It is amazing to me that DUers can flame away at Christians in the

[hector459]

so-called "religious wars" here but any mention of Jews or Judaism is met harsly with either a banning or charges of anti-semitism. I think the comments about Catholics and other Christians are more inflamatory.
It would be much better to stick to "right wing" vs "liberal" vs "conservative" etc.

[sonicx]

1. How many Americans are non-Christian?

How many non-Christians are there in Congress?

[Lefty_the_Right]

2. I guess I don't see

a push by jewish people to shove their religion down my throat?

I've never heard of Jewish people pipe bombing a pig farm of a non-kosher deli.

[asthmaticeog]

5. Give us time.

Our elders are working on new protocols. :evilgrin:

[Roland99]

19. And those darn Wiccans...always pushing their agenda in my face

I mean...come on!

[neuvocat]

I just hide the threads.

It isn't worth it to get into any of the discussions.

[Taxloss]

3. Oh, those persecuted Christians.

Yes, we people who folloe a doctrine of pure evil - apparently - have been hearing a lot about them lately.

I daresay the Jews are feeling fairly disquieted by this week's events as well.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FlemingsGhost]

24. Guess I should have said "Fuck Christians," instead.

Keep up the good work, mods.

[Tux]

6. The real reason is

That Christianity has been highjacked by extremists who use terrorist actions to make their political point. From abortion clinic bombings to killing of blacks/gays to protesting funerals, the hate created by the extremists is rubbing off onto others who are victims of their actions or witness to their theocracy.

[smirkymonkey]

7. Well, Jews aren't trying to take over the government and

force us all to live under a fascist theocracy.

[sandnsea]

8. exactly n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

26. Do you think that the Christians of DU are trying

to take over the government and force you into a theocracy? Or do you think, just maybe, since they are liberal Democrats they just might be on YOUR side?

[Zenlitened]

27. Some of them, frankly, I don't think are liberal Democrats at all.

I think a partion of the tension has been created by people vigorously defending positions and practices that run counter to any definition of progressivism I've ever known.

[readmoreoften]

29. Yes, I'm all for progressive christians.

But so-called moderate christians are really conservative christians these days, because what used to be called conservative is outright extremism.

[smirkymonkey]

33. No, but I think there is a lot of confusion on this board when some

of us speak about the fundie Christians who ARE trying to take over the government that we are speaking of all Christians, which is not true.

There is Christian and CHRISTIAN, and I think most people should know by now that what most of us are criticizing is the rabid, right-wing Christian lunatic fringe.

I am one who things that faith should be personal and quiet. If you practice the Christian faith and walk your talk and don't try to push your religion on others, then I have the utmost respect for you as a human being. It's Christianity as an institution that I have a problem with, because that's when it becomes political. And I am not just singling out Christianity, I feel the same way about all religions.

[H2O Man]

9. As a religious person

I think that it is important to remember that many people have been oppressed by Christians, including many in the United States. as a former Catholic, who has many Catholic relatives and friends, it is unacceptable to me to have the church leaders take official positions against gay and lesbian couples, and take no position on the priests who have raped youth for so many years. It is morally offensive to me that people are opposed to adults in love, and okay with child abuse.

I also have friends and relatives, who were forced (or their parents were) to attend "boarding schools," to deny their religion, have their hair cut, suffer sexual abuse, because "to save the man" the church had to "kill the Indian."

We have morally-impaired right-wing "leaders" denying and attempting to deny further, the medical advances that result from science. They wish to keep science out of the school rooms in America. They want to force their prayers on everyone.

It is an unfortunate truth that the good of Christianity (most importantly, the gentle, loving, and forgiving message of the prophet Jesus) remains overshadowed by the extreme church-sanctioned wrongs; these include slavery, the genocidal policies towards Native Americans, and the Nazi experience in Europe.

Thus I think that Christians must understand there will at times be backlash. Often it may be ugly, and though it may seem misdirected, it is what it is. Maybe DU gives people a safe place to express themselves. Keep in mind that even within the democratic party, non-religious people are a tiny minority. Also keep in mind that even those who are the most outspoken tend to admire and respect Rev. King. If we can find agreement on King's work, I think we'll be okay.

[TreasonousBastard]

18. Good points...

and of the billions of Christians around the world, the gasbags of the right are only a small, but vocal, minority.

There will be horrible things done in the name of Christ, and Christ himself warns us of this, as he warns us of the false prophets. Even in the earliest days of the church, Paul spent much of his time stamping out corruption.

Since the US is probably the most Christian nation on earth, it must at times suck to be something else. And there are a lot of something else's. Christian references automatically pop up everywhere, usually without intention to proseletize or offend, but thay are still there, and sometimes it's just too much to take.

The rightwing gasbags have not hijacked Christianity, but they have hijacked the discussion. There are thousands of parish priests and ministers who spend their time ministering to their flock, feeding the poor, and doing what most of us consider the work of Christ. They have no time, interest, or organization to take over the political life of the country.

To many, even peripherally within the faith, these gasbags represent the religion, and the Beatitudes are ignored and forgotten. Christianity has as its core the concept of personal salvation, and that can never be in the public debate. It is purely between the individual and God, with perhaps a church showing the way.

What they have made public are the sound bites and quasi-religious claptrap of being "born again" and a creepy morality that Christ, or even Paul, would never recognize

It gives the rest of us a bad name, and puts us in the uncomfortable position of again defining the faith that has been redefined and fought over for 2,000 years.

[H2O Man]

21. Likewise

it appears to me that the vast majority of non-religious folks are not "anti-religous folk." They are simply stating that they will settle for nothing less than their constitutional rights, and everyone who believes in the costitution must actively support this.

