Can you be a Christian and support the death penalty?

[Bo]

I would really like to know.

[tuvor]

1. Funny you should mention that.

I just found this:

Rejecting Jesus' Extreme Makeover
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0417-30.htm

[Bo]

7. Thank You that was helpful

[cidliz2004]

49. YES, You do not go to Heaven by works, so even if you are twisted in some

way and - God Forbid - a sinner still goes to Heaven. We go to Heaven because we accept that Jesus Christ is our Saviour and the Son of God and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins so that we may go to heaven. "Our works" don't enter into the equation. The purest sense of Christianity teaches us that.

[RBHam]

2. Of course not...

Thou shall not kill...

Don't get more explicit than that, what?

[New Dealer]

5. In original Hebrew, it reads "thou shalt not commit murder"

It depends on what you consider murder. Personally, I support the death penalty (although I'm not a Christian), because I don't believe that a legal execution is murder.

[GreenArrow]

13. depends on the translator

.

[Canuckistanian]

25. That begs the question

What's the definition of "legal"? Governments and courts the world over condemn people to death for the wrong reasons all the time.
The "legal" world is clearly fallible.

[New Dealer]

32. Yes, that's a tough question

Technically, Hitler's killing of 6 million Jews was completely legal. However, the execution of a convicted murderer does not compare to Hitler's actions or the actions of any other brutal governments.

[theHandpuppet]

34. The words of Jesus Christ

From the book of Matthew, the Sermon on the Mount:

38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a
tooth for a tooth:
39
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other
also.
40
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy
coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him
twain.
42
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of
thee turn not thou away.

43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse
you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and
sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not
even the publicans the same?
47
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than
others? do not even the publicans so?
48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven
is perfect.

[New Dealer]

47. I don't think anyone should be expected to follow that

You have to be a very strong-willed person to obey the Bible 100%, and it's not very practical to "turn the other cheek" to certain people, murderers in particular. Pope John Paul II is the only person I know of who actually forgave his assassin.

[RevCheesehead]

51. I expect all Christians to follow that.

Here's a modern paraphrase of that same passage:

Here's another old saying that deserves a second look: "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth." Is that going to get us anywhere? Here's what I propose: "Don't hit back at all." If someone strikes you, stand there and take it. If someone drags you into court and sues for the shirt off your back, giftwrap your best coat and make a present of it. And if someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life. No more tit-for-tat stuff. Live generously.

You're familiar with the old written law, "Love your friend," and its unwritten companion, "Hate your enemy." I'm challenging that. I'm telling you to love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst. When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your true selves, your God-created selves. This is what God does. He gives his best - the sun to warm and the rain to nourish - to everyone, regardless: the good and bad, the nice and nasty. If all you do is love the lovable, do you expect a bonus? Anybody can do that. If you simply say hello to those who greet you, do you expect a medal? Any run-of-the-mill sinner does that.

In a word, what I'm saying is, Grow up. You're kingdom subjects. Now live like it. Live out your God-created identity: Live generously and graciously toward others, the way God lives toward you.

-from The Message by Eugene Peterson

It might not be popular, but it is what Christians are expected to do. There is no hiding from the words of Jesus.

It's OK if you aren't there yet - but you are expected to grow into being able to do that. Forgiveness takes time and effort. Christians are expected to forgive. Jesus makes it clear that if we are unwilling to forgive others, then we ourselves will not be forgiven by God. He says this over and over again, but we keep on ignoring it - at our own peril.

[New Dealer]

55. I don't expect all Christians to follow that

Otherwise, I would also have to logically expect all Christians to despise homosexuals, which most of them in Seattle don't.

[RevCheesehead]

57. There is nothing in Christianity which calls us to despise anyone.

I expect all Christians to love all persons. Period.

[thecai]

80. The Fear Of The Lord Is To Hate Evil

NOT people. It's ok to hate what people do.
It is NOT Christian to despise ANYONE. Jesus DIED for sinners, He hated no one. He forgave those who crucified Him. Christians are to follow His example.

