So the tapes were ready to roll when the 5-year old was arrested?

[hector459]

Say what you will but this Asst. Principal had an agenda. Here are a few question I would like answered. And yes, there was a video but like they say about the Rodney King case, we didn't see the beginning of the incident and the tape does not explain everything.

Why was the camera already set?

Why was this little girl the only one in the office or classroom?

How many of the viewers whould approve of having their LITTLE GIRL handcuffed by police?

If this child had been white, would this have been done? Would the child even be in the office?

What is wrong with FL?

This child was obviously having a fit, but why? She was afraid of something and looked to be fighting to protect herself from somethin...what was it?

I've seen children in the malls this size kicking and screaming at parents and running through the aisles tearing down items, but I have never seen one handcuffed.

[all.of.me]

1. the class was being video taped for a reason

(that i can't remember off-hand). and they took all the other children out of the classroom when this girl was acting out. the article said it was for their safety and to remove an 'audience' for the girl.

i didn't watch the movie. i'm on dialup and movies take forever.

the girl is angry. that needs to be addressed.

and the police should NOT have been called. teacher should be trained to deal with this! i see that in the schools here. teachers are only trained to teach, not to deal with unusual situations.

i think it's horrible. is there anyone who doesn't think so?

[H2O Man]

2. One can not

curb anger with anger; one can not dilute frustration by becoming frustrated; and one can not disolve impatience with more impatience.

The edited film showed clearly that when the police entered the room, the girl was sitting quietly.

The idea that racism played a role seems worthy of consideration.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[H2O Man]

8. There are some

teachers who should not be in contact with children and/or teens.

[MADem]

3. OH, bullshit!

Read the mile long thread on the subject, please, before starting another one rehashing the same crap. The AP had NOTHING TO DO with the taping. The teacher was trying to improve her delivery, that is why the tape was running. Once the situation escalated, they used the camera to cover their asses, and who could blame them?

The whole scoop, with assorted viewpoints from members of this community, can be found here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1413513

[Carni]

4. After watching that fat lard following her around (taunting her IMO)

I can't blame the kid!

What kind of a lame deal was that anyway?

Take the kid by the arm and escort her to the office--what was with the following her and doing weird hand gestures around the girl?

Obviously if these nit wits act like they don't have control of a situation a five year old will sense it and run with it.

My kid attended a national chain type pre-school at one point in time that was filled with incompetent young child care workers and they conducted themselves in a similar manner to what I witnessed on that tape.

I got a phone call one day about how I had to pick her up immediately because she *attacked* one of the administrators--when I got there the *attack* turned into "she spit at one of them"

In fact what had transpired is that she had done the old rasberry stick out your tongue and make a noise thing at the so called "vice principal" -- another teacher confirmed that is what had transpired (frankly I think my daughter was a good judge of character)

When I questioned the *Vice Principal* about why she had lied and claimed she had been attacked she started yelling at ME.

I pulled my daughter from the place that day.

[teach1st]

5. Your agenda is showing...

Perhaps your experiences are coloring how you view this situation. Would it have been better had the educator in question not been, as you say, "a fat lard."

Take the kid by the arm and escort her to the office--what was with the following her and doing weird hand gestures around the girl?

Taking a child by the arm leaves school personnel and the school open to a lawsuit. We're trained (and ordered) not to touch except to provide specific protection to the child or ourselves.

The hand signals are also part of CPI (Crisis Prevention Intervention) training.

The educators went by the book. We can argue that the book needs rewritten, as I think it does, but these specific educators aren't at fault here - they didn't write the book. Perhaps the police are, but I don't have enough info.

(On Edit - Corrected "CPI"

[Carni]

13. "My agenda" Give me a break--

A five year old throwing a temper tantrum is a crisis?

Crisis intervention training?

Yes, I would say the book should be rewritten and perhaps it should be done with some common sense this time.

As to my "agenda" -- now I am freeper or a right winger just because I disagree with stupidity like "crisis intervention training" in the case of a five year old child throwing a temper tantrum?

Stop throwing accusations around to deflect from criticism of teachers--people on the right and the left are fed up with some of the abject stupidity taking place in both public and private schools.

