Are We at "Civil War"?

[mtnsnake]

I think we are, even though there are no tanks in the streets and no bombs being dropped....and no bloodshed, thank goodness.

When the "other party" is responsible for attacking an innocent country half way across the world and killing hundreds of thousands of their people, along with killing and maiming thousands of its own young people in the name of oil, they (the "other party") are not on OUR side.

When the "other party" does their best to eliminate "checks and balances", they are not just another party. They are attempting to be the supreme rulers of the land, and they want us to become their subjects.

When the "other party" is responsible for torturing prisoners of war, they are not our fellow countrymen. Our true fellow countrymen would never do something like that.

When the "other party" is willing to clear-cut our forests and kill off our endangered animals for the purpose of padding the wallets of the rich, they are not on our side. Far from it.

When the "other party" preaches hatred toward its own people, they are no longer just the other party; they are the other SIDE.

The other SIDE is a large group of malicious people whose intents are the opposite of ours. It's the opposite of what America has stood for over the course of centuries. It's unfortunate to say this, but they have made themselves into our enemy. They've been preaching hatred towards us and anyone else who doesn't live up to their own narrow-minded ideology. Whether or not we realize it, we've been fighting the enemy for months, maybe years. We might not be blowing each other's brains out, but we're fighting them tooth and nail to take our country back and return it to being a country for all Americans again. The enemy is not only overseas; it's right here in our backyards.

We need to continue fighting tooth and nail to restore dignity to what was once the greatest country in the world. This goes way beyond petty differences. Yup, I really think we're in the midst of a "civil war" of sorts.

As long as we don't let them push us around, there will be better days ahead.

Never give up.

[Hugin]

1. Recommended... n/t

[whistle]

2. The shooting war will follow when all voices of reason are....

...drownded out.

[mpyle27]

36. 2012

Civil War II begins. I hope not, but that is my guess. My opinion is formed from being a blue dot in a red state.

[newyawker99]

64. Hi mpyle27!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[mpyle27]

65. Thanks!

[lala_rawraw]

3. Cold Civil War, yes

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. Agreed. Cold Civil War.

Relationships have been strained, and in my world, the relatives and acquaintances who are right-wing, now know that I can live without them. Some get angry, and indignant, others get pensive. Couldn't care less. If they treat me with the same good manners they would give a stranger, it would be an improvement.

[mpyle27]

35. Wow, I am not alone!

I did have 3 brothers but now I have 1 (he's on the right too, but we have fun yelling at each other). I mean they are still alive but our relationships have certainly been strained. I like your attitude.

[Inland]

33. "Cold civil war", like that. NT

[mtnsnake]

39. Yes, "cold" civil war is the perfect way to phrase it in a nutshell

Kudos for that!

[lala_rawraw]

53. You know, I was looking for a title for an article I am trying

to finish... an op-ed/essay sort of thing... and it talks about this very thing, but I was having problems with title. I am really happy this occurred to me here and that it went over well, so that will be the title. i am really excited now.

[mpyle27]

66. I know...

what article you are talking about. Let me do a little research. It was an excellent essay. It was by a guy from New England, correct? At least, I think we are talking about the same article.

[grytpype]

4. The Civil War never really ended...

The South has fought against Northern ideals of justice and civil rights all the way up to the present day...

now they think they have finally won the war and are going to impose Southern ideals on the rest of the country...

fuck them, I say let them secede again, and good riddance

[Bonhomme Richard]

9. You are right but it actually began

when the founding fathers were writing the constitution. The south always had a different agenda than the north right from the beginning.
Sometimes it seems our entire history as a nation has been built around appeasement to southern interest.

[bvar22]

21. self deleted.

[TriMetFan]

14. I agree.

Let them go. Any way they just suck up more of the welfare etc.... Just imagine how much more money we would have to spend on the children of the Blue states or anything else.

[zanne]

25. I was thinking about this very thing the other day...

I'm not saying that southerners are "sore losers" about the civil war; that would be way too simple and childish. But still, I'm sure there is a bit of resentment that's been passed down through the generations. It has to hurt a little; not that slavery was abolished, but that they lost. Nobody wants to lose. Then, I think of all the western states that are red, too. I do think that it's cultural. Somebody from Montana thinks differently than someone from NH, right? This is the point where I hit a wall. I'm glad I can come to DU and think "out loud" like this.

