How do you handle the abortion issue?

[FreedomAngel82]

How do you handle it with fundies? I've tried but I keep going around and around and they never listen to anything I say, so I'd appreciate some help for the future on what you'd tell them.

[Webster Green]

1. I tell 'em to mind their own fucking business....

Same thing I tell the homophobes.

[FreedomAngel82]

4. Tried that

I've tried that a few times and told them to stay out of my bedroom but still they keep going on with the Bible talk. I've tried telling not everybody believes like they do but they keep repeating the same stuff. :crazy: Then I get frustrated and stuff.

[CO Liberal]

2. I Follow The Feminists' Rule Concerning Abortion

"One penis - no vote."

No man has the right to tell ANY woman what she can do with her body.

[KarenS]

29. ThankYou!!

I truly appreciate your attitude on this issue, it gives me hope.




:thumbsup:

[elfin]

3. We were created

with the machinery and the urges to procreate the species and the free will and reason to manage the same. Some do this with religious proscriptions, others do it with medical prescriptions and procedures.

[FreedomAngel82]

5. I've tried all that

*sigh* Not the penis thing though. LOL. I'll keep that in mind. But it's just frustrating with these people. :mad:

[WillowTree]

6. It's a futile argument.

I don't waste my time.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. I've tried

but I keep banging my head against the wall. :banghead:

[WillowTree]

18. Then stop!

You're not going to change their minds and they're not going to change yours. What's the point of discussing it with those people at all?

[Just Me]

8. Like religion,...it's a private matter.

I simply say, "Do you want me to impose my personal judgment about your personal life?" Usually, I get an "abortion is murder" response and I respond, "so is war, except war is mass murder for purposes of revenge, control or greed,...at least abortion only involves maintaining some control over one life, the life of a woman."

[FreedomAngel82]

9. Tried that

And they come back with some Biblical thing. Someone keeps asking why is murder illegal and other things.

[Just Me]

23. Maybe,...it's a matter of tone?

I've only had one person insist upon the same message. Everyone else has responded with either quiet consideration or "you have a point".

However, I've never used a "tone" outside the desire of human contact with others (except those who obviously have no interest in such things,...and with whom I have the pleasure of rarely ever encountering *LOL*).

[NAO]

10. I ask them if I should send the bill for welfare to their church

for those fetuses brought to term that are going to need food, clothing and shelter, plus money for college.

I ask them why they are so anxious to protect the fetuses before they are born, but so opposed to providing for them after they are born.

I have always supported the Catholic Churche's opposition to birth control - as long as we can send the bill to the Vatican, at cost plus 10% for administrative overhead. I think the gold and treasures at the Vatican would go pretty fast and that "vow of poverty" business would quickly become a reality for The Church if they had to put their money where their mouth is on the birth control issue.

[FreedomAngel82]

11. I've asked that

I've asked why they're not for better health care, education, enivornment etc. Nobody answered my question. They just kept coming with me with Biblical stuff and I kept telling how other people don't believe like they do and what they think is moral someone else might not.

[classof56]

20. Here's my thought...

Once a child is born, that little soul is destined for heaven or hell. The "age of accountability" is five or ten or 12, it varies among fundies, but the bottom line is, unless that little soul has accepted Christ as Saviour, the person is destined for eternity in hell. That makes it all the more incumbent upon fundies to ensure that each and every person has heard the gospel and had the opportunity to acknowledge his/her sins, repent and be born again. Now, personally, I don't know what happens to aborted fetuses, but I do know what, according to fundamentalist beliefs, happens to unsaved souls. Christians really do need to be focusing on the state of those already born, spreading Christ's message and bringing souls to him. Maybe you could try impressing upon those you talk with how critical it is to focus on Jesus' mission to bring lost souls to him and thus ensuring their salvation and eternal life in his presence. It's clear they don't much care what happens to children once they're born in the material sense but in the spiritual sense, these folks should care very, very much. That's what Christ's life, his death and his earthly message of love and compassion is all about.

If they can't latch onto that, then I figure they're simply hopeless. Sounds like you might be thinking that already.

