Dean on Iraq

[Kevin Spidel]

(on edit) PDA has been getting a lot of emails/calls and internal discussion based on a statement Dean made this last week. We are tasked on what to do (if anything) about this. These questions are slanted, because many feel this is not a change of stance, but some do. Bear in mind this is not the opinion of PDA, myself, but of various concerns raised to us via www.pdamerica.org. This is an excersize to get a feeling of how DU'ers feel. In all honesty, all feedback helps. This is by no means scientific. It is a straw poll and gut check.

------------------

Do you agree with Primary Candidate Dean or Chairman Dean? Or is there a difference?

In the Primary he stated:

Remarks By Gov. Howard Dean (Democratic National Committee Winter Meeting Washington, DC February 21, 2003 / TRANSCRIPT) "What I want to know is why in the world the Democratic party leadership is supporting the president's unilateral attack on Iraq."

and just two days ago HE, now the "party leadership" stated this:

“Now that we’re there, we’re there and we can’t get out,” he told an audience of nearly 1,000 at the Minneapolis Convention Center. “The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before. But I hope the President is incredibly successful with his policy now that he’s there.”

[patricia92243]

1. Answers 2 and 3 seem to say the same thing??? n/t

[mike_c]

2. I'm tremendously disappointed to see that the democrat...

...spine removal process has apparently been making progress with Dr. Dean.

[madfloridian]

23. Mike, read my posts below. This is so wrong.

.

[mike_c]

36. thanks-- see #32....

eom

[madfloridian]

37. Yeh, I saw it.

I was disappointed that you could not see past what is going on here.

I am sorry you could not see the real issue.

[mike_c]

38. OK

on edit-- yeah, it does seem like I'm missing something here. The poll question seems straightforward to me.

[madfloridian]

The poll says he changed his stance. He never changed it.

He has always said to be cautious about just leaving there without some security. Just because people don't agree, does not make it ok to post it.

[mike_c]

46. that's the part that I was apparently confused about....

All during the primaries I was under the impression that Dean unambiguously opposed the invasion and occupation, and called for ending them without delay. That was in large measure the basis of my support for Dean. If that's not the case, then I stand corrected-- but doubly disappointed.

I do find the two statements in the OP incongruous unless the former is diluted by adding something like "but now that we've started a war, we have to finish it regardless of our opposition." Again, I'm less interested in the apparent infighting that's going on here than in the chair of the Democratic Party's stance on the occupation of Iraq. Does he oppose the occupation, and call for it's cessation, or does he find any reason, e.g. the pottery barn justification, for continuing it?

[madfloridian]

3. Kevin, be ashamed.

You know better. Howard Dean said those words from the time the Democrats gave Bush power to invade Iraq. Is that what your group is going to do? Go after him unfairly?

There are so many interviews, so many speeches, where he said now that we are there we should not leave.

You are telling a lie with your poll.

[WilliamPitt]

6. Is there a way to criticize Dean without being ashamed?

Just curious. I wanted to break something when I heard him say this. Should I be ashamed, too?

[madfloridian]

7. Don't lie, Will. He has always said this. Always.

I just lost respect for you again.

Tell you what, I will do your damn research for you and send it to truthout.

I think this is sickening, that the leader of a new group, and the editor of truthout would rather say ugly things to me than research.

[WilliamPitt]

9. Ugly things?

What ugly things?

I disagree with you. I believe Dean was wrong to say we should stay in Iraq.

Where is the ugliness?

[madfloridian]

15. Don't do this, Will.

You know perfectly well you and Kevin are wrong on this. Kevin Spidel of PDA made it sound like Dean just changed position. You accuse me of not wanting criticism...same song, 2nd verse, and you go along with him.

Read the statements Dean has made for two years. If Kevin made the poll saying agree or not agree that is one thing...he did not do that.

[WilliamPitt]

17. I hear you

OK. Reset and restart.