[bunkerbuster1]

29. I would say it, and I live here.

they certainly are sore losers. they certainly do hand down resentment over the generations. they continue to be in denial, and grasp at whatever straws they can find to lend some semblance of legitimacy to their rebellion.

Many Southerners have faced facts, and recognize that their cause was NOT just. Many Northerners have moved in and diluted the water, so to speak, in that they just don't want to hear about the stupid war any more. But there's plenty of Southerners who'll cling to their stupid pretend-republic of 1861-1865 and whitewash their history to their last dying day.

And they can't kick off soon enough to suit me.

[mpyle27]

37. I am with ya there!

If at first you don't secede, try again. They won't have to try, just ask and it will be granted. Either that or Jesus will be back to take them away.

[sui generis]

6. well for starters, the "other side"

has openly declared this a cultural war. They have painted themselves as oppressed by taxes and corporate regulation and a thousand other straw men arguments, and they've gotten stupid sheep in trailer parks to back them based on issues they believe they comprehend: the clear moral certitude of bashing evil gay-married terrorists that are hiding under every rock and want special rights, of murdering mothers chopping babies out of their wombs with fire axes and of anybody who isn't white, uptight, and in church every night being a terrorist or a pinko commie fag America hater.

They are mentally ill, or perhaps, as illness can be cured, they are more accurately mentally defective.

It is a war, and they are winning by changing the rules in their favor. We are deregulating monopolistic industries and selling pollution credits (but not clean air) and tossing decades of scientific study out the window because it doesn't fit with the economic policies of this administration. We have black box voting that is virtually guaranteed to keep republicans in power in a one party system forever, and we have no effective means of fighting it.

And as non-corporate entities ourselves, we exist to be harvested by credit card companies for usurous interest rates, by credit and bankruptcy laws that only favor the creditor, by pharmaceutical companies lobbying to keep the price of medicine as high as possible and foreign medicine illegal, by astronomical medical bills for the slightest medical procedure or test, and by the gas pump and the electric company and the phone company and even your local colleges and universities and the department of education.

It's not going to change until enough people are completely and totally oppressed to landslide back the other way in spite of all black box tampering. It's not going to change until enough unemployed people get together and do a million family march on Washington and demand an end to sending our jobs overseas, to monstrous trade deficits, demand accurate voting, and demand an end to this tyranny of the corporate lobby.

:rant:

[BillyDoc]

20. But there is a way to carry the fight to the Fascists right now

Damn near all of our problems stem from corporate control of our media and our politicians. We can, at least, do something about the latter, and maybe then they will do something about the former.

Specifically, our corporations control our politicians with money. They bribe them with their "campaign contributions." If you are willing to put in a little work, this problem can be fixed. Go here to find out how: http://breakthelink.org

We have already started in Florida, and we could sure use some help.

[loudsue]

46. "White, uptight, and in church every night".....ROFL...so it is!

:kick:

[AngryAmish]

7. We must cleanse our nation of their influence

When the Right is so irredeemably evil, we have to fight back.

[Save The World]

32. How?

n/t

[Bellamia]

8. I couldn't agree more........

Recommended

[G_j]

10. slight disagreement here

"When the "other party" is responsible for attacking an innocent country half way across the world and killing hundreds of thousands of their people, along with killing and maiming thousands of its own young people in the name of oil, they (the "other party") are not on OUR side."

> both parties share responsibility here

[carnie_sf]

12. You're right

and it's not the entire south that's the enemy, but rich southerners. They are the ones that initially owned slaves, they were the reason we had all those silly bits in the constitution, they were the ones who wanted to preserve "our way of life" in 1860, and we can see the same mentality and, incidentally some of the same families int the headlong advancement of corporate interests over the interests of working people. And both parties bear responsibility.

[grytpype]

13. "both parties..." yes, but...