Blessings!

[Maru Kitteh]

36. There's the problem right there then! You are letting them get away with

it. Insist that they answer your questions. One by one, MAKE them answer your questions. When they start spouting more "biblical nonsense" calmly point out to them that they still have not answered your question. Do this over and over and over and over and over as many times as it takes.

P.S. usually what these people spout has little or nothing to do with the bible at all - but is instead the parroted political rantings of their preferred brimstone breather.

[saltpoint]

12. When the Far Right wants to discuss easy access to --

-- birth control technologies and birth control counseling and (P)lanned (P)arenthood, and health care for pregnant adolescents, and condom distribution, and comprehensive sex education in schools;

When some very conservative families stop blaming their daughters for becoming pregnant before marriage and halt the practice of sending them away to some distant relative's house so as not to bring "shame" on the family;

When nutcases like Anita Bryant and many others begin acknowledging that there is more than one type of way for human beings to express affection, tenderness, love and pleasure;

When K-Mart and WalMart and other retailers stop locking condoms and other reproductive products behind a plexiglass case & requiring permission to open to purchase the products;

When consent laws are re-drawn to completely ensure privacy, meaning most of them thrown out altogether if necessary;

When the Right agrees to support comprehensive life-affirming programs across the spectrum of society and stops trying to shove their goddam fundamentalist crap down people's throats;

and

When the Right stops putting fake abortion counseling agencies up to drive home the guilt of young women for their pregnancies,

THEN I will listen to their point of view on pro-life.

[FreedomAngel82]

14. Right

I don't know why I keep aruging with them. I guess I don't want to let them get away with their ignorant self.

[seabeyond]

13. i have had conversation with catholic, never a fundie

yes it is a round and round. i tell them, i dont believe in abortion, and i havent/wont get one. but because i dont believe in it, i do not get to pass a law demanded others follow my belief. if god allows free will we as man must,. and we have to work thru strong family values and taking care of our children, build their self confidence with a foundation to allow them to have the strength to do what is needed not to find themselves in that situation. but beyond that, it is not our decision, cannot be.

[FreedomAngel82]

15. Right

I've tried all that but it hasn't worked. I told them how God gave us freewill to decide for ourselves and we go with the consequences. But it doesn't do anything.

[seabeyond]

25. not on this one it doesnt

she is a good hearted person. and didnt phase. we went at it in the biblical, the logical, the intellectual

what about rape...........if you insist on this then if a girl is raped tough. if her father gets her preg tough. i tell you, i wont allow the hypocrisy. if they ever banned and put up the three conditions i will be after em, as murders. cant call it murder and decide for others, yet say circumstance can allow. no circumstance can allow. but i have yet to get a anti abortion person to admit to the hypocrisy

they are just deciding which social behaVIOR should be punished and which should not be punished. not on fetus, on behavior and punishment

[Nobody]

44. You've got it

If you can get them to admit compassion for rape victims and that a woman whose life is in danger are good reasons for allowing abortion, you've got them. They have become pro-choice.

The only thing that differs from us and them is who gets to make that choice.

No one gets to make decisions of this magnitude for strangers. Until they are willing or able to live with the choices they make for others--allowing the embryo or fetus to be implanted in their own uterus to bring to term--they have no business making that choice for someone else.

And yes, it is a choice. They're making it for people they have no business making it for.

And if that doesn't get them, tell them that if they get to choose abortion or birth for another, that same woman will come knocking at their door to decide for them whether or not they can be treated for a serious medical condition.

I say enough already.

[NAO]

16. Katherine Yurica has made a Bible based argument for abortion

from her excellent essay (now published in book form and available on Amazon.com) "Bloodguilty Churches: Why Bush’s Agenda Is Immoral and an Abomination to God".

Here is the section from "Bloodguilty Churches" on abortion

What Does the Bible Say About Abortions?

The abortion issue has caused so many Americans to vote for Mr. Bush that its inspired a cottage industry in “congressional report card scores.” Coalitions of religious right organizations spend huge amounts of money grading congressional members’ voting records on a report card and mailing the cards all over America, but especially to church members. Abortion is the hottest grade on the card.

