Using the Book of Revelation to sow Hate and Division...

[bloom]

I know others have referred to the "Dominionists" - the Yurika report and all that - but after hearing talk about it yesterday on Democracy Now!- it finally clicked for me - that this is the place from which my brother's neighbor spoke.

Someone tried to ask him - "what about loving your neighbor" and his response was "the unsaved are dead already". And he further justified violence towards the "unsaved" by some Revelation reference about Jesus "loving" through the use of a sword.

I suspected that he was getting these ideas from his church - could have been right-wing radio stations - I don't know. Seeing these messages about Cheney and people of "Other" religions, the people getting kicked out of their church in North Carolina, and "Justice Sunday" just makes me wonder where it's all going.

Anybody else hearing this sort of stuff from neighbors, etc.?

It's a political movement.

If you look at the ideology that pervades this movement, and the term we use for it is dominionism, it comes from Genesis, where the sort of founders of this movement, Rousas Rushdoony and others, talk about how God gave man -- this is a very patriarchal movement -- dominion over the land. And dominionists believe that they have been tasked by God to create the Christian society through violence, I would add. Violence, the aesthetic of violence is a very powerful component within this movement. The ideology, when you parse it down and look what it's made up of, is essentially an ideology of exclusion and of hatred. It is a totalitarian ideology. It is not religious in any way. These people quote, as they did at this convention, selectively and with gross distortions from the Gospels. You cannot read the four Gospels and walk away and tell me that Jesus was not a pacifist. I'm not a pacifist, but Jesus clearly was. They draw from the Book of Revelations the only time in the Bible, and that's a very questionable book, as Biblical scholars have pointed out for centuries, the only time when you can argue that Jesus endorsed violence and the apocalyptic visions of Paul. And they do this to create an avenging Christ.

They have built a vision of America that is radically -- and a vision of this -- and latched onto a religious movement or awakening that is radically different from previous awakenings, and there have been several throughout American history. In all religious revivals, Christian religious revivals in American history, the pull was to get believers to remove themselves from the contaminants of secular society. This one is very, very different. It is about taking control of secular society. And, of course, I think, as you and others have done such a good job of pointing out, they have built this dangerous alliance with the neoconservatives to essentially create across denominational lines. And we saw this at the convention with the, you know, radical Catholics with -- even there were even people from the Salvation Army; they have recently begun reaching out to the Mormons -- a kind of united front. Those doctrinal differences are still there and still stock, but a front to create what they term a “Christian America.”

And this is an America where people like you and me have no place. And you don't have to take my word for it, turn on Christian broadcasting, listen to Christian radio. Listen to what they say about people like us. It's not a matter that we have an opinion they disagree with. It's not a matter of them de-legitimizing us, which they are. It's a matter of them demonizing us, of talking us -- describing us as militant secular humanists, moral relativists, both of which terms I would not use to describe myself, as a kind of counter-militant ideology that is anti-Christian and that essentially propelled by Satan that they must destroy. Listen to their own language. You know, when in “Justice Sunday,” listen -- you know, I urge everyone to go back and look closely at what James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, said. He talked about Roe v. Wade causing the biggest holocaust in the 20th century. There is a frightening kind of revisionism and a kind of moral equation of a magnitude that, you know, having lived through disintegrating states in Yugoslavia and other places, essentially divides -- destroys the center, divides the American public, and creates a very dangerous and frightening culture war. And that's what these people are about. <more>

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/05/1429230

[opihimoimoi]

1. In 2 words, CONTROL FREAKS

[grace0418]

20. "FREAKS" definitely being the operative word...n/p

[true_notes]

2. The Xians will continue this

Take a look at the root word of Revelations (Revel). To revel means The act of revealing or disclosing. The Xians believe that these things in the bible will happen without any kind of catalyst (I'm speaking of the Fundy Xians). Any man or woman with common knowledge of the world realizes that, in fact, the Xians are pushing their own agenda to use Revelations as a turning factor in the religion war, by using the book to place fear in people's hearts.

They will continue to turn people against each other with this book to gather bodies for their agenda, until they realize they are going 2 steps forward and 3 steps back, just as they have been doing for 2 millenia.

[bloom]

6. I watched the Discover channel's show about Revelations

which was mostly of the POV that Revelation was written to encourage Christians at the time to not slip and slide over to a "pagan" or a secular persuasion - to not side with the Romans, for instance.

And the show mentioned - that the book may have been successful at that - considering how Christianity grew.


A couple decades ago - it seemed the Book of Revelation was mostly ignored. Now there's a mini-series, the Tim LaHaye books and I don't know what all. It's quite a trend.