Yes, the Democratic Party had a lot of segregationists in it at one time, but then the Dems took the right side in the civil rights struggle, and the Repugs opportunistically took the wrong side.

The result is, now, the Repugs are the party of the Confederacy.

[readmoreoften]

41. Nah, poor racist homophobes that vote for Bush are also my enemies. n/t

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

11. Here's the difference

They think they could have the boys back by Christmas if they took us on. They have a fantasy that the half of America they don't like is a bunch of limp-wristed French pansies that they can roll over like so much Polish cavalry. They want a civil war for the same reason they wanted the Iraq War, because they think they can win.

We, on the other hand, have a realistic view of what a second civil war would look like. Multiple factions, famine and plague, most of the people we know and love dead, everything we've ever worked for ruined. Our view is correct. The America that met with Imperial Japan was NOT a militaristic country, but the most LIBERAL America that ever was. It rose up, beat the shit out of the fascist Japanese, and even helped Stalin lick Hitler as well.

Spiritually, I am ready to meet "them" in the field. I wouldn't have followed the stars and stripes to any war since 1945, but I'm willing to fight for MY country. If it comes down to it we WILL win because we are right and they, when push comes to shove, are few.

Yet we hope it never happens, and they, the sure losers, Nazis that they are, say "Bring it on."

[Kerrytravelers]

15. A cold civil war. Exactly. Kcik and nominated. Well done.

[Fovea]

16. Sitzskrieg

The pre war positioning for show on the Maginot line created a diversion for the Nazi army to roll through the Benelux.

We are in the sitzkrieg of the second civil war.
The shooting may start this year, or the next.
But the good news is that the fair weather republicans
are edging away from the holy warriors' sturm and drang.

The question is will the first blood be strategic or spontaneous?

[grytpype]

17. I don't know if the CCW is going to turn hot...

The Confederates are trying to destroy our constitutional system of government, which forces them to share power with representatives of the North, and which has a professional independent judiciary.

The system they want is one-party autocratic rule, with no checks and balances.

They are so close to success at this point that I don't see any need to start shooting.

They used our democratic processes to take power, and once in power they will destroy democracy, just like the Nazis came to power in Germany.

[grytpype]

18. I didn't mean to be such a downer...

... if we can get fair elections, we can beat the Confederates.

The Repugs are in huge trouble in '06 thanks to the misleadership of their Head Retard, Duhbya. If the North takes the Senate back, that is a pretty good position.

[northernsoul]

22. if it heats up, it'll be like Northern Ireland during "the troubles"

There may not be a very clear geographical demarcation like north vs. south. I think if things turn violent, it'll be along the lines of assasinations and bombings rather than armies meeting eachother on fields of battle. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it's no longer impossible.

[bunkerbuster1]

30. I sadly agree.

And RWers are sadly mistaken if they believe that progressives are all pacifists who'll sit by idly and merely form committees to condemn acts of violence in the future.

God knows I don't want this to blow up, but every damn day I read some new outrage in the news, and I just wonder how much worse it'll get before it gets better.

[Sabriel]

19. I never thought of it that way, but now that you bring it up....

YES! Except this time it's being fought in the courts and in the media, rather than physically.

[PATRICK]

23. What they gave up

once they decided to phalanx against America with a crazed minority. they gave up all pretense to reach out to the majority except through lies and fear and destroying the ability of the MAJORITY to control their own destiny or nation.

They gave that up with the extra kick of the "chosen few" religious and neocon zealots whose elitism is insanely radical. They, remember are the mainly the people of greed and influence seeking to become permanent aristocracy and supreme in all things material. Or homespun pinched souls pretending to be rugged individualists to cover their brand of self-interest over the common welfare.

They gave that up when cheating became the only way- even with lies and money unlimited- they could win and sleep at nights. They gave up America for the same old human power grab game since the first autocrat took control of the cave fire.

But don't get started on the Democrats who want to sentimentally share the myths, the lumps in the throat, the discredited Walrus and Carpenter shams of a cannibalistic occupation of our lost civil government. At some point each politician protects his own craft clan against the demos storming the doors.