None of us benefit from religious fanatics abusing their unwarrented influence to ban scientific advancements in health. We will not become more competitive in the world if we revert to teaching children from an anti-scientific stance ..... would teaching the creation myth include the theory that the earth is the exact center of our solar system? Or that the world is flat? As silly as my examples may seem, they are as scientifically valid as the creation myth that some Christians subscribe to.

Yet, as you remind us, we need to keep in mind that "the US is probably the most Christian nation on earth." Even within the democratic party, the non-religious folks are a tiny button on a large shirt. The religious majority in the party will be the deciding factor in what direction the party takes on virtually every issue.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

11. When Jews try to impose their religion on me they'll get the same

and so will anyone else.

[rockymountaindem]

30. Put down that ham sandwitch, sinner!!!

n/t

[JDPriestly]

12. Catholics and fundamentalist Evangelicals

relatively speaking are in the majority in this country, wield a lot of power (loudly) and have shown themselves to be intolerant -- to think they know better than those of us who do not believe as they do and to want to punish others for not agreeing with them. That is why they get loudly criticized on this website.

Personally, I am a Unitarian who believes in tolerance and in the values of the Christian and Jewish religions, but not in what I define as the peripheral stuff -- which, in my view is incredible, irrational and sometimes downright fictional. For example, I do not know whether Jesus was God, and I do not expect to find out in this life, and I am not about to say that I believe that he is if I really don't know whether he is or not. If other people want to believe or profess to believe that stuff, I do not object.

What I do object to is religions whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever, trying to prevent me from thinking for myself and using my own God-given reason and rational thought to decide for myself what I think and believe. I reject any person, religion or political movement to the extent that it does not respect individual freedom of thought and action with regard to religion and conscience. I am tolerant, but I do not acquiesce to the intolerance of others. I object to being constantly proselytized at. I object to the majority trying to impose its beliefs on me and trying to deprive me of my religious freedom. If you are Christian, and you don't do any of those things, I support you in pursuing your way to the extent that you support me in pursuing mine.

[smirkymonkey]

34. Here, Here!

Great post! :bounce:

[Bluebear]

13. No Jew ever told me "This is a Jewish country! Move to France!"

[walldude]

14. Bingo!

Until recently I thought one of the great things about America was the fact that people were free to worship who, where and when they want. According to the "Christians" America was founded as a Christian nation and we should all be beholden to the laws of the Christian bible. Which really confuses someone like me with an Irish Catholic/Jewish heratige...

Also you don't see Ann Coulter saying we should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them all to Judasim.

I also don't see any Jews poking their heads into my home to try to decide what I can watch, who I can sleep with and how I should raise my kids...

-edit- oooh only 15 posts to go :D

[Bluebear]

15. You are Irish and Jewish? What's your last name, Oy Reiley?

Hahahahahahaha!

Never mind. :)

[JerseygirlCT]

17. Eh, my kids have

Irish Catholic and Jewish heritage, too. AND they're being raised as Episcopalians. Talk about our own little melting pot!

[walldude]

22. LMAO..

The biggest problem I have is wanting to get drunk all the time but not wanting to spend the money on booze :toast:

[Bluebear]

23. LMAO!!!!

Oh it's good to laugh.

[blogbear]

16. Nobody is a goody-two-shoes because they wear a label or tag

one on someone else. I don't care or even could care what anyone believes about anything and wish people could just keep all that 'stuff' in their own unasked heads.

[pinkpops]

20. They may call themselves Christians but they don't follow Christ

They are usurping Christianity as a brand name. If they would pick another brand name for their hatred, people who do follow Christ would be spared inadvertent identification with them. This is not persecution of People of Faith. It is standing up to People of Hate.

[blogbear]

25. amen!

[kineneb]

28. hear, hear!

I am not a Christian, but I think the ideals that are attributed to Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels are good.

Greed exludes you from ultimate happiness (heaven).

People who pray on the street corners (or in large crystal cathedrals) are show-offs and are not sincere.

The money changers and salesmen do not belong in houses of worship.

Blessed are the poor and the peacemakers.

[Az]

32. Better do something about them

Those who do not share your beliefs in Jesus would normally live and let live. But these so called false Christians are outvocalizing the true Christians and they represent a threat to our life. We will not stand by and allow this. We will counter and unfortunately we are not privy to insider knowledge as to who the good Christians are and who the bad ones are.

Speak out against those who make false claims in the name of your beliefs.

[Az]

31. There used to be a social contract

The social contract basically said that everyone had an equal say in our society. We tolerate others and their beliefs. We allow them an equal say in the process. It wasn't always perfectly implemented but there wasn't open warfare waged upon it.

But things have changed. There are factions that have torn up the social contract and have declared their moral right to set the rules of this society. The individuals that have done this are Christians of the Religious Right. They have done this in the very specific goal of placing their Christian beliefs at the seat of power and removing any other voice that may wish to speak.

This does not mean all Christians. There are multitudes for whom the Religious Right does not speak. But it is still being done in the name of a Christian belief set. And when those that cherish this country and wish to speak against their actions choose words to describe these groups they will find the word Christian cropping up into their lexicon.

Its not just a left vs right thing. It is a clearly religious motivated issue. It is not all Christianity. It is a very vocal minority. It is their vocalness that gives them strength. If the other Christians wish to see an end to the tarnishing of the name of Christ to end then they will have to speak up against these destroyers of society and drown them out. If you leave it to us nonbelievers we may paint our statements with a wider brush than you would like. We cannot know the mind of every believer. Only the ones who's voices reach our ears.