If I had been constructing Kevin's poll, I'd have made it straightforward: Do agree or disagree with Dean's statement that we need to stay in Iraq? I personally disagree.

That having been said, I can see how the flip-flopper poll question isn't appropriate. Sorry for the confusion and unclear statements.

[Kevin Spidel]

41. Second this..

Ok folks.. understand the framing was bad.. for that I appologize. I am feeling heat from our base here. Understand that Gov Dean and I speak from time to time. He is a close political ally. But our base wants a response to this last weeks comment in which it appears the "pottery barn rule" was a flip-flop. These are folks that are not as close to Dean as many here are, and are getting closer to him as chair. They are gaining an understnaing of issues, and heard Dean was the anti-war in the primary. So they see this as a flip flop. Maybe some educaiton is needed. Maybe that is PDA's job... maybe it is not.

But in the end, we have to do what our grassroots want. We are still tryign to figure out what that is. WRP will start a better crafted and framed poll.

On a side note...

Dean is a friend, and ally, and this all hurts.

[madfloridian]

44. Yes, it does hurt a lot.

I appreciate your response, but you need to clarify to your members that he is at least persistent in his stance. He spoke against the war, but he always qualified it with the fact we should not leave now we are there until it is more stable.

Whether you agree or not, the only two things you can do are to form a 3rd party or work in a manner to let ALL of our Democrats know how you feel.

They ALL voted for it except Kucinich, the candidates that is. They should ALL be held accountable. Right now the most unproductive thing you can do is to try to bring down Howard Dean. You can criticize openly, but if you read DU for the last few days....you will see that has been overdone to the extreme.

Why are you guys so going after him and not the others? You know, the ones who voted for it?

[norml]

45. Well said.

I agree with this statement.

[norml]

42. Dean was right to say we should stay in Iraq. You are right to say...

You are right to say we should leave. Between the two positions we might get mostly out of Iraq, and turn it over to the UN, in about six Months. Dean has not changed his position on opposing the invasion of Iraq. If he now says things supporting the occupation, that is a regrettable, but it is not a changed position. It is a pragmatic position, given that the situation has changed. I too regret any support of continued occupation. There's nothing wrong with pushing for something further than your party leadership is willing to push for. That's the way it should be. But to portray Dean as a traitor to the cause, is most unjust, as is this very slanted poll. Keep up your better work, but try to avoid doing too much damage, while applying your pressure. Dean isn't the enemy, and neither are you.

[Eloriel]

8. Yes, you absolutely should. For being so ill-informed when you're

in the business NOT to be.

I'm frankly surprised at you.

[Eloriel]

11. Man, my thoughts exactly.

Is that what your group is going to do?

I thought to myself, wow -- if that's what I can expect from PDA, count me OUT. How truly, truly ugly.

Kevin, you need to recant your post, and fast. It's one thing to disagree with his position, it's another entirely to mischaracterize it as you have. Dean has ALWAYS had this position, as long as I can remember (while he was still a candidate) -- and I'm not totally sure I always agreed with it -- but HE was always quite open about it.

Your own credibility is severely undermined here. I'm hoping to see you fix that.

Edited to fix "credibily" to what it was supposed to be.

[Kevin Spidel]

14. telling a lie?

I am asking for opinion, we are getting slammed with emails to ask PDA to take a stand on this latest comment, hence why I want to feel out were you are all at. People (hard core dean fans) are coming to me hurt from his last comment. I simply put their emails in a poll, to get the feelings of other DU'ers. I don't see that as a lie and something I should be ashamed of. Have you seen the latest Democracy Now, and the latest Kevin Zeeze Article. They are killing him on this statement. We need to be an asset to him, and find a way to help clarify his stance. This is the process in which we are doing this.

Do you have a better way to frame the question? That would help, versus telling me I am full of lies and should be ashamed. I am spiting out what people are emailing PDA.

[madfloridian]

18. Read what you said. Get back to me.

"It appears he has moved away from his primary stance.