[theHandpuppet]

87. Please quote me a passage where Jesus referred to homosexuals

If you're a Christian, you're following the words of Christ as outlined in the New Testament.

Jesus had a lot to say about divorce, about religious hypocrites, about people who pray in public and those who accrue earthly riches. I don't recall anything he said about gay folks.

[thecai]

79. Forgiveness

My first husband beat me to death, I had an out of body experience (and no longer fear death because of it). I forgave him 100%. Divorced him, of course, but I never wished vengence on him. "Vengence is Mine, saith The Lord".
A hit and run driver deliberately plowed me off a highway, nearly killing my passenger and I, but I forgive him.
Forgiveness aids in healing.

[theHandpuppet]

88. Didn't Jesus forgive those who crucified him?

Or is that simply an incovenient point about Christianity and the message of forgiveness?

[LdyGuique]

84. This to me is the "essence" of Christianity

It specifically sets aside the OT theme of "equal justice" for a crime, the eye for an eye so often quoted by Christians. Are all parts of of the "Sermon on the Mount" possible to live up to? Who knows unless one tries and tries again? Does a child learn to tie their shoes all in one session? Do they potty train in one session? Do they learn to reach out and share a hand of friendship to the new kid in the class each and every time? All of these things are learned through trial and error as one lives one's life.

I'm not Christian; however, I can think of no reason that a Christian shouldn't struggle to comply with "Red Letter" text from the Bible -- more than any other text. If the red letter text is in conflict with older or other portions of the Bible, it should be chosen as the "authoritative" text.

Perhaps, times aren't as simple as they were 2000 years ago; however, this doesn't mean that if one has chosen Christ as their savior that they shouldn't do anything and everything in their power to attempt to follow his instructions.

Some crimes are heinous. I truly don't understand the people who do them; however, I feel I must make the attempt and give them the remainder of their life to make atonement. If I were Christian, I know that I'd believe this with even more depth and feeling. The right of each person to seek their spiritual path should be considered a right. Who needs grace more?

So, my answer would be a qualified: If one professes to being a Christian, it is incumbant on them to attempt to talk the talk and walk the walk. Someone told you how to do it -- it's important to make the attempt.

[thecai]

97. Very Good Post, Ldy!

What a better place the world would be if more non-believers AND Christians felt that way.

[thecai]

78. So You Have No Problem...

...with executing the innocent and wrongfully convicted, New Dealer? Our judicial system is too corrupt to trust with people's lives.

[Toots]

92. That is just not true

In all of the original texts it has always been interpreted as Thou shall not kill. It is only being said by current right wing fundie Christians that the interpretations have been wrong. It is their way of dealing with the obvious contradiction they face with their Killings....The law was plain and never been contested before this decade...

[Toots]

93. All people put to death by the government are listed as homicides on their

Death Certificate. Homicide and murder are pretty much one and the same..

[GreenArrow]

3. no

No. You can "call" yourself a Christian, but you can't actually be one.

[thecorster]

4. I'm a christian and i don't support it

i also don't beleive in abortion, but i beleive that as a man, i can't make any decision on birth control for women, so i'm totally pro-choice.

as for the death penalty, it's not a part of the chritian teaching, so i don't know how they (bushco and repubs) can justify it.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

6. Jesus said to reject "an eye for an eye"

and forgave the condemned adulteress

There's no such thing as a Christian conservative.

[illflem]

8. Only by stoning after they have been smitten

[saltpoint]

11. Illflem, I'm off-topic here, but can I interrupt and ask you --

-- who is the author of the quote in your signature line?

Because it is TERRIFIC.

[illflem]

48. Not sure.

I've googled it and most hits lead back to me. It's not mine originally though, think I saw something similar on a bumper sticker many years ago.

