spanking, drug the kids..........may, end of school......back OFF

[seabeyond]

as a parent i say this here and there and everywhere. may, is the toughest time of the year. the toughest month. teacher, parent and children, a large portion of my world are workin their f*in ass of this month. tests, work to get done, grades to bring up after the lull, spring friggi n fever, kids tired and ready to play. focus focus focus; the main objectives. throw in a 10 yr old bday, first hunting trip of a sensitive soul to be a man, but what a gentle male he is, a 12 year old neice to raise, reports to do, fun to be had, programs and field trips

mom to mom

i look each in the eye. anyone of you that looked me in the eye in judgement of a parent and the spanking nonspanking.

i would simply say, fuck you, you dont have a clue about a thang

you arent in my home, you dont know me, you see nothing. not a thing

so irrelevent.

the only thing you bring into my world, is get out of my way, i have work to do. if you cannot take a minute to look in my eyes, and see my love, or the time to feel my warmth and joy and love.....then go away

i think these are the most retarded and damaging conversations of democrats. i have said often i could walk away from democrat. not one, never have been. i have allowed because i want the numbers big on this side. i want the world of 80% to be one, to the fundie 20%

but no woman, is going to stand in the hall of a school, and look me in the eye, and tell me, if i chose spanking, i am any less a parent.

confidently, i will take anyone on. i know my imperfections. it is cool. i have no need to be perfect, i know it cannot be done. i know where the criticism is in my parenting, and i have put thought into it. and i still chose my way. and will have to suffer any repercussion, what i do have going for me, i feel, faith, in love, anything i do, if it is in love, ultimately, it will be ok

i have confidence in this

drugs. democrats did this. end of 80's, 90's ah the victim. no one responsible. these miracle drugs. all the parents working making the money, the needed to protect themselves of guilt, not being a nurture to children. they grabbed onto drugs as a life perserver. and the dems, hand out those drugs. only fair to the children. they were the ones telling me, if i went against their wisdom, i was the bad parent. now, having a "one" of these children, i did research. on behavior yada yada, i look at family genetically. i did the foot work. i am looking and finding solutions. doing with my child. being told i need to embrace the nontruth, there is no answer but a drug. and since you are such an irresponsible parent, we have to take parenting away from you, and do it for you

nu uh i say

the fundies jumped onto it half a decade later, for greed. and now here we are

after seeing a decade of drugged kids, and where we are heading. most parents now, take the time to research and find non drugging solutions.

i am not allowing fundies to tell me how to be parent,
i am not allowing democrats to tell me how to be parent
nor my neighbor
a person on internet that knows nothing,......about me lol
a government
an in law

and why i ask, does anyone have the expectation i would.

filling out cafeteria check this morning, in the rush. i couldnt remember month. went to talk. then couldnt remember day........and was real proud after a minute of thought, i figured out what year we were in

oh a mad house

why wouldnt we support. just why wouldnt we, as another mom helped me figure all this out

a precious 4 year old kept looking at me with her beautiful blue eyes, full of love, she kept distracting me.

[ArkDem]

1. Reminds me of an old Nat King Cole song..

[seabeyond]

3. ? n/t

[ArkDem]

92. Ramblin Rose

[seabeyond]

102. i dont have that in my music

i think i need that in my music. will have to talk to husband. his area. you are right, tis a ramble, was all for me. really didnt expect a soul to respond. lol. a lot in humor, just many couldnt hear it i guess

[Misunderestimator]

117. Indulge me... which parts were humor?

I must have missed them.

[seabeyond]

119. i know you missed the humor, it is the morning routine

of kids and school and end of year, the month of may

[Inland]

2. Threads went off point.

To condemnation of methods of child rearing.

Arguments could be made about what constitutes child abuse, but if one agrees that spanking is not per se child abuse, then opinions of parents as to what's best for their children should get some deference and not condemnation.

[seabeyond]

4. lol lol, ? n/t

[seabeyond]

107. i re reaD

lol lol you are right. and all i am saying. and in such simplicity. i used so many words, when just a few were needed. i think that is the argueing point. "what constitutes child abuse"

[undergroundpanther]

5. why

a precious 4 year old kept looking at me with her beautiful blue eyes, full of love, she kept distracting me..

Than why on Earth would you if she frustrated you,would you take your hand and hit her?

Spanking is bullying and bullying breaks trust it is betrayal.

Look at this site spanking hurts.

And I make no excuses for my parents,hitting.I know I must have been a difficult kid..
I know parenting is a very difficult job.But hitting is not a solution any more than drugging is,it makes the problem go away by taking away the complaining acting out,the rebellion and symptoms of a problem. Some rebellion might be healthy,and when a parent is not healthy they are the last ones to notice it.
http://www.nospank.net/

Could it be the way we have to run about, get shit done or else all the time,no rest no community,no time.. all this coercion and pressure built into the fabric of our sick competitive/discipline/pro spank and self esteem building,tolerate the bully focused culture(the two extremes of the same faulty inadequate solutions) sickens all of us .What if the kids,the mentally ill,and those who stand outside the"norms" are who SEE it the most clearly? The people everyone bushes off as fools.

http://www.psychohistory.com/

The children are the future and they are not here to serve the past or be owned by it. But the way things look the past has the future by the throat and the voice is strangled and it comes out in suicides and underachieved and the road to whatever.

http://www.myparentime.com/articles/05/articleS485.shtml

[seabeyond]

6. Than why on Earth would you if she frustrated you,would you take your hand

huh where did you get i hit anyone,. and why would you assume i was frustrated with love. oh no no.......that love was drawing me in, i was going into huge smiles, merging with those eyes in love, then i would have to pull self away, to focus,....

will read the rest of post, but a big wow

you have such an agenda, you dont know what you are talking about. why so many dont listen to you and why (one of the reasons) parent stay away form democrats.

btw, i dont spank. i didnt say i did. you assumed

[undergroundpanther]

19. OK

Sorry. I assumed.Glad you aren't a spanker.

