.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Ooh, Wisconsin Synod!

:scared:

As an LCA Lutheran pastor, my father was on some of their mailing lists.

They're fundamentalists with German hymns.

[Bill McBlueState]

71. lutherans

Wait, so which Lutherans are the "good" ones?

I know about the existence of the Wisconsin Synod, the Missouri Synod, and the ELCA. Who are the good guys?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. The ELCA are the mostly liberal Lutherans

and are by far the largest group.

The Wisconsin Synod (WELS) and the Missouri Synod (LCMS) both have a fundamentalist theology with more mainstream-looking worship styles, such as formal liturgies and traditional hymns. For that reason, the more typical fundamentalists, with their show bizzy services, don't like them much either.

[RPM]

116. dont let the Evangelical in the name fool you

the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) are generally the most liberal. The evangelical part still kinda throws me - i grew up ELCA and i never thought those around me were evangelical in any true sense. Even today, long out of that whole scene, they dont come off as evangelical to me at all...

[Lindacooks]

99. Yeah, I was Missouri Synod.

They're fundies with the swastika.

[kliljedahl]

40. DAMN!!! They really believe that shit?

Its worse than I thought


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Zenlitened]

3. Plenty of reason to be angry at the fundies. Disgusted by them, too.

They've melded religion and politics into something truly toxic. On just about every level, they are the very antithesis of progressive ideals and aspirations.

Don't let your anger consume you, but don't be too quick to discard it, either. Anger is a natural emotion, an honest response to something horrible and wrong. Tap into it, and fight these reactionary freaks who would plunge us all into the Dark Ages, or some sort of Taliban-like primitive state.

[jody]

5. Anger never solves problems. Focus on facts like unemployment,

lack of health care, declining education, and ask what would Jesus the Christ do?

You can disagree with fundys on matters like punishment in the afterlife for sins in this life, but hopefully you can agree on a few basic issues that Republicans ignore.

Humanist Manifestos I says, “A socialized and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that the equitable distribution of the means of life be possible. The goal of humanism is a free and universal society in which people voluntarily and intelligently cooperate for the common good. Humanists demand a shared life in a shared world.”

Humanist Manifestos II says, “The principle of moral equality must be furthered through elimination of all discrimination based upon race, religion, sex, age, or national origin. This means equality of opportunity and recognition of talent and merit. Individuals should be encouraged to contribute to their own betterment. If unable, then society should provide means to satisfy their basic economic, health, and cultural needs, including, wherever resources make possible, a minimum guaranteed annual income. We are concerned for the welfare of the aged, the infirm, the disadvantaged, and also for the outcasts -- the mentally retarded, abandoned, or abused children, the handicapped, prisoners, and addicts -- for all who are neglected or ignored by society. Practicing humanists should make it their vocation to humanize personal relations.”

Humanist Manifesto III says, “Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature’s resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.”

I've found that even atheists agree on the following as a basis for social morality.

[Zenlitened]

8. But fundies don't give a damn about any of those things.

They think it's your own fault if you can't afford your medical bills. Thay have the stated goal of destroying public education. If one of them has even the foggiest notion of what jesus christ advocated, I've yet to see any evidence of it.

It's all well and good to suggest we should all link arms and sing 'Kumbaya' together, but the fact is these people would sooner strangle us than stand with us -- on anything.

Anger is neither good nor bad. It's what we do with it that matters. Recognizing that our anger is justified, tappping into it and doing something about it, is healthy and right.


Edited to add: Loved the "even atheists" reference, BTW. :eyes:

[jody]

10. I have many fundys that are close friends and they care very much

about unemployment, health care, education, and other key issues. When was the last time you had lunch with a fundy and discussed those issues?
:shrug:

[Zenlitened]

11. Why, just yesterday, as a matter of fact.

We dined on the souls of unbelievers.

[Ladyhawk]

24. All my life, actually. :)

They don't care about unemployment, health care, education and other key issues. My mother blamed the unemployed for their unemployment. She blamed those without health care for their predicament. She only cared about education as far as it enforced her own narrow beliefs. The same could be said for nearly every other fundy I have had lunch with in my lifetime.

The "nicer" fundies make noises about being concerned about those issues, but they continue to vote Republican while their tithes and offerings go to make their church buildings nicer. No church I ever attended gave a flying fuck about the poor, the unemployed, the uninsured and the under-educated. Most didn't even have a food pantry.

In fact, before our falling out, I asked my fundy "friend" to help someone down on her luck. He said his church "wasn't equipped" to handle such a request. They could buy her food, but couldn't help her pay her bills. :eyes: She didn't need food. She needed money so the electric company wouldn't shut off her power. I contributed what I could. The fundy "friend" did, too, but unless he is guilted into helping, I have a feeling he doesn't. He won't go out of his way to help unless it involves soul-saving.

Yes, I am angry at this unfeeling mob of irrational radicals.

[kliljedahl]

41. Don't confuse Fundies with Evangelicals

I'm an Atheist so don't misconstrue where I'm coming from. Read "God's Politics" By Jim Wallis. I've seen him a few times on TV & bought the book after seeing him on The Daily Show. I can't believe his Jesus crap, but he does make a good case that most Xtians care about all those things. They've been hijacked & many are starting to regret voting for*.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Jamastiene]

49. Do you know the meaning of the term

fundy?

Fundamentalists (fundies for short) believe that:

Unemployment - People who are out of work are lazy. Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, but we are going to severely limit the sale of boots with straps.
Health Care - It's all the patient's fault if they get hurt on the job or get a disease. BTW, they also believe that disease is punishment from God for being a sinner. They blame malpractice insurance for the high cost of health care. Never mind the fact that malpractice insurance wouldn't be so expensive if doctors didn't do some of the totally irresponsible and sometimes downright stupid things like leaving gauze in the wound when they stitch a person up after surgery and lasering their initials on a woman's womb while performing surgery and amputating the wrong foot because they aren't paying attention to what they are doing and ignoring a patient's symptoms until it is too late to do anything about the cause of those symptoms.
Education - You are right. They do care about education. They care so much they want to dismantle the public education system when it is because of them it isn't working like it should. Ever heard of the "Bell Curve"? That only still exists in this day and age so they can say integration was a bad idea because they insist on keep the myth alive that black children aren't as smart as white children. On this key issue, I recommend that you take a look at the current state of the Charlotte Mecklenburg School system and the debate surrounding what is basically an attempt to re-segregate the public schools. That situation is a prime example of how they are basically fighting over integration and trying to reverse it when the real problem is that they won't fund it properly or distribute the funds evenly between white neighborhoods and black ones and poor neighborhoods and more affluent ones. That reminds me of another position the fundies take. They don't believe in supporting public school budgets. They always cut funding to public school when they are in a position of power and can. It never fails.

I think you are talking to a moderate if you think they really care, because a fundy believes what I just explained to you. And they believe those points in lock step with every other fundy across the country. There is no dissent among fundies.

[readmoreoften]

56. Oh are we talking about the 5% again?

I'm sick of being reduced to discussing the virtues of 5% of fundamentalist Christians and told to ignore the 95% of them who are atavistic hatemongers.

[Jamastiene]

129. Good one. eom

[readmoreoften]

57. Oh are we talking about the 5% again?

I'm sick of being reduced to discussing the virtues of 5% of fundamentalist Christians and told to ignore the 95% of them who are atavistic hatemongers.

[Tux]

66. Last Christmas

When my uncle said I was an atheist (I'm a Deistic Buddhist), claimed I am against religion (I'm all for it), that I hate America (I'm more conservative on economics than Clinton), and I'm anti-Christian (I'm not a Christian).

Of course, my fundie aunt advocated killing gays, non-Christians (except Jews), and anyone that disagrees with her is evil.

SO yes, I have dealt with them.

[donco6]

90. Really?

Wow. I was a fundie for 15 years and didn't give a rat's ass.

What do you consider a fundy? Methodists don't count. Unitarians don't count. Most Presbyterians don't count. Episcopalians definitely don't count, except those that are pulling out of the church.

[Ladyhawk]

20. I agree with you. Anger isn't bad in and of itself.

It can be tapped into and used for good or evil or something in-between. I need to keep some kind of perspective, though.

I don't ask "What would Jesus do?" because I don't believe in Jesus--or any other religion. I believe in using my own mind, fueled by information, to make decisions. I can't follow anyone else's path because I am a unique individual. What works for one person may not work for me.

Dogma is the enemy here. Dogma comes in many forms, from secular to religious. Anything that even smacks of dogma--like asking what someone else would do--is not good. I have to use my own mind.

[jives]

63. That's exactly right

In 2 short paragraphs you said i all!!

[Ladyhawk]

75. Thanks. :)

[hatrack]

118. You remind me of Winston Smith's girlfriend in "1984", Julia

Orwell writes how she could never refer to the Party without the crudest curses and profanity, but that it never offended Winston. Instead it seemed purely natural, like the sneeze of a horse smelling sour hay.

That's pretty much my reaction, too, when dealing with the Thumpers.

Anger IS a gift. :hi:

[FreedomAngel82]

30. Exactly

Exactly. I've tried aruging with fundies just now on abortion. :mad: I HATE THESE PEOPLE!

