My pizza delivery guy is a Neo-Nazi

[Ian David]

I ran into our pizza delivery guy at a restaurant today. He said, "Hey you live on XYZ Road. I deliver your pizza from Acme Pizza."

(Names changed to protect the innocent).

That's when I noticed he had a large swastika tattooed on his ankle.

My concerns:

1) I hate Nazis.

2) The guy knows where I live and has an idea of my politics.


3) The guy is in a position to learn way too much about too many people.
a) He knows credit-card numbers, addresses and phone numbers.
b) He knows who lives at which houses.
c) He knows what race each of his customers is and can make some pretty good guesses about their religions.
d) When regular, frequent customers don't order for a while, he has an idea who is away on vacation and when.

4) The Neo-Nazis aren't just a typical Christo-Fascist cult that likes to stage protests and make phonecalls to the FCC about Janet Jackson's nipples. Neo-Nazis actively engage in violent criminal activity such as armored car robberies, assaults, murder, etc. They are working toward what they call "RAHOWA"-- Racial Holy War. Neo-Nazis are not just a group that exercises hate speech but they actively organize hate acts.

See:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/hatewatch/hatewatch.jsp

This makes me concerned.

I feel like I need to do or say something, but whatever it is, I think I need to wait a while until running into me is no longer fresh in the guy's mind.

Oh, and my wife says, "Oh, great. So there's another pizza place we have to boycott now?"

Anyway, any ideas?

[InfoMinister]

1. What Can You Do?

He hasn't done anything illegal that you know of.

[Yupster]

19. You don't have to shop there, but

filing a complaint?

I don't think so.

What would the complaint be?

I don't like the personal politics of one of your employees?

So what?

Is that really an argument you want to be making?

[China_cat]

2. I don't know where you are

but here the only thing the delivery guys get is the address where they are to take it and the price. The answering center gets all the rest of the info (we don't use credit or debit cards unless we pick up, cash for delivery). While one guy might deliver to us fairly regulary it's not unusual to see new faces. No one deliverer would know how many times we order.

[SmokingJacket]

3. Tell the pizza shop you'll be getting pizza elsewhere, and why.

And do so.

Neo-nazism needs to become socially unacceptable -- sure, he has the right to believe whatever filth he wants, but you also have the right to buy pizza from someone whose ankle doesn't offend the hell out of you.

Also, call the credit card company and get a new number. You can do that!

[Swamp Rat]

11. AND, if it is part of a restaurant chain, one can call the home office

to file a complaint.

A long time ago I worked for a print shop that was printing literature for a local Neo-Nazi group. Even though their business was accepted, I and a few others refused to do any work associated with them. Therefore, the manager had to do it all by herself, which meant she had to (for hours and hours) look at cartoons of skinheads raping women and exterminating Jews.

I do not suffer those fools lightly. :grr:

[readmoreoften]

4. Tattoos are also forever when you're a pizza guy

Tattoo removal is pretty expensive. Any chance this guy was a brainwashed idiot as a teenager and saw the light later in life? Does he still look like a skinhead? Was his comment to you menacing or polite?

I'd just get a new pizza guy and not worry too much about it.

[UdoKier]

10. Yep. And As long as he hasn't said anything or broken the law...

you have no complaint. People are allowed to be neo-nazis on their own time. It's the downside of freedom.

[Ian David]

20. I would defend his right to say and believe as he sees fit

I'm just not willing to patronize people who say what he does and I don't feel safe dealing with people who believe what he does.

He can say and believe what he wants.

I don't have to give him money and I have good cause to be afraid of having him around.

Ann Coulter may have every right to say "kill the liberals," but that doesn't mean you have to buy her book or be happy about her living nextdoor.


Racism: It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

[UdoKier]

21. He's a peon at a pizza shop.

Not like he owns the place.

And like the other poster said, do you have any way to be sure he is an active neo-nazi?

[Ian David]

25. I don't know that he's active, no...

I'd say I could follow him around for a while and see for myself, but follwing a pizza delivery guy around would put a lot of miles on my car.

[AlienGirl]

32. Eek! Don't try following him around!

If he *is* active, and is a security risk, the last thing you want is to seem to be checking him out!!

Tucker

[Dorian Gray]

38. Oh no...

You really should follow him around. For at least a whole week. When you can't do it, recruit someone else to do it. It's the only way you'll learn about his activities. It's necessary in our fight for personal freedoms.