But this left me wondering...

mom to mom

i look each in the eye. anyone of you that looked me in the eye in judgment of a parent and the spanking nonspanking.

i would simply say, fuck you, you dont have a clue about a thang

you arent in my home, you dont know me, you see nothing. not a thing

so irrelevent.

Is spanking issue irrelevant to you? or not?


I have seen "democrats" on DU talking like right wingers here .
Just get them rolling on those"Darwin awards"and fat people,it sounds like Fred Phelps bashing the gays.

I do have more of a clue than you assume as well. I might not be eloquent all the time,but I too care.

In reality EVERYONE has an agenda of one form or another,to pretend we don't have our own agendas is bullcrap.



I hate Bush's new freedom initiative, that is the program to drug kids on a nationwide scale.It's a horrible thing disguised as benign.

I hate all child abuse and spanking.Kids need some rights of their own because not all adults or parental adults are good people.And adults need rights because not all kids are raised in a pro social way.Spanking like New freedom is a horrible thing disguised as benign.

I hate the way bullies and exploitative people and institutions are excused glorified and enabled in this culture.
I hate the way our communities our neighborhoods are atomized and attacking each other instead of attacking what is really harming them in our social structures.

I think gays, fat people,or anyone else has a right to be who they are without being harassed,belittled,scapegoated,and torn apart by others for being who they are and existing when they are not hurting anyone.

I hate the fact Washington, corporation and church is not accountable to the people who get hurt by these institutions and their 'leaders'.

I think people need to no trust authority figures and lead themselves from their own sense of empathy and ethical wisdom more be responsible and caring for others who get hurt by exploiters at the same time.

I hate the way people have no time
to relate to each other as just people .

I hate social Darwinism and inverted self responsibility that is popular these days.It's elitism dressed up as something benign.

I hate the way the Horatio Alger myth is used to reinforce despair and false hope and it exploits people in need or who have dreams.

I hate the way the rich are isolated from the results of their own greed and avarice and the way society says that is OK.

I believe in human rights over corporate rights,and free speech,and when a person misuses free speech I think free speech should be used to denounce their bullying and verbal abuse and call it what it is(people like Rush)and the bully fend for themselves until they beat a hasty retreat in shame.The media has basically given bullies a platform of sound bytes where no one with reasoned arguments can oppose them in this quip format.

I don't think depriving people of the basic necessities of life is humane, right or sane for any reason including making profit..

I think church, state and corporation need thick walls around themselves and they should not blend.

I think people are not always responsible for being victimized by predatory exploiters of human vunerability..The exploiters are responsible always for taking advantage and being predatory twords vulnerable people. I think clean fair trials can help sort it all out. The rule of law is important to keep the people who do not respect other people from exploiting people for profit or power or whatever.When law gets corrupted,different things must be done to protect the people from the same predatory exploitation now deemed "legal"..

I think religion or beliefs confers no rights to abuse, it is not an excuse to bully and dehumanize other people.

I think pedophiles who are caught more than twice and convicted on both counts should be locked up forever or killed because they do not rehabilitate.Their lives are not worth the risk they pose to all of us when they have their freedom.

I think parents need help raising kids when their parents did not role model healthy parenting to them and they end up hurting their kids,and kids need help getting away from bad parents, they need rights,and safe havens,that are neutral spaces.(not church run).
Parents do not own their children,likewise we are all responsible for being there for kids in danger.All people and all kids need someone to be there..they deserve human rights,compassion and caring and someone to listen to them and help when things get tough. We need to be there for each other..we need a community.

This is alot of my agenda..
What parts offend?

[redqueen]

76. Well I say lock up the pedophiles for life on the first offense...

and that parents shouldn't lose their children automatically, but be forced to take parenting classes. Children need their parents... if they can be taught effective means of parenting I think we should make every effort to try that first.

Other than that, I agree 100%!

[seabeyond]

101. so a family i look at that has spanked

i know they are doing good in life. we send them to parent class. are these classes costing them money. so all those families totally exhausted doing their best to make it through their days, we send them to class. stressed a little more to find the time and money for these classes well worth it

k

i put yelling right there with spanking. i have gone into yell. and then later talk to child and see the hurt in him equal to a spank. so you do that with spanking. we do it with all parents that yell.

you know what all those parents that dont put the time like i really really believe a parent should do, off to school to

who is going to decide who needs the parenting class and who doesnt

your world not mine. i am not so arrogant to decide whether a family is good enough or not. not withholding abuse. which i would like kept real clear and unquestionable. you put up my firend that has a couple to handful of times spanked her children, would be laughed out of the courts as an unfit unkowing mom

again i will reiterate, what drives people away from deomcratic party

but if the person that spanks goes to class,,gonna have to send a whole lot more parents to class

if you want to suggest you need parenting class to have kids, will fight you on this one too. it would be good yada yada. i started reading before, during and after pregnancy, eveything i could get my hands on babies and children. i would suggest this to all new parents. i would never make it law, requirement

[redqueen]

103. You don't make them pay for the classes.

Do criminals pay for jail?