[saltpoint]

65. Oh. Well, it sure is great. I really like it.

[drdtroit]

9. NO! n/t

[saltpoint]

10. I can see Paulists making the case, but if one is actually --

-- and authentically a Christian, what would the motivation be in supporting the death penalty?

One of the raps against the way some Christians practice is that they claim a prince of peace while condemning the hell out of everyone around them.

The scene that springs to mind is Jesus scolding the villagers with rocks in their hands who've gathered to stone an adulteress. I would take that as a strong argument against the death penalty.

[Bo]

12. ...very true old crusoe that is a prohibition

[RevCheesehead]

53. Once again, Crusoe -

Nail squarely hit on the head. :thumbsup:

[saltpoint]

64. Rev, a hearty howdy to ya tonight.

It is nice to keep running into you on these boards.

I hope you're having a good weekend & I hope you have some early lilacs in bloom up in your neck of the woods.

Good wishes to you,

OC

[RevCheesehead]

68. Hi back at'cha!

:hi:

No lilacs yet (that's usually mid to late May), but the daffodils are finally blooming. Daffys make me smile! :)

[saltpoint]

70. Yeah. It's hard to argue with daffodils.

I hope all's well your way.

(If you have a moment tomorrow, may I ask a favor? Please consider a brief email message to Senator Chafee (R-RI) to help persuade him to vote against the president's nomination of John Bolton for U.N. Ambassador.)

Sen. Chafee's email webform is at:

http://chafee.senate.gov/webforem.htm

Chafee's a more moderate Republican than the Santorum- and the Sessions-style Republicans. The vote is 10-8 right now; if Chafee switches, it goes to 9-9 and the nomination is blocked.

Hate to impose, but Sunday night is my politickin' night.

Good wishes, Rev. Cheesehead.

[RevCheesehead]

72. Sure, I'll get to it tomorrow.

BTW, you may call me Cheese. Most of my friends do!

I wonder if your thought could go on a bumpersticker: "It's hard to argue with daffodils." If positioned next to, say, a Kerry sticker, it would drive the neo-cons nuts!

[saltpoint]

73. Cheese! I like the bumpersticker idea a lot.

And thank you for helping with the email message to Sen. Chafee.

Thank you!

[seabeyond]

14. yes you can, can you be a christian deciding who a christian is?

[tuvor]

15. What part of Christ's teachings condones capital punishment?

Post #6 makes a good case that He was against it. What do you know that makes you conclude differently?

[seabeyond]

42. we are none of us perfect

jesus is in heart. he is the only one capable of knowing. example, if someone has been victim and are in such great pain, and throws that pain to another, another that this person sees no redeeming value, and in their mind create them as evil, have now stepped to justification of execution of...............yes i htink jesus still loves htem, yes i think they are still christians

jesus is in the heart and knows how and why the person feels as they do. knows is merely a person. is not all the person is. just one small fearful, frightened piece of the person. and simply because they do not understand. that is why the fundies are so wrong in judging everyone on rules, they are missing out on the very premise of who and what jesus gave us

now that is in christ conscience. if you want to judge if mans rule in biblical interpretation, literal......can murder be justified then i think we have to conclude, looking at bible in one way, there is interpretation death penalty is nto ok, but taken literally there can be validation

[journalist3072]

16. I'm a Christian, and I support the death penalty.

However, I think that there should be a moratorium on the death penalty, to have an opportunity to study it, because the evidence is overwhelming that race and class often play a part in how the death penalty is distributed.

So I'm a Christian and I support the dealth penalty, but I think there needs to be a moratorium right now.

[tuvor]

23. On what do you base your support?

Based on Christ's words, I don't see any way of supporting it.

[journalist3072]

26. My support for the death penalty

Is based on cold-hearted, murdering bastards like Tim McVeigh, who show absolutely no regard for the lives they took.

[Henny Penny]

41. will you allow

"cold-hearted, murdering bastards like Tim McVeigh" persuade you to join them?

