Does anyone think GM has a chance for survival? Dan Neil, the

[KlatooBNikto]

knowledgeable Automotive Correspondent of LA Times thinks GM is as good as dead.He wants a wholesale firing of GM's top management, including Rick Wagoner, CEO and Bob Lutz, Vice Chair.GM, in retaliation, has suspended all advertising on LA Times. Looks like the truth hurts these incompetents.

[LuckyTheDog]

1. Naah

A company with as much U.S. market share and the global reach as GM still has can hardly be referred to as "good as dead." New leadership? Sure, it needs that for sure. I hope the board acts. But there is nothing inevitable about GM's demise. They have a lot to work with - a heck of a lot. Personally, I'd like to see it do a merger (Toyota?). That would shake up the culture and bring in fresh ideas.

And no, I do not own any of GM's stock. But if the price goes lower, I might be tempted to buy some.

[serryjw]

2. If they are not dead now

they will be in 2007 when China imports cars to the US. If they come out with low cost hybrid and can produce them quickly they will corner the market. Toy's Prius is re-selling at the same or higher original cost. Wait until we hit $3/gallon

[LuckyTheDog]

5. Toyota is a good company

I recently bought 40 shares of their stock (I could not afford more). The whole vehicle sector is cheap now, which means it is a good time to buy the best auto stocks. And for my money, they are the best auto maker in the world. So, when I went shopping for an auto stock, the choice seemed clear. But of course, read the prospectus before you invest. :)

[solinvictus]

9. I just sold a twenty year old Tercel to my dad...

can you say that many 1985 GM's are on the road? Likely not.

[enid602]

3. GM

I think GM's eventual survival will unfortunately depend on their ability to free themselves of pension and benefits liabilities. We saw this last year with the major airlines. Just one more illustration of how desperately we need to keep our traditional social security system in place.

[Eloriel]

4. I can't say I'm comfortable with your prescription

seems a little corporatist to me. But then, what do I know? Who says there should be any limits on corporate profits or top exec salaries and golden parachutes and so forth and so on, right?

:puke:

[LuckyTheDog]

8. National health NOW

You can expect industry to be openly calling for national health very soon. I have read that the most costly "raw material" in a GM-made car is health care. For Japanese companies, the most costly raw material is steel.

[KlatooBNikto]

10. My prescription for GM, short of a merger with Toyota, would be this:

1. Get the Union and the Retiress to give concessions on wages, benefits ( health insurance and retirement).
2.In return, cut all top management salaries to no greater than One Million.
3.Eliminate all management bonuses and stock options until GM's stock or profits reach a certain pre agreed level.

4.Eliminate all dividends until... ditto.

5. Get all suppliers to cut prices by 5-10% across the board.

These would be the absolute minimum requirements. Of course, GM's recovery would require a great deal more than this, especially in developing quality and appealing products. That could rescue or sink the company depending on what kind of prducts hit the market.GM's idea of product devlopment is to appoint a committee to study things to death and come up with a product that is supposed to appeal to a wide segment of our society.Let us face it.That needs to be changed.GM needs to show boldness in its styling and make a clean break with its past.

[LuckyTheDog]

11. OK, but do this

Give the UAW some equity in the company and a seat on the board in exchange.

[KlatooBNikto]

12. That is a very good idea.

On Edit: And welcome to DU!

[LuckyTheDog]

27. The UAW got a board seat at Chrysler at one point

It was a condition of the bail-out. I am not sure if the arrangement survived into the DCX era. But I think it is usually unethical to ask workers to give up wages and benefits and get nothing in return that would allow them to benefit if the company rebounds.

Providing workers and/or the union with stock would allow labor to directly benefit from the "upside potential" of the investment their concessions represent. Otherwise, they have to rely on management to agree to a better contract when/if times get better -- and there is no guarantee that they will.

[jbm]

20. I see a potential problem with your 5th point...

The highest paying employer in our town is the factory that makes wheels for GM. Because the steel prices skyrocketed this year, the costs to manufacture the wheels increased by hundreds of thousands of dollars. The factory appealed to general motors, who agreed to cover the increased cost of the steel for one year, which would give the factory time to reasses it's costs and prices. I'm not sure it would be feasible to expect that the suppliers could reduce prices when there is a strong possibility that the suppliers are hovering on the edge of bankruptcy themselves.