Sheesh.

You didn't clarify your other post... where you implied you hurt your childrens' feelings. Do you?

[seabeyond]

105. bah hahahah You don't make them pay

right. well yes, when you go to court and are found guilty everyone i know has had to pay for the fines ect.....pay for the parole time, pay for the counseling, court fees. one of the absurdities. further, we have bush. he isnt going to give help for free that is for sure

of course i have hurt my children. but we speak to each other in love, even in anger. we pretty much recognize it for what it is. we spend tons of time with each other. we talk and listen to each other. over the years they see i am easily on their side, they know i respect and love them, so we talk. part of interaction and lesson in being a family. they respect and trust me too

i have never purposely hurt my children. tried to be mean to them. i believe we are all aware when we do that, willingly step over the line. we dont tease in this house, cause so easily to hurt or make less.

but no i am not perfect. yelling in and of itself hurts the head. we knew this as kids, our kids tell us now, and every man i know says when a woman yells hurts so bad. get it from their moms. there will be times when i will recognize i have gone a time in yell. and well say to the kids, yuk.....look what i am doing. no more. stop the yell. generally me saying it out loud allows all of us to see our part in it and make a conscious effort not to do, or do something that will result in a yell. or figure out what the yelling is and resolve the issue.

we work together well. non perfectly. we acknowledge my non perfect. it allows my kids to embrace their non perfect. and not beat themselves up over it. also shows them how to own it, and shift it

not a bad thing in and of itself, if you take advantages of the opportunities given

life. life happens. it is what you do with it

[seabeyond]

108. my look

the look that is to stop them in their tracks. when they are mouthing, or being disrespectful,.....i can turn a look on them that is meant to intimidate, give them fear. so basically it is the same thing. it is the dont dare roll your eyes, or use that tone. it is the i am boss you are not. it is, this is not a democracy

i dont have all of us on same level of equality in this house. they are children i am adult.

so in giving them a look or a tone in my voice is exactly to cause fear, for them to pause in behavior and rethink if they really want to do what they are about to do

it is all just degrees of the same thing. it is where the line is going to be drawn on abuse.

as i said, i was a sensitive child, took nothing for me to feel the pain of parental disapproval.

[Misunderestimator]

36. That assumption would be born from the original post

whether you do it or not yourself, it is clear at least that you defend spanking, no?

[seabeyond]

43. i defend a parents right, yes

i dont defend spanking

[Misunderestimator]

61. A dichotomy, you defend the parents' right to spank, but not spanking

itself? Color me very confused now.

[seabeyond]

63. i odnt defend avocate like or do abortion

i defend a persons right to chose an abortion. i have said this in other posts. i dont see why you dont see a difference. i dont like hurting another, in any form,........i am much more sensitive than others in this. my pain odometer is any slight is causing pain, any making a person less is wrong. it is as great as a wrong as kickin the shit out of someone

well, the whole world cant be run off my sensitivity, surely.

so there are things in life, where though i dont like them, nor do them, nor have them in my life, i cannot tell a person they too must live life my way

[Misunderestimator]

66. Wow! Where did that come from?

I didn't say a word about abortion. I'm ignoring that little analogy completely, since it makes not a lick of sense.

As for the rest of your post... huh???

[redqueen]

72. The abortion flip flop is one way of avoiding the issue, I think.

Bring up another issue which is related only tangentially, and try to push the person onto that instead of continuing to debate whether or not it's a good idea to defend parents' right to hit their children.

[seabeyond]

74. i am not defending the parent hitting a child

if you want to use that word, fine. i am saying, that i defend the right of a parent to decide hitting or not. i decide not. you decide not. annette, a friend, decides to. i defend her right to use spankin as a form of punishment

i am not using abortion to change the arguement. i am using abortion, cause in my mind they are things people may disagree on, but we cannot pin our belief on another, restricting them.

[Misunderestimator]

77. If an adult spanks me, it sure as hell is HITTING...

why would we redefine the word when we hit children? If anything, it's more abusive and wrong than hitting an adult.

[seabeyond]

84. ok misunderstood and you be sure to go after every parent that yells

dont you dare be a hypocrit. all parents that tease their kids. that push them beyond what is healthy. that dont push them at all. you make sure you create your lilly white parenting. because you have created any hurt cause to a child, under any circumstance, abuse.

i would no more make less a parent that is angry and yells than one that slaps a butt. do you see a difference. then i question you. all parents that yell, for me, are equal to the spanker.

oooops, thats me. so i am right there with my friends that spank their children. equally a bad parent

what do you want to do now.

[Misunderestimator]

93. Yells? Hardly... We were talking about hitting here, not yelling.

Though yelling can also be emotionally abusive.

What do I want to do now? End this conversation right here. Thanks.

[Beware the Beast Man]

97. Hmm.

[nonconformist]

113. Because it's simply not that black and white

The "if you did this to an adult" analogy doesn't really work that well. If you grounded an adult, you would be arrested for false imprisonment. Does that mean you shouldn't ground a child?

There is a huge gray area here and anyone who claims otherwise is simply kidding themselves. There is no steadfast right or wrong here.

[seabeyond]

71. you defend the parents' right to spank, but not spanking

i dont believe in spanking. i think a parent has the right to spank

please tell me why that isnt clear

i dont believe in abortion. i think a woman has the right to chose

now, you are telling me this is confusing. you dont get it. cause, i dont get you not getting it. simple words

i dont like guns, and have non. i think a person has the right to own them

[Misunderestimator]

75. So, then, I should have the right to hit your children too?

Why should only the parents be allowed? And why just children? Shouldn't everybody be allowed to hit anyone they are angry with, or who does something they don't like, or disobeys them?