[Taxloss]

72. Well said. I winced at the "even atheists" remark.

A very low blow.

[jody]

76. Perhaps you are overly sensitive. Read my post again because

I said that some atheists agree with the golden rule that clearly originated among religious communities and cited the 20th century secular humanist manifestos I, II, and III for support.

Are you concerned that people from both secular communities and religious communities agree on some point? :shrug:

[Taxloss]

77. I was more offended by your implication that this "golden rule"

is somehow the sovereign territory of religion, and that while "some" atheists might somehow "opt into" it, we regard it as optional.

In fact, this "Golden Rule" is the bedrock of all moral thought. It far predates Christianity, and the faith that you forgot to add to your list is Satanism - Aleister Crowley, among others of that disposition, saw it as the only moral.

You implied that moral thought was the preserve of the religious, and that we dilettante atheists could wander in and out. This is quite wrong, and the casual assumption inidcates that even if I was being "overly sensitive", I probably had reason to be.

[jody]

80. Why do you think I quoted the three secular humanist manifestos?

If you had bothered to scan the poster I included, you would know that only one of the thirteen religions was Christianity? :shrug:

[Taxloss]

86. I did read the poster.

I suppose I should be happy you didn't try to make out that atheism is a religion. But you said "I Have found that even atheists ...". This implies a degree of surprise, for some reason. Why is that? Do you think we have no morals at all? You compounded this by saying that I might be surprised that you think that there are some areas theists and atheists agree. I'm not surprised in the least, but you seem to think I should be, indicating that you feel atheists share little or nothing of the moral, spiritual and philosophical outlook of Western civilisation.

Why do you think we are so very, very different?

[jody]

92. If atheism has a system of beliefs, then it is properly a religion.

For example, there are significant differences between the first Humanist Manifesto and the third as regards the issue of religion. Each of them is an attempt to express a system of beliefs.

If you are an atheist, then other than believing there is no god or gods and perhaps no existence after your mortal body dies and decays, then to what specific system of beliefs do you ascribe?

[neebob]

93. The belief that no god exists is hardly a system

and this from m-w.com:

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

[jody]

94. But groups have proposed systems of belief that did not depend

upon god(s).

I suggest you read the three Humanist Manifestos at American Humanist Association and see how some of the most brilliant minds in the 20th century have progressed from 1933, to 1973 to the 21st century with developing a system of beliefs that are not god-dependent.

QUOTE
What is Humanism?

As Kurt Vonnegut succinctly described: being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.

Humanism is a progressive lifestance that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.
UNQUOTE

[neebob]

121. Okay, but atheism will still not be a belief system

when I'm finished reading these manifestos.

[jody]

134. OK, if that's your opinion, but for others it can be a system if beliefs.

[Taxloss]

97. I have no "system" of beliefs.

I have no creed, no doctrine, and no code handed from any priest or book or ceremony. I have beliefs, but I have no faith in any spiritual being. Communism is a "system of beliefs" - should it be considered a religion? Capitalism is a "system of beliefs" - is it a religion? Is it necessary to have a system? Can't one just read, and think, and make up one's mind? Being an atheist doesn't mean you must, at all costs, ignore the Sermon on the Mount, or the Seven Pillars of Islam - you can read them and consider them as philosophy. Theists would love to think that atheists exist in a vacuum. It is simply untrue. We can adopt the best moral teaching from your faiths and ignore the doctrinal ceremonials.

[jody]

104. You are correct that broadly defined, "communism" and "capitalism"

are indeed religions.

When you say "We can adopt the best moral teaching from your faiths and ignore the doctrinal ceremonials", you have taken the first step toward codifying a system of beliefs, a journey that many others have taken over millenniums.

Many who have taken that trip have found that except for the belief or disbelief in god(s), they find an amazing commonality in their core beliefs. To me, that suggests we can agree to disagree regarding the existence or nonexistence of god(s) and still live in harmony in this life.

I commend to you “THE RUINS, OR, MEDITATION ON THE REVOLUTIONS OF EMPIRES: AND THE LAW OF NATURE” by C. F. VOLNEY. Although written in 1890, it is timeless.

[Taxloss]

108. I can assemble an individual set of beliefs, but does that

make ME a religion? I do not preach it to anyone. There are no atheist tracts. There are tracts written by atheists, but atheists have no obligation to heed them.

By the way, I like your implication we're thousands of years behind your "systems", what with my "first step". Yeah. I'm mighty uncivilised. I can't even read the enormous bodies of writing religion has given the world. I have taken that trip; I was born to atheist parents, converted, was batised, took confirmation classes, was confirmed, studied, was a chapel warden, and then travelled further.

I think we can live in perfect harmony if you accept that my moral universe is every bit as valid and valuable as your.

[jody]

113. I do accept that your moral universe is

every bit as valid and valuable as mine. Nothing I've said nor what I think is contrary to that statement.

Why do you persist in misinterpreting what I write.

I've enjoyed the exchange. Have a nice evening, good bye. :hi:

[Taxloss]

114. You too. Goodnight.

I'm sorry you thought I was misinterpreting you.

[Ladyhawk]

127. Not all atheists necessary ascribe to the Humanist Manifesto.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. That's all. It is not a system of beliefs.

[jody]

135. And belief in god(s) is not a system of beliefs but it can be the basis

for system of beliefs.

A belief that god(s) do not exist can also be the basis for a system of beliefs. :shrug:

[jody]

74. What's you problem with my "even atheists" statement that some

agree with the golden rule that is pervasive among religions?

Are you concerned that people from both secular communities and religious communities agree on some point? :shrug:

[Zenlitened]

122. I think your question was answered quite nicely by Taxloss...

... in post #77 above.

:eyes:

[jody]

133. My question was to you, not someone else. n/t

[Zenlitened]

137. C'mon, you can do better than that.

Or is this the 'angry fundy' routine you're trotting out now?

[jody]

138. Is that the best you can do? n/t

[Zenlitened]

139. "I'm rubber, you're glue..."

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Pushed To The Left]

105. Economic populism might be a good way

to win over some of the more religious voters that have been manipulated by the right wing. Social issues are extremely important to me, and I want to DESTROY the religious right. Economic populism might be a good way to get progressive candidates in office, which in turn will help socially liberal causes.

[jody]

115. I agree. Eventually many of the most narrow minded Christians will

realize that the neocons have robbed the working masses and given to the obscenely wealthy.

One-half percent of US citizens own over 42% of our financial wealth and control all the major US multinational corporations. With continued bipartisan reductions of taxes on estates, capital gains, dividends, and corporations, the one-half per centers could own over 70% of our financial wealth before the 22nd century.

The sad thing is while some members of religions are praying for god's blessings, the neocons are preying with mammon's blessings.

[impeachthescoundrel]

6. Although I have never been a fundie

I too am angry. Sometimes with myself, because I am old enough to remember a similar division, although not as blatant. And you know what? It didn't last forever and this won't either.

That was in the late 60s and early 70s before computers were around. I never wanted to shut them up like I do now, but they were all the same.Overbearing, bullying brats who had to have it all. A whole shitload of Veruka Salts.

Cheer up and believe me, it won't last forever. Congratulation to you and be proud of the change for the better you have made in your life.

[Fridays Child]

7. Your anger is understandable. But what caused you to reject that mindset?

Was it one thing? A series of things? A sudden awakening? Was it a religious change and a political change for you? Did one lead to the other?

In fact, I'd like to know what caused all of the former fundies and conservatives on DU to become Liberals.

[Ladyhawk]

16. It's a really long story. In fact, I have a deal with someone to write...

...a book. The book will have to wait until after I've recovered from surgery, but it will be a huge undertaking.

In short, it was a series of things. And my rejection of religion eventually led me to reject Republican politics. My rejection of Republican politics came to fruition when shrub decided to attack Iraq. The whole process took many years. My politics changed while my religious beliefs were changing, but the final ability to reject my old politics came about because I had learned to think for myself.

[applegrove]

9. So you were a militant islamist? n/t

[Ladyhawk]

17. Nope. I was a militant Christian fundamentalist.

Militant Christianity is the United States' problem. Militant Islam is the Middle East's problem. But of course, we've mixed politcs and religion and made militant fundamentalism of any stripe EVERYONE'S problem. Sigh.

[applegrove]

43. Fundies are vulnerable to following the wrong compass. We have

learnt so much in the last 2000 or 1500 years. It would be a shame to go so far back in time. Yes read the bible but update it and put the customary law stuff in context.

[Jamastiene]

53. Actually, Whoopi Goldberg

pointed something out that sounds simliar to what I think you are saying. She asked the audience if they had ever read Leviticus. Only a few clapped. She then asked the audience if they knew that the book of the Bible that is often thrown in the face of gay people also said that if a man ever touched a bed a woman with her period he had been in, he was to be put to death. She said half the audience would be dead if we tried to follow that literally. She also pointed out some other things in there and it made perfect sense when she asked if we CAN really live at all if we take it literally or only concentrate on the stricter Old Testament.