[G_j]

24. bankruptcy & class action bills

make it look somewhat like the Congress vs. the people.
--just sayin'

war on (some) drugs:
war against the poor mostly
don't see many Dems in that fight either

point?
defining the divide by party doesn't always work

[leftofthedial]

26. we are in a Cold Civil War

We have been since Viet Nam, but only one side (the RW) was aware of it until recently

[mpyle27]

40. Exactly!

I have heard descriptions of this phenomena, pertaining to the Left, and it is quite accurate and convincing. I am from a family who is in-line with the current 'goings on' of the Right. This has been going on since Kennedy/Civil Rights/Vietnam/Nixon. I am very fearful that the Right is in better position than the Left - pertaining to any armed conflict. Well, I am just planning ahead and I hope the Left eases on gun issues. It wouldn't hurt to practice at a range once a month. I'm not a violent person but.....you know.

[porkrind]

54. good point

[AuntiBush]

27. Kicked - Recommend, but the other side are RADICAL

And extremists, w/$$$$$$$$$$ behind them. WTF are we suppose to do now?

Push us around... local college male student has been doing just that. Teacher will not help, says it's "good to vent out there regarding personal, in the news, religious agenda!" I'm out of their this semester, heading back to original college w/my Deans List remains.

To quote this guy... "We are a Super-Power!" "And that gives me every right to act as such, to-wards your kind... assumability a Democrat!" He went on to spin violent remarks at me, and this is in emails.

They other side created this "Cultural Civil War." And it's the OTHER SIDE, like FRIST and the likes URGING them on from PULPITS at that. Who's to blame: BUSH ROVE CHENEY. They should be stopping this, rather it's all part of their plan. A plan none of us seen coming, nor expected rightfully.

Sick... how does one "never give-up," what one assumes one never lost, nor seen coming.

[shance]

28. Seems to me there are those trying to promote division by isolating

and labeling people into groups that perpetuates an illusion of division.

There are extremists of course, which the corporate bought media promotes and gives an inoordinate amount of coverage and time to. Just like the extremists Republicans that are wreaking havoc on the Constitution and our government at large. They are being given much more play than the rational voices Americans need to hear.

You certainly don't see coverage of the millions of true mainstream Americans who are creating unity, building bridges with other Americans and promoting true patriotism and a more 'harmonic' convergence.

I think its being manufactured and created by television and radio than certainly by American citizens. And it is being instigated by instilling fear and isolation in otherwise pretty trusting individuals.

The biggest remedy is to get to know others in our communities and building relationships in our neighborhoods to break the isolation and 'division' that can be addressed when we turn off the televisions and turn to connecting more with others in our communities.

[Ready4Change]

31. To say so is to dillute the meaning of "War."

We are far from being at war, at least concerning American warring against American. I refuse to allow that terminology to be used in vain or ignorance.

It will be a sad, bloody day should that term ever separate US citizens from each other again.

[mpyle27]

42. I disagree.

I've heard many rumblings about (I'm a blue dot in a red state). Prepare, prepare, prepare for the worst but may it NEVER happen. May I ask, are you acquainted with Bush-like repubs?

[gogo69]

34. chill !!

We are not in a cold civil war. Keep in mind that the current administration knows full well how to exploit the cultural differences that exist for their own advantage.

Do not feed this exploitation. The only thing it does is give the administration more power and control. Can you imagine the power grab if we actually were in a full outright civil war?? I think that the Patriot Act would look like the Bill of Rights compared to the liberties curtailed in the event of civil war.

We certainly may be in the midst of a cold rebellion, but the us and them should not be north and south or red and blue. It is the people and citizens of this country verse the corruption inherent in our government and large corporations.

Do not cause more division among people than already exists. Fight your heart's out to expose the problems and UNIFY the people to rise against.

-Steve G

[mtnsnake]

38. No can do. This isn't some Sunday School picnic we're involved in

where we have two parties that can work out minor differences together because we're so warm and cuddly with each other.

The Democrats/Liberals have done everything under the sun to work things out...to make things work...to do what's RIGHT for the ENTIRE country...to stop the killing...to preserve our natural resources...to help the common American...and all we've gotten for our troubles is venomous lies and hatred spewed in our faces by the WRONG RIGHT.