[seabeyond]

86. you got me with your logic

totally took me down on that one. i give

[Misunderestimator]

34. Great post.

:thumbsup:

[bloom]

7. I think it is a valid discussion to have

and here is as good a place as anywhere.

[seabeyond]

8. that is fine

so i discuss. and i am saying

i dont spank, i defend a parents right to
i dont do abortin, i defend a females right to
i dont like guns, i defend a persons right to them
totally oppose drug for kids, parent decision
i am not gay, i defend a gays right to .....be

[redqueen]

9. Having an abortion involves a fetus, not a child.

Guns... how does that relate to hitting one's children? :shrug:

Drugs are medicine... physicians and parents and users say they help. Do you think they also inflict pain?

Gay? How does being gay relate to hurting people?

I'm completely confused by the point of this post.

And the 'fuck you' in the OP? I probably shouldn't even have read past that, honestly. You don't spank, but you rant and rail against these imaginary people who have 'judged you'. Newsflash: no one is judging anyone else. They are judging the ACT of HITTING CHILDREN.

The defensiveness about this subject is really... something.

[seabeyond]

12. no one is judging anyone else. lol lol i disagree

i tell you my parents spanked me with a belt. it did me no harm. are you going to argue with me. are you going to tell me it did too

[redqueen]

14. Of course not. Not all smokers get cancer.

Will you therefore encourage people to somke? Say it usually does no harm so go for it?

[seabeyond]

15. have i said a thing about encouraging people?

where did that come from. agenda possibly

[redqueen]

16. Acceptance = encouragement

If you say 'hey it's okay with me if you hit your children', that, in my book, is encouragement.

[seabeyond]

17. is that what we do, encourage people to have an abortion

by supporting their right to have an abortion?

[redqueen]

18. We encourage them to fight for their right to do so. n/t

[Terran]

28. "acceptance = encouragement"

At least have the courage of your convictions here. We as progressives "accept" abortion as necessary. Therefore, apparently, we "encourage" abortion. You can't have it both ways.

[redqueen]

32. I do.

I accept that people have the right to have abortions. I do not accept that people have the right to hit their children.

Semantic games do not amuse me.

[Terran]

40. You're not understanding, perhaps deliberately

You blame seabeyond for encouraging people to spank their kids because she accepts spanking; thus your statement, "Acceptance = encouragement". Any yet later you deny that accepting abortion equals encouraging abortion. It looks to me like you're trying to apply your own logic where it's convenient, and deny your own logic where it's not convenient. Do you deny that you said any of this?

It's not a semantic game at all; it's a flip-flop.

[seabeyond]

45. step further, i dont even accept spanking

ergo, i dont do it to my kids. i accept the parents right to make that choice for their kids

[redqueen]

70. You two have fun with this.

:hi:

Perhaps I worded that phrase badly. I suspect you both know very well what I meant and are simply taking advantage of a semantic issue rather than debate the merits of defending parents' 'right' to hit their own children.

[Misunderestimator]

78. I'm with you there, redqueen...

it wins the prize for the most far-fetched analogy of the day.

[undergroundpanther]

20. I am against beating kids

Period,just because you are ok,doesn't mean EVERY kid will respond like you did. Why risk a bad response to a beating in a kid to ease a frustrated parent.Trauma is traumatic and spanking is one trauma that does not need to exist. Spanking is a choice,the choice to batter.

[Misunderestimator]

38. And i tell you my father beat me with a belt too...

and that it did me great harm... are you going to argue with me that it did not?

[undergroundpanther]

39. Only you can answer that FOR YOU

You can't answer for other kids who were hit. They are not you.

[Misunderestimator]

42. Why, yes I can very definitely answer for other kids who are hit...

because I know EXACTLY what they are going through. I would hope we would all WANT to protect kids from such abuse, but I guess you prove me wrong.

[seabeyond]

47. no, i was hit with a belt. you cannot answer for me

well you can answer for me, but betcha you will be wrong, lol

[Misunderestimator]

48. And I betcha YOU will be wrong when you answer for all the others

[seabeyond]

53. but i dont, i dont answer for others.

that is exactly my point of this whole post. i dont. i did an errand just now. there are five families, children 12 and under that i have known all their family lives. have spent enough time with them, and kids, to know them and kids. each one have spanked their kids. each kid is helathy and loved and smart and get the best in life. each family is uniquely good.

and you are wanting me to shake finger at these moms and say bad you bad. they would laugh at me, literally. we all know better. i know their kids are loved. i know the kids know it. i know they are in good homes

no, i wont decide for others. but i get to decide for myself

and if ever i see a kids in pain, i will be there for them. too harsh in mouth, too harsh in expectation, religion, discipline, i dont care, i will listen to the child. and help all i can.

[Misunderestimator]

55. actually, you are answering for all the kids who are being "disciplined"

by their parents in such a way.

I don't care a lick whether you shake your fingers at the parents... but if you come here and complain about people like me who DO have a problem with beating children, then expect to get some argument. I guess your ego translates that as caring whether you judge them.

No one ever saw me in pain... Don't think that children don't hide their pain from others.