In the Primary he stated:

Remarks By Gov. Howard Dean (Democratic National Committee Winter Meeting Washington, DC February 21, 2003 / TRANSCRIPT) "What I want to know is why in the world the Democratic party leadership is supporting the president's unilateral attack on Iraq."

and just two days ago HE, now the "party leadership" stated this:

“Now that we’re there, we’re there and we can’t get out,” he told an audience of nearly 1,000 at the Minneapolis Convention Center. “The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before. But I hope the President is incredibly successful with his policy now that he’s there.”

No, Kevin, he never moved from his primary stance. See my google search, and I have a whole hell of lot more. I heard you guys might try to do this.

I don't know if I agree with staying or not. I do agree you posted something untrue. That is irresponsible.

[WilliamPitt]

22. Yo Kevin

Perhaps you should edit the poll and put in a statement to the effect that the poll questions are not your creation, but are exactly what PDA has been getting in the mail.

[madfloridian]

24. No, don't edit. Leave it as is. Don't pull the edit stuff.

I took myself off the PDA list not long ago. I have a funny feeling they are not willing to give the new chairman a chance.

[WilliamPitt]

27. Couple of things

Edits are good when the OP isn't clear. Kevin makes an appropriate point when he says those poll questions come from emails PDA has been getting, but should have been crystal clear about that when he posted this. Have you never edited a post?

I know for a stone fact that PDA really likes Dean as chair. Speaking of research, you could go do some to see how hard they worked to help him get the position. I never took myself off their list, so I know they did.

Lastly, have you read post 17 yet?

[Kevin Spidel]

33. jsut saw this after edit.. sorry

remember we were one of the first groups to ask hm to run for DNC chair.

[Kevin Spidel]

26. would love to.. edit options are expired :(

[Eloriel]

29. The proper way to FRAME the question is --

Do you AGREE with him or not?

If you and some of your members are under the impression that Dean has somehow FLIP-FLOPPED, you owe it to yourself FIRST, and then to your readers/members/Democrats everywhere and the whole bleepin' world to try to correct the misimpressions.

DISAGREE WITH HIM ALL YOU WANT -- that's not the problem here, but for God's sake, don't mischaracterize his position and his remarks.

Further, just so you know -- and this really is something you need to understand as well, in the more general sense -- there is NO innate or inherent logical disconnect between being against the war/invasion to start with and thinking we should stay once in order to help restore stability after we've destroyed stability (aka: fix what we broke or in Colin Powell's words: you break it, you own it).

[RetroLounge]

4. Your Poll is Bullshit

Whatta pantload of crap.

Dean has not wavered a bit.

RL

[madfloridian]

5. As a leader of a new progressive group, you need to research .

All the info you need is right on the internet. You should apologize for this poll. Your group can make a difference without making up stuff about the chairman....he has been consistent..totally.

[madfloridian]

10. To Kevin of PDA and Will Pitt of Truthout:

Here is a google search on "howard dean" iraq, "now that we are there"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=us&q=%22howard+dean%22%2C+iraq%2C+%22now+that+we+are+there%22&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

Enjoy and then apologize.

[Eloriel]

13. You go, girl.

I'm incensed and appalled -- and in Kevin's case, deeply disappointed. (What a cheap shot, so carelessly and off-handedly delivered.) Thanks for doing the research to make it absolutely clear for them.

[madfloridian]

21. Oh, there is lots lots more. I just took the easy way out also.

This infuriates me. Then they accuse of being sensitive? Damn right I am sensitive.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Read post 17

[Selatius]

12. If we had the power to pull every last soldier out tomorrow, should we...

do it? Regardless of the strength (or weakness) of the current Iraqi Assembly or the Iraqi National Guard?

[Eloriel]

19. That was always the quandary, wasn't it?

What was our responsibility, having "broken" Iraq into shatters?

Were we responsible for sticking around to try to bring back some semblance of stability, or would Iraq do as well if not better without us? There were good arguments on both sides, IMO.