340 people have been murdered in Texas by the state since the reintroduction of the death penalty.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[mitchum]

38. "Render unto Caesar...blah...blah...blah"

It's not my belief system, but it seems that this would be one justification.
Jeez, I can't believe I'm giving them ammunition.

[patcox2]

89. The point is its unclear enough to be a matter of conscience.

How about abortion? Contraception? Divorce? The only one Jesus was absolutely crystal clear on was divorce, he flatly prohibited it and criticized the lax law of the old testament.

But anyway, the point made by Seabeyond up above is true in spades; you cannot be a christian if you go around judging whether other people are "christians" based on your beliefs, interpretations, and faith.

Thats not your job, judging the bona fides of another christian's beliefs.

So, it is possible to be in favor of the death penalty and be christian. It is also possible to be against the death penalty and be christian.

Sorry to those who find freedom of conscience scary and regard any religion which doesn't require rigid, lockstep adherence to doctrine as "hypocritical." Maybe you all should look into some of the fundamentalist sects, they are pretty full of the certitude and judgmentalism you seem to be looking for.

[classof56]

24. I agree with you about the moratorium. I heard a radio preacher say this:

When Jesus was arrested in the garden prior to his trial and crucifixion, one of his followers grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of the high priest's servant. Jesus told his follower to put away his sword, because "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword." The preacher stated flatly that this was Jesus condoning the death penalty for murderers. I hadn't heard that before, and I don't agree with that interpretation, but doubtless there are many of the preacher's listeners who do. I am a Christian and I have gone back and forth about my support and opposition to the death penalty. Maybe knowing someone who's been murdered in a horrible way affected my thinking, and reading about some truly reprensible things killers do to their victims (especially kids) affected me as well. All the recent cases where DNA evidence proves the wrong person has been convicted and faces execution makes on wonder, too. But I don't think my stand on the death penalty is the litmus test for my status as a Christian. God wrote the rules on that one and I've done what he said I should.

[RevCheesehead]

54. huh?

Did you mean to say that this was Jesus condemning the death penalty? Because I do not see in any way how Jesus would condone the killing of others?!

[classof56]

99. No, he said just what I related here, so have to think he meant

that Jesus was condoning the death penalty--live by the sword (kill someone), die by the sword (get killed by someone, i.e., the state). As I said, I don't agree with that interpretation, but it's what the preacher man said.

[stray cat]

17. Kind of arrogant for me to make that kind of call on someones faith.

I think I will leave that judgement between God and the Christian. It sounds to much like the radical fundamentalists when I draw lines that God doesn't explicitely draw.

[CalebHayes]

18. Sure, but your going against what it says in the ten comandments...

it just seems that simple to me.

[Swede]

19. No.

If you are a true believer you cannot.

[msongs]

20. Sure, 100,000,000 + killed in 2000 years....xians love death.

untold millions of people have been raped, tortured, and murdered in the name of the xian religion. what's a few more here and there?

Msongs

[wtmusic]

21. Hell yeah -- Jesus condemned men to death

so much for forgiveness. :eyes:

[Bill McBlueState]

22. yes

There are Christians who support murdering abortion providers. There are Christians who support keeping women subservient to men. There are Christians who support the murder of civilians, as long as they're brown. What's to keep a Christian from supporting the death penalty?

People just use religion to amplify the opinions they already have.

[RevCheesehead]

56. Those would be Christians who fail to heed the words of Christ. n/t

[roguevalley]

27. no. without equivocation. no.

[Chomp]

28. No

[beyurslf]

29. A better question is: "Can you be a Christian and a Republican?"

[mikehiggins]

30. Nope, not really

More to the point, can you support state sanctioned killing particularly when time and again convictions have turned out to be wrong or tainted by false evidence or doctored testimony?

We have an imperfect system, the imperfections of which become more obvious every year. The time to do away with capital punishment has already passed. It is just the political system that keeps it from happening.

[Fescue4u]

31. Of course you can.

You can be who you want, and support what you want.