[Misunderestimator]

109. Second answer from me, since editing time has expired...

I've read your other posts in this thread, and now understand that you meant to post your response to someone else and not me, or you didn't understand that I was against hitting children. Either way... this is one silly argument, isn't it? Appalling how many adults think it's ok to strike a child. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

110. nada

[Misunderestimator]

111. niente

[seabeyond]

46. no i am not. i would not

i dont do that. and i am sorry. i hope in time you can put it in your place. at a guess, and is only a guess, there were other things going on in that relationship that has you feeling this way. but that is purely a guess, and only a guess.

[Misunderestimator]

52. LMAO "I hope in time you can put it in your place"

:wtf: is that supposed to mean. How fucking FUNNY you are!!

Not that it's worthy of any more time from me to you, but I have most definitely "put it in its place" which is why I am an advocate AGAINST violence towards children.

[seabeyond]

54. think of me as darkness if

that comforts you. think of me as bad, if it does you good. all yours to do. doesnt have much to do with me. sorry for the pain you suffer. need more from me. dont know you very well so about all i can give.

[Misunderestimator]

60. You don't even read my posts, do you?

go ahead and interpret what I said as "darkness" or "bad" but stop condescending to me in your responses ("sorry for the pain you suffer"). I suffer no pain, as I wrote, and you didn't read, I have surpassed that and channeled it into caring about others.

To what language should I translate this to you, so that you will understand me?

[seabeyond]

65. i do read them

i am sincere in saying i am sorry you suffered pain. i did not interpret you post as saying you were out of pain, only that you had put it in its place. i am sorry i heard you wrong. (that is sincere too). i really dont think, though, there is going to be anything i say, that will be ok here.

[Misunderestimator]

67. Since your initial premise was to defend spanking...

and not much else since then has changed that... you're right... little you say will be ok with me.

[seabeyond]

73. i am not defending spanking. you do not get it n/t

[Misunderestimator]

94. I took the time to read your OP, and you definitely defend spanking.

I get it just fine.

[Lindacooks]

30. Yeah, methinks she doth protest too much.

[Terran]

10. I like your post a lot

Maybe from an artistic standpoint, if nothing else. It's poetry, stream of consciousness, almost. I like the way it shifts in and out of viewpoint.

I'm not a parent and never will be, but I found your viewpoint very interesting...some things I never had to think about.

And frankly, I find the semantics behind equating spanking with hitting to be very suspect. I was spanked as a kid, and every kid I knew got spanked. It's not the same as hitting; hitting causes physical damage, it's impulsive and uncontrolled and done with fists, not palms. Spanking is done for a specific purpose. To say that it is child abuse, and always the wrong thing to do, ignores reality.

[redqueen]

11. If I slap your face,

have I not hit you?

[seabeyond]

13. my mom was a face slapper

got it once young, being mouthy. learned not to be motuhy that is for sure. helped me out a lot when i turned 12

then we went thru our to do much older, 17, 18 and she slapped, i challenged, she slapped i challenged, adn one more time. she didnt break me. i didnt break

from then on we were one, ......was a huge experience in life. profound. have brought it up last two decades in what it taught me

my mom was also my greatest support. i trusted her beyond anyone, to only see the best for me. that was her love, her gift she gave to me

slapping is offensive to me. any physical or emotion or mental hurting hurts me, literally. not into it

[Terran]

21. Non sequitur

Spanking has a specific meaning that does not include face slapping; they are two entirely different things, even if both are done open-handed. It would be dishonest to attempt to equate them, so I'm sure that's not what you're doing...

I would never slap a child in the face. I would never slap any person in the face.

[redqueen]

81. Hitting is hitting.

I can't see all the attempts to say 'well this one form of physical violence is okay' as anything other than verbal gymnastics.

[seabeyond]

91. bah hahahahahah

and a lot of people dont like the way i post., huh. lol. or lordy. not that unclear to me. oh well

[BigMcLargehuge]

22. spanking parents have failed their children

spanking kids does not come out of some lofty belief that prescribing pain to correct some wrong in behavior will prevent the child from performing that behavior in the future. Spanking comes from frustration. I've felt it. I've had days when I thought "man, if I only put Ian over my knee..." but what would it solve? It certainly wouldn't prevent him from misbehaving, i know this because when my dad spanked me on the rare occasion he did, it didn't change my behavior.

Kids act up because the are either exploring or failing to communicate, for example, Ian may want to know what happens if he pours his milk glass on the coffee table, or he may be communicating that he didn't want milk he wanted juice.

How we choose to deal with those instances is what measures us as parents.

[undergroundpanther]

23. I wish you were my mom

Spanking is child abuse.I suffer still from it's effects. The betrayal,feeling home was not safe,that nobody cared to hear me and what I was trying to say , and the humiliation I felt when my own mom and dat hit me was far worse than pain . Thier complauints were lost in my feelings of being made to suffer..without being heard..I hated them for it and to this day I do not trust my mom with my open heart.My dad is dead.

[demgurl]

57. Spanking is child abuse?

did your parents leave marks or something? Because in the eyes of the law it is NOT child abuse.

Do you know what 'child' abuse is? I will tell you about the last time I ever talked to my father. I was pregnant and my mom and dad were visiting my house. My dad took something my husband said as an attack on mom. It was not. Furthermore, mom was a big girl and they had been divorced for over 30 years at that point. Dad always has had a temper. Like when he got mad at mom and called grandma from half way around the world. He told grandma that mom had 24 hours to live. Mom came home to find bullet holes in the door.

I knew dad would surely hurt my husband and stepped between them while handing off our 1 year son to my husband. I was now between them and dad would have none of that. By God he was going to get his pound of flesh. He started hitting me. Yes, I hit back but I was pregnant and defending my family. He then went and put his hands around my neck and squeezed trying to choke me.