[Merope215]

102. I never saw that

but maybe you remember that email that was going around a while ago - it even made an appearance on "The West Wing" - pointing out how stupid it is to fixate on Old Testament gay-bashing when there's so much other ridiculous stuff in there that no one pays attention to anymore, like wearing garments of two threads or touching the skin of a dead pig. Unfortunately, this message is obvious and should be to anyone who reads Leviticus (or Deuteronomy).

I say "unfortunately" because I don't think pointing out the hypocrisy is going to work. Present-day fundies don't pick and choose verses because they're internally consistent and allow them to maintain a harmonious worldview. They do it to justify prejudices and hatreds that are already there - to solidify a hold over women and people they perceive to be "lazy" (i.e., poor) or "deviant" or any number of other human qualities that they don't like. Pointing out the cafeteria-style theology of a fundy is never going to work. The Bible doesn't mean anything to them unless it is only the parts of it that serve to support and justify their own narrow worldviews.

They can't see the forest for the trees. To me, the whole point of Christianity is that a god died for people who didn't deserve it. That is, for some people, a powerful guide to living one's life in humility and service to all people everywhere, and that means all people, even and especially if (are you listening, lurking freepers?) they're poor, sick, heartbroken, in pain, voiceless, and oppressed. Fundies who miss this essential fact are sad people, but in the face of all of the evil they've done to people who were unlucky enough to get in their way, I can't say I feel very bad for them.

I guess what I meant to say before I started rambling (:P) was that Whoopi is right, but she missed the point. Fundies aren't interested in being consistent, which is really too bad for the rest of us.

[CountAllVotes]

12. new group: Recovering Fundies

right here on the DU! :D

:kick:

[Ladyhawk]

14. Seriously? Or are you proposing such? n/t

[CountAllVotes]

15. no you might like to start one

what don't you msg. skinner and see what he thinks about this idea? I'm not a recovering fundie but I think it could be a GREAT idea! :think: :D


You like I take it?

:kick:

[Ladyhawk]

18. Very much. I was part of an ex-fundy forum, but it wasn't very

well-moderated. The mods allowed one member to get away with stuff no one else could and when I challenged it by doing the same thing myself (to show the hypocrisy), I got banned. There was a "cult of personality" problem and most people publicly took the part of the serial abuser while privately assuring me that the serial disruptor was a dick and that they were afraid of him. I was really broken up when I was banned. Not. Well, actually, I was broken up by the betrayal. It just goes to show you that betrayal can come from all types of people. Sigh.

In retrospect, I carried the whole thing a bit too far, but I'm not sorry to be out of that dangerous place. One sociopath in a small forum can be very dangerous to those trying to recover from pain.

[Jamastiene]

51. kick

I'd include survivors of spiritual abuse somewhere in the name of the group or the mission statement. I'd subscribe and post.

[Ladyhawk]

78. Yes, I've been a victim of "spiritual abuse" too. It seems to go along

with the whole "fundy" experience. My best "friends" tried to exorcize me. When I got really depressed, my friend Jana decided it was due to a demon, got the rest of my friends together and tried to cast the damn sucker out. But since he wasn't in there to begin with, he wouldn't come out. Stupid demon. Shame on him for not existing.

Later, Jana told me not to come back until I "trusted Jesus" to fix my problem. Sweet Jesus! I was praying every day all day, asking what I'd done wrong and please God, help me! I walked the campus at night, feeling tormented and praying non-stop. I did this for years until I realized no one was listening. No one cared.

On edit: Jamastiene, how would you define "spiritual abuse"? What I described surely fits. I would also include the proselytization attempt by my fundy "friend" because he had explicitly promised not to do it.

[Jamastiene]

130. I got the term on several different web sites I found online.

Some of their definitions of it were what I was referring to. Here is one.
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/introduction.html

and here is a link to a list to many others like it.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=spiritual%2Babuse&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1

I would define it as any form of religion that seeks to gain control of an individual's life and/or mind, based on perceived immorality of the individual, using mind control methods including constant and relentless emotional abuse, physical abuse, threats and/or hassasment.

That's just a rough draft attempt on my part to try to describe or define it.

[HockeyMom]

13. Osama Exploits Islam

and George Bush and company exploits Christianity. I was raised a Catholic, but I sure don't want the Pope ruling America, let alone Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc. I fully support the separation of church and state. America has worked for over 200 years this way. They trying to turn it into a Christian Theocracy.

They are making me for one hate my own religion. I am ashamed to even call myself a Christian these days.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. If they

ever got rid of that it would be very dangerous. Anybody remember Salem? :scared:

[Pushed To The Left]

111. Separation of church and state

is more important now than ever!

www.aclu.org The ACLU
www.au.org Americans United For Separation of Church and State
www.pfaw.org People For the American Way

[Joey Liberal]

19. Fundies think they are better than everyone else

Fundies think everyone else is going to hell, while they alone are going to heaven. They cannot be reasoned with, and they are easily duped by right wing politicians and wacko preachers.

[Ladyhawk]

21. I have to agree. Having been there, I truly know.

But what made me change? I know the long version of that, but it may not be helpful at all to another fundy caught in the trap.

[NAO]

22. Essential Strategic Background Info on these Dangerous Extremists

There is a sinister movement behind the fundies. Fundamentalist Radical Clerics such as Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson are not merely medieval throwbacks or misguided religious hacks. They are part of a well organized subversionary movement known as "Dominionism".

The articles below describe the conception, development, and swift advance of the Dominionist movement:

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

Video on the Christian Reconstructionist Dominionist Theocratic Agenda
http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/video_dominion.ram

The Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party
a public information project from TheocracyWatch.org
http://www.theocracywatch.org

Katherine Yurica has also written a Bible based critique of the Bush administration and a detaled analysis of why the fundies are on the wrong side of most every issue, based on their own scriptures.

Bloodguilty Churches
Why Bush’s Agenda Is Immoral and an Abomination to God
http://www.yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html

Contents of Bloodguilty Churches

In the Beginning
Invade Iraq or What's a Preemptive Strike?
Lies About the Threat of War
What Does the Bible Say About Preemptive Strikes?
The War Fairs
What Does the Bible Say About Profiting from War?
Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo
Does Mr. Bush Have the Moral High Ground?
Bush's Agenda for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid
What Does the Bible Say About How a Nation Must Treat the Poor and the Sick?
Mr. Bush's Immigration Plans
Deregulate Health and Safety and Environmental Laws
What Does the Bible Say About Rigging Devices?
Mr. Bush’s “Justice” Versus the Bible’s Justice
The Development of the Biblical Justice System
Be Careful Not to Commit Judicial Murders: The Texas Clemency Memos
Is Mr. Bush's Tort Reform Biblical?
The Bible's Criminal and Civil Code System
What Does the Bible Say About Abortions?
GOP Operatives as Slanderers and Hooligans, Scorner's and Ridiculers
What's Wrong With Today's Churches and 'Christians'?
Profile of the Man God Hates
End Notes

"George W. Bush, his administration, the Republican controlled congress as well as the Republican Party itself, and most of the churches in America (including evangelical, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal and Roman Catholic), stand indicted—not by men—not by this writer—but by the very Holy Scriptures the religious-right and Mr. Bush profess to uphold."

"Weighed against the Bible, the Bush actions are not only morally corrupt—they are unchristian and unbiblical to the core."

"In this essay, the Bush agenda is weighed on the scale of God’s standards and it is found wanting."


The Yurica Report - News, Intelligence, Analysis
http://www.yuricareport.com

[Ladyhawk]

25. When my mother said that the best form of government was a theocracy,

I asked her who was going to channel god? :) Since she watches Robertson and Falwell, I'm guessing they'll be the ones.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. I saw that sometime last year

It's really scary and these people are really serious as well. :scared:

[genieroze]

26. I'm a Christian but I don't think I'm a fundie. I'm way too open minded.

I just don't associate with narrow minded people. Being a Christian you are supposed to turn the other cheek but I fear if I did they would slap me on the other side. I can't deal with self righteous, narrow minded, anal retentive, hypocritical a-holes who wrongly use Jesus as an excuse to act like they do. This is what I think a fundie is.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. Same here

I'm a democratic Christian and get fed up with all the fundies. I don't know why I try talking to them.

[Ladyhawk]

36. It must be hard for those who are non-fundy Christians.

They've turned your religion into something horrible--at least the way they practice it. How did my liberal Christian professors put up with me? They must have thought I was unreachable. Eventually, it sank in and I chose my own path (atheism).

But it took YEARS and since everyone is different, I'm not sure they can be reached. Besides, if we befriend them only on the condition that they change to our beliefs, are we any better than they are? For that matter, is it any better to only associate with other liberals? :shrug:

For my part, I have no desire to associate with fundies. I tried for years to bridge the gap and it didn't work. I choose not to associate with them. Of course, I also choose not to associate with people who drive racecars because I'm not interested in that "sport." However, I think I'm a lot more angry at fundies than I am at racecar drivers.

[Ladyhawk]

35. That's exactly what a fundy is. :(

(((((((((((((genieroze))))))))))))))

[bamacrat]

27. You should not be angry with yourself, you are a leader.

Anyone who has been raised in the "system" that wants out can look to people like you who have "seen the light."