[teach1st]

14. That's not a temper tantrum

And what would you have done as the teacher?

Your agenda was made clear to me by the fat comment. You are comparing under-trained preschool workers (I have worked at private preschools) with trained educators.

I never make excuses for stupidity in schools. I'm talking about this specific incident. Nor did I imply that you are a freeper.

[notadmblnd]

16. Carni...

please look at your inbox.

[undergroundpanther]

12. Fat hate

does not solve the issue of child abuse.

I am really tired of the fat bigotry people have here.

Why call the teacher who was an asshole lard ass? What does the size of her ass have to do with her bad job taking care of kids? keep the size bigotry out of it!!!
Discuss the real issue which is child abuse
not other peoples BODIES for chissakes!
Skinny people,muscular fit people can and do abuse kids too.

[Carni]

26. Point being the teacher dwarfed the kid

Bullying a young kid like she did (and spare me this *the school's hands were tied because of lawsuits* crap-that's always a fave excuse of the right wing)

IMO she used taunting body language towards that TODDLER and irked her on and there is no way a woman that size was phsically threatened by that small girl--why did the teacher escalate the situation?

[okieinpain]

24. so you would grab somebody's kid by the arm and forcibly

take them somewhere against there will. I would pay good money to see that.

[Carni]

30. Oh gee look... Hannity agrees with you all

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3531588

So much for *my* RW agenda

[teach1st]

35. Oh, I see the problem...

..for me this has nothing to do with right or left-wing. I meant what appears to me to be an anti-teacher agenda.

I remember Pat Buchanan speaking out against the Iraq War. I try to look at facts more than which political side an opinion falls.

[Carni]

42. No, I think it has everything to do with Florida

I am sorry but the teacher is white with a very Southern RW looking hairdo (feathered, probably hasn't been updated since 1982)

The kid is black.

Forgive me... but given Florida's history in these matters/gut reaction, I sense a whiff of some kind of racism at a surface glance.

If the kid is truly out of control and the mother herself has called the cops on a number of occasions about her (I still haven't seen the link to that) then perhaps I am dead wrong and shouldn't have impugned this teacher's credibilty and called her a fat lard.

There are excellent teachers, there are teachers who mean well (even though they may be somewhat misguided) and then there are the ones who should be drawn and quartered because they are pushing their OWN agenda for whatever reasons and they are in a position of power over vulnerable children.

The filming by and the gyrations of this particular teacher made me wonder what exactly her motivation was in regards to this incident.

I have every right to ponder these finer points on a message board without getting accused of having an agenda.

[teach1st]

44. As a Florida teacher I see...

...this behavior from children of all races, sexes, and whatever. And usually the teacher response is consistent. Are you suspecting racism because this is in Florida or because of the teacher's hairstyle? The school in question has an African American principal, by the way.

I've met all kinds of teachers here - lousy, drunk, mediocre, excellent, clueless. By far the majority are good teachers. I see racism for sure, but not nearly as much as people think. Still, I don't think it's a bad idea for people to examine this issue to see if racism plays a part.

You have every right to discuss this. I think I have a right to question your broad statements about teachers prescribing medicine, fat teachers, and teachers with hairstyles with which you find fault. Your statements lead me to believe you aren't being fair with teachers.

[Carni]

46. I would like to know more about THAT teacher

and this particular kid--that's all I am saying.

The fact that Fox news and Hannity and whoever have come forth to laud this as a "kid out of control" makes me suspicious.

[teach1st]

45. Here's a link

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/23/Southpinellas/Textbook_case_of_disc.shtml

Among the dynamics at work that day: two school staffers were forced to focus exclusively on the girl during dismissal, one of the busiest and most stressful times of the day; the girl's behavior had prompted the school to call city police a few days earlier, and the mother had complained.

And here's what teachers are upset about (same link):

Pinellas elementary schools reported 406 disciplinary referrals for batteries on adults last school year, up from 272 the year before. Many are repeat offenses from a smaller group of children who chronically misbehave.

That small group of children are being returned to their classrooms even after they assault teachers. If somebody is at fault here, it's the administrators who return them to us despite our protests. This isn't a matter of ineffective teachers who can't control kids (although there are some). It's largely a matter of students who are unable to function in a regular classroom setting being kept in a regular classroom setting to the detriment of the students who do want to learn.