Personally, I think it would take a Solomon to figure it out -- but in the absence of either that or a crystal ball, Dean's position was the responsible one. Dennis Kucinich's position, IIRC, was much riskier -- he thought we should just leave -- immediately -- and let the chips fall where they may. I could sometimes see and empathize with that notion, I just don't know that it wouldn't have meant the Afghanization of Iraq (rapid and inevitable descent into warlordism).

[mike_c]

32. if indeed Dean has always advocated the pottery barn solution...

...then it appears that my support for him during the primaries was misplaced. I was under the impression that he strongly opposed the invasion AND the occupation of Iraq, and called for ending them (as did DK). Perhaps I missed his statements urging the U.S. to finish what it had started, if he indeed made such statements. I must say I'm surprised by this, however.

I'm also surprised by the vehement reaction to this thread. Fighting about "what he really said" kind of misses the point, IMO. Should the chairman of the democratic party advocate "finishing what we started" in Iraq-- the pottery barn solution-- or should he advocate unqualified opposition to a failed and corrupt policy? I think the latter.

[Eloriel]

47. No, fighting about "what he really said" involves intellectual honesty

accuracy, the historical record, etc., etc., etc.

Whether you AGREE or not is an entirely different matter.

Sorry you feel you were apparently ill-informed during the primaries -- but I don't know what he or anyone could do to make you properly informed 'cause he certainly never hid or "nuanced" his position. :shrug: All you had to do was follow his campaign a bit, as I and many others did.

Should the chairman of the democratic party advocate "finishing what we started" in Iraq-- the pottery barn solution-- or should he advocate unqualified opposition to a failed and corrupt policy? I think the latter.

There again, it is entirely possible while still being logically congruent to advocate unqualified opposition to a failed and corrupt policy while still seeing a need to keep troops there. In Dean's case, he's also always advocated "internationalizing" the forces he felt needed to remain -- but that still wouldn't get ALL U.S. troops out of there.

[mike_c]

50. once again, I think this argument is trying to "nuance" the...

...essential point. Does the chairman of the Democratic Party advocate continuing the occupation of Iraq, or not? Personally, I rejected the pottery barn justification long ago-- recall that "moderate" republicans and the DLC got a lot of mileage out of that argument too, so if Dean has some better reason for supporting the occupation, I'd like to hear it. The pottery barn rule is utterly bankrupt, IMO.

Please understand that from my perspective this is not about Howard Dean per se-- my DU sig was once "Dean or Green in 2004," and I'm Green now, so I'll stand behind my support for Dean's primary candidacy. For me it is about the democratic party's position regarding the invasion and occupation of Iraq, today. Dr. Dean is in a position to advocate an opposition stance and in so doing, influence the party's direction.

[Eloriel]

55. No, TWO different points. You're CONFLATING them. Stop it.

One point: Does the chairman of the Democratic Party advocate continuing the occupation of Iraq, or not? And do you agree?

The OTHER point -- is his current position consistent with his previous position or a flip flop?

TWO SEPARATE POINTS.

No goddamn "nuance" at all. Your insistance on conflating them, as if they're even related except by subject matter, is maddening.

For me it is about the democratic party's position regarding the invasion and occupation of Iraq, today. Dr. Dean is in a position to advocate an opposition stance and in so doing, influence the party's direction.

And you have no position on whether Kevin MISREPRESENTED Dean's position? THAT's what this whole brouhaha is about. I don't flippin CARE whether you think Dean is right or wrong, whether the pottery barn solution is morally bankrupt or not, that's a different issue. You're on your own. Who cares? I don't.

I DO, however, care when Dean's or anyone's words or positions are misrepresented, and I have spoken up vociferously when, for example, even during the primaries I saw some candidate I didn't support being misquoted or misrepresented.

[mike_c]

60. I think a chill pill is in order....

Peace.

[madfloridian]

16. This statement from the OP is a lie.

"It appears he has moved away from his primary stance.