[RevCheesehead]

33. It really depends on your theology.

If you're Christian in name only, you probably don't give a rip what your "official" church teaching is, and believe it is a matter of personal choice.

Here's my theological answer:
Christ died on the cross for the sins of all of humanity. Because he was a perfect and sinless sacrifice, his death was made in atonement for our sins. There is nothing that anyone can do to "earn" forgiveness - forgiveness is a free, unmerited gift.

If we, who call ourselves Christians, truly believe this, then we must also believe that Christ died for the sins of those who harmed others, too. This forgiveness absolutely must be available to all, no matter who they are or what they did. It must apply equally to all, or else it means nothing (much like our constitution).

This year, our Sunday School kids made a poster/collage, called "The Faces of God." They found pictures of all kinds of people, and added them to the poster. Included in those pictures were the face of Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, and Michael Jackson (and even a Minnesota Viking!). They knew EXACTLY what they were doing... they knew that all people are created in God's image, and all people are worthy of God's love - even when they do unloveable things.

It's because of that love that Jesus died for the whole world. A Christian who understands these depths of love and forgiveness cannot, in good conscience, support the death penalty.

(The short answer is: Christians believe that Christ paid the death penalty on behalf of all of us. Whatever the government does is irrelevant, since we answer to a higher authority.)

[American in Asia]

61. sigh....

I had a fundamentalist Christian upbringing and as a young adult I walked away from organized religion because I couldn't reconcile what my heart and head told me Christ taught with what the churches I was going to espoused. The death penalty is a good example. Issues of social justice, poverty, etc., are others.

RevCheesehead, I agree with everything you said, and only wish I could find a church here like yours must be. Ah well, even knowing there are Christians who believe this way kinda restores my hope.

[RevCheesehead]

71. I hope that will happen for you.

Are there any United Methodist churches near you? That's my denomination (which varies greatly in theological practice).

[American in Asia]

81. No...

Where I live there are not many Christians. We have a small Catholic church that's active, and a Southern Baptist one. Neither are a good fit for me. In the meantime, I get so much out of reading posts by folks like you here. It helps immensely to see a demonstration that you can be both a progressive and a Christian -- a notion that my family and their mega-church would find somewhat odd!

[thecai]

82. Welcome To DU, American in Asia!

Good to see you here!

[American in Asia]

86. Thanks!

:hi:

[RevCheesehead]

91. I understand...

Have you checked out our Liberal Christians group here on DU?

I would also highly recommend Sojourners - go to www.Sojo.net
You can sign up for their weekly newsletters, then click on whatever articles look interesting to you (that's what I do).

[Zorra]

35. No. n/t

[mitchum]

36. As long as they are making it up as they go along...

which they seem to do

[Taxloss]

37. "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone."

I believe that was Jesus' opinion on the matter; so the answer is effectively "no".

[indepat]

39. Can you be a Christian and support the indiscriminate death/maiming of

of countless innocent people?

[Henny Penny]

40. No humane person can support the death penalty,

Christian or otherwise.

If you limit the question to Christians then did Jesus not say "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" in order to prevent an angry mob from stoning a woman accused of adultery to death?

The very idea that it is ok to kill another human being in cold blood is barbaric. :puke:

[Zhade]

43. Sure, lots of people are hypocrites.

NT!

[leesa]

44. Ask yourself if Jesus would have...it's easy. Isn't that who you are

supposed to be following?

[ClayZ]

45. No!

absativly posalutely, not!

[forgethell]

46. Absolutley.

I'm a Christian. I support the death penalty. That creep in Florida, for instance, deserves nothing else, and neither does his victim.

[Henny Penny]

50. verily.....

that is for the Lord to decide... not you, his humble servant.

[forgethell]

85. No, it

is for the government and the courts to decide. They are the agents of God


Romans 13
Be Subject to Government
1Every (A)person is to be in (B)subjection to the governing authorities For (C)there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

3For (D)rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an (E)avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also (F)for conscience' sake.

