Interesting point. Kerry's action in Vietnam versus Ratzinger's in Germany

[theboss]

Kerry volunteered as an adult for what I am sure most of us agree was an immoral war.

Ratzinger was conscripted as a team for what was without a doubt an immoral war.

Kerry is credited by the army with 20 official "kills."
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0421041kerry1.html

Ratzinger has stated that he never fired a shot.

Kerry as an adult in a free society had to have a greater understanding of the war before he joined than a child in an autocratic society.

Now, I'm not comparing the President to the Pope. They are very different roles.

But, to be consistent, shouldn't we have objected to the fact that our nominee volunteered to kill 20 people in an unjust war?

[demnan]

1. Watch out for the flames.

You just offended two groups with one blow (I agree with you by the way).

:popcorn:

[theboss]

5. I like Kerry and voted for Kerry

I just think it's an interesting argument.

I should really be a law professor somewhere.

[RPM]

50. unless your JD is from Harvard or Yale

and you are at the top of the class there, keep dreaming along with me...

[Jacobin]

2. He redeemed himself in my eyes by working tirelessly to

stop the Viet Nam conglagration.

He may have been credited with 20 kills.

I wonder how many innocent Vietnamese and American's lives he saved by helping to end the war.

And you are right. He's not being considered for Pope. He was to be elected as commander in chief of an army, whose function is to kill people.

[Dhalgren]

3. You're right.

There is no comparison between president and pope.

[GumboYaYa]

4. I agree and made the same point in a different thread.

There are plenty of other reasons to object to Ratzinger. There is no reason for us to fall to the same level of intellectual dishonesty as the Repubs.

[theboss]

8. I may have stole this idea from you

But I thought it deserved to be fleshed out in its own thread.

I tried to start a discussion on Ratzinger's theology which sank like a stone. That would require thought.

It's easier to scream, "Nazi! Nazi!"

Anyway, it always disaoppoints me when we have some objectionable person and simply choose the weakest yet most titilating complaint.

I actually felt this way in the campaign when it became a debate of who was more honorable in 1968. Here you had George Bush who spent a lifetime partying and living off his dad's name, who then stumbled intow the Governor's office and had no real success and who then had a first time that combined the worst terrorist attack in American history, a failing economy, and a disastrous war based on lies....and we worry about what he was doing in Alabama in the 60s.

[GumboYaYa]

9. It is what I call "Clarence Thomas" syndome.

Screaming Nazi is an easy way to object, but in the end diminishes the strength of real substantive arguments. It is the same syndrome that let people challenge Thomas b/c of Anita Hill when the real issue was that he is not qualified to sit on the Supreme Court.

The real issue here is that Ratzinger is a conservative ideologue who will alienate large portions of the church while at the same time embolding its more conservative elements.

[theboss]

17. Precisely...it's intellectual laziness

I call it FoxNews Syndrome though it has been happening for years.

If you ever want to weep, read the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Today, the two of them would be on Hardball screaming "Slave-holder!" and "Nigger-lover!" at each other.

[bunkerbuster1]

6. Kerry shouldn't be Pope

...and Ratfucker shouldn't be helping W get elected.

there, that was simple.

[BOSSHOG]

7. He didn't volunteer to kill 20 people

He volunteered to serve his country during time of War. A trait I find admirable, having spent 24 years in uniform myself. I find his actions extremely honorable during his time in Vietnam and his objections afterword. His service is easily and favorably compared to others who are enjoying constitutional liberties in this country today and who are striving to undermine those liberties. I'd serve with LT Kerry anyday.

[Dawgs]

12. Agree...

It's really easy to say that Kerry joined an unjust war... almost forty years after the fact. Judging Kerry like this is the same as judging all of our soldiers. I completely disagree with this.

I do agree that the Pope should not be condemned for joining the Hitler army. He should be condemned for defending pedophiles and being anti-women.

[GumboYaYa]

20. I don't think the intent of the post is actually to suggest that Kerry

is not fit for office because he volunteered. It is merely intended to point out the intellectual dishonesty of people who supported Kerry but now condemn Ratzinger, when the circumstances of Kerry's volunteering as an adult are arguably more egregious than Ratzinger being drafted at 14.