The dominionists have turned abortion into such an emotional issue that Pentecostal preachers have either ambushed and murdered doctors who performed legal abortions or they have supported those who did. The illegality of abortion has no biblical basis and has been entirely made up by the religious right to suit their political objectives.

To understand the biblical view of abortions, one must examine miscarriages and how the Bible treated them. In fact, the Bible makes no distinction between a woman who miscarried and a woman who was having her regular menstrual period: she was unclean until all the bleeding stopped in either case.<170> In this respect, an abortion or miscarriage was equal to a woman’s menstrual period and the fetus was not ever considered a person.<171>

By reviewing the law regarding punishment, we can see this even more clearly. As I discussed above, the “eye for an eye” law got into trouble because of the physical differences between men and women. If a woman was injured in a part not shared by a man—the remedy had to be pecuniary. But what would happen if the biblical example in the second paragraph given above was between two pregnant women? What if one pregnant woman injured the other in some way that caused the victim to have a miscarriage? Under those circumstances the “eye for an eye” law would come back into play. The defendant would have to undergo an abortion in the same way she inflicted the abortion on the injured woman. Significantly, Hosea 9:14 describes abortions as a punishment: “Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.”

The real topping to this issue that reveals the hypocrisy of the churches is the fact they have never believed a miscarried fetus is a sentient human, else they would have held funerals for them.

There are other aspects of the abortion debate that should be examined. In order to have made it an overriding issue for Catholics and many evangelical churches, the anti-abortion proponents had to lie that a zygote is a sentient human being. Obviously, the anti-abortion proponents believe that it is moral to lie because their ends (the bringing to term of all zygotes) justify their means; that is, lying leads to an allegedly pro-life end.

But biblically, he who lies hates the one he lies to. (Proverbs 26:28.) The scriptures then equate hating to be the moral equivalent of murder. (1 John 3:15.) So the irony is that biblically the anti-abortion proponents and followers who repeat the lies are the biblical equivalent to murderers. Yet there is no biblical injunction or punishment for abortion in the Bible. The issue of abortions is essentially a phony issue because humans abort—they miscarry and the God of the Bible did not label an aborted zygote a “sentient human being.” Period. End of story.

Bloodguilty Churches: Why Bush’s Agenda Is Immoral and an Abomination to God by Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html#anchor270084

[Just Me]

26. Excellent essay. Thank you for sharing that piece of true compassion!

"LIFE" ain't about QUANTITY,...it's about quality,...and we have a very, very long way to travel to deliver quality of life to the living.

[NAO]

30. "Bloodguilty Churches" is excellent resource to refute fundies on issues

To give a feel for the scope of this essay, here is the table of contents. The essay/book has 190 footnotes; it is exhaustively researched and extensively documented, and hits the issues of the religious right with sound Biblical refutations.


Contents of Bloodguilty Churches

In the Beginning

Invade Iraq or What's a Preemptive Strike?

Lies About the Threat of War

What Does the Bible Say About Preemptive Strikes?

The War Fairs

What Does the Bible Say About Profiting from War?

Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo

Does Mr. Bush Have the Moral High Ground?

Bush's Agenda for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid

What Does the Bible Say About How a Nation Must Treat the Poor and the Sick?

Mr. Bush's Immigration Plans

Deregulate Health and Safety and Environmental Laws

What Does the Bible Say About Rigging Devices?

Mr. Bush’s “Justice” Versus the Bible’s Justice

The Development of the Biblical Justice System

Be Careful Not to Commit Judicial Murders: The Texas Clemency Memos

Is Mr. Bush's Tort Reform Biblical?

The Bible's Criminal and Civil Code System

What Does the Bible Say About Abortions?

GOP Operatives as Slanderers and Hooligans, Scorner's and Ridiculers

What's Wrong With Today's Churches and 'Christians'?