Look around. It's not just as simple as the 'people and citizens of this country versus the government and corporations'. The hatred is being generated by the right wing on a daily basis and it's coming at us from all angles for days, months, and years in a row now.

I don't know if we're in a cold civil war or not...that's why I asked the question. But I suspect we are. I also believe this country will never go through an all-out civil war again with any bloodshed, although with this lamebrain running the show, anything's possible.

That's why we have to stand our ground and never give in if we want to get our country back in a civil way. It's our country just as much as it is theirs.

[mpyle27]

43. Are you familiar with heartland repubs?

Or do you get your perception through the television and newspaper? I do agree with you on most things but this is a new kind of republican we are dealing with. He's not Reagan, Bush Sr. or even Nixon. If this is the best the republicans can do for a president, then we are indeed heading down a road that is quite scary. All I am saying is, prepare!

[mtnsnake]

44. I agree we need to prepare but not with arms. Our brains will do just fine

as long as we stick together, keep fighting the good fight, and prohibit them from pushing us around. We'll be just fine in the end, but we have to continue working to spread the good word, and I don't mean from any one book.

Never give up..

[readmoreoften]

49. How is going to get better with reasoning and persuasion?

I'm just wondering how you're thinking this is going to happen. Folks dumb enough to buy this lemon may be dumb enough to think they can made lemonade. I hope your right.

[mtnsnake]

57. It's already happening.

As long as we continue to discuss it among ourselves, and as long as we have faith in what we stand for, it's inevitable that we'll eventually come out of this on top. Our problem right now is getting our message out there to Joe American in layman's terms. Once we perfect our communication skills with mainstream America, you can bet your bottom dollar that the tide will turn.

[mpyle27]

67. I like your positive outlook!

However, I am curious...what is your experience in dealing with the Jesus people? Communication skills huh? Well, let me lay out a certain passage from a book entitled "A Language Older Than Words" by Derrick Jensen. I can not quote so I will be paraphrasing. In it, the author recalls a conversation with a priest in which they discussed the possibility of other life in the universe. The priest said that he would be overjoyed to be visited by an alien species so he could tell them about the saving power of Jesus. Just like we did to the authentic Americans (manifest destiny). Also, the Earth is 10,000 years old. God said it, I believe it, That settles it!!


No reason, no logic!!


So while I do admire your faith in the ability to express the real values of the "not-republican" party, I just don't have any interest in talking to the Jesus people about economics, global warming, AIDS in Africa, biology, chemistry, anthropology, physics, why the environment is important to our existence, literature, statistics, etc. This is because....they are anti-intellectual and terribly boring people.

I apologize for the bitterness. I'm starting to feel like Debbie Downer (SNL). Also, when I say Jesus people, I am not referring to Christians. I am referring to christians - with a small 'c'. Thanks for letting me rant. Long live the Underground!! Peace be with you all.

[readmoreoften]

45. I'm at war, hell yeah.

I think that the blue and the red are equal in terms of power. If we weren't it would definitely get physical. Actually, THEY would get physical and we would be forced to defend ourselves. Unfortunately, we are more reasonable so we would just sanction them.

[Lexingtonian]

47. It started in 1990 or so

to me. I've had a long look at it, and there is (to me) a remarkable parallelism between the psychological/political warfare of the two sides since 1988 or 1990 and the actual fighting and circumstances of the Civil War. Individual years of the Civil War will match up to roughly four year length stretches of the past 15-plus years. Individual generals and major players of the Civil War even (allowing some license) resemble some contemporary politicians of the present.

The Republican Party essentially resembles the Confederacy at that time, too. People really have little idea these days of how greatly the South was propagandized by its media, how little the politicians and generals of that side thought of their troops as individuals and cannon fodder, and that the aims of the Confederacy are identical with those of the Nixon-defined Republican Party. Empire/expansionism, an extreme social caste system designed only to benefit the rich/powerful i.e. aristocracy, a politics of hatred toward "outsiders" to unify the oppressed classes, religious sanction of it all/extreme theism, a morality all hypocrisy and deference to power rather than justice, Messianism and racism, an idea that barbarity and violence is indispensible to "civilization", and political hypocrisy on and dysfunctionality of "states' rights". (For example, the Confederacy made secession from the CSA illegal while its own secession from the USA was deemed legal- Missouri Confederates tried to found a Northwest Confederacy.) States' Rights is famously a cover for allowing the ruling classes to rule as injustly as the ruled and partitioned will bear.