[Beam Me Up]

28. I was raised by fundies but never drank the kool-aid

I was a "good little boy" and never got into trouble and took my religion quite seriously. Carried a New Testament with me where ever I went and was quite puzzled by the hypocrisy I saw in the adults around me. At the same time inside this "good little boy" some very strong contradictions were battling their way to the surface. By the time I was a teenager it was clear to me that I was "gay" -- and that was clearly unacceptable. I struggled inwardly with this question and came, on my own, to the conclusion that it was more destructive to my "soul" to LIE about who and what I am than anything else. I determined early on that the only way I was going to survive was to keep my mouth shut and get as far away from them as quickly as possible--which is precisely what I did.

I'm making all this very brief and rather straight forward. It wasn't like that, of course. In fact, it was damned traumatic. I went through years of rage, depression, confusion and suicidal ideation. Had I not gotten the psychological help I needed when I needed it, I have no way of knowing where or how I would have ended up. Dead, most likely, one way or another. (There are all kinds of ways of 'killing' one's self aside from slashing wrists, ingesting pills or inserting a gun in your mouth and pulling a trigger.) Fortunately I did get help.

I can not abide fundies or their so called "religion" (which, so far as I'm concerned, is little more than a collective psychosis). I have absolutely NOTHING to do with my family of birth. Both my parents are gone now and I did maintain some contact while they were alive; but I have nothing to say to my two sisters their husbands or their families.

I learned long ago to set boundaries and maintain them viligently--it is the only thing that kept me sane.

BMU

[Ladyhawk]

29. Your story sounds very similar to mine, Beam Me Up.

The only difference is that I'm sexually dysfunctional rather than gay. Had I turned out to be gay, it would have been even worse. I am so sorry that you had to go through so much because of your sexual orientation. I apologize to you because I cannot apologize to the gay people that I hurt when I was a fundy. One of them died of AIDS years ago. :( The hatred toward gays in the fundy religion is sickening and I bought into it. Mass psychosis, indeed.

I drank the Kool-Aid to some extent, but I was always a "good little girl" who never got into trouble. As I grew, I also noticed the hypocrisy. When I became depressed at age 18, I blamed myself when God didn't help me. It took me awhile to figure out that I wasn't the problem; God was--at least, the God I had worshiped during my life. The God of the fundies is bloodthirsty, irrational and cruel. No wonder I thought I deserved punishment. The root of every problem I had could be traced directly back to fundamentalism.

It took me years, but I finally gave up on fundamentalism, then on religion altogether, then on the Republican world view. In November, I told my family to go take a flying leap, which has mostly been a positive move. I nearly gave in recently and asked them back into my life. I'm facing surgery at the end of the month. The pain and lack of support is really hurting. I have to do it by myself, though. If I can get through this without them, I can get through anything. (I hope.)

I've started over, carefully building my life on principles of a new kind of morality that doesn't adhere to dogma. Instead of asking, "What would Jesus do?" I ask, "What should Ladyhawk do?" Like everyone else, I make mistakes and muddle through as best I can. But it's better than waiting on a non-existent god to intervene.

[Beam Me Up]

47. I wish you the best...

It sounds like a difficult time. I would like to offer you my energetic support. I can see you have courage and intelligence. I don't doubt there is also within you a wish for a true inner peace. That is, a peace that comes through an accepting awareness. What is, is the pathway to what some call "God" (what others choose to leave unnamed).

Thank you for your apology but you needn't feel guilty. I've come to terms within myself regarding God and religion, sexuality and much else. I have always been a very spiritual person and I remain so. Much of my life has been spent searching to understand how it is that the great spiritual teachings become distorted through time--often turning into the opposite of that intended in their origins.

Truth, faith, love, forgiveness (and many others)--these are potential human qualities that can and sometimes do manifest in us for moments at a time. But the problem is they are not permanent in us because we, ourselves, are fragmented and impermanent within. Our inner attention is shallow and fleeting. And yet, this, too, is something which must be accepted--without either resignation or some Pollyanna pretense of being more than one is. True conscience only begins to appear in myself in those moments when I see that I am far from being whole and all that a true human being can be.

You mention facing your situation alone. It is true, on one level, we all must face our lives--and our deaths--alone. Even if surrounded by our closest loved ones, we must face our life and our death, alone. But life is bigger and if we look at it differently we see that our aloneness is relative. When we look out into the world of nature, for example, we see a world of embedded relationships--animals, plants, sunlight, air--all these things are interconnected in a web of life that is much bigger than us, even than this Earth. To know that from within, to experience the sacred truth of that for one's self is to move in an entirely new direction.

I wish you good health and the loving support you deserve.

BMU

[Jamastiene]

52. Our stories sound similar.

I am a lesbian who has experienced being surrounded by the extreme antigay sentiment the fundies have. I was raised in a Christian school that taught not only antigay sentiments but racism. It has caused me a lot of grief over my life and I am still trying to cope with my own self esteem issues because I tried for so long to deny who I was and tried to live the celibate life they wanted me to live. It was impossible. I tried to make myself be straight and then when that didn't work I tried to make myself be celibate. When that started wearing my self esteem down, I tried to commit suicide several times. I finally decided that if there is a God, he's been no help to me, so why keep fighting who I am quite as hard. I still say the ex-gay idea is bad for people and the APA (American Psychologists Association) apparently agrees with me on that point. They are literally killing us with the right wing rhetoric and hate mongering.

[Ladyhawk]

81. Fundamentalist schools are especially destructive, in my opinion.

I attended one, too.

In our lives, Jamastiene, we had NOT ONE FACET apart from fundamentalism. It pervaded every part of our experience: home, school, church...am I right? There was no getting away from it. Being steeped in such a destructive mind-set nearly killed both of us.

I've been suicidal, too, and I reach out to you now to tell you that you are OK the way you are. Being a lesbian is normal and it was horrible that the people around you made you feel guilty for something that isn't sinful, something that wasn't even your choice. Find someone who will love you and that you can love. What the hell is wrong with that?

I also apologize for drinking the Kool-Aid on this one. I was taught to hate gays. On two occasions, I hurt gay people with my obnoxious attitude. One is dead of AIDS now. I don't know where the other one is or even what he looks like. He was the father of my boyfriend. I pressured my boyfriend into shunning him because of his sexuality. How sick is that? More and more I am coming to believe that fundamentalism is an addiction and an illness. Once someone in infected, they usually stay infected.

Funny thing is, when I've been suicidal as a direct result of fundamentalism, fundamentalists tell me Jesus is the only way to feel better. Sorry. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. I tried it for most of my life. It didn't help then. Why should it help now, especially when it was the root cause of my self-loathing?

[FreedomAngel82]

83. I agree

I agree about the right and how they use hate. It only tears people down. If you don't agree with them they don't want anything to do with you and attack you personally. I've had this happen to me a few times. God loves you for who you are. Of course the radical right doesn't like that so they ignore a lot of Jesus' teachings on purpose.

[Ladyhawk]

79. LOL...when I read your phrase "raised by fundies" it reminds me of

a book title. You could write a book: "Raised by Fundies!" It's sort of like, "Raised by Wolves!"

[Beam Me Up]

123. Indeed, they seem like another species, alright.

I did not grow up with the feeling that I BELONG in the community of familiars into which I was born. Thus, in part, my "Beam Me Up"--I have always felt I'm not from PLANET OF THE FUNDIES who are seldom much fun at all.

I'm not a writer so couldn't do the book thing. However, I do know a movie producer who has encouraged me to write down some of the more peculiar incidences from my early life -- such as the time my dad used me for target practice w/ his 22 rifle -- such as the time the Baptist church BURNED TO THE GROUND on the day I was to be Baptised -- etc.

[Ladyhawk]

126. Woah. Between you, Jamastiene and me, we'd have one hellacious story! n/t

[seabeyond]

31. an x smoker has more venom than any non smoker

i have encounter. i dont hink it is healthy for you. i think it is beating yourself up. and that is never healthy. maybe it is easier i never bought into it. because though i disagree with them, i can still see the beauty. even though i see the damage they are doing i know they know no better. the have been culted. it is through ignorance. i am more pissed at the minister doing the conditioning

[Ladyhawk]

38. I don't know. I don't like being around smokers and I've never smoked. :)

Smoke and smoke residue makes me feel ill. I don't necessarily feel angry with smokers, but I stay away from them.

I'm still angry with the fundies. Their residue poisons me, too. For now, I need the anger to remind me that being around them poisons me. I've only been completely fundy-free since November. Maybe I need to cut myself some slack and realize that I need to go through a process to heal. Anger might be part of the process.

I only got out once today and saw an old car with "Bush" stickers all over it. It had the requisite Jesus fish, plus a Confederate flag. When I saw there were more Bush stickers than anything else, I knew whom the driver worshiped. Also, I don't think Jesus--if he existed--would have been all that thrilled by the Confederate flag sticker. My first thought was, "Quick, Robin...to the Retard-Mobile!" I then laughed out loud for a full minute. I don't know if acerbic humor is any better than anger, but it felt good.