In the Primary he stated:

Remarks By Gov. Howard Dean (Democratic National Committee Winter Meeting Washington, DC February 21, 2003 / TRANSCRIPT) "What I want to know is why in the world the Democratic party leadership is supporting the president's unilateral attack on Iraq."

and just two days ago HE, now the "party leadership" stated this:

“Now that we’re there, we’re there and we can’t get out,” he told an audience of nearly 1,000 at the Minneapolis Convention Center. “The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before. But I hope the President is incredibly successful with his policy now that he’s there.”

Kevin, be ashamed.

[Kevin Spidel]

25. be ashamed of what?

Shareing the hundreds of emails we are getting? want me to post them?

I am trying to feel the DU'ers out on this one, honestly. PDA activists are really hurt by the latest comment.

FACT: many progressive dems are hurt by it and emailing PDA
FACT: many feel it is a flip flop
FACT: members of PDA are split on how to deal with it
FACT: some want to grill him hard publicly
FACT: some want to ignore
FACT: some feel he has not flip floped
FACT: we are trying to figure our if we can address this issue with a divided base

so I come here and put up questioend based on input I am getting.

I am sorry if this hurts you, but I don't think I need to be ashamed. I am posting FACT. Many activist FEEL that this is a flip flop. I have not even given MY opinion yet. I am simply using your feedback as input. And believe me, even the name calling and all helps. This is really showing us that DU'ers NOT PDA'ers feel.

So thank you for the feedback.

But sorry.. I don't feel ashamed, nor a need to appologize. These are not MY thoughts. This is a test to feel where people stand on the issue.

[madfloridian]

28. You lied about Howard Dean's stance. You should correct your clients.

Instead of proliferating a lie. I don't care how you feel about getting out of Iraq. I don't know how I feel. If all your PDA folks are saying the same thing...it does not make it true.

Your statement was not true. He has not changed his stance at all on leaving.

[Kevin Spidel]

30. thx for the feedback...

i hope the edits have made it clearer. I am trying to gain input here.

[Eloriel]

49. Kevin -- I appreciate

that you now seem to understand the truth and I appreciate very much that you came to DU for input, etc.

I really DO feel it is PDA's responsibility to correct the record for your members. I really do. If you don't, who will? If they are turning to you, they are looking for your leadership, PDA's leadership.

You say elsewhere that you are on speaking terms with Dean. Why not contact him, explain how his remarks affected (and were misinterpreted by) a large number of people -- our base! -- and ask him to give you a clarification or written statement, or whatever. Perhaps you're already on this.

I really do feel strongly tho that it IS your and PDA's responsibility to help correct the record and misinterpretations -- to help smooth and facilitate communication and understanding where there's an obvious need. I hope you will agree.

Hell, you might also remind them that Dean has "no policy role," so his opinion is worth exactly nothing, in reality.

[madfloridian]

52. Correct, and then call the ones who voted for it.

Tell them what you think as well. Howard Dean did not vote, he is being intellectually honest.

He can not change party policy, but he will at least listen.

[janx]

31. It isn't a flip-flop at all. Dean voiced his concern about Iraq

during the primaries and lamented that we couldn't just pull out all at once, since we created the mess in the first place.

If you're the leader of PDA, you are no doubt aware of the joint efforts of Democracy for America and PDA--not to mention Dean's current efforts as the chair of the Dem party.

You're should always strive for accuracy of information. Your initial post is inaccurate.

[NYCGirl]

34. PDAmerica needs to do its research and not rely on uniformed writers. NT

[madfloridian]

35. I posted yesterday that some progressive groups....

were 3rd party ready right now and might undermine the efforts of some of us to rebuild the party with grassroots involved.

I did not refer to your group, I refered to Kevin Zeese and his website. However, your post today is not healthy when it misrepresents what someone honest is about.