[Carni]

47. These are complaints by school officials not the mother

Or anyone else who knows the child--another poster said the mother had called the cops. All this shows me is that the teachers at that school all think this particular child is a bad seed.

[QC]

48. Oh well, if she's a fat Floridian with a hairdo you don't approve,

then she's obviously guilty as sin! :eyes:

[okieinpain]

60. what are you trying to say.

[peacetalksforall]

7. The school officials appeared to be untrained and using poor

psychology and body positioning in relation to a little girl. But, we only saw a few seconds.

[teach1st]

9. I might have handled some of the situations differently, but...

..this is the training we are given. The staff at Fairmont Park Elementary did what they are supposed to do.

St. Petersburg Times, 4/22

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/22/Southpinellas/Video_shows_police_ha.shtml

The Times interviewed several top educators, including two district officials who had seen the video and two professors at the University of South Florida's College of Education.

All praised Dibenedetto for using patience and good training in a tough situation. They said she gave the girl wide latitude to opt for better behavior, used clear commands, called for help from another educator, removed the other students from the room for their safety and to eliminate an audience for the girl, reinforced commands with hand motions and successfully avoided physical confrontation.

Touching the girl, they said, would have escalated the situation.

The two educators "can't control what the children do, but they can control how they respond to it and, to me, they responded admirably," said Robert Egley, an assistant education professor at USF in St. Petersburg. "I give them an A-plus."

[peacetalksforall]

38. Teach 1st.........Removing the children and some of the other

things were very good ideas, but what I saw in those few seconds of tape were two people 'looming' over her. If we feel trapped as adults with people angrily looming, wouldn't we feel trapped as children? Wouldn't it be better to talk to her at eye level?

Obviously, it doesn't seem as though she thought things were fair - however justified or unjustified the situation. If one of them didn't want to get down on the floor or on their knees to be n eye level, could they not tell her that they wanted her to stand on a chair so they could talk a little bit. She might have complied because of the non-typical request.

The big question is whether calling the police is written in the guidelines and exactly what police are expected or allowed to do. If the guidelines include handcuffs...then some people should really examine their hearts and then think of other arrangements. Perhaps a cooling down room with non breakable distractions in toy, book, or music forms - definitely something novel and not typical of the play and classroom area, then leaving her alone for two or three minutes after being told that the person who brought her to the room would be back with a drink.

Additionally, their drinks and food should be checked for artifical flavors and colors and substitute sweetener content. They are all legal kids drugs, imo.

The big question is why the police...the second question is why the police after she calmed down.

That was a hurtful scene for me.

[teach1st]

40. Good questions

I teach in the district and have a web site and discussion board for teachers here.

From what I understand, the child calmed down only when she saw the police. She was given plenty of time to calm down before police were called. I haven't verified this, but the video reportedly doesn't show the entire police encounter.

Should the police have been called? I think in context, yes. The child had a history and was reportedly a risk to run. This very same school had a child run last week and he was very seriously injured as he tried to cross the street. The child was not calming down. You saw adults looming. I saw adults worried about the child running or hurting herself. When they did back off, the child destroyed stuff. Had they given too much leeway to the child and had she run and become injured, they would be responsible.

Our Superintendent is now making sure that when police have to be called, that schools call our own Campus Police. They have more experience dealing with kids.

[peacetalksforall]

49. Sorry teach1st....I am totally opposed to the police being involved in

affairs of this child. That child's psyche is more fragile and important than broken 'things'. I believe calling the police is unimaginative, a cop-out, and a horrible experiment. How is her mind supposed to wrap itself around this kind of an 'adult lesson'?

This is the perfect child experiment that could call for future psychological counseling. Is she to go through the rest of her childhood comparing handcuffs used for criminals on tv programs and the news or kinky sex to her day in handcuffs? Who was her friend and defender there? Surely NOT the police. Was the purpose to scare her into good behavior? Breaking things? Being handcuffed at five years of age is not a human defense gift.

What is needed, it seems, is help from state or community sociology and psychological experts or private experts to determine if she is capable of attending school.