[KlatooBNikto]

23. Usually, when a supplier encounters sudden rise in raw material or energy

costs, an escalator clause is used to protect the supplier.

[KG]

6. gee, pulling advertising - that will help sales!

obviously, GM is run by idiots.

[natrat]

7. they bought Fiat a few years ago for 2billion

they just paid another 2 billion to get out of the deal-true idiots

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

13. Hummer

Isn't the Hummer a GM?

[KlatooBNikto]

14. Yes.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. The Hummer (that name ... sheesh) H2 is a gussied up Chevy truck

A Chevy Suburban in Rambo clothing

[Fescue4u]

22. despite you might think of Hummer,

Its one of GM bright spots.

See my post below, virtually nothing is going right for GM, if they were not so large, they would be long dead by now.

But the hummer is actually quite profitable, and with the war going on, they should be getting plenty of orders.

But one specialty vehicle line cannot save this company.

[Guy Fawkes]

16. If GM goes under, the city I live in will go under.

They are the second largest employer in town- the largest is the HMO-run hospital.

[KlatooBNikto]

18. Throughout the Midwest, the pain will spread. But that is exactly what

happened when the steel industry went under in the 80's.

[chaumont58]

17. This is a story of good ole Yankee knowhow, huh

Regardless of survival or not, the story of thier decline boggles the mind. GM use to design, build and sell good cars. The Caddys from the 50s were a real status symbols. I think the most beautiful American car I have ever seen was the 1958 Chevy Impala. The 1965 Chevy was an eye catcher. It seems things went to shit in the 70s and 80s. It wasn't just GM that went bad. Ford in those years was interprupted to mean Found On the Road Dead or Fix Or Repair Daily. They went from being car makers to being bean counters.
I remember hearing about what was supposedly a conversation between a Ford engineer and a GM engineer at a party. One said, "I don't think we are doing our customers a favor building these bad cars." The other replied, "Our customers aren't the car buyers. Our customers are Wall Street."
Whatevers happens, I sure management will find a way to blame it on labor unions, or government regulation or any god damn thing but themselves.

[KlatooBNikto]

21. It is sad, isn't it, that management has destroyed the pride people

felt in building the products because the bean counters belittled that work. I have actually heard a bean counter tell me " Cars, aircraft, bananas are all the same to me.If I can make a profit selling bananas, I will do it".No wonder the workers felt that their work was not appreciated and the result inevitably was the crap that we see with GM's brands.

[Fescue4u]

19. GM won't be in 10 years.

Easily the worst ran big company that I've ever had the displeasure of doing business with.

Their products are crap, they are not selling (even with their newest designs), they are flooding their own market with massive incentives, have horrid horrid corporate culture (culture of intimidation), have poor relations with their union, have a MASSIVE healthcare burden and are supporting more retirees than actual employees.

There is virtually NOTHING going right for GM right now.

If GM were to liquate all their assetts (land, factorys, inventory), and just put the money into a passbook savings account, they would earn far more money than they are now.

20 years ago, this company was losing $300,000 in auto parts per PLANT, per year. lost..and is gone and never seen again (thats just the tip of the iceberg of mismanagement), Im sure that figure is well over a million by now.

fwiw, my brother is a union leader at GM and my dad is a retiree...so it would be a terrible burden on our family is GM were to sink.

At the same time however, I've worked for GM as an employee (short time 20 years ago), and I've done business with them. I truly HATE dealing with their management.

Id rather poke my eyes out than sit down and work with those people again. I've NEVER seen upper management treat their employees and partners with such discontempt as they do. These people think nothing of cussing out and belitting anyone that gets in their way.

So while Id love to see GM crash and burn and take the executive team out with it, I know thats NOT what would happen.

It'll crash and burn IMO, but the employees will suffer, not management.