Did you see that nearly all of the donations coming in since Dean was chair were small donations? Over 12 million of the total 14 million. There is press release about it at the DNC website. It is a beginning, Kevin, and he is trying. Some of us want to rebuild the party itself and not become 3rd party yet.

I don't know about leaving Iraq, but I do know about undermining.

I edited to bold a statement above.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. What the hell? He's a politician doing politician things.

I'm not all that "disappointed". More like disgusted. Whether he changed his stance is irrelevant. It was wrong then, it's wrong now.

[madfloridian]

40. Then it is ok to post something untrue if you don't like a stance?

Don't do that, please.

If you don't agree, fine. But at least demand the truth.

[WilliamPitt]

43. See post 41

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Big deal. It's the stance that is in question.

Dean is taking the wrong stance on the war. That's the question to be addressed. Whether he said it in his campaign or now is begging the question.

I can't read the mind of the OP, but my guess is that he is questioning the stance that Dean is taking or reiterating.

Do you agree with the stance that we should keep the troops there and wish Bush success? I sure as hell don't.

[madfloridian]

51. Way to twist the issue....the issue is about truth in the OP.

It does not matter whether you agree with Howard Dean or not. The post contained untrue statements. It is a huge deal, telling the truth is a huge deal.

[mike_c]

54. I'm sorry, but if you really believe that "the issue..."

"...is about truth in the OP" then I'm afraid that you're missing the forest amongst the trees. Do you really think that is more important than getting to the bottom of just what the chair of the democratic party believes America's role in Iraq should be? With all due respect, that's incredibly myopic. Judging by the poll results, there are at least several of us who either misunderstood Dean's opposition to the invasion and occupation during the primaries, or several of us who are finding ourselves increasingly lost in the twilight zone of American politics where opposition to the war can morph into tacit support for it, without any apparent incongruity.

[madfloridian]

56. Aha! It is the chair's fault...hmmmm.. and oh, I have a question for you

Are you everyday holding the feet to the fire of those who voted for this war?

Are you calling them to remind them? Or would you rather bash the chairman...who had no war vote, and who sets no policy.

Gotcha.

[Eloriel]

59. Yep, we're on the same wavelength again

And got there about the same time. This line or argumentation from Mike is disruption, pure and simple. Now, the question is, is it intentional disruption or not? :shrug: Who knows? Not our place to try to figure that out, is it (except for ourselves, of course)?

[Eloriel]

57. We KNOW what he believes.

YOU and perhaps a few others are the ones -- the ONLY ones -- with the "problem" about what he believes and when he believed it.

As I just said in another post in response to you: I don't flippin' care what you think about Dean's current or previous position on whether or not we should stay in Iraq. To be honest, I don't even care what *I* think on the subject anymore because it don't mean a hill o' beans.

But I do care about people misrepresenting ANYone's comments or statements or positions. I care because I care about the truth, and accuracy.

And btw, what Dean thinks doesn't matter a hill o' beans either. If you remember, (again to repeat myself), he HAS "no policy input or position" as DNC chair.

[Eloriel]

53. No, the stance is a SEPARATE question from the misrepresentation

of it as flip-flopping and a change from any previous position.

This kind of argument -- that mischaracterizing the remarks as a change doesn't matter -- frankly puzzles me.

Is it that little things like accuracy and truth and "scholarship" and intellectual honesty and the historical record don't matter to you that it's okay to have what are lies, however inadvertent, or misunderstandings about one of our prominent Dems is okay with you? Do you have no respect for the truth? Really, I'd like to know.

Agreeing or not with the position itself is a completely different matter.

[mike_c]

58. with all due respect, "the position" is ALL that matters, IMO....

Does the chairman of the democratic party believe that the United States, or another entity acting in the U.S. interests, should continue to occupy Iraq for one day longer? What does the party chair advocate for the party's position? If the pottery barn rule is morally bankrupt when applied to a nation that doesn't want us to "fix" it, is it any less morally bankrupt to advocate that "rule" as the basis of U.S. policy, or at least the democratic party's position on that policy?