She is a five year old who was treated like an adult criminal. It is very scary.

Sorry, this is my opinion until I hear something that changes things.

[teach1st]

51. I have misgivings about the police behavior

But understand the pressure that school is under because of the boy who got hit by the car. I don't know if the police were thinking about the child's safety or about scaring her.

I have seen educators whom I trust have to call the police - absolutely have to. I've also seen police called when they shouldn't have been. It looks to me like the handcuffing was unncessary, and, yes, it might well have been very traumatic for the child. However, injury is also traumatic and that was what the school may have had to weigh. In this case, what should the assistant principal have done instead of calling the police? We see that the appearance of the police did indeed cause the child to calm down, at least for a while. That to me could be an argument in favor of calling the police. On the other hand, it may be that the school had not set up its behavior consequences and adult authority sufficiently, and that this situation wouldn't involve the police at another school. I couldn't tell that from the video.

The disservice to the child may have been done well before the situation which promted the handcuffing. Could and should she have been placed in a better setting? It takes almost an entire school year in our district to get placement changed, even sometimes for students who have an acute need for a change in placement. IF we let this child stay in a placement for which she didn't have the necessary skills, then we have indeed set her up for this.

We also have to worry about the other children in a class. We are getting reports that in some schools having to move entire classes of kids out of their classrooms because of the (repeated) violent behavior of one student is an almost daily occurance. What effect is that having on the majority of students who want to learn?

Sometimes the police do have to be called. Sometimes restraint by the police is necessary in my experience.


(On Edit: Filled in the missing words. My mind goes faster than my fingers!)

[peacetalksforall]

52. Actually, I see moving kids out of the classroom because of one as

not too big of a deal for the other students if really warranted and fair and executed in an adult, compassionately responsible way. The kids get to have one of their first life experiences in viewing consequences. It could even be a catalyst for a future career choice if handled right.

This is in answer to your paragraph -
"We also have to worry about the other children in a class. We are getting reports that in some schools having to move entire classes of kids out of their classrooms because of the (repeated) violent behavior of one student. What effect is that having on the majority of students?"

[teach1st]

53. Perhaps, but it disrupts learning...

Our main concern is that one child is allowed to disrupt the learning of many children.

In schools with challenging students, it takes some time to get everybody focused after a chair-throwing incident.

Let me ask you a question. Your child is a good student. His or her classroom has been disrupted twice this week by the same chair-throwing, teacher-hitting student. What do you want the school to do?

(On edit: Teachers shouldn't misspell, shud thay?)

[peacetalksforall]

61. I think you must be referring to high school kids? My mind has been

geared to young children. Which grade do you teach?

[teach1st]

62. I teach elementary...

I majored in early childhood and elementary. Currently in fifth, but I've taught them all.

I am talking elementary. Let me rephrase the question. Failure to pass certain tests in this state means you're held back. Your son or daugher is struggling and needs extra help. Sometimes he or she doesn't get the needed instruction, because the teacher is too busy with one or two extreme behavior problems. What do you want the school to do?

[Carni]

43. I agree with you completely

The methods used IMO just pumped up the volume.

I found that video painful to watch and if I were treated in such a manner as an adult I think I would have also thrown things.

There was no direction -- just weirdness IMO.

[GoldenOldie]

10. There is something that bothers me about this scenario?

The teacher was videotaping this little girls class for what purpose??? How many parents, grandparents when taking pics or videotaping their little ones, find that some of them have to be told to move around but there are those that truly become little hams and do the very same things that you see depicted in this video. Was this little girl having a tantrum or was she performing for her teacher, fellow-classmates and the camera.

Why did they not show the entire tape from beginning until the little girl was cuffed? The police enter the room while the little girl is sitting quietly at the table, fully composed and the police are telling her to settle down????

Something about this doesn't smell right.

[teach1st]

11. Purpose of taping

The teacher was videotaping this little girls class for what purpose???

The teacher was videotaping herself to improve her teaching, much like atheletes use videotape.

The behavior you saw is all-too common, whether or not a video tape is being made. And one of the reasons it is all too common is parents and teachers keep making excuses for out-of-control children.