It's the violent aspect of the new revival that gets me.

[NAO]

3. Wow! Dominionism on Democracy Now! I've been beating the Dominionism...

drum relentlessly ever since I encountered Katherine Yurica's "The Despoiling of America" in the spring of 2004.

I think the American public grossly underestimates the power of this movement and the tenacity with which they are pursuing their agenda.

If anyone has not read "Despoiling", I highly recommend it. And if you have not read it in the last six months, it's worth a re-read. "Despoiling" was written in February 2004, and included a desperate warning that the next stage in the Dominionist coup was to seize control of the Judiciary. Events have played out exactly as outlined in "Despoiling", which draws extensively on transcripts of Pat Robertson's 700 Club from the 1980s. They have been planning this stuff for 25 years.

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

[bloom]

10. Thanks for (re)posting that.

I'll be paying more attention now. :hi:


"As Antonin Scalia, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court explained a few months later, the Bible teaches and Christians believe “… that government …derives its moral authority from God. Government is the ‘minister of God’ with powers to ‘revenge,’ to ‘execute wrath,’ including even wrath by the sword…”<3>

<snip>

This article is the documented story of how a political religious movement called Dominionism gained control of the Republican Party, then took over Congress, then took over the White House, and now is sealing the conversion of America to a theocracy by taking over the American Judiciary.  It’s the story of why and how “the wrath of God Almighty” will be unleashed against the middle class, against the poor, and against the elderly and sick of this nation by George W. Bush and his army of Republican Dominionist “rulers.”

[seabeyond]

4. this town united against hate

new bumpersticker i put on car today. dems being dissed everywhere by "christians. cheney saying we are "other faith". this church kicking out dems

i pick upniece from christian school everyday. i put this sticker on car for them

along with diversity is our strength
during was dissent is ultimate in patriotism
adn one other sticker about power of love of love of power

[bloom]

14. Bloomington, Indiana

had a "united against hate" campaign following the disciple of Matthew Hales murder of a Korean student - complete with yard signs.

It's good to have peaceful strength through numbers.

[LynneSin]

5. Don't forget Leviticus - they use that too

:D

[geniph]

19. Yeah, the bits they cherry-pick

Conveniently, they ignore anything in Leviticus that either: a) doesn't fit with their preconceived notions, or b) is just too much work.

As a minister friend of mine commented a few years ago, if we all followed everything in Leviticus to the letter, we'd have to put pretty much everyone to death.

People who cherry-pick from the Old Testament, especially bits and pieces from Leviticus, really need to read their Gospel and get some understanding of what's meant by the New Covenant as opposed to the Old Covenant.

[bloom]

21. Definately cherry-picking the violence-rationalizing parts...

The yurika report mentions some of the inspiration of the Old Testament. I've noticed MSM people getting it mixed up - thinking an "eye for an eye" had something to do with what Jesus would do.

This is a scary passage for the Dominionists to take as a mandate or something:


This is how Romans 13 reads in the New English Version:

“Every person must submit to the supreme authorities. There is no authority but by act of God, and the existing authorities are instituted by him; consequently anyone who rebels against authority is resisting a divine institution, and those who so resist have themselves to thank for the punishment they will receive. For government, a terror to crime, has no terrors for good behaviour. You wish to have no fear of the authorities? Then continue to do right and you will have their approval, for they are God’s agents working for your good. But if you are doing wrong, then you will have cause to fear them; it is not for nothing that they hold the power of the sword, for they are God’s agents of punishment, for retribution on the offender. That is why you are obliged to submit. It is an obligation imposed not merely by fear of retribution but by conscience. That is also why you pay taxes. The authorities are in God’s service and to these duties they devote their energies.”

[bloom]

22. Scalia... ( Romans 13) Democracy... creates problems...

"Scalia himself appears to be a Dominionist, for he believes that Romans 13 represents the correct view— that government authority is derived from God and not from the people; he asserts his view was the consensus of Western thought until recent times. Like Pat Robertson, he laments that the biblical perspective was upset by “the emergence of democracy.”<57> Taking his cue from Leo Strauss, Scalia argued, a democratic government, being seen as “nothing more than the composite will of its individual citizens, has no more moral power or authority than they do as individuals...” Democracy, according to Scalia, creates problems: It can foster civil disobedience.<58>"

[bloom]

32. ... and Deuteronomy 28

"How did the Dominionists get so far from the Lord’s edict to help the poor, the sick, and the elderly?"...