I like to think (imagine?) we are the point resembling January 1865. George W. Bush is the John Bell Hood figure, Rehnquist roughly (though not quite) the Jefferson Davis figure, and the Senate filibuster business is the siege of Petersburg- which the Confederacy tried to break in late January 1865 via its ironclads. Tom DeLay is the Jubal Early. Bill Clinton is the Grant, John Kerry the Sherman, Nancy Pelosi the Sheridan at this point....

[Disturbed]

48. Cold Civil War?

YES!

It has been thus since the 60s. The Corporatists aka Fascists along with the Fundies have gained ground and are closing in on dominating Amerika.

The Dem Party has been complicit. If we have any chance then the state and local levels must be taken back. The Dem Pary seems to finally realize that appeasment gains nothing because the Bush Junta is in an winner takes all mode.

It does seem that Middle Amerika is starting to get a clue that the Bush Junta is Fascist and cares zero for the Middle Class, the Working Poor and the Poor. I believe that '06 may be the turning point unless there is another terroist attack in Amerika. If that happens all bets are off.

[smiley_glad_hands]

50. Conservatives have been saying it for almost 50 years now.

Hell, some still haven't given up since the last one.

[SunDrop23]

51. The war is Progressive (us) vs. Fucked Up (Them)

[FourStarDemocrat]

52. I wouldn't say that we're at civil war yet... but I worry where this

government is leading to... In some years to come with enough of our civil rights taken away...if free elections are forver lost because of electronic voting scams.. if corporations become even more powerful than they are now--and with more and more people becoming destitute as the bridge between the haves and the have nots divides further, I can definitely see factions growing more defined, and some sort of outright fighting in the streets to attempt to take this country back.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlowDownFast]

56. This is a philosophical and/or religious/spiritual question...

"I really agree the left has to turn pro-gun. These anti-gun nuts are absolutely living in a candy-coated reality unaware of how the authoritarian side thinks, they do not realize what is going down, and are going to cause a genocide if they get their way. The left is lucky to have the inner city gangs on our side, they are the only reason the right fears us if a civil war were to break out."



How does one respond under oppresive (maybe violent), iron-fisted tyranny?

Two roads diverge...

Are you a pacifist? Even while 'they' are enslaving and/or executing your family and friends?

Or are you willing to take up arms as a means to defend and protect yourself, your family and your ideals?

[Mondon]

58. uh....no.

This sort of hysterical moonbatism is not helpful to the cause, IMHO.

[mtnsnake]

60. You're entitled to your opinion

However, recognizing what's going on around us, knowing what our identity is, and discussing how we must stick together...well, they ARE all helpful to the cause.

There's no hysteria. There is not an outcry to get all up in arms. We just need to stay on our toes. It's called being aware.

[Mondon]

63. OK

Good reply--I agree with everything in it.

[torque]

59. Those of you who don't understand this civil rights conflict...

The acceleration... The systematic stripping of our civil rights. Come back in a month, at the end of May 2005 and answer this question again. Then again the end of June, then July.

Hold on to your hats fellas, the May-laise you are about to experience will be nothing compared to the years ahead. At some point we will all be convinced that 2005 was indeed the tipping point; the beginning of Civil War. The neo-cons are ramming it down our throats daily, we are just 280 million victims along for the ride.

A little uncomfortable? Then keep making noise. In denial? Then crawl back into your hut until they bust down your door.

[solinvictus]

61. Military/Industrial/Corporate complex..

It's taken over and the control is nearly complete.

[torque]

62. Yes, inciting fear through "the war on terror" is the tool.

Two stolen elections enabled the PNAC plan to be carried out. However, http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/2005/04/high-ranking-officer-agrees-with-wp.html">not everyone is fooled.