Profile of the Man God Hates

End Notes

Bloodguilty Churches
http://www.yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html#anchor270084

[readmoreoften]

41. This is brilliant n/t

[kentuck]

17. My advice to "fundies"....simple and sweet.

Keep your nose out of other people's private lives and especially out of the bedrooms. It's not polite.

[Erika]

22. Ask them how many of their $ they wish to expend to stop

abortion and give the child a decent life. That usually shuts them up.

[JVS]

19. I tend not to get in such discussions on the grounds that there is no win

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. Keep a list of kids who are up for adoption and

unless and until they adopt every last one of them, tell them to keep their fucking mouth SHUT!

[satya]

24. Would they prefer to grant a noncitizen more rights than a citizen?

To be a citizen, you must be BORN or naturalized. To require a woman to carry a fetus against her own will gives the fetus more rights than the mother.

Of course, it's an unwinnable argument, because the fundie is operating under their interpretation of "God's Law" and not the constitution.

[satya]

27. Do they want the government to determine the size of their family?

It's a slippery slope--a government who can force you to bear children (by outlawing abortion) could also force you to have an abortion if your family is too large by some standard...

[merh]

28. Simple

Judge not lest ye be judged.

It is not their place to judge what an individual does with their lives or their bodies. It is God's place. When they judge, they put themselves on the same level of God, which is a sin.

[kcass1954]

31. I tell them that I'm actually a pro-life person.

I wish that no woman was ever in a position that she had to make such a decision. But until we have birth control that is covered by insurance, and all of us HAVE insurance, "accidents" happen and a lot of women feel that abortion is their only choice. Besides, I really don't have the right to force my religious beliefs on anyone else.


If you get argumentative right off the bat, their eyes glaze over and they totally tune you out. I don't know that I've changed anyone's mind regarding the abortion issue, but I have started some interesting conversations about health insurance (or lack thereof).

[alcuno]

32. In my Catholic family, we assume that abortion will always be legal.

So the real question is "What now?" What can people do to enable women who want to have their child to be able to support them and care for them? Shouldn't we be creating a society that values life and is willing to pay for it?

Get the fundies to move on to the next set of questions.

[Dervill Crow]

38. that's the best answer.

Learning to live in the world as it is and helping the people who are here. I was involved with the Right to Life Education Foundation for years. I don't see a contradiction between that and being pro-choice and supporting Planned Parenthood. You may not see a person's mind change immediately, but if you can get them to actually THINK ABOUT IT, they might eventually realize that it isn't as black and white an issue as they think. And that when it comes down to it, it really is nobody else's business.

[Maru Kitteh]

33. Have you tried asking them exactly how much Jesus had to say about it?

Tell them Jesus was much more concerned about greed and self-righteousness and had literally nothing at all to say about abortion. As the alpha and omega if it were important he would have spoken about it at least once.

OR

Start with a question. Start by asking them if they agree that Jesus behavior is something all of his flock should try very hard to emulate. Of course they have to agree, so it's not a real question but we don't care. Ask them what Jesus did when he came upon a woman about to be stoned to death for adultery. What lesson can we take away from what Jesus said to those who were ready to pass judgment on others?

[liberal43110]

34. I question them

Instead of arguing with them, I use the Socratic method, to ask them questions and use their answers to probe deeper. It's hard to hide from the Socratic method.

I really like the questions on this site about the morality of abortion (from a former fundie, no less): http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortionanswers.html

[housewolf]

40. What a great resource -

Thanks for posting.

[B Calm]

43. No one is pro abortion. That's why it should be legal and rare.

[The Doctor.]

35. I like pointing out a couple of things...

One - the Bible says nothing about abortion being wrong.

Two - nearly 20% of abortions are requested by women who say they are 'right to life' supporters.

While I do not like the idea of termination, I will never pretend to know what is best for someone else. That the proceedure is abused is very sad, but banning the proceedure will cause a great deal more sufferring.
(Unless your father is rich and connected)

I like to ask people if they knew if anyone in their immediate or extended family has had one. They usually say 'no'.
Then I explain that if one of their relatives died from an unsafe and 'illegal' proceedure they would most certainly know about it.

Then I tell them that it is 70% likely someone in their family has.
(assuming a couple of mature sisters and daughters are in the family.)


Try these;

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/bible.shtml

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

[confrontationclaws]

37. Before you flip them off,

Tell them that their "god" gave us the knowledge and skill to be able to improve upon infanticide as birth control.

[me b zola]

39. My fundie-lite mother in law reads the Bible literally

...and she believes that abortion should be legal. The way that she reads the Bible it states that a soul is not given to a child until it takes it's first breath. She blew me away when she told me this! I don't know where that is written, but perhaps a little research will be another means of defense when attacked by fundies! Add that to the wonderful arsenal written above!

Also, when I lived in a very small,very conservative town in Missouri I attended Catholic church (this was the mid 90's). One day in the sermon the priest talked about abortion and had the ushers hand out postage paid, message already included (just needed their signature)post cards to be sent to Congress asking them to make a stand for "pro-life". Being the people watcher that I am, I stayed after church, watching what people did with the post cards. Almost every one was left in the pews!!! This is the thing about most conservatives: they are against you or a poor woman having an abortion. When it comes to THEIR daughter (or son who has gotten the "wrong" girl pregnant) they are most supportive of reproductive rights...but very quietly.

[Floogeldy]

42. Characterize the debate as government power vs. individual rights

Since when did individuals surrender their rights and the power over birthing decisions to government?

[Nobody]

45. A riddle for you

An American expat in Germany has sex and discovers the pregnancy. Before giving birth, she passes the citizenship test and becoms a German citizen. A couple months later she gives birth.

Of what country is the newborn a citizen?

[Toucano]

46. Look at their amendment for the contradiction.

1/4/2005--Introduced.
Constitutional Amendment - Declares that the word "person," as used in this amendment and in the fifth and 14th amendments to the Constitution, applies to all human beings regardless of age, health, function, or condition of dependency, including unborn offspring at every stage of their biological development. Prohibits depriving any unborn person of life. Declares that this amendment does not: (1) prohibit a law permitting medical procedures required to prevent the death of the mother of an unborn person; or (2) limit the liberty of a mother regarding the unborn offspring conceived as a result of rape or incest.

Emphasis is mine.

Is that not the stupidest piece of legislation you've ever seen! It defines a human being as the entity "...at every stage of their biological development," unless that entity has the GALL to be the product of rape or incest. By their definition, this is the same as executing a 20 year old man because his father committed a crime.

The "life" is no less innocent just because it was created in an act of violence.

Gotta love that "culture of life" don't cha'?

Furthermore, they acknowledge that their position is a restriction on the liberty of women.

[LizW]

49. They are using another "ends justifies the means" lie

The "rape or incest exception" is a lie. They put it in to make the law appear less punitive to women. But they know that in practice, the burden would be on the woman to prove rape or incest to some authority before getting an abortion.

These people know exactly how many cases of rape or incest go unreported. They also know how often even reported cases are not prosecuted, and even if prosecuted, how long it takes to get a conviction.

A woman has only a few weeks from the rape to discover that she's pregnant and get an abortion. These people know they are stacking the odds against that happening.

The don't really care about raped women. They care about power and control over ALL women.

[Maine-ah]

47. when they throw the religious aspect into it, give 'em this.

Religion - 43% of women getting an abortion claimed they were Protestant, while 27% claimed they were Catholic.

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

[countryjake]

48. There is no fate on earth worse than being an unwanted child.

I ignore all their talk of "moment of conception" crap & viability notions & rights of the unborn; suggest that you'd rather discuss what's real & speak of the lives of all the miserable children who suffer thru the foster-care system in this country, all of the over-looked child-abuse & babies who are brutalized or die at the hands of those who are responsible for them. When they suggest that our culture is going to hell-in-a-handbasket because of abortions, say, no, it's probably just the sheer desperation of all those thrown-away, unguided, unwanted children. And if ya want to get biblical, tell them we shall surely reap what we sow, if laws are passed that forces the creation of even more of them.