::crickets chirping::

[LiberallyInclined]

61. how do you know what he believes?

vulcan mind-meld?

[Pushed To The Left]

48. Excellent point

If the restaurant fired him for his tattoo, he would have a pretty good civil liberties case against them. He also might be a former skinhead who has changed his ways. But there is nothing wrong with changing pizza places if you don't feel comfortable.

[Zhade]

13. My friend's childhood friend was once a Neo-Nazi in his teen years.

He had a swastika tattoo. He was ashamed of it. You know how you could tell? Every day he would blacken the area with a Sharpie.

He washed the ink off to show her once, and then promptly covered it back up. To my knowledge, he's still doing this every day.

One can 'erase' the evidence of shameful past associations, if one is so inclined. This guy doesn't sound so inclined.

[Ian David]

17. He was a young guy, and acted friendly enough

You know, if aliens landed on Earth and met this guy and his girlfriend, and he told them he was a member of "The Master Race," I wouldn't blame the aliens for destroying the planet if they thought this was the best we had to offer.

[UdoKier]

33. What a backhanded compliment.

You know nothing about this guy, but are so judgmental on the basis of a tattoo. There are bikers, all kinds of people who have used that symbol, thinking it's just "cool" and fairly ignorant of the real statement it makes.

Are you aware that many white guys who go to prison have to join "aryan" gangs just to survive, even though they may not really believe in a neo-nazi philosophy. His tattoo could be leftover from a prison stay.


If he was friendly to you in spite of your overtly liberal stickers, isn't it possible that you are jumping to conclusions.

I really hate judging people on superficial first impressions.

how about this idea - order pizza again, and mention in a non-judgmental way that you saw the tattoo and are curious as to what it means.

[fujiyama]

54. .

[bunkerbuster1]

62. Ask him if he'd consider amending the tat

with a red circle around the swastika, and a red slash through it.

That's how I'd handle such an issue, if I'd been a neo-Nazi and seen the light. But that's just me.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

5. I was in a Taco Bell of all places and the manager ..........

who served me had a swastika tattooed between his thumb and index finger. Weird.

[celestia671]

6. There probably isn't anything to worry about..

However, you are right about the Neo Nazi movement in this country. It has been ignored by the media, who wants us to believe that our biggest threat is from terrorists overseas.

[Ian David]

18. Don't forget gay marriage and feral cats

It's that damn liberal-homosexual-terrorist-feral-cat-agenda that they want us to worry about.

And Spongebob.

Don't forget Spongebob.

[indepat]

7. So there's another pizza place you have to boycott

[bobthedrummer]

8. So are some local law-enforcement officers, it's that pervasive.

They are organized regionally.

[MADem]

9. Make your own

Or if that is too onerous, go to the supermarket, get an assortment of frozen pizzas, and then work on doctoring them. Our local supermarket makes pizza that, with a little oil, garlic, and this 'n that, comes out way better than anything you can get delivered in a box. Also, it is cheaper, and hotter when you sit down to eat it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

12. Yikes! In Mass?

:scared:

[theboss]

64. Why do people think Massachusetts is San Franciso?

It votes for liberal Democrats, but I would not advise a gay couple to make out in Southie unless you want Will Hunting's friends to beat you with ball bats. And I would not advise a black family to move into certains neighborhoods unless you want to be treated like Dee Brown and Bill Russell.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

66. Not true anymore. Southie is no longer white and Irish

and can you name any other state that has gay marriage?

[hnsez]

14. I wouldn't worry about it because:

Most Neo-Nazi's hate Bush as much as anyone

Just go read their forums

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

IN PARTICULAR:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=198647

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=196360&page=1&pp=10

[ultraist]

23. So what if they hate Bush! They beat and kill Blacks, Jews, and Gays!!!

[hnsez]

52. Yea I know, but he was worried about the anti-bush bumper stickers

[fujiyama]

55. Does that mean

we shouldn't be concerned by them?

WTF kind of reasoning is that? Just because someone hates Bush doesn't mean they're good...That too because they hate him for the WRONG reasons .

[hnsez]

67. this thread is about one particular person, not "we"

[Botany]

15. America = I disagree w/ what you say but I will defend to the

death your right to say it. If he has a swastika tattoo he is stupid .....
do not talk to him about anything and shop elsewhere ..... Do not
call the store ..... he could find out that you were the one who called ....
if you do see him around your property call the DA ..... good guess
Drugs and booze were in his system when he got inked.