My husband had nowhere to set the baby - if he put him on the floor he might get stepped on and so he was completely helpless. I forgot to say that before all of this I had been sick and had been in my room naked. I stepped out of my room with only a blanket on. OF course, trying to save myself from being chocked, I let the blanket fall. There I was in all my pregnant glory with my father trying to choke me just so he could get to my husband for what he perceived as a slight.

Perhaps if spanking, that left no marks (if it left marks that would be child abuse and therefore hitting, not spanking) left you so troubled, you should do something about this. You should seek help so that you can have a better life and perhaps forgive your mom. I hope your life takes a better turn in the future.

[seabeyond]

62. i have had to step in between a father and brother before

i think this is another reason i like to keep the two seperated. dont believe in spanking fine. i dont. but to not use the word child abuse. that is too important a word. i think it is made less when spanking is added to it. i want the horror of the word to always be heard, when it is used

[redqueen]

79. "In the eyes of the law"

it used to be legal to beat your wife. Heard of the 'rule of thumb'?

Legal does not mean ethical. Our system evolves as we do. We shouldn't stop evolving then point to the system as our reason for not doing so.

[demgurl]

96. Well I wish the law would start evolving more....

because a spanking that does not leave a mark is not abuse as far as I am concerned. I hate when I go to social services and explain to them that a boy was put in a pig cage (which was laden with pig feces) and rolled down a hill with witnesses and they do nothing. I hate when the same boy is known to be scared to be left alone and as punishment his Mom's boyfriend locks him in a bathroom and leaves him alone in the house stating his mom would be home shortly. The boy freaked and broke the window with his fist. He ran to the neighbors and social services still did nothing. His brother confessed to a classmate that the boyfriend asks them to pick out their own piece of wood from the back yard and he 'spanks' them with it. (that is abuse,by the way)Still social services do nothing. The younger one asks us, when he is eight, if it is OK to ever punish a child by hitting him in the stomach. He admits the boyfriend has done so to him. Still they stayed with their mom.

I know what abuse is. I have seen it. I have fought against it to a point that we are excluded from lots of family functions. I know about the mental effects on a child. I have seen all of this. I know abuse. I also know, first hand, the system does fail.

[redqueen]

99. Yes, it's shameful social services are so underfunded

and poorly managed.

[Terran]

27. Hmmm,...

You know, I think you just insulted the parents of everybody here who ever got spanked. I got spanked, but my parents were not failures as parents; they were excellent parents. I suspect you never got spanked as a kid.

Permit me to clarify my stance on this a bit: spanking is a last resort. I don't think parents should be spanking their kids every time they knock a glass of milk over on the coffee table. Spanking is for when a child has already clearly been put on notice that they're out of bounds, and they fail to cease what caused that notice. It's an extreme, for extreme situations.

I'm not a parent, so that perhaps disqualifies me totally in many people's eyes. But I see how many parents let their kids act in public, and I feel that the whole concept of parental control over children has gone by the wayside. I don't believe that parenting can be a series of negotiations and bargains with children 100% of the time. Properly done, spanking teaches those kids that need it that there are limits to their autonomy, and that there are absolute rules of personal behavior that must be followed.

[BigMcLargehuge]

31. perhaps you missed this line in your asute character assessment of me

"It certainly wouldn't prevent him from misbehaving, i know this because when my dad spanked me on the rare occasion he did, it didn't change my behavior."

And I will infer, from your comment -

"I feel that the whole concept of parental control over children has gone by the wayside. I don't believe that parenting can be a series of negotiations and bargains with children 100% of the time. Properly done, spanking teaches those kids that need it that there are limits to their autonomy, and that there are absolute rules of personal behavior that must be followed.:"

- That, say, at work, assuming you worked under me, and crossed the line with regard to boundaries I set up, it would be perfectly acceptible for me to spank you when you crossed those boundaries.

You commented -

"Spanking is for when a child has already clearly been put on notice that they're out of bounds, and they fail to cease what caused that notice. It's an extreme, for extreme situations."

Define an extreme situation? is the child playing with a loaded handgun? Is the child torturing animals? Is the child simply not doing what is asked because he or she is demonstrating independence, because you know, they do that. Acting like a shithead in a restaurant or at the mall or some other public place is not extreme, and I've dealt with my kids in both (and more) situations. I've also been fortunate enough to guage what their behavior is like before leaving for those places and making a decision to go base on their anticipated behavior.

Sure, I probably do insult all parents when I say "parents who spank their kids have failed their children".

What are they going to do, spank me?

[Terran]

44. Apologies--I missed where you said you were spanked

Clearly spanking works on some kids and not on others. It worked on me.

That, say, at work, assuming you worked under me, and crossed the line with regard to boundaries I set up, it would be perfectly acceptible for me to spank you when you crossed those boundaries.

Clearly that's silly because we are discussing children, not adults.

Define an extreme situation? is the child playing with a loaded handgun? Is the child torturing animals? Is the child simply not doing what is asked because he or she is demonstrating independence, because you know, they do that. Acting like a shithead in a restaurant or at the mall or some other public place is not extreme, and I've dealt with my kids in both (and more) situations. I've also been fortunate enough to guage what their behavior is like before leaving for those places and making a decision to go base on their anticipated behavior.