“God is sovereign over the poor. He raises them up—not all of them, but some of them. ‘The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.’”<64>

<snip>
A conclusion drawn by the scripture itself is that a nation who follows the commandments or laws of God will be “high above all nations of the earth…and all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of thee.” On the other hand, the Dominionists believe those who are poor, sick, and weak are so situated because God’s wrath has been visited upon them—they are the “wicked” of this earth and they deserve the wrath of God because their behavior is bringing the entire nation under condemnation.

The litany of the curses of God on those who do not keep his laws and commandments are among the most horrendous descriptions of torture in literature. Here is a sample from Deuteronomy 28:

“The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies…thy carcass shall be food unto all fowls of the air…The Lord will smite thee with …and with …tumors, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The Lord shall smite thee with madness and blindness and astonishment of heart ; thou shalt grope at noonday; thou shalt not prosper in thy ways; and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore…thou shalt betroth a wife and another man shall lie with her; thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein, and thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof; thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face and shall not be restored to thee; they sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them. Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand. The fruit of thy land, and all thy labors, shall a nation whom thou knowest not eat up, and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed always…”

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

[gratuitous]

7. It's the myth of redemptive violence

And it's totally contradicted by Jesus. Walter Wink in his excellent trilogy on the Powers and Dale Brown in his little book "Biblical Pacifism" treat the subject extensively.

I think the reason the Dominionists screw up a message of justice, love and peace so thoroughly is because they've allowed their own prejudices to cloud their thinking and judgment. Jesus said over and over that enemies are to be loved and prayed for. Now, there are many forms that love can take, but I'm pretty sure that killing your enemies and rejoicing over their broken bodies isn't quite what Jesus meant.

[Helga Scow Stern]

8. This is very frightening...

it has genocide as a likely outcome.

It's fascinating how "African Americans are used to do the dirty work":

It's interesting that the people -- the attack dogs they send out are usually African Americans, those few African American people -- in this case it was a Reverend Glenn Plummer, who as a church in Detroit, and the filth that spewed out of his mouth against Muslims was really, to me, and I was sitting at the breakfast, startling and shocking. He -- the African Americans that -- I would also like to add that of the 5,000 people there, there were very few people of color and most of them were seated up on the podium. After attacking Muslims what they do, of course, is then turn on the Civil Rights Movement and turn on progressive African American leaders, such as Jesse Jackson. So, they do the dirty work for this movement, which, I think we have to be very clear, comes out of the segregationist movement of the South, and if you look at the bloodlines of the movement, you know, the -- in terms of the people who eventually formed what we now know as the Christian Right, they come out of the John Birch Society, the World Anti-Communist League, right back to the Ku Klux Klan. This is a movement that at its core embraces racism, a terrible degree of racism, which – and, of course, the Christian schools themselves, Falwell School and others, were founded at the time of integration as a way to oppose integration and keep white children free from going to school with African Americans and other people of color.

[Helga Scow Stern]

9. Nominated to spread awareness of this very pressing threat.

[realFedUp]

11. It takes people of faith to stand up to the Christian Taliban

The strongest voices to battle these ideas
are other people of faith, who are guided
by Jesus's words and deeds, not the Revelations.

[bloom]

12. PEACEFUL protests/ counter measures would be the most helpful.

As much as people tend to want to go off when they hear of outrageous acts like the Waynesville Church - perceived aggressiveness would just fuel these people's ideas that we represent something to be overthrown.



"So successfully have the televangelists and churches inculcated the idea of the existence of an outside “enemy,” which is attacking Christianity, that millions of people have perceived themselves rightfully overthrowing an imaginary evil anti-Christian conspiratorial secular society."

From http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm



I thought it was great on Democracy Now! yesterday that that they were able to have on a different Baptist minister who had had a Social justice rally to counter the obnoxious Justice Sunday rally.

[realFedUp]

13. It would be good if other Baptist ministers spoke out about this

in the public.

[hootinholler]

28. Um, did you mean the TaliBornAgin? N/T

[bloom]

15. ... the aberrant extension of Calvinism...

"But the Dominionists needed the aberrant extension of Calvinism; they believe as did Calvin and John Knox that before the creation of the universe, all men were indeed predestined to be either among God’s elect or were unregenerate outcasts. And it is at this point Dominionists introduced a perversion to Calvinism—the same one James Hogg utilizes in his The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner—its technical name is “supralapsarianism.” It means essentially that the man called from before the foundation of the world to be one of the elect of God’s people, can do no wrong. No wonder then observers noted a definite religious swing in George W. Bush from Wesleyan theology to Calvinism early in his administration.<25>

How comforting the Calvinistic idea of a “justified sinner” is when one is utilizing Machiavellian techniques to gain political control of a state. It’s more than comforting; it is a required doctrine for “Christians” who believe they must use evil to bring about good. It justifies lying, murder, fraud and all other criminal acts without the fuss of having to deal with guilt feelings or to feel remorse for the lives lost through executions, military actions, or assassinations."