[seabeyond]

44. ya well girl, just had a big to do with niece and my family

with the confederate flag. my nieces fatehr had one on his vehicle, she said she liked it. didnt want to bring a neg to her father, i am raising her right now, but later she asked what it meant. went thru how it is hurtful to blacks, and why wouldnt it be, and i am just not a believer of doing something to purposely hurt another. not my thing

father never a southern, he cant even use the excuse it is to honor his culture, not his culture

we are getting a lot of confederate flags around.

[FreedomAngel82]

84. I don't like smoke either

Blah. A few people on my dad's side of the family smoke (they're not fundies I don't think but definietly Bush supporters. One of my aunt's said she was ashamed of my Kerry bumper sticker, well too bad) and it's always been a trouble with me. My eyes get really watery and stuff. Blah. Now days when anybody wants to smoke at my grandma's they go outside. ;)

[The Doctor.]

37. I was a fundie for a couple of years...

I was so certain of the Rapture, I was looking for all the signs, I drove my friends nuts.

I was 17... I out grew that.

I realized that it was just another form of arrogance. Humble arrogance to be sure... but arrogance nonetheless.

I felt sorry for everyone else who was not saved.

Glad I grew up, guess some people can't or won't do that.

[Ladyhawk]

87. Big hugs, Dr_eldritch. I love your posts.

I am interested in your views as a true conservative whose party left him in the dust. You're still a registered Republican, right?

Truth to tell, that's sort of what happened to me, but I also moved to the left. I really hadn't been a "Republican" for many years when I finally officially changed affiliations. I also voted for the weed the first time around. Sigh. That's was stupid. I'm still angry at my own stupidity. I think this is part of the reason I feel angry with those who persist in their stupidity. I wonder why they can't see the obvious evil of this administration. I was politically asleep and even I caught on that shrub was up to no good with his planned invasion of Iraq. Two weeks after Powell's speech to the UN, I decided there were no WMDs based on evidence I gleaned from sources other than the corporate-controlled news media. I told others not to support this destructive war, but what right-wing fundy is going to listen to a liberal atheist? At that point, the only people I knew were fundies and one Ayn Rand Objectivist (my brother)--dogmatic right-wingers, all.

I'm glad you found your way out of the fundy sinkhole. And you're right. Fundies are arrogant, but in a passive-aggressive way.

Think how it must have been for those of us who grew up in a totally immersive fundamentalist environment. Think of how much harder it was to accept ourselves if we were gay, or started to suspect everything we had learned was a lie. Think of losing your entire world view and your friends in one fell swoop. When you reject the religion, the fundies only associate with you if they think they can win you back to the fold.

[The Doctor.]

100. Wow... Thanks. I'll always take a hug from a Ladyhawk...

Ever see the movie?

I must admit, I'm not a true conservative.
My parents are, but I believe that there are enough really good liberal ideas to consider myself a moderate.

I will always be a Republican however... and that does not mean blind loyalty to any who wear the mantle. I came to recognize that the saner members of each 'side' were identical... if the shoes were on the other foot - people would have said nearly the same exact things about their 'opponents' that were being said about them.

If Clinton were a 'Republican' (Which isn't too far a stretch), the self-proclaimed 'Republicans' would have been the ones to call Starr's investigation a 'witch hunt'.

I can honestly say, after bouncing around liberal and conservative boards alike, that I believe the Liberals would be nearly as critical of a 'Democratic President G W Bush' as they are now. That open introspection is the biggest weakness liberals have... they don't like to do or say anything if it's not the exact 'right' thing by a number of criteria.

It's kind of paralyzing really.

The neo-conservatives have no such compunction.

I was lucky that I questioned my religion early... by the age of 15. It was easier being a Protestant though. (That's right... I'm a WASP)
I spent a while philosophizing, then came across the Revelation set.
(I think the catalyst was this REALLY cute girl named Gina who 'recruited' me when I was a slave to my hormones.) I explored it for a while, believed in the prophecies whole-heartedly, and read my Bible almost every day.
It was not really any sort of an 'epiphany' that pulled me back to reality (my parents also thought I was nuts - they were Protestant after all...), it was just a growth process.

Now that I have had time to study and reflect on why it is people believe in the Rapture, The Great Tribulation, and Armageddon, I realize that this meme has tapped into some very basic human psychology.

One is the fear of death.
The uncertainty of after death.
The need to be certain and secure.

Most religions deal with the last two. But the new interpretation of Revelations gets a firm hold of the human survival instinct.
That instinct is so strong, that any religion that promises you don't have to die is a winner.

I believe only the Australian Aboriginies and Buddhists come close to that notion... but without all that really cool self-importance stuff.

So I've learned a few questions to short-circuit the fundie reasoning.

The first is the one I asked myself when I was 15;

"If there are so many different religions in the world, and every single one claims it's the only one that is right... how do I know for sure that mine is the only 'right' one?"

The second is;

"Why are you better than me?"
- This one must be followed up with a rundown to get them to admit that they really do believe they are better than I am... it's not difficult.

The last is; "Do you want the world to end and everyone to die?"
Followed by a rundown which can sometimes be complicated... but will always get them to think. (until they realize they are thinking and have to shut off those parts again.)

Sorry, I'm so arrogant I've gone and written your eyes out, but I've always love reading your posts and can see that you have a bit of experience.

Always feel free to tell me stuff.

(Careful - I might print out my life story, it's also available on VHS and DVD)

:smile:

[RevCheesehead]

39. Your anger is a natural reaction to having been spiritually abused.

I take spiritual abuse very, very seriously. I have experienced it, even while serving as a pastor, in the very churches I was sent to serve. I have been spiritually abused by other pastors as well.

As part of my healing, I have done a lot of reading on the subject (and have book recommendations, if you want them). I certainly don't blame you for your anger - so why do you blame yourself?

Spiritual abuse is especially dangerous, because of the level of trust that people place in their spiritual leaders. They often defer to "pastoral authority" or "biblical authority," because it would be considered evil to disagree with them. People who speak out, or go against the system, are labeled as "the evil personified" within the system, the literal "scape-goat," upon whom the sins of the community are laid. Of course, the scape-goat is driven out of the community. Then they begin to look for another one to take its place.

Just one other thought: When Mel White (of the Metropolitan Churches) came out, he also rejected his fundamentalist roots. (He was, at one time, a "ghost writer" for Jerry Falwell!) When he came to realize that his being gay was not a sin, he found a way to reclaim his faith, not only for himself, but also for the thousands of other hurting gay, lesbian, bi, and trans-gendered Christians who have been treated horribly "in the name of God." His biography is a fascinating read, and you might hear some echoes in his feelings of anger and betrayal by the fundies who claimed to "love" him.

please note: I am not suggesting that you re-claim anything, nor would I even dream of telling you what to do. As to your question, "if I learn not to be angry with myself for being a fundy, will it help me deal with fundies?" - I think you already know the answer to that.

Peace to you.

[Ladyhawk]

95. Thanks, RevCheesehead.

Unfortunately, I've dealt with this anger for a long time. Each time a fundy did something hurtful, I would try to forgive him or her and move on, but all it did was make me angrier. Since November I've removed fundies from my personal life, some completely, others relegated to a lower level of "friendship," whereby they don't learn anything that can be used as a weapon against me.

OK, so I'm hoping this is one last "anger-hurrah" and that I will be less angry once I get over all the feelings of betrayal and learn to stay the hell away from these people. I need to find my place to a productive anger that helps me act, but act in a responsible way.

I really do think fundamentalists are dangerous on a personal level, to our country and to the entire world. Realizing this truth has introduced a low-throbbing fear as I see them become bolder and bolder in their attempt to control the Republican Party, and thereby, the entire nation. Dammit, it's our country, too! Why should we be marginalized and forced into their narrow mindset?

I can understand Mel White's anger. He sounds like the David Brock of fundamentalism. I've read the testimonials of a lot of ex-fundies and usually, the anger is palpable. The only exception I can think of is Dan Barker, who tried to remain on good terms with everyone and succeeded in turning his parents away from fundamentalism. He must be a remarkably persuasive person. I don't know anyone else who has managed to sway parents and friends. The usual story is that the person who rejects fundamentalism is ostracized in some way by family and friends.

I appreciate your candor and now that I have pledged to support liberal Christians, I know that I will not tell you that the only path to truth is strict atheism. As I said in another thread, many paths can lead to the same destination.

[RevCheesehead]

112. Fundamentalism is an inherently dysfunctional system.

It focuses almost exclusively on the "persecutor/victim/rescuer" model, and it flounders around helplessly in times of peace.

Classic example: Jerry Falwell. The man cannot function as a pastor unless he has someone or something to hate. That is because his entire theological system is dysfunctional.

EVIL = persecutor (and it takes many forms)
WE = victims (of course, only those who agree with them are "true Christians")
GOD/JESUS = rescuer.

But there's no stopping the triangulation. The problem is that GOD (our "Father") expects US to rescue the WORLD from this EVIL. So the triangle continues....

My suggestion about "healing" was for emotional, rather than religious purposes (or for counseling/therapy, rather than any kind of spiritual rebirth). I'm a big supporter of "family-systems" therapy (it did wonders for me), and there are many qualified counselors who will respect your atheism and not try to heal or fix you spiritually, or force you back to Jesus.