6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

7(G)Render to all what is due them: (H)tax to whom tax is due; (I)custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

[Henny Penny]

94. and I say unto thee...

that Christ did not write this letter.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. I have talked

on other boards of some who are Christians who do and some who don't. I'm Christian and don't. It's not my place to kill someone or support the killing of someone. Therefore I wouldn't be good with war either. Heh heh. To a lot I think they do since they see it as justification. Like if someone murders someone else it's an "eye for an eye" type of ordeal which isn't Christian at all but very Old Testament. Jesus taught "turning the other cheek."

[napi21]

58. Yes you can.

I wish I could remember the rational explaination I got from my cousin, who is a minister, and a Democrat, when I told him I didn't think it was acceptable for Christians to support the death penalty. He told me I was wrong, and actually did have a reason that made sense at the time.

I don't support the death penalty myself, mainly because I don't think it's possible to be positive about a person's guilt, but...I also have to admit, if someone brutally killed one of my kids, or my husband, I would want him to die! I know it's a contradiction, but I know I'd want revenge.

[Igel]

59. No. And yes.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. And to God, that which is God's. Christianity, as spoken by Jesus, cannot even order a church. You're raped by a minister ... you must forgive him, there's no punishment. Your wife is killed because somebody likes her jewelry ... forgive. Enron? We must forgive Ken Lay, and if he wants more, as Christians give it to him.

* launches a preemptive war in Korea, 3 million people killed. Forgive. There's more said about hating other people--including *--than there is about punishing murderers. Given what Jesus said, nobody can call him/herself Christian and hate *. Death penalty? No provision for it among Christians. Punishment is God's. We forgive. Presumably.

On the other hand, the woman caught in adultery was pronounced guilty, presumably of adultery: else why did Jesus forgive her? Why did she need forgiveness? And why tell her to stop it, if that forgiveness wasn't, ultimately, going to end?

On the other hand, there is a government. I don't think a government can call itself Christian, ever. It has to have laws, and enforce them. Some are mundane: signal before turning left. Others aren't: you steal, you get punished hard. You rape, you get punished harder. You demonstrate that human life is meaningless ... you must be punished. That's where the death penalty fits in. But it should be made very difficult to apply wrongfully, and given the adversarial court system we have I think that's difficult: both sides should seek what's right, not just to win, i.e., not one side seeking only "guilty", and the other side only "innocent". But that applies the wo/men involved aren't corrupt or corruptible, also a bad assumption. So, like abortion, the death penalty should be rare.

Prior to the Old Covenant the death penalty was issued by God. In Jesus' day, the death penalty was enforced--just not by him. But, to turn fundie: if he's king, what king supports lawlessness, and having his subjects pillaged?

[Swamp Rat]

60. No. According to this rule: Thou shall not kill.

If someone says they are a Christian yet supports the death penalty, they are a lying hypocrite.

[quaoar]

62. You've obviously never been to Death Row

[Swamp Rat]

63. And the price of tea on Mars is?

:shrug:

[Disturbed]

66. According to the bible..

Jesus was ordered by his father to submitt to the death penalty. Jesus didn't seem so anxious to follow those orders but he did so. There is nothing in the NT that says that he was anti-DP.

I am against it because it is fallable, is not a deterent and seems to be a tool for revenge.

[quaoar]

74. Not sure of the price of tea on Mars

But I am sure that a trip to Death Row changes one's perspective on the death penalty.

[Swamp Rat]

75. Well, I have always been against the death penalty, for ANY reason.

I doubt a trip to death row will convince me otherwise. On the contrary, it would likely confirm my personal philosophy that killing anyone, even in the name of justice, is wrong.

edit: Did you think I was FOR the dath penalty?

[Spider Jerusalem]

67. "Thou shalt not MURDER", actually.

Bad translation from the Hebrew there.