--------------------------------------

What a crazy idea - that people can do no wrong. Why B**h seems like (is?) a sociopath.

http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm

[bloom]

17. More craziness - fighting your way into heaven.

"As Robertson wrote approvingly in his book, The Secret Kingdom, the kingdom of heaven “suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.” He explained, “Zealous men force their way in. That’s what it means.”


This is so opposite of any religious idea I ever heard in a church.

[bloom]

16. Michael A. Ledeen - know your neo-cons

"...the only full-time international affairs analyst consulted by Karl Rove. Ledeen has regular conversations with Rove..."

"Michael A. Ledeen was a Senior Fellow with the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a counselor to the National Security Council and special counselor to former Secretary of State, Alexander Haig in 1985. His relationship with Pat Robertson goes back at least to the early 1980’s. Like Robertson, Ledeen was an advocate for military intervention in Nicaragua and for assistance to the Contras. (Ledeen was also involved in the Iran-Contra affair.)

Today, in 2004, Michael Ledeen is a fellow at the conservative think tank, the American Enterprise Institute and according to William O. Beeman of the Pacific News Service, “Ledeen has become the driving philosophical force behind the neoconservative movement and the military actions it has spawned.”<29>

Ledeen made a number of appearances on the 700 Club show during the 1980’s. Always presented as a distinguished guest, Robertson interviewed him on April 30, 1985 and asked him on this occasion: “What would you recommend if you were going to advise the President as to foreign policy?”

Ledeen responded:

“The United States has to make clear to the world and above all to its own citizens, what our vital interests are. And then we must make it clear to everyone that we are prepared to fight and fight fiercely to defend those interests, so that people will not cross the lines that are likely to kick off a trip wire.”

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm
-----------------------

I'm really hating those conservative think tanks for legitimizing all this crap.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

24. I went to a gun show last weekend

Fully 1/4th of the cars in the parking lot sported "Choose Life" license tags.

There were more than a few nut jobs sporting "Saved 1", "Armed and Ready" tee-shirts and other Jebus gear...

http://www.ainttheycute.com/Christian-t-shirts/Shirts/Armed-&-Ready-T-shirt-Christian-T-shirts.htm

A lot of them brought their (subservient) wives and children...

Assault weapons are apparently now a part of the "Culture of Life"...

[Daphne08]

25. I hope these groups implode

and start turning on one another. (I wish to God they could see how the NeoCons have used them politically for the last twenty-five years.)

This could develop into a volatile situation! :scared:

I'm a Christian (the spiritual kind), but this modern-day Torquemada and these dangerous little inquisitors also should have learned the lessons that our 2000-year Christian history have taught the rest of us.

[salin]

26. Interesting take - and I think it fits with a great deal of rhetoric

that I have heard in recent times.

But it seems to open some doors for planting seeds of doubt per the anti-Christ position expressed. Did Christ himself set the example for writing folks off - re read the story of the Good Samaritan - where a "holy man" is cast as falling down in the eye of God for feeling too self-important to help the person in need. Indeed Jesus praises a "non-believer" for the behavior... reaching out to help that person in desperate need. In that parable the status of "believer" meant nothing if the behavior was not in accordance with the actions of Love that Jesus imparted.

Perhaps asking upon this line how the stated "belief" of a nonbeliever already being "dead" (and thus not worthy of any concern) jibes with Jesus's teachings. And perhaps asking how Jesus would view those who ignore his teachings - and only view him as an "idol" - something to worship in word - but not deed nor following his teachings - in a self-serving (and perhaps self-defeating?) effort to "go to heaven" - without having to take the hard lessons that Jesus taught, to heart.

My sister has attended a Methodist Church for years that has been growing more fundamentalist by the year. Several years ago I stated my frustration to her (tried to seperate it from her Church) of those who ignored much of Jesus's teachings - but thought a superficial "saving of souls" - again in a superficial way (viewing Jesus as an idol rather than a living example/teacher) - was spiritually offensive to me (she was "volunteering" at her church's request, at a Billy Graham event. She invited me. I said no, but offered to baby sit her young daughter. After the event we spoke - and for the first time I expressed my reservations. Did he about reaching out to attend to the needs of the most impoverished in the community (the core of the parables).. No, she said with discomfort... there was a single comment about reaching out to churches in poor areas - but in the several hour event there was nothing else said. Ah, I said. Please respect that what I drew from our Church classes growing up, is different than yours...