[nolabels]

24. I hope they do keep them idiots and go under in the process

I just got a notice from the teamster local, they were offering this great auto insurance (they said). Took me a little reading but then that little nugget of info came, it said "GMAC" and I said :thumbsdown:

I never will forget taking over the old mortgage on my folks house which they had them buried in a mountain of debt with. Them EFFERs at GMAC screwed around our escrow company an extra week (didn't want to give a payoff #) just to get that extra 1,300 of interest to kick in for them. I hate them dirty bastards. I hate working on their cars, their financial wing is rotten and they have been exporting good American jobs to other countries wholesale. So what's not to like about them :shrug:

[jakefrep]

25. I would rather drive anything made by GM...

...than a Toyota or Honda. GM cars are NOT crap. I don't understand the mystique around Toyota and Honda. Their cars are boring and ugly, and of no better quality.

That said, all of the big 3 will continue to have problems as long as they continue to put most of their eggs in the big truck/SUV basket.

[KlatooBNikto]

26. The NYT says that right now there is a worldwide overcapacity for

automobiles of, get this, 36 million new cars per year! And that does not even take into account what the Chinese and Indians are going to dump into our markets.In a fragmented market with this much overcapacity, a dinosaur like GM stands out like a sore thumb and its competitors smell blood in the water.GM's cars may well be of good quality as you say,but in cars, as in many products, perception matters.GM is now associated with old people's taste, a death sentence when it comes to selling to the 19-30 year olds.

[LuckyTheDog]

28. You are right

GM cars are NOT crap. But they have fallen into the trap of imitating the Japanese and putting out boring vehicles (like the Pontiac G6). The Japanese have managed to sell lots of boring cars because they are perceived as better quality. But GM needs to stir the passions of the buyer with cool, American-style cars. What I like about Toyota is that they are finally putting out some fairly cool cars. They also are leading the way in hybrid technology and they seem to be a very well-run company.

That said, however, I have to say that my last two cars have been Pontiacs and I have owned others. I just like them. But to me, the G6 is just NOT representative of the Pontiac I used to know.

[KlatooBNikto]

30. When you are losing market share, your options in introducing new

and bold looking cars dwindle because you just can't afford to throw the dice.The dilemma for GM is either make a clean break with its past and introduce cars with sex appeal and risk going under or stay in neutral and die a slow death in the marketplace.

[buckup]

29. Ugh!

No no no no... Remember when SAAB started being managed by GM? The SAAB cars all went downhill, and are now based on GM chasis, and are being cheapened. Toyota's way too good for GM and their constantly over-heating cars.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. The "new" SAABs are not SAABs.

They are junk, unfortunately - especially when compared to the old SAABs. The 9000 was the last "real" SAAB in my book. I used to own a "classic" 900. That thing was a tank. Expensive to maintain, but it never had a single mechanical fault, and only experienced degradation on the interior, which makes sense considering that I frequently took it to the desert in summer (not the best place for scandanavian cars)

[sendero]

31. Whether dead or not...

... you can take this to the bank.

The managament will not be held accountable. Sure, a few may lose their jobs but so what - they will retire with a multi-million dollar compensation package.

Once you make it near the top of American business, your company might fail but you won't. And folks wonder why our business leaders make bad decision after bad decision - there's no conseqence, that's why.

[KlatooBNikto]

32. Good point.That applies in politics too.Accountability is a thing of the

past unless you are a lowly peon.

[natrat]

34. maybe i am reading this wrong

but it seems there was a buy american/american pride tone there for a few years and now alot of folks dont feel that way. Unfortunatly i am amongst them.

[buckup]

35. I've never been able to feel that pride...

Since I was born in 1983, and all the reliable cars I've ever known were from Japanese-based auto-makers. Toyota, Nissan, Honda....

My 1990 Nissan Maxima was advertised as "the most trouble-free car in America"... It's 15 years later, and it is still $*%&ing fast, the only major repair (replacing the radiator), was because I idiotically had a fender-bender, the WEATHER STRIPPING IS STILL GOOD, and it still averages 20 miles per gallon.

Believe me, I long for at day when I can buy a Chevy and call it "reliable"... but my grandpa's Malibu Maxx's interior is cheaply built, my friend's Saturn SL2 that's 10 years old constantly over-heats, and the Chevy Celebrity we used to have (which sold MANY more units than my Maxima)... is an EXTREMELY rare sight on the road.

Maybe if GM had some pride, and made better quality cars.... *sigh*

[Zynx]

36. Not as it currently exists - they need to go into Chapter 11 reorg.

There are a huge number of things they need to fix.