[ultraist]

29. He has no right displaying that hate symbol in the workplace

It's against the law. But I agree with everything else you said. I wouldn't call to complain, but I would send in an anonymous written complaint and stop patronizing that establishment.

I can only imagine how the Black, Gay, and Jewish employees must feel having to work around this guy.

Turning a blind eye and being apathetic is wrong. We all have a duty to fight for eachother's rights.

[Ms. Toad]

44. Was the symbol displayed in the workplace?

"I ran into our pizza delivery guy at a restaurant today," seems to me like a non-workplace encounter. I didn't see anything indicating the swastika was visible while he was working.

I used to teach high school at a school with an all black student population (I taught one non-African American student in 11 years). Something I had a really hard time wrapping my head around was that African American kids would draw swastikas on papers to be turned in to the teacher who had spent time in a concentration camp, rather than recognizing their common discrimination at the hands of Nazis and similarly minded folks. I doubt most of these kids had any real idea of the impact of their actions, or that the Nazis whose symbols they were adopting would have gassed them as well. I can envision one of these kids also finding it amusing to get a swastika tattoo - not because they were neo-Nazis, but because they have experienced the powerful reaction the image triggers.

It sounded to me like the restaurant conversation was a friendly chance encounter, acknowledging a connection in another time and place. The guy probably didn't think about the swastika on his ankle, and how it might be perceived. Unless it was a recent tattoo I suspect it is just part of his skin with respect to any conscious awareness of it. As mentioned by several other posters, who knows what the history of his swastika is. If I had the energy at the time of the encounter (or any future encounter), I'd use the opportunity to strike up a conversation about how his swastika affects me. I don't always have the energy to have those conversations but when I do the results are often very positive.

[neebob]

16. I'm with your wife

Fortunately, there's always another pizza place - unless you live in a smaller town than I do and you're already boycotting five or six other pizza places.

[quinnox]

22. I wouldn't do anything

I would still order pizza from there. Pizza places usually have many different drivers and they can't be responsible for the politics of their employees so why punish them.

And if this guy seems nice enough maybe he just got the tatto for teenage reasons, like its a trendy thing at his high school or something.

[XemaSab]

24. He may have BEEN a nazi

but he may not still BE a nazi.

People have the right to be stupid, and then later change their minds.

Also, it looks to me like any jackass driving by your house has an idea of your politics.

I really wouldn't worry about him threatening your house, but you have the right to get pizza wherever you want.

[ultraist]

26. I agree with your wife: BOYCOTT that establishment

I'd also make a written complaint, anonymously. Send in a letter to the manager, the owner, and the main office HQ stating how you found this hate symbol offensive. I'd also mention that allowing that hate symbol to be displayed in their place of business opens themselves up to get sued; allowing it creates a hostile environment.

There are specific discrimination laws about hate symbols and other offensive displays and language (hostile environment) in the workplace. Recently, there was a case whereby an employee was banned from displaying a rebel flag.

Send copies of your letter to the Equal Employment Opportunity Office in your area.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. As long as you're white and don't look jewish, you should be fine.

And yeah, I'm kidding.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Dupe nt.

[AlienGirl]

28. Creepy! I think you should switch pizza places

Idiots have a right to be idiots. Just be glad he was willing to label himself so you know he might be a dangerous idiot!

Tucker

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Some people are just fucking DUMB. Witness my friends roommate in college:

...not too long after we all moved into the dorms, my new friend, who is Jewish, pulled me aside, and was, like "I've kind of got a problem with my roommate".. I thought maybe the guy wasn't picking up his underwear or something-- turns out the first night in the room, he was decorating his half, and he pulls out this Nazi Flag and starts putting it up on the wall! My buddy said something to the effect of, "what the fuck- sorry, you can't put that up". Now, this guy was COMPLETELY clueless as to why my friend might not want a big fat swastika on the wall of their room. Really. He had no idea what it meant, what it stood for... (This was a long time ago, but I can't imagine certain educational institutions have gotten much better.) He just thought it was "cool" and he had belonged to a "gang" in his hometown (of disaffected, wimpy white kids) that liked Nazi iconography. The kid wasn't a "Nazi", just a class-a clueless idiot.

So, after a few late nights pondering what to do, I suggested (Half of my family is Jewish, too, and I had relatives who died in the camps) we steal the flag and just burn it. Only time in my life I've burned a flag. Sure, it wasn't ours, but it felt pretty good.