[GoldenOldie]

15. To improve her teaching???

Why was the teacher mobile with camera in hand instead of having the camera set-up to reflect teacher and student interaction. Kindergarten, 5-year olds will play to the cameras especially to get attention. The teacher/cameraperson, continues to follow this 5-year old child around.....making her the star of the video...giving her an awful lot of attention from adults.

I have family who are teachers and the last thing the school districts want are having local media attention. Although they have resource officers located on campus, they do no want squads of police called to their school for problems such as this as it reflects the inability of administration to handle basic problems.

How did the media get this video-tape? Who gave the media this tape and was this approved by the parent? Why is it ok for the media to exploit this 5-yr old before learning all the facts?

[MADem]

18. Obviously, you have not seen the tapes

...or read the original thread on this subject. The tape was handed to the media by the lawyer hired by the MOTHER. Someone is looking for MONEY.

The camera was on a tripod, aimed at the teacher. Only after things got out of hand and the AP showed up to help did the teacher track the kid with the camera, which was later taken and pointed through the window (standard office setup, half windows with opened blinds) to document the child's rampage.

This kid has interacted with the cops on at least THREE OCCASIONS, and one of them included her MOTHER calling the cops to the HOUSE because the (at the time) THREE year old kid was UNCONTROLLABLE.

[Carni]

28. Do you have a link to this?

I have not heard this info previously.

What I saw shown on TV was a five year old yelling and screaming and playing to a camera.

If what you are saying is factual then perhaps the kid does have a problem that exceeds what was shown on this tape

[teach1st]

19. I think the camera was on a tripod...

...in the classroom. When the situation escalated, the decision was made to continue taping to cover their asses.

The police released the tape. I don't know if the parent approved. It seeems a violation of privacy. It is not OK for the media to exploit this story.

Every effort was made to avoid giving the child attention for her behavior. I don't know how intrusive the camera was when the decision was made to continue taping, but I don't blame the school at all for doing so.

[tblue37]

20. The family's lawyer

acquired the tape and provided it to the media.

There is already a long thread on this topic, and you all really should read it before commenting, because a lot of the things you question or complain about are clearly dealt with on the other thread.

[Carni]

27. They probably need to be medicated right?

I'll bet you have *counseled* a few parents into slapping their kids on assorted psychotropic meds in your day, huh?

[teach1st]

31. I just spike their coffee with LSD...

...and you say you don't have an agenda?

I am not allowed to diagnose. I can describe behavior, but I go out of my way not to suggest any medical cause. I can think of several students, though, who were able to get off meds for ADDH and the like because of teaching techniques I used.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Good points teach 1st

Don't you just love these non-teachers telling the rest of us how to handle this situation? IMO, until they are in a classroom with an out of control child like this one, they shouldn't pass judgment. Also, IMO, from watching the tape and reading the article, it is pretty obvious this little girl is disturbed. Well-adjusted 5 year olds do NOT throw temper tantrums at school, they do NOT throw things when they are mad and they most likely don't already have a 'record' of the police being called by both their parent AND the school to calm them down.

Several question come to my mind:

1. Why was the mother unwilling to come to school immediately when she was called? Yes, she can walk off any job when there is an emergency involving her child and not get fired. The family and medical leave act guarantees that.

2. What do the parents of the other kids in the class think? This child put their kids at risk by throwing things in the classroom while those children were there. She also deprived her classmates of an education by causing their lesson to be interrupted. They were forced out of their classroom by an unruly child. If my child had been her classmate, I would be livid. These kinds of children are the cause of many families removing their kids from public schools. Not bad teachers, not poor curriculum, but disruptive classmates cause more kids to leave our public schools than any other reason. Every teacher knows that.

3. How many times had the school called her mother and tried to work with her to get help for her child? This was not the first 'incident' with this kid. What had the school done and did the mother do anything (like find counseling) to help her daughter?

4. What realistic suggestion do the critics here have? We are not allowed to touch kids when they throw tantrums, so picking her up and carrying her out of the room is NOT an option. I would love for each one of these critics to spend one day in a classroom with a child like this and try to persuade her to stay calm and follow directions. It is not as easy as it seems.