We left the conversation there. Though while she attends bible classes through her Church regularly... it is a little more clear (even to her) that my spiritual beliefs (deep) have led my professional decisions - including taking a path that pays less due to my convictions that because I can make a difference - that I should... Well, last week, for the first time ever - she casually mentioned that her church had become so fundamentalist that she didn't think that she could attend much longer. Finally. I have said very little over the years - and she has, thankfully, respected what I had to say, even when it didn't jibe with her church. Can't say that anything I have said has made a difference - but that finally she "sees" the discordance between what her church pushes (forget Jesus's teachings... but love Jesus and go to Heaven) - and how we were raised to believe in an American Baptist church that merged with a United Church of Christ - that focused on the social activism pushed by Jesus's teachings.

As things have gotten - very quickly - so visibly extreme ... the moves have pushed some folks who on the surface could agree (the religious right has gotten so good at packaging their agenda - that many folks respond on the surface, without thinking any more deeply.) Thankfully that has been true in my sister's case.

[kineneb]

27. justification by faith alone vs. good works

I think this comes into play here. Luther was right on many points of the corruption in the late medieval Church. But faith without good works is hollow and phony. That is where the Dominionists have gone off the deep end.

If one sticks to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus is hanging out with what was the dregs of society, and teaching them that they were just as worthy before God as the priests at the Temple. And the only violent action done by Jesus was to throw the money lenders and merchants out of the Temple. So these Calvinists-on-steroids need to re-attach their brains and read Matthew, Mark and Luke and stop reading Revelations. Otherwise they become the hypocrites Jesus railed against.

(oh, boy, what a little learning will do...and I am a Buddhist!)

[bloom]

29. When my children were little

we a attended a Methodist Church in a small town.

I checked out 2 or 3 similar denominations and the Methodist one - with the woman preacher - seemed the most liberal - and the one I was the most comfortable with. The way Methodists are, however - the preachers don't stay that long - they like to move them around and mix it up. So it wasn't long before she was gone and a different guy was in there.

He was a nice enough guy, but just kept getting more and more conservative in his preaching - to the point where I got fed up and quit going. (Found the Quaker meeting in another town.) I heard their next preacher was even MORE conservative/fundamentalist - and so it goes.

-------

I did email my brother after the exchange at his house with his neighbor. And I asked him - is this what he believes? And he said "no" that he believes people should love others and leave the question of salvation to God - but he did talk about judging others actions - as if he considers it a responsibility - and also about there being different ways to "love" others - some of which I would guess that I may not agree with.

[bloom]

30. P.S. ...on judging actions

Seems to me when it comes to judging actions - the thing we differ on is which actions we should be concerned about.

So they judge people... (esp. liberal people - if you're on their side - you get a pass)

....who get abortions or advocate for the right of choice.

....who are homosexual or who advocate for those who are.

....who live outside of their prescribed patriarchal boundaries - however that may be.

...I'm sure there is a lot more stuff.


Who/What do liberals judge?

...torturers

...those who start unjust wars (which might be all wars depending on ones POV)

...child molesters and violent criminals

...unethical corporatist

...etc.

---------------------------

The main difference is those people who want to judge what we would think of as individual concerns (and do who knows what as punishment - if they got their theocratic wish) - while liberals expect criminals - in or out of gov't/power - to be judged in court & go to jail.

[Horse with no Name]

31. Many Christians that I know and have known through the years

including myself, do NOT study Revelations. I never have and I never will. The only thing that I truly know to be true is that it is fully metaphoric and can be left to interpret in many ways.
It is very dark and has an evilness to it.
Most prefer to accentuate the loving and kindness in the Bible, not the horrors, which is the reason that while acknowledging the Old Testament, most Christians follow the New Testament and the love of Jesus, not the fear of God.

[bloom]

34. "What Leo Strauss & Michael Ledeen and the other dominionists really hate"

... is the loving Christian ethics that established FDR's New Deal. You see, the great success of Christian liberalism is that it threatens their greed and that’s what the fight is all about."


http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/MichaelLedeen.html



One of the consequences of the Dominionist movement is that it may turn away many liberal Christians - if the religion seems defined by them. Yet the liberal Christians may be in the best position to undo them.

[alcuno]

33. Cultist Christian ideology is a GIFT that needs to be used.

I believe that a major rift needs to be created between the right wing of the Catholic faith and the fundies. There is so much ammunition out there that can be used, it's amazing.