I am glad that you got out of this hate-filled system. Let me just add that I am so sorry that you have gone through all of this. You are too valuable a person to have been treated so horribly; and the fact that it was done in the name of Jesus is very, very painful for me, because that is not the Jesus I know.

Again, peace to you, and thanks for the open conversation.

[neebob]

42. I have a similar problem, only it started with Mormonism

and I never actually became one but just had it briefly forced upon me as a teenager. I blew it off at 20 and never gave it much thought until a couple years ago, when I read Under the Banner of Heaven and realized it was a cult and I'd been programmed and some residual effects were still with me.

Meanwhile, my parents - despite having reverted to Jack Mormonism - had become stark raving lunatic wingnuts. My dad had recently died when I realized he'd dragged us all into a cult on top of being a tyrant. My mom and I did nothing but argue for about a year and a half after he died, until I basically said uncle, accepted the fact that I can't talk to her about 99 out of 100 things, and concluded that I'm on my own in dealing with the crap feelings that follow me around like a cloud.

Mom has only gotten worse - so much so that I can barely stand to talk to her about the "safe" topics. There are two: animals and the weather. Everything else has some hidden tie-in to one of her insane religious, political, or social beliefs. If you didn't know she was Mormon, you'd expect to see her out in front of the hospice, freaking out over Terri Schiavo. She would have fit right in.

I consider my parents fundamentalists and am angry at both of them - especially my mom, because she wasn't raised Mormon - for allowing themselves to be brainwashed and for wasting all their time and energy feeding me a bunch of nonsensical lies instead of teaching useful, practical skills and tools for life in the real world.

So I hear ya. I don't like fundamentalists, either, but to me it's more because they're hypocrites and idiots in their own right and is not necessarily related to my own experience. I just don't like them, and I see nothing wrong with that.

I don't feel responsible, either, for anything I did before I realized I'd been scammed. And I figure if I'm smart enough to figure it out, I have the right to expect others of similar intelligence to do the same and think less of them if they don't.

So like when were you brainwashed, Ladyhawk, and by whom?

[neebob]

70. I just want to clarify my point, which is

that you were brainwashed and are taking too much responsibility for it, especially if it happened at an early age.

Perhaps, like me, you have a guilt complex. That's the phrase that comes closest to describing those "crap feelings that follow me around like a cloud." And while I may have trouble describing and dealing with them, I'm very clear on how I got them: from a mood-disordered father who followed a 19th-century parenting model and a weak mother who put all her eggs in the man basket and spent all her time trying to correct the person who was easiest to correct (me). Together, they joined an oppressive, authoritarian cult and cemented the whole guilty crap cloud deal.

Now that I'm aware of it, I don't feel responsible for anything but making it go away.

[Ladyhawk]

98. Your situation sounds similar to mine.

I had an abusive tyrant of a father and a mother who believed she had to obey him because that's what it said in the bible. He wouldn't let my mother do anything unless she adhered to a strict schedule. Behind his back, my mother disparaged my father, but now she gets pissed when I say he was abusive. "No!" she exclaims. "Your father was a good man!"

My father controlled my mother and my brother and me. My mother controlled my brother and me. As the younger, I had no one to control except the pets. :)

So, I got it from both ends: a strict and abusive father and a controlling, passive-aggressive mother. Steep that heavily in a rigid, fundamentalist religion and you get someone who has a guilt complex and a bunch of other issues.

Now those are my issues to address. I can understand how they came about and lay blame where it is due, but I have to go beyond that to some kind of healing. I've worked hard on it, but it sometimes seems so elusive.

[neebob]

119. That is quite similar

except that religion played a lesser role with me. One of the things I struggle with is how bad it really was vs. the level of crap feelings I have.

I used to think they were just the normal way to feel. I might not have become aware of them at all, if not for a ruinous relationship with a psychopath I met on the internet. I wrote a book about that and came pretty close to getting it published three years ago. Then I recognized my dad's hand in my relationship history, and then he died, and I got into it with my mom, and it morphed into this big unresolvable thing.

I need to rewrite the end of my book, but I struggle with how much and what to say because my mom is still alive and in a dozen different kinds of denial, and I've added enough to her grief. Plus I want to end on a positive note, not pinning everything on parents who had good intentions and weren't entirely bad. But the bottom-line answer to why I let the psychopath stay for two years lies in how I was raised, so I need to talk about my parents. I feel the need to resolve those issues before I rewrite the ending and try to publish the book again.

I have ordered some books: If You Had Controlling Parents, Cutting Loose, and The Wounded Woman. I can't remember the subtitles. I'm hoping these will help me figure things out. I also ordered Predators, Prey, and Other Kinfolk: Growing Up in Polygamy by Dorothy Solomon, mostly just to see how she structured her memoir. I'm always checking out other people's memoirs. You might find Solomon's book helpful, too, and I'm sure there are other memoirs of religious childhood oppression.

[Ladyhawk]

96. I had a lifetime of brainwashing that included...

...church, home AND school. I never got away from it until I went to college and I fought new ideas with every ounce of my being. It was a wonder any of it sank in.

Um, the book will be coming "soon." :) Seriously, I intend to write a book.

[tblue37]

45. Have you all seen the movie

Saved?

It is a clever, wicked skewering of the whole hypocritical, sanctimonious fundie thing--sort of a Mean Chistians, as in the movie Mean Girls.

[FreedomAngel82]

85. I've heard of it

and seen a preview. It looks pretty funny and poking fun at the fundies. Mandy Moore is in it and Maculaly Culkin. I've been wanting to check it out.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. I have never been a repuke and I detest the very ground they walk on.

Look at what they have done to our country and what they WANT to do. There is NOTHING to like in those people. NOTHING. They represent everything I hate. Greed, no compassion, self centeredness, anti-choice, bigoted, religious ZEALOTRY, IGNORANT, they think they're always right and they don't care that they are destroying this country. I HATE them with a passion.

I always hope one of them will make a snarky remark about my anti-chimp, anti-war, anti-theocracy bumper stickers and no one ever has. I'm loaded for bear if they do. I can't wait for the day to unload on one of those assholes. :grr:

I would just tell your fundie friends to keep their religion to themselves and stop shoving it down your throat. That usually shuts 'em up.

[Jamastiene]

48. For those of us who

have contact on a daily basis with fundies, the anger is the only thing that protects us form them and gives us protection from their brand of "morality", which isn't really moral. If we are trying to protect our own morality, we HAVE to get angry with them.

And for those of you with no direct day to day contact with fundies, who may take this the wrong way, please hear this. There are those of us who simply try to ask them not to proselytize only to meet real violence. I had a fundy pick up a shovel and back me up against a brick building and try to kill me by pushing that shovel into my neck enough to cut off my breathing until someone stopped her back in the 80's simply because when she said Prince was the antichrist and a devil worshipper because he used backwards masking on the Purple Rain soundtrack, I tried to point out to her what he really said. Simple as that. I was going to tell her is was really a pro Christian message when you played it backwards. She tried to kill me for THAT. Next, I got raped simply because my boss found out I had said I was a lesbian and word got around. She took it upon herself to take me to a block building and goad a man into raping me chanting things like "All that lesbians needs is the right man and the love of God and she'll be straight".

I could care less about whether someone else thinks I should let go of the anger at this point. Until the day comes when I have saved up enough money and gotten enough of an education to get out of the Bible Belt, I will hold on to that anger and my paranoia. If I can get away from the overwhelming dominant majority of the people around me being fundies, the anger would subside. I know it. I don't just believe it. The anger comes from being fed up with that bullshit mentality and not being able to get away from it.

[Mr_Spock]

65. Wow, truly amazing. Thanks for posting!

I feel for you - I can't believe the horrors that have been put upon you by the fundamentalist savages. I hope and pray that you can escape that environment soon - nobody should have to live with such awful people, nobody! :cry:

[Jamastiene]

132. Thank you

Although, I have my issues with what I see as a God who won't help me out of here, I appreciate when people offer to pray that I can escape this horror story that has been my life up until this point. I really desparately need some positive, kind people, who encourage me not to give up, around me in my real life for a change. I talk to quite a few Christians on DU and would like to see if there is an "alternate" God who doesn't hate and maybe would help me get to a point financially that I can afford to start over somewhere nice and begin to truly build a good life. I can never have it where I live as long as all my experiences here are bad and lead me back to square one again. It's like something is keeping me from a path to a hopeful life. I want that to stop. I haven't found it yet.