[PsN2Wind]

23. Good point Chief

Many here don't seem to realize that at the time of Kerry's enlistment, 1966 I believe, the truth about the Viet Nam war wasn't well known. There were many who enlisted thinking that it was in the best interest of their country but relatively few that had the balls to return to the States and help bring out the truth.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bushisanidiot]

10. Military recruits in the 60's were disillusioned into thinking the war

was just and that america was always on the side of right.. it wasn't til after Kerry had boots on the ground and experienced the injustice firsthand that he realized it was wrong.

signing up for combat was a brave thing for Kerry to do.. much different than President Pussy who had his daddy do everything possible to keep him out of harm's way.

Kerry returned from the war, seeing the error of his and the U.S. military's ways.. there is much honor in that.

President AWOL George Bush has never apologized or admitted to making mistakes regarding his military "career".. he knows he's a coward and thinks it will stay hidden as long as he avoids talking about it.

Kerry talks about his past in the military. He has nothing to hide and has opened his military past for all to see.

Look what's happening today: Kerry continues to fight for veterans' rights and fights to protect our values. AWOL Bush is cutting veterans' benefits right and left because he HATES the military and america.

[GumboYaYa]

15. Hitler had one of the finest propaganda machines ever assembled.

Don't you suspect that many young Germans thought what they were doing was right? Are they excused b/c they bought the propaganda?

[bushisanidiot]

19. Hitler targeted a group of people for extermination. No, I don't forgive

those who were so clueless that they bought his propaganda.. just like I do NOT forgive the freeptards for buying the propaganda spewed by AWOL Bush's admin. regarding Saddam Hussein being responsible for 9/11, and how the iraqi people had to die in shock and awe so we could avoid a mushroom cloud and we could have cheaper gas prices, etc.

stoooopid people who condone evil acts ARE NOT EXCUSED! They are as bad as those who committed the evil acts. Their judgement day will come.

[GumboYaYa]

26. Why is Kerry noble for buying the propaganda, but people in

Germany during the 30's are stoopid? Is the fact tha Kerry thought "america is always right" evidencetha he is stoopid too, and hence not deserving of forgiveness in your book?

[bushisanidiot]

30. Kerry wasn't inspired by the whole "lets kill them before they kill us"

freeptard mentality that hitlers brain dead minions and AWOL Bush's brain dead followers participate in today.

i honestly thought the military was being used in the way it was intended to be used. there weren't any "kill the rag-heads!" type Toby Keith propaganda back then that he would have been influenced by. that kind of crap was coming out of the repuke side when dirty dick slithered into the white house.

[theboss]

35. Yet, the ADL seems ok with Ratzinger

Very strange.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. Timeliness matters.

Let me first say that I don't hold Ratzinger's draft at the age of 14 against him BUT

when Kerry vlounteered he did not see the war as unjust or immoral. Once he SAW that he dedicated a great deal of his time and life to ending it.

One fine point on Ratzinger, however, is that while he never fired a shot...he did guard a facility that was used to exterminate Jews, no?

[Zynx]

13. No, he DID NOT guard a concentration camp

He was assigned to guard a BMW facility in Germany that was using slave labor.

You needed to be Waffen SS to guard concentration camps.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. OK my mistake, but is slave labor any better?

[theboss]

24. No...but I doubt he had much of a choice

I don't think 17-year-old privates could really claim conscientious objector status in 1944. Who knows if he even knew what he was guarding at the time?

Most of the important German plants were underground at that point anyway.

[Lone Pawn]

31. Yes, they could claim CO.

They were sent to work camps.
They then did slave labor.

Just like John Paul II did.

[theboss]

16. I think we was assigned to a BMW plant

And the plant used slave labor.

I'm not sure that's akin to being a guard at Dachau.

And anyway, he apparently deserted.

[Lone Pawn]

32. The BMW plant used Dachau slave labor.

Ironic you pick that camp.

Anyway, he deserted in May of 1945--AFTER HITLER HAD SHOT HIMSELF AND THE RUSSIANS TOOK BERLIN.

[theboss]

40. He desserted in '44

I don't know why '45 keeps getting thrown around.

[Lone Pawn]

43. Because he did desert in '45.

http://www.nysun.com/article/12501
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15421103&metho...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/19/world/main689...
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_16...
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/3143561

[Cuban_Liberal]

14. Have your Kevlar and Nomex handy.

You've dared to bring logic into the forefront, an act which will get you flamed...

[vpigrad]

18. Both are horrible, but...

Kerry was running against Bush so we had no choice but to support and vote for him.