[Swamp Rat]

76. Thank you, for I know not Hebrew.

I have relied on crappy translations all my life. :)

[FM Arouet666]

69. Of course you can, the history of christianity is replete with violence

The bible is full of death, god smiting this or that, the church's history clearly shows how easy death and killing can be rationalized by religious dogma. The bible is so contradictory that you can support just about any position you want. Moral certainty?

Can an atheistic secular humanist support the death penalty? Not this one, and I do not need some ancient text interpreted for me by a corrupt or intellectually deficient clergy to establish my morals.

Guess this is why they did not make hypocrisy the eleventh commandment.

:evilgrin:

[thecai]

77. I Don't See How

Jesus said as we do to the least of these, the poor, the needy, the prisoners, we do to Him. Matt. 25:36-46
edit: Jesus also said to love our neighbors like we Love ourselves and to PRAY for our enemies, not kill them.

[hecate77]

83. I always thought the part about Christianity that is related to Jesus

was pretty clear. Love everyone. No killing. It is only when you mix in the old testament and all that stuff that the waters get so muddied.

I am no longer a Christian, but I have a deep understanding of that faith, and I cannot see how you could possibly be for the death penalty and be a Christian.

[patcox2]

90. Yes, and its also possible to oppose it and be a christian.

What it is not possible to do is judge whether another person's beliefs are sufficiently "christian" to pass your personal test or belief as to what it is or is not to be a christian.

The quick rundown on the arguments made here are as follows: citing the ten comandments as prohibiting the death penalty is evidence of biblical illiteracy, an argument no person aith actual knowledge of the topic would make, and not worth rebuttal.

Citing "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a strong argument. It convinced me, it apparently convinced the catholic church (by the way, that would be a way to aquire some actual knowledge on this topic, for those interested, as opposed to arguing based on having read Isaac Asimov' bible intrpretations; look up the catholic papal encyclical in which the church puts forth the reasons it has concluded that the death penalty is wrong).

But anyway, the scene with the stoning of the prostitute certainly is not clear, otherwise why would so many christian sects disagree, why have so many reversed or revised their position over history?

You know, Christ said that there is only one rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you; maybe the golden rule actually admits of a bit of evolution of morality based on prevailing social mores. Some would say "I would expect to be executed if I committed a horrible crime."


But really, whats the point, is this just another oblique suggestion that christians are "hypocrites?"

How about abortion? Contraception? Divorce? The only one Jesus was absolutely crystal clear on was divorce, he flatly prohibited it and criticized the lax law of the old testament. Yet most christian sects permit it, except for the evil and hidebound catholic church.

In any event, the point made by Seabeyond up above is true in spades; you cannot be a christian if you go around judging whether other people are "christians" based on your beliefs, interpretations, and faith.

Thats not your job, judging the bona fides of another christian's beliefs.

So, it is possible to be in favor of the death penalty and be christian. It is also possible to be against the death penalty and be christian.

Sorry to those who find freedom of conscience scary and regard any religion which doesn't require rigid, lockstep adherence to doctrine as "hypocritical." Maybe you all should look into some of the fundamentalist sects, they are pretty full of the certitude and judgmentalism you seem to be looking for.

[Zenlitened]

98. And yet we are routinely admonished here on DU...

... not to lump all christians together because some are "real" christians and some are not.

:shrug:

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

95. Yes.

I support it in general principle, on a case-by-case basis. Some people really do deserve the death penalty. However,the current application is flawed, with oftentimes new evidence overturning convictions, and the unfair application of it.

Honestly, I'm a bit conflicted, hence the case-by-case approach. It should always be an option, probably the last resort option, much like war.

[devilgrrl]

96. If you're Antonin Scalia... absolutely!!!!!

eom

[Henny Penny]

100. If you support the death penalty

then you have completely missed the point of Christianity.

[eek MD]

101. You can be a christian and support anything.......

doesn't mean that you'll be a "christian in good standing".....
Join us athiests.....believe what you think is right...not what someone else tells you to believe... :)