[Carni]

34. Kids don't drink coffee and BTW Hannity is right on board with you

So is faux news...the child was "out of control and a danger to herself and others" (ie that fat lard of a teacher)

[teach1st]

36. I wasn't clear...

...I put the LSD in the parents' coffee. Kids get valium.

Pat Buchanan agrees with me - at least in part - on the Iraq War.

[Carni]

39. You should put the LSD in your own coffee

Maybe it will open up your mind a little and get you past the preconceived notion that every kid who acts out is being raised in a "bad home" or is mentally ill.

Parents send their children off to school hoping that their child's teacher will be fair and just and will treat their child with respect.

Sadly that is not always the case.

[teach1st]

41. I like my coffee black...

...and you are putting words in my mouth. I have no such preconceived notion. Some teachers do, of course.

I think the video showed the teachers giving that child as much respect as possible. I'm not sure about the police, though.

[GreenArrow]

17. Florida is the moral sewer of America,

according to Aleister Crowley. You know, if Aleister Crowley says something is a moral sewer, it really is bad.

[pacalo]

22. Some of the most outstanding people I know come from Florida.

Blanket statements like that are unwise.

[GreenArrow]

23. there are outstanding people from everwhere

Speaking personally, there a few places in this country I would rather less live than the Sunshine State. To each his or her own; it's one of the fastest growing states, I believe. Just not for me.

[pacalo]

21. Once the little girl made it clear that she couldn't be controlled

the TA's should have taken her to the office, pronto. Continuously following the child as she destroyed the classroom saying, "You may not do that...You may not touch me" doesn't cut it; it's permission in the child's eyes to continue the bad behavior. However, as evidenced in the video, the child's behavior only worsened in the principal's office.

I sympathize with the school officials in this case. What more could they have done, short of allowing this child to destroy the office? Does anyone expect school officials to dedicate the rest of the day to attend to this child's tirade?

It really looked bad that the mother told school officials on the phone that she couldn't come to pick up her child until after 3 p.m. No doubt she was given a full report on the phone about her child's behavior; to criticize the school's remedy after the fact is unjustified.

[AlCzervik]

25. When they came in to arrest her she was sitting quietly in a chair

so she had calmed down, they should have told her mother to get there pronto or they should have called the superintendent of schools if she was so out of control they couldn't handle her. Whats the point of cuffing her and making her do a perp walk? Florida lets child molesters roam free but that arrest a 5 year old, give me a break.

[Carni]

29. Additionally the cops just let her go (which obviously they had to do)

Now think about the message that just sent the five year old
(as in it was a scare tactic and the cops couldn't and wouldn't actually do anything)

If she was out of control before, she'll be even more out of control NOW.

I think this is a disgraceful situation all the way around (if for no other reason than because FOX News is saying the teacher, the school and the cops were in the right...that is enough for me to conclude that something else is going on here)

[pacalo]

37. I don't condone the handcuffs, either,

but I put the blame on the mother for not going to the school the moment she was called. Shame on that mother for expecting the school officials to do the impossible with that uncontrollable child. The mother admitted the child had acted this way at home; it's not like this bad behavior was a one-time incident. Instead of suing, the mother should be focusing on getting the behavior problems solved so that her child will be able to function in society properly.

[teach1st]

32. The child reportedly was a risk to run...

That very school had student who ran last week and was struck by a car. If the police counseled this child and let her go and then she ran and was hurt, you know that the school and the police would be blamed for her injuries.

The bottom line in this is that districts have to be more proactive in placing students who severely disrupt into classrooms or schools that can better serve those students. I remember once I was punched with a lot of force by a large 12-year-old who was attacking a much smaller student. I had simply stepped in between the attacker and his victim and asked the attacker to stop. The attacker was wearing a "felon bracelet' at the time, having had his share of scrapes with the law. He was suspended for three days and returned to the school. A few years later he was finally put in jail for an attempted poisoning of one of his teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. We had a 4th grader freak out in our district just last week

He went bonkers during testing. (One more reasom to oppose THAT) The school had to call the cops and they had to restrain him - not with handcuffs but with a strait jacket and a mask. The teachers said he looked like Hannibal Lector. The paramedics also had to give him a shot to calm him down before taking him out of the building. And funny thing- the media didn't cover this story.