I cannot define an extreme situation, because every situation is different, every kid is different. Which I think is ultimately why I think spanking is okay, because it's a personal decision for a parent to make, and not something to be broadly ruled out by a majority who may think it's always wrong. I wouldn't spank a kid for playing with loaded gun, most likely; but torturing animals? If I had already instructed my kid about that, you better believe the kid would be spanked for that, yes. As to acting like a shithead in public? Well, I don't think a kid should be allowed to act like a shithead for no good reason; again, it depends on *why* they're acting like a shithead. I imagine many kids act like shitheads because they know they can get away with it. As a father you must surely have observed that.

Your ability to guage your kids' behavior before taking them to public places is admirable, and probably saved you from many of those stifled impulses to smack their behinds. I seriously salute you for such good parenting.

Not overly concerned about the "insult"; but just think about what you said there. I reiterate, my parents never failed me as parents. They always had my best interests at heart, and when I was little there is no question that they knew what those were better than I did.

[undergroundpanther]

37. Spanking is wrong

Don't hit.

You can make a point without hitting can't you?

You can restrain distract and do other things.

And yes I intend to offend pro spankers because it is ABUSIVE.

Abuse is offensive and wrong. I don't care how frustrated you get hitting someone smaller than you whom it totally dependant on you,is bullying it is abuse.

[seabeyond]

49. i can take my kids down more with a look

and totally devastate them in a flash,......than what any spanking will do

i hope you realize this power you have as a parent. with a joke a tease, i can do more destruction than a smack on the butt. as long as we know mean, be it mentally, physically, emotionally, is mean. hurt is hurt. pain is pain

[redqueen]

88. Holy shit.

I hope I'm reading this wrong.

"with a joke a tease, i can do more destruction than a smack on the butt. as long as we know mean, be it mentally, physically, emotionally, is mean. hurt is hurt. pain is pain"

I don't condone verbal abuse any more than I do physical violence.

[RandomKoolzip]

80. Beautiful fuckin' post, Big.

Mad props to you and the other parents who see thru that "rod of correction" crap.

[BigMcLargehuge]

82. thanks

:)

[bobthedrummer]

24. Piss on their mind control efforts, drugs, for instance and the war on

drugs. Our children need loving discipline, including possible spankings, from us parents.

The "experts" are often corrupt mercenaries and/or fundies.

[undergroundpanther]

25. Disapline

as in hitting a kid when you are a big adult,is not love. Love does not include a huge imbalance of power by an adult using intimidation,fear and hitting to contyol a child who is afraid of you . What kind of S/M mindset have you got with this mixing love with domination.
D Misuse of power hurts even when it's supposedly"for your own good"

[bobthedrummer]

26. I expect a bit more than a vague S/M innuendo, why not go for slander?

You have issues about control then, you brought that up along with power.

I think you are not a parent? Am I correct about that?

[undergroundpanther]

33. I remember what it felt like

To be a kid. Do you remember?

. . . To be fully open to the baby's emotional needs is to become reacquainted with oneself as a baby, to reexperience the pain of being totally dependent and desperate in love and yet being shut out and feeling unwanted."
-- Robert Karen, Ph.D.

Do you remember howe it FELT like to be hit by the most important person in your life,whom, you depended on when you were sick or needed help? I don't care how you intellectualize this,it's traumatic.


I have helped out with my neices and nephew they are never spanked and they are happy and they are not arrogant thier parents respected them...

I am not a parent of my own kids.But this does not invalidate what I am saying here.There are other parents who understand spanking is a failure on the paren't part..
I refuse to have kids of my own because I NEVER want to be put in the position of possibly losing control of myself and hitting them. I could not live with myself if I betrayed my kids like that.So I choose to be childfree...I have the guts to admit I am not always the most stable person emotionally and I may not be parental material.I wish more people wiould do this BEFORE pregancy.. I have faced alot of traumas,I remember how it feels to be helpless and ignored. I do not trust my own ability to deal with the heavy issues kids bring up inside me.Why risk an innocent kid my wrath and frustration that comes from my parents modeling thier bad parenting to me.
So My route to parental self responsibility is by having NO kids.

And yes I do have control issues...
Especially when power is misused and control becomes hurtful and exists to reassure the dominators position..I wonder why YOU don't?


". . . addictive relationships . . . become that of two children in adult bodies, slugging it out, unaware that they are transferring all their anger and hurt about their parents onto their partner."
-- Charlotte D. Kasl, Ph.D. in Women, Sex and Addiction

Pulling out a belt and hitting butts with it is what S/M people do.

Why do you think that is?
Where do you think these people got the idea pain is love?



"The end result of man's biological evolution produced a helpless baby whose instinct is to form an intensely personal relationship, challenging the parent to regress and relate, rather than repress and be alone."
-- Lloyd deMause in The Foundations of Psychohistory

"So many of the patients have experienced a neglect of their most basic, deepest human needs -- for touching and for companionship, for sharing inner feelings, for expressing creative energy, for sexual fulfillment, for personal validation, and for the giving and receiving of love. Instead their lives were characterized by duty and obligation to the very people who gave them little or nothing in return."
-- Dennis Jaffe - Quoted in The Type C Connection: The Behavioral Links to Cancer and Your Health by Dr. Lydia Temoshok and Henry Dreher

[bobthedrummer]

41. Reminds me of an emotional moratorium, theoretically speaking.

Avoid this emoticon then, really:spank:

[demgurl]

68. I was awful as a kid....

and my Mom should have spanked me. I even told the doctor she should. But she chose the nonviolent ways described here. Did I adhere to punishments and time outs? No. She was divorced and had no strong man around to hold me down and she could hardly cope herself. I drove her out of the house and then locked her out. I threw lamps at her. I would never listen to her and her punishments. She would art her send me to a doctor to try and cure me instead of spanking. Well, that worked wonders when the doctor gave up after one session. Yes, she used time out.