[theboss]

21. Well, that's one viewpoint

I think the better viewpoint is that it is foolish to take a snapshot from one period of a person's life and extrapolate that into the person's character.

[blm]

25. It matters that Ratzinger supports authoritarianism and fascism TODAY.

The Hitler youth aspect of his life is just a footnote.

[theboss]

27. I agree

I have no problem with that argument.

[Cuban_Liberal]

28. He does?

Please cite evidence for that statement.

[blm]

34. Interfering in our election so a fascist could maintain power.

.

[Cuban_Liberal]

38. Show me where he did that, if you will.

I'd like to read the statement where he did so.

[mrfrapp]

42. It's on the front page

It's on the front page of Democratic Underground.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/

[blm]

33. Speak for yourself. Most of us knew Kerry's record of service included

investigating and exposing more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history and are honored that such a statesman and advocate was representing our vote.

[Lone Pawn]

29. The difference is this.

Kerry joined what he thought was a moral war, fought to the best of his ability, and then as soon as he returned, took the unpopular position and fought against it tooth and nail.

Ratzinger joined what he knew was an immoral war, fought neither here nor there, and then hung around with who he knew was the wrong side until they were defeated. And then claimed that all along he would have fought against the Nazis, but the right moment just never came up.

[Hav]

36. That's interesting

You really know the two guys very well. Especially what they thought at any point of time. Not objective but interesting.

[Lone Pawn]

44. Since both of them have written books,

and have had several biographers, it's not too difficult :eyes:

[Hav]

46. .

Does that mean that you have read Ratzingers' books?
If yes, please tell us what he has written about being a Nazi and so on or what he did and thought after being drafted. The time in the army, was it only doing nothing and letting the time pass?
How did he feel later about the war, does he mention that? There are many who would like to know.

[Lone Pawn]

48.

If you'd actually like to know, I would advise doing so much as a google search on the guy. It's not like his stance on the Nazi era is hard to find. If for some reaason you are unable to find Google, I'll help you out.

[Hav]

51. enlighten us

So you didn't read his books? Disappointing. I was so hoping that you actually knew what were talking about :(.
There are many who were searching but couldn't find the specific information. For example, what were his thougts about his time in the army and whether he regretted it, you know, like renouncing the "Nazi past". Not the already often pasted little pieces about never having shot etc.

And to be clear about it, I am not at all happy with a Pope like Ratzinger. His actual positions worry my more than his youth though.

[Lone Pawn]

52.

I've read his autobiography, but idiotic book-report tests at the behest of some stranger on the Interweb isn't my idea of a fun time. The information is freely available. I find it hard to believe you *actually* cannot find a single scrap of information relating to his repudition of the Nazi regime.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. Ratzinger and Kerry - birds of a feather. Politicians.

Kerry volunteered for combat in Vietnam and later denounced his deeds when the war became unpopular. Ratzinger, with more justification, was a Hitler Youth, and later denounced Naziism.

Kerry became a hawk when going to war with Iraq was popular and has tried to justify his vote ever since. Ratzinger was supposedly "liberal" early on, and turned conservative when JPII became honcho. Now he's blathering about "unity".

[democracyindanger]

41. It's not an interesting point. It's a dumb one.

Kerry returned and protested the war. As a Senator, he played a key role in the BCCI and Iran-Contra investigations.

Ratzinger grew up, and as a cardinal has suppressed free thought in the Catholic Church, attacked other religions, pooh-poohed the child molestations by priests as overblown and media-fed, and encouraged hatred of homosexuals.

And you say you're not comparing the President to the Pope, but that's the basis of your entire dumb point.

[theboss]

49. And Ratzinger played a huge role in building fences with Jews

I just posted a boatload of links with Jewish leaders saying that they trust him.

[democracyindanger]

53. "Building" fences. Yeah, I bet he has. Big, tall ones.

Bet he'll be building all kinds of barriers during his reign.

[DURHAM D]

45. I don't think anyone who was not at least 16 years old in 1966

should response to this flame. You don't know what you don't know.

If your thoughts about the Vietnam era are based on what you have read or what you were taught and not on personal experience I repeat, you don't know what you don't know.

[theboss]

47. My dad was drafted in '65

I know what I know.

[0rganism]

54. So when will we be hearing from the Panzer Tank Veterans For Truth?

;)