Kids freak out every day in schools all over the country. A sad but true fact. When their parents hire a lawyer and contact the media, we all get to hear about the 'tragedy'.

[medeak]

56. jesus.. a strait jacket and mask?

that's worse than handcuffs imo

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. The kid went bonkers

threw books, hit and kicked kids, teachers and cops. Tried to jump out a 2nd floor window. I talked to one of the teachers and a cop who were both there. They said there was nothing anyone could do to calm him down. They were afraid he was going to injure himself.

This happened a week ago and the child is still in the psych ward. So it sounds like he has some pretty serious problems.

[medeak]

59. my mom locked herself in a locker

with a student to protect themselves..posted earlier..student went ballistic and knifed the librarian over 20 times in the back.

Librarian has never recovered emotionally...hasn't left her home in years.

It's said that these disturbed kids aren't diagnosed earlier?

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. The earlier the better

is very true. Kids with emotional problems get much worse once puberty hits. Hormones make them a lot crazier.

Horrible story about your mom. And how devastating for the librarian.

I had a kid in 3rd grade about 15 years ago who wasn't violent (yet) but he was scary. He had a criminal mind at the age of 8. Wanted to be a gangster - he even admitted that. One day he got in trouble for something minor and he wrote a 2 page essay defending himself and explaining why he wanted to kill the teacher who had corrected him. Then he handed me the essay. I will never forget the last sentence "When I grow up, I am going to kill all the people who were mean to me when I was little."

He is 23 or 24 now and in prison. He and his brother tried to kill a guy and left him a quadraplegic. I can't say I was surprised when I heard this.

[medeak]

65. you're not going to believe what happened to me today

.. hate telling this..my dog walked in with an enormous bar of dark chocolate in his mouth tonight. He only weighs 9 lbs and would be deadly to him.

Have a very disturbed child living two doors down. He was expelled from school district at age 9 (permanently) for attempting to poison a third grader.

Golfed with school principal and she told me "move the hell off that street" re this child.

We have no facility here for disturbed children and he has been at Head Start with 4 year olds for the last 4 years...he's now 13.

It's the saddest story you can imagine. He was found rummaging through garbage at age 4 to find food for his baby brother in SLC. They were both adopted out however his younger brother is not allowed to see him. He's kept in control with fake promises that he will see his brother some day.

Now he's 13 and I worry about the hormones going on..he's already taken out our outdoor lighting "cameras are watching me" we had rewired so he can't pull the wires.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Tragic

Just tragic. We expel these kids but then what happens to them? When the hell will we wake up in this country and actually do something to help kids like this? I happen to believe they can all be helped if we get to them when they are young enough.

[Djinn]

64. got to agree with you teach1st

teachers and other staff at schools are in an impossible position these days. As well as teaching they're supposed to be social workers, behavioural psychologists and jailers but they can't even TOUCH a kid let alone grab a screaming brat and drag her out of the classroom.

All through my school years there were a few kids that were fucking nightmares, they'd hit other kids, hit the teachers and no-one was able to do anything about it, maybe the cops shouldn't have handcuffed her (but hearing people call it child abuse is over the top) but given the staff could NOT physically restrain her what should they have done.

If staff had grabbed her I wouldn't mind betting her mother would have grabbed THAT video tape and sued as well.

[hector459]

54. But why was the child the only kid in the room? What happened earlier?

What happened BEFORE the tapes started rolling? I have children. I know fear when I see it. That child was behaving in a way that makes me believe she was scared and lashing out because of something that had happened to her before she was taped.

[phylny]

55. I work in special ed, and what I saw was a child

who had a melt-down and was determined to continue her destruction and her physical attacks.

Sorry, I've just seen too much in classrooms to assume someone at school traumatized this child. More likely is that she's reinforced at home in some way for this behavior, and she continues it in school. Since the school personnel are bound by rules on how they can interact with her, she can't be restrained or even touched in certain ways.

[no_to_war_economy]

58. this was all part of that EPA study

you get a free camcorder and record your youngster wig out becuz of all the pesticides in her system