In fact, I forget what I did but she kept me in time out all day once. How I remember that. Her boyfriend's little girl and me sitting in a chair all day.....at least when they were around. And of yeah, I remember the little creep (her boyfriend) coming in about a half hour before we were to be let out of time out. I remember the bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken he had and how he held it in front of us and waved it under our noses knowing that we had not had a thing to eat all day. Yeah, that time out made quiet the impression on me.

I do think Mom should have spanked me. And wonder why she did not. That being said, when I went to live with Dad for a year he caught me sleeping over at a guy's house. He hit me so hard I had bruises on me and not just on my bottom. That is not spanking. That is abuse. I believe, as does our government, that spanking has a time and place. I do not believe it should be done out of anger or frustration. It is not a way for a parent to vent their feelings and it should never leave a mark.

So it does not matter that people feel spanking is abusive because the government says it is not. I do wish my Mom had done it though.

[Lindacooks]

29. Sorry, that's not the way this country works.

There are laws set up to protect the most vulnerable among us - including children. If CPS decides you are harming your children, they have the right to interfere in your life. Hell, they have the right to take away your children. So quit with the 'they're MY children and I'LL decide what to do with them!' whining. That's not reality.

[Bouncy Ball]

35. I like you, but I really have to be honest here, I have a hard

time reading your posts. And I know at one time you said English is your second language, so I really try to read them, but this one just lost me.

Yes, things are tough and stressful this time of year. I was just in a school yesterday that had five fights in one day.

But that's no excuse to act horribly towards kids (whatever your examples were, I'm not sure). We're still the adults, we still model the behavior we want them to emulate, we still set the tone and if we don't act like adults, no one will.

Believe me.

[seabeyond]

56. i dont act horribly to kids

sorry my post are tough to read

[Bouncy Ball]

59. Please, don't apologize.

I apologize.

Anyway, I wasn't saying you act horribly to kids, but I am not ever going to defend or excuse adults who DO. That includes getting up in their face and screaming full-tilt, that includes acting nasty to them, taunting and insulting them, humiliating them, etc.

It's just inexcusable. We're supposed to be the adults.

[cmd]

50. I love you, seabeyond

You have just described real life in real America. Hang in there; the school year is just about over. Hugs to you and your precious family.

[seabeyond]

58. back at you

had to go into a bit of a laugh. ah. that is nice. was feeling kinda like a whiipin boy here. lol.

tis a lot of fun too. the month of may

[JNelson6563]

51. That was almost coherent

By all means, hit your kids and tell you 'em you love 'em. And when they are confused by it all read 'em this post.

I have always tried to be supportive of my fellow moms. I have never supported hitting children.

Julie

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

69. i'z one of those good kids in class

never got in trouble. never made mistakes. lol lol. nope. my teachers loved me. i waz easy, lol. a perfectionist.

then sometime a couple years ago, poof to all grammatical rules. i dont know what happened. they just went away. now

i just sing song thru life

[StopTheMorans]

104. .

:thumbsup:

[stevedeshazer]

83. This reads like the work of someone on really good drugs.

Cut off the head, and the body will die.

[RandomKoolzip]

85. I was thinking "really bad" ones.

Kinda reminds me of Henry Darger in a way, too.

[stevedeshazer]

100. LOL!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

87. me like grammar good, good stuff. oh I like

yes


nuff said.

[Misunderestimator]

95. ...

:spray:

[Beware the Beast Man]

98. Yes.

[conflictgirl]

89. I need to ask a question

It sounds like you're saying no one can judge you for spanking your kids, but you have decided that all psychoactive drugs are bad (I wouldn't disagree, I don't give them to my kids either). That sort of sounds like you're judging people who give those drugs to their kids, and wouldn't be the same as people judging you for spanking?

If you weren't being judgmental toward parents who give their kids those drugs, then my apologies. :)

[seabeyond]

90. i dont spank my kids

i dont give my kids drugs

i understand a parent decides to drug their kids or spank their kids.

[Padraig18]

106. Sorry, but hitting anyone, except in self-defense, is wrong.

I will not only get in your face,but I will call the police; I used to be a cop, and I've seen the results of violence-oriented child rearing--- it doesn't work.

[Misunderestimator]

114. I didn't know you used to be a cop too.

glad we agree on this issue, btw.

[Cuban_Liberal]

115. I forgot to sign him out, before I posted.

I didn't reqalize he'd logged on while I was at class.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

112. Reminds me of the woman who slapped her kid in the face in the airport

a few years back for anwering her back..reflexively, I slapped her in the face and asked her how SHE liked it...then I dared her to make an issue of it..she was stunned

[seabeyond]

120. wow, then i guess it means two of the same clothe

i have never slapped anyone in the face, or anywhere else for that matter, but hey, justify away

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Yeah, well..I've never hit a poor defenseless kid..justify away

[seabeyond]

122. i havent either n/t

[Misunderestimator]

123. Sure, but you defend the rights of adults to hit defenseless kids.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

121. Yeah, well..I've never hit a poor defenseless kid..justify away

[allerna332]

116. some kids need discipline

i dont advocate hitting kids, but some kids really do need discipline, some parents just dont teach their child the difference between right and wrong, what to do and what not to do and they grow up to be thieves, murderers, rapists and so on

[Kazak]

118. Was that English?

:shrug: