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CAMANY Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-05 08:42 PM
Original message
Is it constitutional to ban ammo?
Would it in theory be constitutional to ban all ammunition? The 2nd amendment only mentions arms... not the ammunition for the arms...
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. arms implies all arm accessories
ammo, sharpening stones, lazer energy packs
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Shadowen Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Yet certain types of ammo are illegal.
Or at least highly restricted. Dragonsbreath, flechette shells, and I dare you to try and get your hands on DU rounds.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. i have a stockpile of black talons
my uncle bought when they were legal
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-05 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Is it Constitutional to ban computers?
The First Amendment only covers free speech and the press. Since we're not members of the press, we don't need computers or typewriters to express our opinions.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-05 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nothing in the Constitution would allow such a ban IMO
The federal government has the power to regulate interstate commerce in anything. In some cases that power has been stretched to the point where certain things like pharmaceuticals and nuclear materials on down to machine guns are regulated everywhere even when they are not transferred interstate. But the government does not have the power to arbitrarily ban things outright. Even the items mentioned above can be acquired legally.
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Paul Dlugokencky Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-05 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not a ban, but...
Senator Daniel Patrick Moynahan of New York proposed raising a tax on bullets to pay for the health costs due to gun violence.



http://www.cafepress.com/kickindemocrats
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. He's proposed that every year for about 20 years
Edited on Mon Apr-18-05 08:51 PM by slackmaster
And basically been laughed out of committee every time.

It doesn't make much sense. Must bullets are never involved in gun violence, most guns are never used in gun violence, and most gun owners never commit a violent crime.

His proposal would be like taxing all people who drive to cover health costs created by drunk drivers.
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Gothmog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-05 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Second Amendment does provide for individual right
First, the second amendment specifically has not been incorporated by the 14th Amendment as being app liable to the states. This means that any state can ban guns or amnos with worry about the Second Amendment.

Second, there is a split of authority but the better reasoned case holds that there is no individual right under the second amendment. The Second Amendment is a collective right applying only to the National Guard. Even Tribe who advocates an individual right has stated that the individual right if any is very weak and that all know forms or conceivable forms of gun control are permissible.
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Leftest Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. The Right To Keep & Bear Arms.. (A Legal Review)
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 01:03 AM by Leftest


My first thought of the Bill Of Rights is: It is an addition to the Constitution with ONE protagonist causing its creation. To list a certain select list of rights so that all others may be protected from arbitrary government. It is impossible for me to draw from the phrase "the right of the 'people' to keep and bear arms" as actually referring to the right of the 'state' to keep and bear arms, as collective rights theorists suggest.

But is there any clarification as to the 'intent' of our founding fathers pertaining to this amendment? Is there clarification from the Supreme court? Is there any clarification in our laws by which we can cross-reference, to determine the intent of the second amendment? The answers are: Yes, yes and yes...

____________________________________________________________



    The Second Amendment: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


First of all as we can see, there are two separate phrases making up the second amendment, and it is clear that the first one is subordinate to the other and merely gives reason for the necessity of the other. But collective rights' theorists insist that the first one restricts the right only to the states through their National Guards and doesn't extend to the individual themselves, despite the fact that the overwhelming theme of the Bill Of Rights is to preserve individual rights.

So as I stated above: Is there any clarification?

Well, since collective rights theorists only argument is the addition of the phrase "A well regulated militia" in the subordinate clause, lets delve straight into the law to see whether or not if we can't find any clarification of what the law defines a militia as.

If you go into the U.S. Code, you will find a section titled "Militia: composition and classes" (link provided)

US CODE: Title 10 Section 31: http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html

    "(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

    (b) The classes of the militia are—

    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.


Notice that the law defines the militia as composing of two separate categories: The organized militia and the unorganized militia. And as we can see; the unorganized militia is composed of individual male citizens between the ages of 17 through 45 years of age.

Now I know what you are thinking. You're probably thinking: "So are you saying that men over 45yrs of age, or women in general don't have equal rights to another class of citizens?" And the answer to that is NO, that is not what I am saying at all, and I will make that clear below.




U.S. SUPREME COURT CASES:

Next, is there any clarification from the U.S. Supreme Court? And as I stated above - yes there is, and here's a few examples.



United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876): http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=92&invol=542

This was the first case in which the Supreme Court had the opportunity to interpret the Second Amendment. The Court recognized that the right of the people to keep and bear arms was a right which existed prior to the Constitution when it stated that such a right:

    "is not a right granted by the Constitution . . . neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence."

The indictment in Cruikshank charged, inter alia, a conspiracy by Klansmen to prevent blacks from exercising their civil rights, including the bearing of arms for lawful purposes. The Court held, however, that because the right to keep and bear arms existed independent of the Constitution, and the Second Amendment guaranteed only that the right shall not be infringed by Congress, the federal government had no power to punish a violation of the right by a private individual; rather, citizens had "to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow-citizens" of their right to keep and bear arms to the police power of the state.

Now I know what some of you are probably thinking. That the Supreme Court just said that the States can legislate laws restricting rights to keep and bear arms. Well I am sorry, but if that's what you're thinking, you would be in error. Because, besides US v. Cruikshank stating that the right to keep and bear arms is a right not dependent on the Constitution; meaning that the right to keep and bear arms is an Unalienable Right; there are also other cases that address the issue of States in this matter.


So now that brings us to:


Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886): http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=116&invol=252

Although the Supreme Court affirmed the holding in Cruikshank that the Second Amendment, standing alone, applied only to action by the federal government, it nonetheless found the states without power to infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms, holding that:

    "the States cannot, even laying the constitutional provision in question out of view, prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms, as so to deprive the United States of their rightful resource for maintaining the public security and disable the people from performing their duty to the general government."

Presser, moreover, plainly suggested that the Second Amendment applies to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment and thus that a state cannot forbid individuals to keep and bear arms. To understand why, it is necessary to understand the statutory scheme the Court had before it.

The statute under which Presser was convicted did not forbid individuals to keep and bear arms but rather forbade: "bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities and towns unless authorized by law . . . ."

Thus, the Court concluded that the statute did not infringe the right to keep and bear arms.

The Court, however, went on to discuss the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, noting that: "it is only the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States that the clause relied on was intended to protect."

As the Court had already held that the substantive right to keep and bear arms was not infringed by the Illinois statute since that statue did not prohibit the keeping and bearing of arms but rather prohibited military-like exercises by armed men, the Court concluded that it did not need address the question of whether the state law violated the Second Amendment as applied to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment.



And now let us not forget the most recent U.S. Supreme Court case:


U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939): http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=307&invol=174

This is the only case in which the Supreme Court has had the opportunity to apply the Second Amendment to a federal firearms statute. The Court, however, carefully avoided making an unconditional decision regarding the statute's constitutionality; it instead devised a test by which to measure the constitutionality of statutes relating to firearms and remanded the case to the trial court for an evidentiary hearing (the trial court had held that Section 11 of the National Firearms Act was unconstitutional). The Court remanded to the case because it had concluded that:

    "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.


Thus, for the keeping and bearing of a firearm to be constitutionally protected, the firearm should be a militia-type arm, i.e. the common arms of the time, and today that would mean an M-16 rifle - (selective-fire simi automatic / fully automatic).

The very word "militia" itself refers to a military action, and this is what the second amendment, as well as U.S. v. Miller is referring to: The right of the people to form a well regulated militia for the common defense of the country and bearing the individual common arms of the time. (So NO this does not mean indiscriminate crew served weapons).

As sited above; the U.S. Code as well as U.S. v. Miller case makes it clear that the militia consists of: "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense" and also in Miller that: "when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."

And in Miller, in setting forth this definition of the militia, the Court implicitly rejected the view that the Second Amendment guarantees a right only to those individuals who are members of the militia. Had the Court viewed the Second Amendment as guaranteeing the right to keep and bear arms only to: "all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense," it would certainly have discussed whether, on remand, there should also be evidence that the defendants met the qualifications for inclusion in the militia, much as it did with regard to the militia use of a short-barrelled shotgun. Because of course as referenced above in USC 10, 31 the defendants did.

So now after reviewing the U.S. Code Title 10 Section 31 and U.S. v. Miller. It is clear that the second amendment only guarantees the right for the organized and unorganized militia to keep and bear the common arms of the time for the common defense of the country. And after reviewing U.S. v. Cruikshank and Presser v. Illinois, as well as numerous quotes from our founding fathers - that the keeping and bearing of personal private arms is an unalienable right not dependent on any document because it is a human right that existed prior to any document. And that means you too ladies as well as men over the age of 45.

I know that many of you may not like what I pointed out, but that is our laws as they are written; and it is very important that we not allow ourselves to hypocritally selective only the rights by which we favor, to choose to protect. To do so undermines all of our other rights.

And not to forget to mention that if it is our honorable goal to curtail gun violence; let us not fall into the trap that by outlawing guns this will be accomplished. For repeated history teaches us that the criminal does not abide by laws (of course this is what makes him a criminal), and so long as there is a market for something, whether it be illegal or not, there will always be a supplier ready to meet the demand. And we can see examples of this in the case of alcohol prohibition, the war on drugs and also with guns in places in the world where guns are outlawed.




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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
9. No, A gun without ammo is just a steel tube. With ammo it is an "arm"
A weapon is not "armed" till it is loaded. Think about it. It is in the wording.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Ammo is an integral part of the weapon, so a qualified no...
that only applies if you believe the 2nd amendment grants a right for INDIVIDUALS to bear arms of any kind. There are many people who believe it is only intended to authorize militias of the sort that were common at the time of the Constitution's writing.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I believe it grants
All citizens the right to own a weapon. The idea was the people could defend against attacks by Indians or a foreign power if needed. If a foreign power attacks and launched an invasion into the US, I think the idea, even today, is to have willing citizens take up their arms against the invader.

Today that idea is out of mesh with the modern concept of warfare, but back then it would have been more accepted. Don't forget that a large part of Jackson's success at New Orleans was because the common man took up arms on the wall to fight as well.

That said, I can say with confidence that this applied to arms that could be carried and stored by one man. A cannon is a tad heavy for a man, and could be easily classified as not being an arm, but artillery. Same with modern grenades and rockets.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I do not, and if I thought it did, I would support its repeal.
I have spent enough time in countries where handguns are banned that I am utterly convinced that banning them makes for a much safer society.

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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Fair enough. We can disagree on these points in our Party.
As Will Rogers said: "I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat." :shrug:
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deadcenter Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. a couple to quotes
from the founding fathers:

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." THOMAS
JEFFERSON, Proposal for a Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson
Papers, 334 (C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are
left in full possession of them." ZACHARIA JOHNSON, 3 Elliot,
Debates at 646.

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that
they be properly armed." ALEXANDER HAMILTON, The Federalist
Papers at 184-8.

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is
able might have a gun." PATRICK HENRY, 3 Elliot, Debates at 386.

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans
possess over the people of almost every other nation...
Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several
kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public
resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the
people with arms." JAMES MADISON, Federalist Papers, #46.

I look at the 2nd amendment in the Bill of Rights, as the guarantee that the government will remain in fear of the people rising up to overthrow it in the event the government attempts to infringe on the other 9.

deadcenter

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are
not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the
spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty
must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots
and tyrants." THOMAS JEFFERSON, letter to William S. Smith,
1787, in S. Padover (Ed.), Jefferson, On Democracy (1939), p. 20.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. The founding fathers were wrong about slavery.
And they may have been wrong about guns. I fully support a complete ban on handguns for civilians.

My positions are based on what I believe to be right, not what is popular in the ultra-right-wing, Wild-West USA.
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Leftest Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. VTMechEngr
Edited on Tue Apr-19-05 01:20 AM by Leftest

I know its a little lengthy, but I give my best comprehensive breakdown of the Second Amendment above. And I believe I show pretty much how the law applies to what you are pretty much saying..

The Second Amendment is the oldest subject that I have researched and debated over many years, and I know that there are many people who don't like the implications of what I have to say about it. But I think it is quite clear what the law and our founding fathers have said about it.

I wish more people would see its importance as you do.. ;)


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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. It is an issue that will cause flames for years to come.
Usually it is not a problem. I can still be a card carrying member of the ACLU, support equal rights for LBGT, support the right to choice, oppose the facists and theocrats that control our government right now and still have some fun on the weekends putting .45 holes in paper sheets.

A lot of my sympathy to LBGT folks is from being a RKBA guy. They have the closet society tries to shut them into, we RKBA guys have ours to hide our views from our own. Through it all, I'm still a loyal Democrat and will be for all time. When the NRA came calling last week, I told them to go to hell. I'm sure you see that they are not a neutral party in politics to our side.

Lots of Democrats own firearms, but stay quiet for the above reason. Perhaps it is time to speak up.
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Leftest Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Here, here..
I completely agree..
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-05 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
17. No, It takes a pipe AND cannabis to get stoned
In the drugs war, the ammunition for the weapon, be it needle, pipe or
bong, is unconstitutional to ban. We have the right to bear arms
in the drugs war.
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