[MsTryska]

34. maybe he's an ex-con....

and hat to join the nazis in order to not get gang-raped.

i guess that doesn't bode well for the security issues you have, but it is possible he's a NINO (nazi in name only)

[moondust]

35. Support a different pizza place. n/t

[R. A. Fuqua]

36. when I lived in the city (San Francisco)

I played pickup basketball in the park with a bunch of guys--mixed races--whoever showed up played (I am non-white myself).

A couple of the regular guys had the swastika on their ankles. Turned out--they were from the Richmond area ( a very tough area near SF) and had done time in prison for minor things years ago--where they got the tattoo--because in prison no matter who you are you can get beaten, raped, harassed, and even killed if you don't belong to a group. The groups in prison are based on race period. If you are a white man and go to prison--and you want any personal safety whatsoever, then you have to join an Aryan group. These guys were cool--I had no problem playing with them.

BTW, among Indian people (not American Indian--people who are FROM the country of India) the symbol has been used for more than 4000 years--it is a unity symbol. In India, Indians still use the symbol and no hatred, racism, or political statement is indicated. It is not our fault that the Nazi's coopted an old Indian symbol and associated so much evil with it.

[Dorian Gray]

39. Yes... important to remember.

I am not 100% sure, but I believe that the swastika is reversed in the Indian mystical tradition (or it was reversed when Hitler and the Nazis incorporated it as their symbol). But, it was from that tradition that Hitler borrowed the symbol, and perverted it for his own use.

Perhaps someone knows more about this than I do.

A link to Wikipedia on the basic history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[R. A. Fuqua]

41. my sister has a PhD in

art history--I wish she was here to help me out--I have heard her explain the origins etc of this symbol--but unfortunately, I tend to forget that kind of stuff pretty quickly.

I do know--the symbol is for unity--which is probably why the Nazi party choose it--(Hitler ran for office on a platform of unifying Germany).

So it was a fitting symbol for them to choose at that point--but it really never was a symbol of hate--it just became linked so closely to the evil of the Nazi's that it has become a symbol of hate to most people.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

45. I think if the symbol is pointing counterclockwise .......

then it has an occult or cultural significance. However if the points are in a clockwise direction then it has a fascist meaning.

[indie_voter]

46. Yes. I think Hitler reversed it.

Are you of Indian origin? I am too.

I spent many summers in India when I was younger (I am 40+ now, born and raised in the US). I used to see the swastika drawn in chalk in front of entry ways, etc in India, my parents had to explain it to me.

It was a symbol of peace/unity until it was co-opted by the Nazis. Sadly, from the moment Hitler took it, it means death,destruction and hate to the western world.

Sort of OT, I am in a mixed race marriage, my children are half Jewish/half Hindu (albeit raised by atheists ;) ) So the symbol has meaning in both of their heritages. One evil, the other not. :(

[R. A. Fuqua]

49. yes--I am of Indian origin--

it is great to meet someone with a similar background. My family came to Canada when I was five, I lived in Vancouver until I was a sophomore in college.

During my sophomore year--I came to California for a visit--and fell so deeply in love with this beautiful place that I have remained here. I finished college then graduate school at Berkley and have lived in this general area ever since. I am a permanent resident of the US who is striving toward citizenship.

I have been fortunate enough to have several extensive visits to India--my graduate work was in Environmental Science and as part of my dissertation project, I went to India and studied the impact of pollution on the population of vultures in India.

I don't know everything about the symbol--I do know that to the Western world it will be forever (or at least for a long time) linked to hatred and horror. But--in the Eastern world it really did not originate as a symbol of hate.

I would never display one myself--and I do think that here in the Western world it would be offensive to display the symbol. (I have strong ties to the Jewish religion myself, a very dear cousin married an Orthodox Jew and he has raised his children to be Orthodox--and I have to say that his family represents the very best people in my family--and they are the cousins that I love the most).

As far as the original posting, it is hatred that I worry about--not symbols. The meaning of symbols depends on how they are used and who uses them--it changes over time.

[indie_voter]

65. I agree

"The meaning of symbols depends on how they are used and who uses them--it changes over time."

True, but it is going to take centuries (maybe longer, if ever) before the Swastika can be reclaimed as a positive symbol.

Sort of OT, a pretty good link on the Swastika symbol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[BBradley]

37. Why don't you talk to him?

Ask him what the tattoo is about?