It looks like I am going to have to figure out how to do it all by myself and fight the negative influence and their impact on my state of mind all at the same time. I haven't even been able to find a way around the negativity by my own family yet. As long as I am unable to hold down a job or get disability for what several phycologists have said is a pretty devastating diagnosis on my mental state, I'll be repeating this vicious hate filled cycle for the rest of my life. Right now, I am in college trying to get a degree, serving as a care giver for an aunt (she's not a fundy like the rest of them) who is a veteran and has multiple sclerosis and cannot walk, cannot do simple things like opening a can with the can opener, lost her home (and mine) 2 years ago, and the rest of the family hates her and will not take care of her. As it stands right now, starting in the summer I will be going to school full time, which is 8 hours a day (have been going 3/4 time for the last year and a half), taking care of paying all the bills, cooking and the other household chores like mowing, taking care of the maintanence on the car and the place we live, taking care of my aunt, working odd jobs to supplement my aunt's monthly disability, and trying to get a part time job to try to gain experience so I won't be totally devastated financially if anything happens to my aunt ( I have had to leave the last several jobs I tried to keep to keep her from hurting herself trying to get around). My family says I am lazy and sorry because I say my back hurts every now and again and I don't work 8 hours a day, go to school 8 hours a day and do all the other stuff around the house and take care of my aunt at the same time with very little to no help from them. Every time I start to make progress with my self esteem and try to muster the energy to take all this responsibility on plus work on getting a decent education, my family does something else to bust my self esteem back down to the self loathing state where I lose what little physical steam I managed to muster. If you want more specifics, I'll be more than happy to share them. One thing no one can say about me is that I have any secrets. WYSIWYG.

Again, I do appreciate that you offered to pray. My prayers seem to fall on deaf ears when I try it and I have to admit, I have given up on hoping for results from my own prayers. I can't help it. There is still so much pain associated with prayer and I can honestly say I think spiritually, I have reached a point where giving up on prayer is the only way out for me. I wish someone could explain why it is that when others pray for me, it works, and things get better and look more hopeful. Yet, when I pray, things don't get better, but actually worse. Maybe no one knows the answer. I sure don't, but it does seem to be true.

[knitter4democracy]

91. Oh, my God! I had heard of stuff like that, and I always wondered

if it were true. I went to an evangelical college, and I was pretty sure that GLBT students were getting molested, raped, and constantly hounded. The men definitely were, as I had a friend tell me of what he saw. I had a few lesbian friends, and only one actually was able to graduate--so much for protecting students. She came out toward the end of her senior year, and she was in student teaching off campus, or it would've been worse. The college actually forced her to come out to all of her friends, including me, supposedly to protect her. I mean, come on!

I am so sorry you have been hurt so badly by those crazy people. I am so sad that anyone would ever use a peace-based faith like Christianity to hurt anyone, even though I know it happens every freakin' day. Jesus must be madder than hell by now. I'm not so sure they want the Second Coming as much as they say they do.

[Ladyhawk]

101. ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Jamastiene )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I am so sorry for what you had to go through. Wow. There are no words. I hope someday you can find healing. Until then, I can see why you hang onto anger for self-protection.

"Bible Belt" areas are difficult places for those of us who have rejected the fundamentalist mindset. I consider my hometown to be rather fundy-infested. It may not be as bad as certain areas in the true Bible Belt, but it certainly doesn't make me feel at home.

If we can get away from the fundies, the anger should lessen.

Geez, Jamastiene. You should write a book, too.

[Jamastiene]

131. I would love nothing more than to do just that...

Write a book. I'd much rather co-author a book to bounce ideas for structure and the whole two heads are better than one idea. What would be the most interesting book to me would be if a group of survivors of fundamentalism got together and told their stories and asked some serious questions about religion and why in some cases absolute hatred is protected by law. It would be great if the book was segmented and written like a crime documentary or drama. That would be movie worthy in a couple of years. I can picture the finished product winning all kinds of awards if we could get just one or two liberal Christians to help us out on it and to add their commentary about the destructive influences militant fundamentalist extremism. They could call out in the book to other liberal Christians to add input on how to fight back against some sects of Christianity that have damaged so many people in such a devastating way. Please PM me on the idea more. I'd love to discuss it. I haven't a clue how to get a book published or how to finish one, but would love to be able to do so. And you have no idea how good your suggestion made me feel. I haven't received a compliment that nice from anyone in my "real" life, ever.

[thinkingwoman]

50. Forgive yourself

You've learned and moved on. Stop beating yourself up.

As for fundies--I detest them too. They bring out the worst in me, so I stay as far away from them as possible.

[R. A. Fuqua]

54. hey don't beat yourself up.

the religion I was raised in makes fundies look good--it was a pseudo Chirsitan cult that aped fundy beliefs (in a very hollow way) and was so low they actually aspired to be as respected as the fundamentalists.

I have ZERO respect for the religion I was raised in. And the leaders are 100% liars, crooks and con-men.

However--I do feel for some of the people in it. (my dearly beloved sister is still a member--and probably will be all her life--and she is a sweet, dear person who I will always love very much).

Just think--some of the people were raised in it (like me) and they don't know any better. Some are vulnerable people who are suckered into it, and some are people who see the flaws--but don't have the strength to leave because their friends and family are there. Yes--some are the lowest--but some are people like you and me--people who would be happy if they could get free--those people I wish no ill too-instead I only hope that they will someday be freed from that bondage.

It took me years to get over the worst of the anger and hatred that I felt toward that cult. I still feel it sometimes--and it still hurts me occasionally. YES religious systems can be horribly abusive. But--the good news is that the longer you are out of the abusive religion, the better life gets. Trust me. The only thing that I would do differently if I could do it over would be getting away from them sooner.

Anger with them is part of the healing process.

Lots of love and hugs to you.

[Mabel Dodge]

55. I grew up in an alcoholic home

From what I'm reading on this thread a fundamentalist home must be just as dysfunctional. If that's true, I can share what I did to get over the anger and the trauma.

I spent as much time as possible in therapy. I started in college with the student health counseling program and continued with free community mental health programs when I was one of the working poor and still today at the age of 50 with benefits from my employer.

After my parents passed (I was the good kid who took care of them), I refused to have anything to do with my siblings. They have never dealt with their issues and they're toxic to me.

Now I'm free from the emotional pain and hurt of the past. It took a lot of work but I've arrived. I can think of my parents with love and even smile about some of the good times. I don't get emotional about my childhood, I don't cry at the drop of the hat and I don't blame or hate myself anymore.

Finally, I have good people in my life. They aren't perfect but they don't need to be. We support each other with love and understanding and accept each others flaws.

This is what I’ve experienced and I hope it helps you. Good luck with your struggles.

[Ladyhawk]

117. In her book, Leaving the Fold, Marlene Winell equates adult children

of fundamentalists with adult children of alcoholics. The issues we face are very similar.

[mhr]

58. Hey LadyHawk - I'll Be Your Friend - I Have Nothing But Respect For

Ex-Fundies.

That someone can finally see the light gives a morsel of hope that others might be weened from the teat of irrationality.

[rucky]

59. Forgive yourself...then MOVE ON

you don't need to win over a fundie to prove your worth. that's the fundie's game. let the fundies be fundies and you be you and as long as you're happy with yourself then who gives a crap what they think.

[DistressedAmerican]

60. I'll Be Angry Until They Leave ME The Fuck Alone.

I do not seeks these folks out to prostelitize them! I do not try to enshrine my beliefs as law!

You should be mad. We all should be flaming pissed off. We have every right, ney, obligation to be irrate. If more of us were, we might see some change!

[Crunchy Frog]

61. I don't think you should be angry at yourself for having been a fundie.

You couldn't have done anything about the family situation you were born into. You had no choice in that, therefore, you really don't have anything to blame yourself for.

I am very impressed with you for having been able to break out of fundamentalism. That is no small accomplishment and I think you should take some real pride in it.

Of course I'm angry at the fundies. For the most part I'm angry at the charletans who paint themselves as Christians and manipulate people for the sake of money and political power. I'm also angry at people who let themselves be manipulated and who choose not to think for themselves. I understand that the process of breaking away from fundamentalism is a very difficult one.

At this stage I think that the fundies are beyond any kind of reconciliation with. They want to create a theocracy in this country and they must be opposed by anyone who places any value on the principles this country was founded on.

That doesn't mean that you can't reach a point of reconciliation with yourself. I hope you will reach a point at which you can forgive yourself, although I really don't think there's anything to forgive, as you are not responsible for the circumstances of your birth.

[toddaa]

62. Stop torturing yourself

You have nothing in common with these people so why associate with them. Like you, I came out of a fundamentalist background. It was hard at first, because I lost a lot of close friends. But then I realized that the basis for our friendship was our shared religious belief. Once I no longer shared their belief, I no longer had them as friends. That's how fundamentalism works. Stop fighting it and just go find some new friends before you anger consumes you.

[Mr_Spock]

64. "toxic, garbage-filled cesspool of irrational beliefs" - thanks, beautiful

I haven't felt so hopeful in a long time. Thanks for the joyous ray of sunshine in this current horrible time dominated by angry bigoted fundamentalist "people". I truly believe that on some deep dark level these people feel somehow slighted by the Muslim fundies dominating the headlines and are trying to compete with them - like a fundyfest! I can't feel bad about criticizing fundies - I believe they are neither good people nor truly Christian. In their eyes, I am a heretic - in my eyes, they are pure evil - or the ultimate heretics.

[lonestarnot]

67. Hate 'em and all they stand for! and can end this sentence in a

preposition!

[LearnedHand]

68. Resoning with them is probably not the important part

Ladyhawk, it doesn't matter about them. They are responsible for their own world views. But the anger is important to deal with simply because it hurts you. How do I know? I'm right there with you.

Twenty-three years. That's how long ago I extricated myself from one of these fundy cults. Twenty-three years. That's how long I've been trying to deal with my own anger. And in the last 10 years, it's gotten harder and harder because these people are ascendant in our culture and getting more powerful every day.