[Danocrat]

40. Suggestion

Eat more Chinese.

[ReadTomPaine]

42. Whatever you do, don't get sausage on your pizza! (n/t)

[tinonedown]

43. Don't worry

If he has an idea of your politics and did not avoid you but rather introduced himself in public, he probably is harmless. No sense being prejudice. In fact, if you like the pizza, I would continue to order from the establishment.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Protagoras]

50. Maybe this is a radical idea...but if it really makes you curious

why not just ask him about it? I see all sorts of theories and assumptions. But if I see someone doing or showing something that makes me curious...I just ask a casual, non-judgemental or threatening question. People who apply body markings usually do so to make some sort of statement. They are usually willing to explain it/defend it/apologize for it if you're decent enough to just ask them straight up without coming acrossed like a rabid attack dog.

Maybe..."Wow that's quite the tattoo you have there, did it hurt to get that?" Then let him respond. Maybe he'll answer and make all the anxiety go away. Maybe he'll say something nutty and verify your worst fears. Either way you can simply say "Oh wow. Thanks for explaining, have a nice day" and go about your business.

Then you can choose to buy your pizza wherever you want. But at least you'll know.

[Stinky The Clown]

51. Simplest course of action ... don't delivery pizza from anyone

The drivers speed through our neigborhood all the time. I will not contribute tot hat. I don't care what the pizza shop is ... I just don't order delivery ... I go pick it up myself.

[entanglement]

53. Frankly, I don't worry too much about Neo-Nazis

They are (and will always remain) a fringe group. IMHO Neo-Nazis et al do much less harm to people of color than do racists posing as 'regular' people in positions of power (entrenched systemic racism). I strongly believe that the exaggerated importance given to current day Neo-Nazis / Klansmen is because White people have created a racist 'other' to convince themselves they're not racist. "See...we're not one of those evil Skinheads / Nazis / Klansmen, so we aren't racist." Of course society should keep tabs on the activities of such extremists, but it helps to remember that defining 'racist' in extreme, narrow terms actually hurts the fight against racism.
I know this is not a popular opinion but that's the way I see it.

[fujiyama]

57. That's an interesting way

of looking at it. I think you have a good point.

Racism is purpotrated in very subtle ways, like in terms of home loans and self segregation - it doesn't necessarily mean burning a cross on someone's lawn or spray painting grafitti of a swastika on someone's garage.

[Ian David]

58. I could find his home and paint rainbow flags and jewish stars on it

I bet that's something that's never been done!




Obviously, I'm kidding.

[CalebHayes]

56. Nice car.

[Bridget Burke]

59. Your pizza guy has a hideously ugly tattoo.

Ask him about it.

You don't really know he's a neo-Nazi unless he tells you so. However, he may have a misspent youth & prison time behind him.

Perhaps you shouldn't order pizza at all--strangers will know where you live!

[LiberallyInclined]

60. DiGiorno.

http://www.kraftfoods.com/html/brands/digiorno/digiorno_index.html?B=17&L=4

[theboss]

63. My friend's brother fucked up in his teens

One of my best friends from high school is very smart, very driven, and very All-American. He worked in DC for a few years for one of DU's biggest heros then moved back home with his wife to work in a start-up industry as their political liason. He couldn't be more liberal or more straight-laced.

His brother is the black sheep (though a very sweet and charming guy underneath the madness). In his teens, he got big into drugs, knocked a girl up, and started hanging with a really sketchy group of bikers. One drunken night, they convinced him to add an iron cross and some other Nazi-lite tatoos to his arms. A few years later, he's cleaned himself up, gotten married, and is trying to lead a normal life. He's been working to get the tattoos removed or at least covered up but it's a long and expensive process. You can tell he really regrets them but he's forced to live with the consequences.

Anyway, if you are really uncomfortable, stop buying pizza from that place. I've never lived anywhere with a shortage of pizza shops.

[sellitman]

68. Get The Door......

It's Domino's

[formernaderite]

69. I know a biker who's not a Neo-nazi...but in his collection

of tattoos he's also got a swastika. Over some beers I asked him about it...in his early twenties he used to be a Buddhist, no lie. It's some sort of Buddhist talisman...looks pretty much like a swastika, but apparently it's a little different. So, my advice is don't jump to conclusions.

People also get pretty stupid tattoos when they're drunk to boot.