Unless a person has been part of this world, it's really hard to understand how dangerous and powerful the ideas of the fundy world are. And because the ideas are dangerous and powerful, so are the people who hold them. I've been saying for years that I'm scared of these people and that they intend to do incredibly scary things to our democracy, and I've been shushed and there-there'd to death. I wish I had been way wrong about them.

Nevertheless, there's the anger you and I (and others like us) have deep in our DNA, and that anger is rubbed raw with new salt every single day. I have no answers other than that it's a daily, hourly, minutely (?) journey away from that anger. Every time it rises in me, I tell myself that I'm willing to find forgiveness. I force myself to think of something else. I search my soul for a tiny shred of lovingkindness to send the way of the people who have done so much harm.

If I do not rid myself of this anger and fear, then they win. I know that as long as I have the anger and fear, I'm still in their clutches and I'm not truly free.

I could give a rat's ass about whether they ever "see the light" (well, maybe a bit more than a rat's ass) because I have no solid footing on which to stand in trying to convince them of their wrongheadedness. I avoid religious discussions at all costs; if someone begins with that salvation stuff, I excuse myself from the conversation. I don't have to convince them of anything, especially not that my journey is a valid one. I just have to avoid that toxicity.

I fortunately live in a part of the country where evangelism simply isn't a big part of the culture. But when I still lived in the South, I felt beseiged every single day of my life. That's a huge part of why I left. The people I know at work now who are fundies are truly nice, mostly loving people. I simply avoid getting myself into a situation where the conversation can go that way. If I do happen to be trapped, I simply nod my head, say a few "that's interesting's," and get out as quickly as possible.

And I have a comeback stored in long-term memory just in case I get trapped by one of the zealots:

zealot: "You're going to hell because you haven't accepted Jesus."

me: "Where are you going when you die?"

zealot: "Heaven, of course. I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior... (blah, blah, blah)."

me: "Oh, thank god. At least I won't be where YOU are."

[Ladyhawk]

106. Wow! Thanks for sharing, LearnedHand.

For those of you who were not raised in a fundy cult, hear LearnedHand:

"Unless a person has been part of this world, it's really hard to understand how dangerous and powerful the ideas of the fundy world are."

It's also hard to understand the anger of those who have left the fold and how hard it has been to extricate ourselves from the cult. Each person's path to wellness is different. I've found that things that worked for others do not work for me. And Jamastiene has found that things that (sometimes) work for me don't work for her. :)

Suggestions are great. In fact, I often try what has worked for others to see if helps me. But we all need to be careful not to demand that others accept our way of doing things. I'm not saying this in response to your post, LearnedHand, but as a way of reminding myself that I don't hold all the answers.

And you are so right! Salt is rubbed into the wound on a nearly daily basis. I dread going out because everywhere I go I run into fundies having their fundy conversations. I overhear them. I don't want to overhear them; it just happens. I can't go anywhere in this town without hearing the words "church," "god," or "Jesus." It's disheartening. Just last week, I overheard a fundy doctor, his patient and possibly his receptionist conspiring to convert another person. I wanted to run out there and tell them to leave the poor guy alone! A few days ago some Mormons showed up at my door. I'm always tempted to tell them I'm a Satanist.

Why can't they leave us alone??????? Because it's not in their nature to leave us alone and because their god told them to "go out into all the world and preach the gospel." Who are we to compete with that. :(

Maybe lowering the level of anger is a daily process, but I'm not so thrilled with the path the country is taking. I escaped fundamentalism only to see fundamentalism nearly attain its goal of dominance over the nation. :(

The anger is a sign something is wrong. It's a sign that something needs to be changed. I need to listen to it to discover what to do.

[LearnedHand]

69. Nominated for "Greatest"

n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

82. I saw Lyndon Larouche talking about this on TV

As much as this guy is kinda nuts, he bashes chimp like none other. He basically said, "Those people who voted for Bush in Ohio because of religious reasons are assholes. They are willing to let their country be destroyed because of a false sense of security that they get from their religion."

I haven't lost hope on all deeply religious people because I think that we can still appeal to them if we do it right.

[FreedomAngel82]

88. Exactly

I'm listening to Laura Flanders and she's talking about farming and also on why Bush keeps winning even though he has poor raitings. Basically Bush uses the simple talk and religion and people eat it up. They can be dirt poor but will still vote for the right because they throw out a few little Bible quotes and pick and choose what they want.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

103. Why defend hypocrites?

That's what they are.

[scarletwoman]

107. Dear Ladyhawk, I hope you'll see this...

It may help to understand that anger is actually a secondary emotion. The primary emotion that anger arises out of (and often masks) is fear. Fear arises out of feeling one's survival threatened in some way.

The perceived threat to survival is not just about physical survival, it often has to do with one's sense of self -- ego or identity -- and also, at a much deeper level, one's spirit -- which is also capable of perceiving a threat to its survival, even if your conscious mind is not aware of it.

Your own strong spirit freed you from a terribly destructive and soul-destroying path, yet it is natural -- especially since this apparently happened not all that long ago -- that your sense of self, your sense of identity still feels fragile and not completely re-formed into your new life away from the destructive path.

In order to free yourself from the fundy paradigm in which you were brought up, you had to go through a process of dis-integration. That is, you had to unravel your old sense of identity and embark upon the difficult journey of re-forming into a new identity.

A new sense of self is not formed overnight -- you are a butterfly newly emerged from a cocoon. Before the butterfly is ready for flight, she must stay in place and fan her wings to dry them. It is a time of rebalancing -- of transition from the old state of being to the new.

It is natural to feel fear. Understand that it is fear which lies beneath your anger -- fear that *they* might still have power over you, that *they* might try to destroy your newly emerged butterfly spirit.

(Side note: The Greek word, "psyche" means both "soul" and "butterfly".)

Now, once you've recognized that fear is the true underlying emotion and that your anger is a secondary emotion, you are better equipped (knowledge is POWER!) to move beyond the anger.

The fundies have no power over you. You, newly emerged beautiful butterfly spirit, do not ALLOW them to have power over you! Release your fear and release your anger. They are nothing, they are the dried mud that you dust off your boots as you set out on your splendid new journey.

Peace,
sw

[walldude]

124. Your statement reminds me of a wise old

um... person. Yoda. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to.... suffering".

However, while the fundies may not yet have the power they seek, it isn't for a lack of trying:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=20746&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

"Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost," Kennedy says. "As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."

While I don't think we need to fear them we do need to fight them or they will control us.

[scarletwoman]

125. Well, I'm not QUITE as old as Yoda...

Interestingly, the Yoda quote you posted is very much in line with Buddhist philosophy, which is my own background as well.

And, funny thing -- my youngest son used to call me "Yoda Mom" when he was growing up... ;-)

sw

[understandinglife]

109. Focus that anger on MNA day, May 2 2005.....

...and think of all the ways you can stop Bu$h and his theocratic neoconsters from killing the next Iraqi child, starving the next American child, ...........


www.missionnotaccomplished.us (a day to reflect, repair and prepare for what We The People are going to do to save our America and return to being trusting, loving partners with our fellow humans: anywhere, all the time)

[spooky3]

110. Have you read Losing Faith in Faith by Dan Barker?

He is a former fundy preacher who is now affiliated with the Freedom from Religion foundation (www.ffrf.org if you want to get his book).

[Ladyhawk]

128. Yes, it's a great book! It totally trashes fundy beliefs with unrelenting

reason. Good stuff!

[sweetheart]

120. Because like "the alien", they've implanted themselves in to us

Inside your belly is fundy spawn, as it is a state of mind, that life
needs to be fixed, improved, bettered; that something need be done and
that you're life has a purpose to be part of this.

You can divorce it, and say that you'll improve and better the opposition
like here on DU, but still, the implant is active. Rejecting the
fundies and their neocolonial prodestant ethics is a deep phenomena,
as in our very culture of "arbeit mach frei", we are trained to do
good works, to be good christian soldiers and by our works become closer
to god.

Yet, what is this work? It is that of the slave making the plantation
clean and profitable, that it might employ more slaves. Then, we can
be "grumbling" slaves, angry ones, but nevertheless, there is a trace
of slavery as long as we are taxed and burdened with this white man's
military empire.

So then, perhaps meeting the anger, is accepting that we are much more
closely indoctrinated, at deeper levels, from propaganda since birth,
to live in a fundie-society, one we support with every tax dollar,
and the chains of the slavers cannot be cut off, except in the deepest
recesses of one's heart.

There, the cry for freedom is louder than ever, a cry that can only
be satisfied by accepting slavery as our lot, and seeing all of the
acts of our lives as the folly of fixing unbroken life and legislating
what is already there in our hearts.

Then we make a bonfire and in to it cast our resume, all our
relationships based on enslavement, our victories as great slaves and
our wishes to be enslaved at a better salary, in a better flat, with
a private jet... but slaves. And as we stand immolated in the
fire of egotism, without action, without intent, silent in the
light, is freedom present without effort and without self.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

136. we should be angry. they take pride in calling us immoral.

and i for one dont take that lightly